Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Curval on November 29, 2001, 12:53:00 PM
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What is the story with the bombers in this sim? I was in a bomber last night, as a gunner, 4 different times. We flew for 10-15 minutes each flight to bomb enemy bases only to be shot down each time in "one pass". One time it was a head-on shot! Even with cannons and guns both blazing I would have thought that the law of averages would state that one pass would not be enough to shoot a bomber down on four different engagements? I only had time to fire one burst of fire from my guns all 4 times.
Obviously I am a newbie and need some gunning practice....but the bombers in AH seem to be pretty frail. Is this a fair assessment?
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Originally posted by Curval:
...but the bombers in AH seem to be pretty frail. Is this a fair assessment?
Yes, I often think so too. They seem to damage extremely easily...
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Bombers have adjusted strength as balance, notice how a Lanc takes more hits than a B17? that's cause the Lanc has crappy guns so they give it better armor to make it more fair. Try a B-26 it's harder to hit and it's a little better armored. I think it's a smart decision, plus most people in the MA have a cannon Fetish and fly planes with 2-4 cannons. Hell I fly the FW-190 all the time and i'd be shocked if the 4 20MMs didn't kill a buff in 1 second of firing. Plus head ons are deadly against b17s you both have limited time to fire and usually the aggresor has a better armorment than your forward guns.
Sometimes flying in formation or with escort helps a lot.
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Remember, that if you kill the pilot, the plane explodes. I have been in a bomber more than once where a good fighter pilot does a head-on and aims for the cockpit. They know that one headshot brings down the whole plane.
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Yea i gotta agree, they could beef it up a little. Theres a few AC(other than bombers) that i can think of that had tremendously strong armor that really dont seem to live up to that in the MA.
I must say, any post asking to improve buffs is going to be a 60+ flame fest post in the end. Isnt that true for just about any post though? :)
[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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another thing to consider is the reason one kill passes are common.
the buff guns in this game are killers and they're adjusted hi to compensate and level the field since they are all manned by one guy.
if i want to kill a buff i have to get my 3 cannons (on bf109 or 1 30mm if i take that loadout) to within 150-350yds while going 450+ mph at a high angle of attack.
this means the hits are going to be way close way accurate and probably only take one pass.
if the buff guns werent so strong you'd see hits from further away etc because people would be willing to make less deadly attacks...on my attacks i can get 100 20mm rds or more into the buff at a concentrated spot - i mean that oughta do it in reality too...
just a thought.
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Yea...I did notice that on at least two of the occasions the pilot of the fighters didn't open up until very close. Those attacks were made from above and behind. The front pass kill was an La5, which I know has pretty devastating cannons (at least it did in AW), and a faceful of those rounds could ruin a buff pilots day!
Still, I am reluctant to gun, let alone pilot, a buff now. I think I will stick to my D9 or Spit IX....depending on my mood.
By the way....did the Spitfires really have that horrible speed indicator? It took me a while to even figure out that that is what it was....200mph is represented as 20 which is probably a space saving measure. Also, I assume the red line indicates true airspeed, while the black is indicated speed...am I right?
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a few weeks ago i was in a buff and was attacked from the rear. He got 2 pings and my plane exploded.....humm....
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Yes, red is TAS and black is IAS.
A buffs real defense is altitude. If you're only flying for 10 or 15 minutes before you're attacked, you're gonna be low enough to be easy meat for fighters. At 20-25K, many fighters are above their best performance altitude, and won't have the speed or maneuverability for their best attack profile. (Of course, SOME fighters are just warming up at 25K.) ;)
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Popeye...good point. But some planes are very capable at 25k though, as you also point out.
In AW we used to load up a B-17 with gunners and not take any bombs....Death Stars (as we refered to them)would then cruise around waiting for fighters to attack them, or actively seek out fighters to get them to engage. Is this done at all in AH?
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If you could have more than one gunner it would be.
but it still happens, and they are normaly frowned apon.
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i do that but by myself.
I would love to do that with a bunch of people.
I take up a buff just to shoot down enemys.
I earned most of my bomber perkies that way. :D
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So - you can only have one gunner in AH!
See, this is what is so great about the forums....you pick up info just by posting!
:)
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It is generally known that 3~10 rounds of 30mms knock out buffs. 10~20 rounds or so with 20mms, and numerous more with plain 7.7~13mm machine guns.
The one pass kills are mostly about pilots skill, where the guy drops down from above with very high speed, landing most of his shots on a concentrated area.
If the historical buff durability limit of 3~10 rounds 30mms, 10~20 rounds for 20mms are accurately portrayed in AH, a 190A8 armed with 30mms and 20mms needs just two seconds of long burst shot on the target to kill a buff.
The attacker comes from above high speed, evades, and targets the wings for two seconds and down she goes.
It's not buffs are weak. It's just that lone buffs are THAT MUCH hopeless against fighters. Remember the arrogance of the USAAF Bomber Groups resulted in spectacular losses of buffs, and eventually the unescorted "flying fortress" idea was abandoned.
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Survivng in a buff is only possible with team work. You don't need a lot of help(unless you are entering a super furball area.. yuck). Just one or two guys who just swat off the flies landing on the cow's back dramatically increases survival. :)
Either that, or fly above 25k. Only Ta-152s, SpitXIs, 109G10s and P-47s, P-51s are potential threat up there. G10s are fragile, and armed too weak if they don't have 30mms. Ta-15s need about two pings to kill a buff, but you don't see them often. P-47s take forever to get up to 25k :D but if you see one, they are dangerous. SpitXIs are fragile too. The P-51s are usually the most dangerous. U see a lot of them near 28k.
[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
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Originally posted by Curval:
Obviously I am a newbie and need some gunning practice....but the bombers in AH seem to be pretty frail. Is this a fair assessment?
Yes it is, buffs *are* frail in this game.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
the buff guns in this game are killers and they're adjusted hi
And where did you get this information from?
You should read this recent thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012667 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012667)
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jpeg buffs are frail only at altitudes below 20k. Above that they eat any fighter for lunch.
I took a B17 to 27k once and got attacked by three enemy planes simultaneously: 152 and two 262..
Guess who won?
Needless to say I came home with a lot of perk points.
Buff performance at high altitude is by any means superior to fighters, it can outturn them at that alt and if fighter makes a high-speed pass in vertical, the buff usually can outrun them while they try to grab again unless the first shot was successful.
Lancaster is the only buff which has trouble killing fighters below 20k due to its horrible .303 guns and very low aft turret ammo load.
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Buffs are not frail.
If there is something to be fixed, it's not the durability. It's the "all-or-nothing" damage model that needs to be fixed. 30mm shots to the tail are gonna blow humongous chunks off and eventually cause the buff to crash, but it doesn't mean the whole rear section just snaps off and the plane is thrown off balance like we see currently in AH.
With better damage modelling we'll see something like this when 30mm shots are to the tail: chunks of tail section gone, and the Lanc noses down.... it begins with a shallow and slow dive at first, then the angle becomes steeper, and the Lanc wouldn't be able to nose up nor slow down and eventually airframe falls off and crash.
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But, anyway, buffs are not frail.
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Depends, as with other planes, on where you hit them.
Wingtip cannot take much damage.
Fuselage otoh can. Put over 5 30mm into the fuselage, and a good number of 20mm too. No damage to buff.
Some people are great buff hunters, and that's that.
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i was flying gunner for someone lastnight. HE was in a lanc, a boggie was on your 6 so i jumped into the rear gunner and started fireing at him. i made a few pings on him but he shot me up bad. I had 1032 rounds left but the gun would not work anymore?
Can the gun be damaged or the gunner dead? thats the only things i could come up with.
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Yes Chaos, guns can be knocked out.
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The key to buff killing is a Hi speed pass from above, if timed correctly you give your bullets a huge kinetic energy boost before they are even fired because of your hi rate of closure.
Attacks like this make 6 x 50's deadly in one pass from above, as long as you can concentrate your fire at 1 target.
Usually i aim for the cockpit initially if i get a burst in there i then let the bullets stream back to a point just in front of the tail and hold it there as long as i can before breaking off.
It is very rare if the bomber does not go down in 1 pass.
I now have 1 golden rule when attacking buffs, if i dont have about 3 k alt advantage and cant get directly above them i let em go.
Now a wise buff will sit within a wind shear or just below because this can cause havoc with a fighter lining up at speed from above, usually you have to correct your aim and this obviously cuts down the time available to hold on target.
Personally i dont feel the buffs are weak.
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Heh yah, it's easy with .50's, where ya can open up at d1.0 and keep firing. Hose the buff and down he goes.
Bit more tricky with Mausers. I usually hold my fire til around d200, then make an extremely close pass.
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One pass with a C.202 and its bye-bye B-17. :D
At least that's what happened last time I ran into a B-17 while flying a C.202.
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Karnak he probably was damaged up to the point that a sneeze would rip his wing off..
Last time I killed a B17 in 202 it took over half of the 202 ammo load fired consistently on the wing from D200-300. The pilot was a newbie so he didn't shoot back :)
I kept shooting and shooting, must have been 20-30 seconds of fire nonstop :) I started to think already that 202 just couldn't down a b17 even if I put the full ammo load in.
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Mr RiplEy,
Nah, this guy was fresh. I watched him spawn and take off.
Bounced him when he was well clear of the AA.
I started on his right wing, slid the fire over the fuselage and drilled the left wing for the rest of the way in. I was blacked out for the last bit, but I know that my final hits where probably from less than D25. He got a few hits on me on the way in, but not once I slid behind and below him. I think he lost track of where I went.
When I came out of the blackout and looked behind me he was spiraling down, minus his left wing.
[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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So what happened in reality was that you rammed him and he lost his wing due to collision ;)
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actualy ive downed a b17 in a 202 also with out a problem. I was even making slashing attacks, not saddled up on his 6. It could be the fact that i have my convergence in the 202 @ 175 and i was firing with in that area.
I next to never fly buffs and i still think they could use some more armor.
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Originally posted by jpeg:
And where did you get this information from?
You should read this recent thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012667 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012667)[/Q UOTE]
it has come up over and over those threads are way old anyway ive heard it a dozen times in the past 1.5 yrs - i thought it was common knowledge that hitech upped the 50cal strength as a game adjustment to even the field. maybe if they implemented a search feature i could tell you.
if they have changed that fine but your 'proof' thread doesnt say whther they have or havent it just presents a bunch of hypothetical reasons why the bullets may be deadly. it never says conclusively whther they have or have not been adjusted. they are sound arguments but inconclusive. just because it should be deadly doent tell me whether it was beefed up or not, only that it shoudl be deadly. point out where it says they arent adjusted and ill agree with you in a heartbeat.
something conclusive would be like....oh i dont know maybe:
"the buff guns have not been increased in strength - they are modelled to be at their real world equivalent strength.
- hitech/pyro"
anything else is guessing.
good guessing mind you, but guessing. including saying they are.