Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ike 2K# on August 24, 2003, 01:18:50 PM
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Did P-38L variant see action in europe during daylight bombing escort along with P-51B/D and P-47Ds to Germany between 1943-'44?
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By the time the improvements to the late J models and the introduction of the L model, the P-38 was pretty much delegated to the ground attack role in Europe, with the P-51D and P-47 doing most of the escort duties for the bombers. That's not to say that P-38L's once in awhile didn't escort bombers after '44 but it was no longer its prime role.
This wasn't do to the performance of the P-38, since pretty much all the problems were fixed in the late model J's and L model but rather from high command politics. Maybe Savage or Widewing will drop by and answer your question more in detail.
ack-ack
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the L did see service in europe but only used as an attack plane to straff any targets in Germany right?
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Yes, the L model saw service in Europe. I don't think in the numbers that saw service in the Pacific though. Nor do I know what models the Free French and the Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force flew but I think those were probably a mix of G, H and J models but they might have received L models in mid-'44 or maybe even retro-fitted late model J's.
In the later stages of the Euro war, think from mid-44 and on, the P-38's primary role was starting to grow into that of an attack plane. It was no longer one of the primary air superiority fighters of the USAAF, P-47Ds and P-51Ds had taken up that role. Even though the L model and retro-fitted late model J's fixed pretty much all the problems that plagued the older models. That's not to say that the P-38 in the later stages of the war weren't tasked with local air superiority or air defense missions, it just wasn't their #1 job anymore.
The L model also saw life in forms of different variants like the F-5 recce version and the P-38L "Droop snoot" that was used on pathfinder bombing missions.
P-38L "Droop snoot" pathfinder
(http://www.aerofiles.com/lock-p38Lsnoot.jpg)
Ack-Ack
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Did they put someone in that nose? :eek:
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Yep, someone had to use the Nordin bombsight.
ack-ack
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They had better not be claustrophobic..
:eek:
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
By the time the improvements to the late J models and the introduction of the L model, the P-38 was pretty much delegated to the ground attack role in Europe, with the P-51D and P-47 doing most of the escort duties for the bombers. That's not to say that P-38L's once in awhile didn't escort bombers after '44 but it was no longer its prime role.
This wasn't do to the performance of the P-38, since pretty much all the problems were fixed in the late model J's and L model but rather from high command politics. Maybe Savage or Widewing will drop by and answer your question more in detail.
ack-ack
Some P-38Ls did reach 8th AF fighter groups and did fly escort missions prior to all P-38 groups transitioning to the P-51. They were not employed extensively with the 8th. Eventually, all 8th AF P-38s were transferred to the 9th Tactical AF. Italy was another matter. P-38Ls did fly escort missions with the 15th AF until VE day. The 15th pounded Germany, Austria, Hungary and several other European south-central and south-eastern countries. Berlin was not the exclusive domain of the 8th AF as the 15th AF went there several times, with P-38Ls as part of the escort. The last time the 15th AF went to Berlin was March 24, 1945. 273 P-38Ls and J-25s made up about 40% of the escort. In the middle May of 1945, 125 P-38Ls attacked German transportation targets in the Brenner Pass. In aerial combat they claimed 14 Germans fighters for 1 loss. 6 other P-38s were lost to flak or accident. Five bridges were destroyed, two were major highway bridges cutting off German retreat), several hundred trucks and light armored vehicles were destroyed or damaged.
P-38s were very active in Europe right up until the German surrender.
My regards,
Widewing
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The middle of may? What? The war ended in May 8th...
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Regardless when in May it took place, the Nazis sure got their butts handed back to them in that attack.
Ack-Ack
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Too bad they didn't convert the late P38's to swept wings as Grumman did with the F9F Panther-to-Cougar series jets.
Would have solved the 38's dive compression problems.
Cya,
Eagle
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It didn't need to have swept wings. The dive flaps introduced in the L model and retro-fitted to the late J models solved that problem.
ack-ack
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Ack Ack,
They only solved the problem if the pilot remembered to deploy them BEFORE or just after he initiated a high speed resultant dive. Otherwise the actuator motor would not have sufficient force to deploy the "flap".
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The middle of may? What? The war ended in May 8th...
Sorry, typo.. It was middle of April, 1945.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Eagle327
Too bad they didn't convert the late P38's to swept wings as Grumman did with the F9F Panther-to-Cougar series jets.
Would have solved the 38's dive compression problems.
Cya,
Eagle
Consider that the P-38 used the same NACA airfoil design as the Lockheed Electra transport and you'll better understand why it had problems with localized supersonic airflow. The critical Mach for the P-38 was 0.68 Mach. Compare that to the P-51 with 0.75 and you can see why the P-38 needed the dive recovery flaps.
Sweeping the wings MAY delay the onset of compressibility, but it could not be done simply because the it would drastically change the center of gravity and the center of lift. Just because the Me 262 has wings that are slightly swept, don't think that was done to delay compressibilty, because it wasn't. It was done strictly to keep the center of gravity within required limits. Indeed, the 262 had no more sweep-back than the C-47.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Ack Ack,
They only solved the problem if the pilot remembered to deploy them BEFORE or just after he initiated a high speed resultant dive. Otherwise the actuator motor would not have sufficient force to deploy the "flap".
And that's the problem I see in here in regards to those that don't fly the P-38L that much in AH. I think that's how the P-38 got its nasty reputation for compressing in the game. The ones that fly the P-38 as their primary ride usually don't have that problem unless we had a brain fart and forgot to engage the dive flaps.
Almost kind of mirrors real life when the P-38 was plagued with problems in the early years when pilots received insufficient training in the P-38 and didn't have a clear, if any, understanding of what compressability was.
ack-ack
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I'm curious on this, what are the guidelines on how/when to employ the dive brakes on a p38 in AH?
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employ 'em when you hit TAS 400 mph while your on a steep dive and pull stick up...
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
employ 'em when you hit TAS 400 mph while your on a steep dive and pull stick up...
My experience with the P-38L is that if you have the plane properly trimmed, deploying the dive recovery flaps induces pullout without backpressure on the stick.
My regards,
Widewing
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here's a new question... did P-38L have a different paint scheme besides the one we have right now (rough silver)?
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There's the olive-drab color most associated with the Pacific Theatre. I prefer the silver one with invasion stripes, myself.
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I wish we didnt have any 'silver' planes in the set.. I wouldnt mind if they were actually silver. But they're white. :p
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm curious on this, what are the guidelines on how/when to employ the dive brakes on a p38 in AH?
Some say the dive flaps don't work on the P-38L but like Widewing said, I've found out that if properly trimmed, the dive flaps will give about a 3-4 degree positive lift.
When I deploy the dive flaps, it's almost always as I start my dive. I rarely engage it during the actual dive itself and if you have combat trim turned on, it will pretty much render the dive flaps useless as it will automatically compensate for the lift generated by the dive flaps.
You can, like Ike#2 said, only deploy the dive flaps at 400mph IAS but it won't hurt anything and it's a good habit to start if you engage them at the beginning of your dive. My dives are usually started below 300mph IAS, usually around 250mph IAS and use my throttle to keep myself on the edge of compressability so that I still have control, although sluggish from riding on the edge of a high speed buffet. If you start your dive below 20,000ft, you don't have to worry about using the dive flaps since you won't compress at lower altitudes. Also, another misconception is that the dive flaps can also be used as dive brakes but I've found out that the drag caused by the dive flaps is insufficient enough to be of much use as a dive brake, unlike the P-38J in AW. If you fly the P-38L long enough, you'll find out some other useful stuff the dive flaps can do.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Rutilant
I wish we didnt have any 'silver' planes in the set.. I wouldnt mind if they were actually silver. But they're white. :p
I think the metal finish was mandated by the USAAF in '44 but that a lot of the pilots didn't like them because it made them stand out more. But when they found out that lack of paint meant less weight on the P-38, they accepted that minor benefit. Not sure if the guys in the PTO were ordered to do the same thing since they tended to do things quite differently than the ETO USAAF.
Ack-Ack
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Not a big thing, but small correction, Akak.
The combat trims work differently. What they do, is change trim settings according to different speeds in a premise that they are flying level, regardless of the condition of the plane. So when combat flaps are engaged during a dive, the CT doesn't necessarily "adjust according to the lift the dive flaps generate".
What it does, is just simply keeps pushing the elevator trim downwards as much as needed if that plane would have been flying level. So, in a dive, once certain speed is achieved, the pilot can let go of the stick and the plane just automatically 'unloads' the plane via CT - that's usually the case when inexperienced P-38L/Bf109 pilots crash to the ground.
For instance, in a low-alt, high speed chase near about 400mph, the pilot could push the stick just a teeney bit forward, expecting to get 20~30mph extra speed. But if CT is on, even if they push only a teensey bit the elevator suddenly locks up and the nose pitch keeps dropping further and further by itself as if the pilot was pushing the stick forward.
You can confirm this by observing the behavior of CT when flaps are deployed for landing putposes. The flaps generate extra lift, and drags the speed of the plane down. The CT keeps pushing the elevator trim upwards since the plane is losing speed, and this combined with the flap lift, the plane noses up and climbs towards the sky, and then it stalls itself out unless the pilot overrides the CT and readjusts it manually according to the status of his plane, or forcibly keeps the pitch down by pushing the stick.
If the CT accounted for the lift status of the plane, that would not be seen.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
here's a new question... did P-38L have a different paint scheme besides the one we have right now (rough silver)?
Hey, you're hijaking your own thread!
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Thanks for the answers, everyone!
:)
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:p All this 38 talk is given me a woody :D
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I think a lot of people have trouble flying the P38 because they see the 2000 rounds of 50 cals, and think they have to have it. Actually, the opposite is true. The 2000 rounds really makes your nose heavy and you can't fight in the vertical nearly as well. Try it, next time use the 800 round load out. Not only will you be making tighter turns and find it easier to keep your nose up, but you won't be tempted to stick around and fight so much when you should really be running for home.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Not a big thing, but small correction, Akak.
The combat trims work differently. What they do, is change trim settings according to different speeds in a premise that they are flying level, regardless of the condition of the plane. So when combat flaps are engaged during a dive, the CT doesn't necessarily "adjust according to the lift the dive flaps generate".
Since CT tries to approximate neutral trim for that given speed it does negate the nose up lift from the dive flaps because it's trying to keep the plane approximately trimmed to neutral.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by mos
I think a lot of people have trouble flying the P38 because they see the 2000 rounds of 50 cals, and think they have to have it. Actually, the opposite is true. The 2000 rounds really makes your nose heavy and you can't fight in the vertical nearly as well. Try it, next time use the 800 round load out. Not only will you be making tighter turns and find it easier to keep your nose up, but you won't be tempted to stick around and fight so much when you should really be running for home.
I've never noticed any difference between taking 800 rounds or the full 2,000 round load out in regards to maneuverability or performance in the P-38. The advantage gained is so slight that it's really a non-factor. I always recommend taking the full ammo load, the ability to put more lead in the air makes up for any minor, inconsequential advantage the small ammo load might offer.
Ack-Ack
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Far be it from me to argue with the resident P-38 master, I'll give it a look again tonight. It very well could have been my imagination.
Then again, my second argument still stands: taking 2000 rounds really encourages you to stay in the air longer than you really should (for people learning the plane at the very least). I don't know how many chances at 5+ kill sorties I've had and lost, all because I thought "I've still got a thousand rounds, I can stick it out a bit longer............. .............. ..........dammit."