Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shane on August 25, 2003, 06:00:59 PM
-
if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?
-
lack of numbers during European flying times.... :)
-
I'm not really a regular, but nor do I avoid it.
The thing that annoys me most about the CT is the low numbers combined with the radar and icon settings. These factors combine to create excessive dot chasing and few fights.
I also have noticed a great excess of milk running lately. This was particularly bad in last weeks 1944 Western Europe setup. Keyapaha and I were flying Mossies and it was hard as hell to find a fight. I recall one guy using GVs that would leave for another base everytime we showed up. What is the point of that? If you want to be unoppsed why not just run it solo offline?
-
Originally posted by Karnak
I'm not really a regular, but nor do I avoid it.
The thing that annoys me most about the CT is the low numbers combined with the radar and icon settings. These factors combine to create excessive dot chasing and few fights.
Agreed.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
combined with the radar and icon settings. These factors combine to create excessive dot chasing and few fights.
Bingo.
There's still that idea that futzing with the radar and icons somehow makes the CT more "realistic" or some such nonsense.
If icons were TRULY realistic, they'd disappear when you get close.. we have it just the opposite.
-
Oh...I forgot to add the annoying nonsense of constantly having your perks reset.
-
Icon and radar setting have varied and guess what, there werent any more people in the ct then usual.
Also milk running in the ct isnt a recent thing it started when base capture was added.
The reason dot chasing is a problem is because most of the time one side has faster planes and unless they decide to fight you will never catch them.
In ah you can spot the "dot" clear as day from way out. radar settings change with who ever is running this weeks set up.
It wouldnt matter if you had full radar from the deck to space and covering every corner. If folks rather milk run or practice aerial strafing runs aka bore and ZZZZZZ then a low populated arena is boring. Take the night, the base porking and field capture out and put the "combat" back into the "combat" theater and you may find folks who like to fight head there especially when the pizza map is up.
The 1 thing that brings in players is a decent map with bases that are close and plane set thats relatively equal.
-
Numbers. Also, which ever side has the percieved edge will greatly outnumber the "lesser" opponent.
-
sorry batz... it's been a long long long time since they've used MA standard settings for dar and in the meantime the AH playerbase has truly expanded dramatically. one wouldn't waste time chasing a dot if one could tell whether it was friend or foe. the matchups are *usually* pretty balanced with no one side having a huge overall speed advantage.
NB... if the perks weren't reset (and they aren't very often as we don't often have perked rides) occasionally, it'd defeat the intent of having perked rides as we'd all have gobs and gobs of perkies earned and unspent (or unspendable). besides, when there *are* perked rides, the cost is usually so laughable that you can earn enough for anything with a sortie or 3. hell, i earned a weeks worth of p-51's with 2 sorties of 109f4.
-
When did they last try MA "standard" and announce it so everyone knew?
If one side has faster planes... um, who picks the planeset? Can't that be balanced?
-
Numbers.
-
If your just playing the game for a ten minute "fix" then the ct is going to be difficult for you to enjoy. The ct is a bit more frustrating exactly because of reduced icons and dar but the result is a more challenging and difficult environment to play in than the ma, usually.....for me......in my opinion.
Its not about the ct or the ma being better than the other, its about the players preferences. For me I tend to experience the ct as a bit more of a simulation of ww2 that I dont get from the ma. Im just happy there is a viable alternative to the ma.
-
Originally posted by Furious
Numbers. Also, which ever side has the percieved edge will greatly outnumber the "lesser" opponent.
Sounds like a "Catch-22". The numbers are low because the numbers are low.
-
When did they last try MA "standard" and announce it so everyone knew?
If one side has faster planes... um, who picks the planeset? Can't that be balanced?
Unless you just enable all planes for all sides then no there is no balance. If oneside planes are "better" then its turns into your typical gangbang.
Shane there aint that many folks in the ct to get confused as to who the bad guy is. If the 2 dots are there to fight then on just spotting each other they would move closer to fight. You have dots running from dots. Most of the time friendly icons are at 6k main standard.
Its not like the dots are hard to spot.
The problem with the ct isnt that its so different then the main, its because its to close. Then oneday last week I went into the ct some tard came in pork augered the radar at the field then came back killed the fuel on the france map. Those bases are pretty far apart as is so I just logged. The other time I went in it was night.
The last time I was in the finrus map some one had milk run all the fields around hq and were constantly knocking it down.
Turn off field capture and night I dont think it matters what the icon settings are.
There times when theres 40 people in the ct and 25 of umm are on the "massive jabo misson of the week" deal.
The current slot set up is great as long as the fights are around 2 of the closer bases. For the most part the ct is like the pizza map hard to find a fight but not because of radar and icons but of the 40 gus in there you only find 2 or 3 that like to fight.
Convince the next ct cm to put main settings, it wont matter. I had main settionmgs up a few time when i was a ct cm. When I ran the big week setup I had longer radar settings then the main. There were no more folks the usual and most of those complained.
Maybe I shouldda spammed the entire ah player base because its obvious had the players known they would have flocked there.
The fact is the main is a better fight 90% of the time. If the ct were that good folks would be there regardless if dar is 25 miles or 50.
But hey like I said tell umm to try it again.
-
Originally posted by Shane
it'd defeat the intent of having perked rides as we'd all have gobs and gobs of perkies earned and unspent (or unspendable).
Like I have in the MA? :)
-
batz, the setups are generally more balanced than you're implying.
dot dar *does* make a difference. it's not the dots, it's identifying them. and in general bases are closer than on maps like pizza and bug isles.
field capture/milking is not as rampant as it used to be. and it's generally the same (type) player who does that.
a few squads run squad nites in CT and they'd love some opposition - and it has been arranged and all had fun.
more people like to mix it up in CT than from what you might remember - some of them have "evolved." there's a slow influx of noobs who go thru that cycle.
when was the last time you ran a CT setup?
i fly both ma/ct and enjoy both for what they are.
i'm just wondering why more don't fly CT, and the bottom line seems to be "numbers." why are #'s low? how to increase them, since AH now has a very healthy player base? dunno, but the most common complaint seems to be radar settings. try 2 months solid of MA radar settings for every setup and see what happens, not a setup here and there, which is just a crap shoot.
i don't think CT will ever be action packed in non-primtime (US), simply because overall #'s don't support it then.
-
Yeah, I think the way the settings are constantly changing probably plays into this as well. Set MA standard and leave it alone. They you MIGHT be able to tell if that's the problem. But continually changing it makes it easy to say "that can't be it" I guess.
Fields to far apart? Somebody sounds like Laz! :D That's a design/mapmaker problem, one the CT shares with the MA.
-
It really needs more a/c to allow for balanced scenarios...late war bombers vs early war fighters leave most people cold....CT is always going to be the red headed step child to ma though..
-
Hi,
What Im missing from AH Online is CT and SEA.
This "Numbers" reason is nothing but big time excuse for those who dont have a guts to fly anything else than their favorite airplane... :p
(pulling flamesuit on)
CMs are making their best to provide interesting & challenging setups for the AH community.
Because of current AH plane selection, some compromise must done. Real big deal! :rolleyes:
Why not spend at least one evening every week in CT and accept the weekly challenge? Its just a game.
(duck 'n cover :D )
-
keep hearing "numbers"
how many "numbers" do you need?
one
one enemy
or is it "numbers" as in your wingmen covering your arse so you live through another gang sortie?
what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?
they are scared :)
-
Originally posted by Shane
NB... if the perks weren't reset (and they aren't very often as we don't often have perked rides) occasionally, it'd defeat the intent of having perked rides as we'd all have gobs and gobs of perkies earned and unspent (or unspendable). besides, when there *are* perked rides, the cost is usually so laughable that you can earn enough for anything with a sortie or 3. hell, i earned a weeks worth of p-51's with 2 sorties of 109f4.
Shane...
I would have less of a problem with more perk rides or putting a cap on them than I do with just zapping them periodically.
-
Originally posted by NoBaddy
I would have less of a problem with more perk rides or putting a cap on them than I do with just zapping them periodically.
Why the concern over perk points? In any ten weekly setups, there may be one that has perked planes and, as Shane said, they're perked at the level of 2 or 3 points each. Otherwise, for months at a time, you have nothing to buy with your points.
I'm just curious, is all.
- oldman
-
"The 1 thing that brings in players is a decent map with bases that are close and plane set thats relatively equal.
__________________
"
yep.. that's it for any arena but... I would add that I don't like the axis vs allied thing. It's ok once in a while if you have early war planes that tend to fight each other but.... even then... like last night in the PTO the combinations of acm consist of.... the zeke move against the F4F move. in a very short time you have learned exactly what not only you and your opponent can do but what your teammates and his can do to help you/him... Axis vs allied is a simpletons game and gets boring quickly.
The CT is fun if there is nothing happening in the main... if the main is pizza or if it is night and..... if the CT is early war planesets with NO perk planes and you don't play there very long and no one is milkrunning in the CT and and and...
MY opinion? the CT can be fun for a diversion if you don't do it too often and stick to the early war setups... Not enough variety or numbers to really hold my attention tho.... I ain't into pretending I am fighting WWII. I read the book... I know how it turned out and, pretty much, why.
oh... i seen just as much (percapita) channel one 12 year old stuff and just as much unskilled flying and just as much porkage and milkrunning in the CT as in the MA. People are people.
lazs
-
I fly in the CT whenever I see three dozen or more in there. That means there may be up to a dozen players fighting each other. (I can never figure out where the other two dozen are or if it's a roster "tally bug" with the host). But even then if the sides are severely imbalanced, two to one or worse, then I'd rather go to the MA.
-
Finding a fight:
I can't ever remember having trouble finding a fight except once on the Fin-Rus map. If I see three dots to my north I check friendly dot dar and if it only shows one friendly dot, I turn north to engage the bandits, especially in this weeks setup.
Numbers:
When the numbers are around 40, I usually check out the CT.
Stay and play:
I stay if the side numbers don't get too far out of balance.
I leave when the numbers fall or if the side balance is too far out of line, unless switching sides will help.
I would like it better if more of my squadmates flew the CT but I can't pry them out of their favorite rides.
-
numbers
-
1) handsomehunk short nma/long frnd icon setting (last time I was there)
2) No dar = no fight
3) CV dweebishness
4) They keep wiping out my perkies
-
Numbers and Icon settings
-
icon setting mainly.
Hmmm, there's a general trend appearing here.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
-
No people in PAC prime time.
Extinction of a "USAAF" in a Euro setup.
Continuous lop-sidedness towards Allied forces- not huge, but still enough to annoy.
Not enough planes
...
but there are still some setups I would always try to fly in - BoB, Tunisia, Malta, Continuation war.
-
The radar and icon settings for reasons I have posted about before.
(Yeah and you never have any perks.)
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Why the concern over perk points? In any ten weekly setups, there may be one that has perked planes and, as Shane said, they're perked at the level of 2 or 3 points each. Otherwise, for months at a time, you have nothing to buy with your points.
I'm just curious, is all.
- oldman
It's not really a big deal. Just a small thing that I find annoying. That...added to the other small annoying things (for me anyway) means that I spend less time in the CT than I might otherwise.
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Why the concern over perk points?
- oldman
Because what the CT can offer that the MA can't is Spits in a relevant setting. And where there's Spits involved; I KNOW the CT types will have the Spit perked.
I've no objection to popping in on the odd evening and flying on the short side to save for and ensure my ride of choice; I've great objection to logging on to the CT when "my" set up comes along only to find some bugger's nicked me savings.
-
Base capture ruins the CT.
There's also another element in the CT that somewhat kills it. No matter what the matchup, one planeset will have specific strengths quite different than the other side. It's not as much of a balance issue, rather a "playing to your strengths" issue. It's just not much fun when both sides have such a finite set of strengths and weaknesses. You always know exactly what you're playing into.
Also, there's the curse of the "the fight isn't exactly what I was looking for so I'll go back to the MA and do something other than what I was looking for there." Someone loses a good dogfight... they leave. Someone doesn't like the odds, they leave. Someone doesn't like base spacing, they leave. The numbers swing way too drastically.
MiniD
-
Originally posted by Seeker
Because what the CT can offer that the MA can't is Spits in a relevant setting. And where there's Spits involved; I KNOW the CT types will have the Spit perked.
spits are almost never perked (can't recall last setup with a perked spit5/9), except sometimes the 14 in some setups... even then only at 2-5 perkies...
-
Originally posted by Mini D
Base capture ruins the CT.
There's also another element in the CT that somewhat kills it. No matter what the matchup, one planeset will have specific strengths quite different than the other side. It's not as much of a balance issue, rather a "playing to your strengths" issue. It's just not much fun when both sides have such a finite set of strengths and weaknesses. You always know exactly what you're playing into.
Also, there's the curse of the "the fight isn't exactly what I was looking for so I'll go back to the MA and do something other than what I was looking for there." Someone loses a good dogfight... they leave. Someone doesn't like the odds, they leave. Someone doesn't like base spacing, they leave. The numbers swing way too drastically.
MiniD
There go those strat guys ruinin everyones fun
-
Given the limited numbers in the CT... strat is completely worthless.
Of course, the fact that even when fighting you're more than likely going to be outnumbered and out-alted has nothing to do with strat....
Strat is for the big arena. If you don't like it... head to the other ones. The worst day for the CT was when those "in the know" got together and decided base capture was necessary to promote... um.... I don't really know what they were trying to promote.
MiniD
-
Originally posted by Mini D
The worst day for the CT was when those "in the know" got together and decided base capture was necessary to promote... um.... I don't really know what they were trying to promote.
While base capture exists, and while there are those who practice it, it isn't usually a big issue. There will be milkrunners, in tanks or boats quite often, off in a corner of the map, amusing themselves with their own antics. It's rare to find the sort of determined base swarming assault that I understand exists in the MA. Too many people like me who get mad at the vulchers, perhaps.
- oldman
-
The radar is somewhat annoying, finding a fight can be too much of a pain, but its usually not that big of a deal as long as there is bardar.
The planesets though are something that bothers me. A good setup in the CT is a lot of fun(e.g. finrus), but too often it seems they try and push for setups which are badly supported by the AH planeset. (e.g. early war setups with the japanese having a ki67)
-
Lack of an early-war P-38 variant, and (less importantly) lack of skill. The CT guys just seem to be better organized and I tend to get into furballs with obvious squads --multiple pairs keeping formation with each other. I'm still too new to handle those kinds of odds.
-
numbers ussually too low.
Otherwise, it's far more fun than MA. It's almost like the MA of old times when people had social abilities, a sence of humour and honour.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
I'm not really a regular, but nor do I avoid it.
The thing that annoys me most about the CT is the low numbers combined with the radar and icon settings.
Please, dont change the icon setting!
Short icons are one of the nicest thing in CT. It makes you bit paranoid:) Good team work help to avoid nasty situtions.
Maybe CMs could do something with radar setting first.
Lets hope AH2 bring some new icon modes for host.
-
strat is turned off in the ct. What happens is rebuild times are the same as they were in ah before resupply etc. Sometimes the rebuild timesare tweaked but for the most part there is no strat.
you do get milkrunners and at certain times as much as 50% of the arena numbers are milkrunning and the majority of the other 50% dont like to fight unless the circle the moon first.
What brings umm in is new maps. bob had numbers near 100 when it first was in the ct, same with tunisia, the slot, finrus and okinawa.
When the numbers are there and folks are fighting its great.
Get the ct cms to have main settings. But I am pretty sure the numbers wont grow. And a good number of the folks who fly there now will be pissed over the settings.
People go where the fight is. There been less and less combat in the combat theater and its a mini/limited main.
-
Originally posted by Batz
Get the ct cms to have main settings. But I am pretty sure the numbers wont grow. And a good number of the folks who fly there now will be pissed over the settings.
And if, by chance, someone succeeded where you failed, it sure would be a pisser, eh? ;)
-
Numbers... but beyond that I think it's a matter of familiarity. It's hard to let go of the MA.
But the numbers have to be dealt with, and this is probably the purpose of this thread. To get the numbers up...
OFFER WHAT THE MA CAN'T.
Number 1, do away with base capture... at least not all the bases if you can differentiate. Or just make the bases destructable with longer regen times.
I like the limited plane set part. Maybe one side gets better planes, but it does provide variety and forces me to try new rides. I won't mind ever seeing another LA7, Tiffy, Tempest or P51 as long as I live! But many don't agree with me so offer variety.
Encourage side switching to even the odds. It's no fun being mercilessly ganged all the time. Two sides is best... easier to keep balanced.
If some want to milk run, let them... they can get their jollies and aren't hurting anyone if base capture is off.
Sunday night my squad went to the CT to escape the Desert Terrain and land grabbing hordes. Everyone had a good time. I think we will do it more often.
-
Still a newbie, but I've flown in CT a few times now and found it much more enjoyable then the pork it or take it of MA.
Not exactly sure on how the points/perks bit works since I've never been able to get worked up about points or flying uber planes, but why not eliminate the points etc from the CT?
With the emphasis on points & perks in the MA, it becomes almost against the rules to dive back in to the fight for fear of losing your perks.
Last night I was dying often in an F4F but having a blast. Ironically, I flew better in the MA later when I got back into the planes I usually enjoy flying. Having to work at the F4F made the others that much easier.
CT in that regard can in a sense become the learning ground for those who in particular like the ACM aspect of the game.
I'd minimize the base capture, pork it possibilities too, unless it really contributes to the set up in some regards.
I suppose it ends up segregating the ACM guys from the pork and capture crowd, but I don't know if thats such a bad thing anyway as from reading the boards that seems to be where the biggest divisions are.
As for the dar/icon stuff. It seemed to me last night that the fight was centralized enough that those were not really factors for finding the fight.
Whatever the case, I had a great time and am planning on dropping back in tonight
Dan/Slack
-
Dan. I think you were doing pretty good. Maybe I'll see you up tonight. Hopefully without the .... errr .... distractions. hehe
-
the easiest way to make base capture possible, but more difficult, would be to increase the # of drunks needed to take a base from 10 to say 15 or 20 or even 25.... it'd have to be well coordinated then, no easy milking, unless by 2-3 people and unopposed.
i think you could even have a time limit on the drunks.
the biggest no-no about base captures is resetting the arena.... it hoses the planesets and requires a manual repair by some CT staffer.
but yeah it basically boils down to familarity and going where the #'s are. i think a CT population of 70-120 can be very action packed... it can be even with 30 on, but it all depends on *who* those 30 are, or rather their motivations for using CT.
were it up to me, i'd have MA dar settings with increased # drunks to take bases and slightly reduced regen times with 1/2 MA-strengthed fleets (to avoid mobile ack battery sitting on the beach - something that is already done, both the weakened fleet and beach parking).
there are a lot of way cool CT maps, and generally things are fairly close. the only thing that is hard to regulate is *how* people fly and what they *do* in CT.
icon ranges... i can deal with the short icon ranges, it's nooo biggie and keeps you on your toes.
fuel burn is also generally slower than MA, so you can get places even with 25% for the most part.
-
I want so much to be able to like the CT but.........
its boring cant find a fight...numbers to low...plus to me its no different than the MA. Same thing happens in CT that happens in MA with the only difference being axis allies set up with matching plane set.
-
Originally posted by Innominate
The radar is somewhat annoying, finding a fight can be too much of a pain, but its usually not that big of a deal as long as there is bardar.
The planesets though are something that bothers me. A good setup in the CT is a lot of fun(e.g. finrus), but too often it seems they try and push for setups which are badly supported by the AH planeset. (e.g. early war setups with the japanese having a ki67)
Set-up bias annoys the hell out of me. Including the Ki-67 in the Slot set-up is outrageous considering that it's faster than any fighter in the plane set. Naturally, you find guys who fly the Ki-67 in formations as a battlestar hoping someone will attack... Why not use the Ju 88? I'll tell ya why, it doesn't have the Nippon rising sun on the wings and fuselage and a 20mm gun turret. Yet, if the P-40E or F4U-1 is in the plane set, you can bet it'll be confined to some atoll 6 sectors away from the fight in the interest of "balance". :rolleyes:
Naturally, "balance" really means "give the Japanese every possible break" while tossing the Allied players a bone they can't chew. Of course it does depend on which CT staffer does the set-up, some are more concerned with historical accuracy than "balance".
Is there ever a late-war PAC set-up without a gozillion N1K2s buzzing around? Odd because no N1K2-J unit every deployed outside of Japan, and I can find reference to only one N1K1-J unit that deployed to the PI, where it was obliterated.
When we see the Burma set-up we see A6M2s up the wazoo. Yet, no Zeros were in the theater during 1941-42. Now, we'll hear arguments that the Zero is substituting for the Ki-43. Well, the Ki-43 wasn't in theater until late May of '42 in any numbers, and it was markedly inferior to the A6M2. Most Japanese Army Air units were flying the Ki-27 Nate which offered performance notably below the Ki-43. Instead we have a cannon armed fighter rather than the JAAF planes with two little 7.7mm MGs. Hell, the D3A Val comes closer than the Zero does. And where is the P-40E, which constituted the bulk of AVG fighters by July (and were arriving in early April)? It's nowhere to be found. Sure sounds like balance to me.
Aside from these issues, there's some other issues that annoy me. For example: I logged on during the most recent Luftwaffe/Soviet set-up (a good set-up in general) and found several jerks vulching a field. I upped an La-7 and paid a visit. One by one they went home after shooting out their guns. One by one they came back and I killed them when they did. Finally after I had shot down four different guys, they stopped. So I landed. 10 minutes later, 6 of them come back... Scared to fight alone they had to first gather a gang of dweebs. Pathetic but completely the norm in the CT. I can think of only a handful of guys willing to venture out alone. Shane, Eskimo, Eagler, Blondy and Yeager come to mind, but there are a few others too. However, the majority fly only in packs (when they're not milkrunning undefended fields).
Gangbanging, vulching and milkrunning are becoming far more common. It used to be that we would let a disabled plane wobble on home simply because he had fought the good fight and there was nothing to be proved by finishing his wrecked fighter. That doesn't happen anymore. Guys go out of their way to chase down a cripple.
Then we have the real issue of balance. 26 Allies, 8 Axis, or 19 Axis, 6 Allied. A few guys will switch sides, but most will not. Many are in squads, so where the squad is, they stay. Naturally with such lopsided numbers the few getting repeatedly ganged simply log off.
Think of the CT in marketing terms, if your product was what people wanted, you'd sell a lot more of them. The CT is the Nash Rambler of Aces High. It doesn't appeal to many buyers because you haven't figured out what the buyers want. There's nothing wrong with being the Nash Rambler in a world of Chevys and Fords, just so you understand that your core buyer base will never grow in proportion to the total number of potential buyers unless you are willing to do what is required to compete with the big guys (IE: MA and SEA).
As it is, the CT has its dedicated core, but few people come in and stay. Don't get me wrong, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means that the percentage of MA to CT players will remain where it is.
I still enjoy the CT, but only as a diversion from the MA.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Excellent thread. I find myself flying CT more than MA because you usually find better pilots and players in a smaller setting with more equal matchups based as much as possible on various historical events.
Much better chance of having good one on one duels with the best pilots and learning from them. Usually more cavalier sportsmanship, saluting opponents who exit damaged or low on fuel or ammo after a robust fight.
I look forward to Aces High eventually having an even greater assortment of rides to choose from to permit much better matchups. The most obvious mismatch, which I have complained mightily about until finally ignoring it, is the Ki-67 in early war scenarios.
Best attraction about CT is the ease of grabbing whatever and start cruising -- it doesn't take long to find an opponent who'll deserve your full attention.
-
Including the Ki-67 in the Slot set-up is outrageous considering that it's faster than any fighter in the plane set.
The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f. The boston is at max 40 mph faste rhten the a6m2 belwo 15k. I see where you feel its unfair. :rolleyes:
You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.
A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.
For the most part the ijn planes are all earlier models and the us are all later. Put a niki in folks cry. The ki-61 we have is the slowest variant. So you may want you f4u-1 with its 50 speed advantage but dont say the Japs get all the advantage. Those are and have been the worst setups and the least populated.
Its those kinds of disparity that make the ct crap.
They even used to to run a6m5s vrs p51b, all the hogs jugs p38l b17 and b26. So you you dotn know crap about who gets what advantage.
-
Originally posted by Batz
The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f.
You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.
A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.
The japanese planeset is vastly understocked, which makes pac setups especially tough.
The bombload is mostly irrelevent, not all that much bombing is done in the CT, the problem is when bombers are used as gunships.
The boston has some of the same problems of the ki67, however it lacks the lethality. A few setups ago it was mainly P40B's vs A6M2's. The Ki67 was the best 'fighter' in the arena, and I easily landed three 10 kill sorties in a row just plowing through the furball at full speed.
I have to disagree about the ki67 being easier to kill though, the boston might take more shots to kill, but you don't have that 20mm cannon blasting away at you. The bostons rear guns are barely better than useless. (Esp since its missing its ventral gun)
As for the TBM and SBD being late war models, it doesnt matter because they're STILL outclassed by the fighters opposing them by a huge margin.
I'm curious though, in the real world, did the P-40E dominate the zero as completly as it does here? Or is there something wrong with the modeling or just an effect of the gameplay which makes it that way?
-
if we had a betty it would be just as well defended as the peggy.
So its not really the peggy thats the problem then.
50 cals kill peggys easily but if you get hit by the 20mm you will die fast. The same thing would happen with the betty.
Not everyone is an ackstar so you reap what you sow. :p
The boston doesnt need much protection when it max out at about 40mph faster then the only japanese fighter.
The sbd and tbm have better guns then the a6m2 and see the in furballs all the time.
This just a case of a few allied types gettin a taste of their own medicine and not liking it. Oh well butch up, it aint that bad.
-
Originally posted by Batz
The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f. The boston is at max 40 mph faste rhten the a6m2 belwo 15k. I see where you feel its unfair. :rolleyes:
You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.
A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.
For the most part the ijn planes are all earlier models and the us are all later. Put a niki in folks cry. The ki-61 we have is the slowest variant. So you may want you f4u-1 with its 50 speed advantage but dont say the Japs get all the advantage. Those are and have been the worst setups and the least populated.
Its those kinds of disparity that make the ct crap.
They even used to to run a6m5s vrs p51b, all the hogs jugs p38l b17 and b26. So you you dotn know crap about who gets what advantage.
I have no idea why you believe everyone else is ignorant. However, because my Bullchit detector is pegged, I'm going to respond to your rambling anyway.
What's wrong with the Ki-67? Use your brain and think, why is it in the plane set? Because the Japanese need a bomber? Buzzzz... Wrong answer. It's there for exactly the reason I stated. So that it can be flown just to draw up fighters to pop with the 20mm. If the Japanese need a bomber, why not give them the Ju 88? It hauls 3 times the ordnance, and is capable of 300 mph (much faster than many JAAF and IJN bombers). Why incorporate a late-war bomber if not for its battlestar ability?
As to the Boston, it probably should be replaced by the B-17 which WAS in service and in theater in 1942-43 with the 13th AF. In fact, they had four Groups of B17s, one of B-24s and one of B-25s. A-20s were assigned largely to the 5th AF. Now before you start to whine about only the B-17G being available instead of the B-17F, let me remind you that the only significant difference was the addition of a power chin turret. G models were actually slower and didn't climb as well. Surely the A6M2 can catch the Fortress.... One other point, the Boston has nearly useless defensive guns and HTC decided to eliminate the ventral gun. Not only that but those two .303s in the nose are useless as the rear guns. Clearly useful only as a bomber and not a battlestar.
As to the SBD and TBM, what significant differences can you cite? A few horsepower in the SBD-5, that barely offsets the extra weight? Likewise the TBM has 97% commonality with the TBF. Not especially good examples.
Now, if the F4F-4 seems to be too late in comparision to the A6M2, then use the FM-2 which had virtually the same speed, climb and guns as the F4F-3, but the FM-2 lacks the two stage supercharger that gave the F4F-3 better performance above 15k.
The Ki-61 we have may be the slowest, but its also the lightest and most agile. Besides, the Ki-61-II was a 1944 fighter and only 374 were built.
As to the F4U-1, it was in theater in early 1943. The best the IJN could offer was the A6M3, which was barely better than the A6M2. But what the hell, I'm generous, give the Axis the A6M5, not that it will make any difference.
Face facts, by 1943 Japan had no front line fighters that could compete with the U.S. hardware.
By the way, the P-51B only saw service against Japan in the CBI. When the Mustang did deploy to the SWPA and PTO, it was the P-51D and P-51K (some P-51Hs did go operational during the last week of July, 1945).
Personally, I believe that historical plane sets draw small crowds because the majority of the CT Axis gang haven't the stomach to fight against the same adversaries as Japan faced. Hell, I'll fight Corsairs and P-40Es with a Zero! And I won't whine about it either. I've flown entire MA tours flying only early-war fighters. It was challenging, but I still did better that 99% of the guys flying the late-war rockets. I guess some people don't want to be challenged, they'd rather fly the Niki and HO everything in sight.
The Okinawa event in the SEA drew large numbers, and it had an unbalanced, historical plane-set. See, if you provide a truly historical arena, people will come. As I see it, the CT promises a historical set-up. but doesn't deliver on that promise due to the gerrymandering of the plane set to make sure the Axis has parity. Parity is a myth, and it detracts from the historical feel of the game. People come in expecting one thing and get another. That's why most don't come back a second time.
Like I said, if your product was of any special value, it would sell a hell of a lot better than it does. If you want more people to fly there, then you're going to have to make changes to entice them in. So far, all I hear is people working at justifying the status quo.
My regards,
Widewing
-
so you are only for subs when it suits you?
when the only 2 other bombers the japanese have are the val and kate it easy for you to say so what if our sbds and tbms are not "quite right".
The fact is the peggy is it. Its all there is. If you dont wanna get popped with 20mm learn not to attack where that gun can hit you or leave umm alone, or continue your whine. If your whining because of the peggys guns then the betties are damn close. So its just a whine over being killed not about the plane. Under 15k the peggy is but about 10mph faster then the f4f.
With the boston's speed advantage theres little need for defensive guns. Plus the type 99 mk 1s in ah are weak and limited. It takes something to bring down a boston. 50s will shred a peggy.
Its not the guys in zekes and ki 61s ya see runnin. Just some of umm arent going to be bothered chasing the runners around.
You are just gettin a little taste of what normally happens to the other side and your panties are bunched. Like I said butch up, you'll be ok in the morning.
-
In one paragraph you implied you are an Allied flyer and in the same breath charge the Axis guys with not having “the stomach to fight against the same adversaries as Japan faced.” This on top of the fact that the Axis are usually out numbered 2 to 1 in the PTO setups I’ve seen lately.
This thread started out as an opinion pole on the CT, and by far, numbers and difficulty finding a fight is the message that keeps coming through as the major problems but you suggest, “if you provide a truly historical arena, people will come.” I couldn’t disagree more. The average player isn’t a history buff and doesn’t’ care about service dates or deployment dates, or attrition, he just wants to fly the best equipment the arena provides and find a good fight. Without some judicious balancing, and maybe some blatant tampering, the CT would become all Allied and without people willing to fly Axis, there won’t be any fun for anybody.
Many people might agree with you but I think the biggest draw of the CT is a balanced plane set and better fights with a historical feel, and I don’t think the CT could survive long with strict compliance to historical matchups.
-
deja said... "There's also another element in the CT that somewhat kills it. No matter what the matchup, one planeset will have specific strengths quite different than the other side. It's not as much of a balance issue, rather a "playing to your strengths" issue. It's just not much fun when both sides have such a finite set of strengths and weaknesses. You always know exactly what you're playing into. "
yep... allied vs axis is a drag after a very short time.. if there is no furball the planes simply play to their strengths which means..... same ol boring fights in short order... if you can find em.
The PTO setup currently running is working because everyone is concentrated in a very small area (close fields) and it is full of ex MA, pizza sick vets who want to furball. The sides are even cause in a furball.... the zekes advantages over the P40b and F4F is moot.
And yes... the FM2 would make a very good F4f3 substitute... It is not as fast or good climbing as the -3 but it does have more armor (tougher).
lazs
-
I just started getting into it when the current map got up. I dont like the map and i dont like the planeset.
-
Originally posted by Batz
so you are only for subs when it suits you?
when the only 2 other bombers the japanese have are the val and kate it easy for you to say so what if our sbds and tbms are not "quite right".
The fact is the peggy is it. Its all there is. If you dont wanna get popped with 20mm learn not to attack where that gun can hit you or leave umm alone, or continue your whine. If your whining because of the peggys guns then the betties are damn close. So its just a whine over being killed not about the plane. Under 15k the peggy is but about 10mph faster then the f4f.
With the boston's speed advantage theres little need for defensive guns. Plus the type 99 mk 1s in ah are weak and limited. It takes something to bring down a boston. 50s will shred a peggy.
Its not the guys in zekes and ki 61s ya see runnin. Just some of umm arent going to be bothered chasing the runners around.
You are just gettin a little taste of what normally happens to the other side and your panties are bunched. Like I said butch up, you'll be ok in the morning.
Batz, either you are being deliberately obtuse, or your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. If the latter is the case, I suggest you sue whatever school you attended to recover the wasted tuition. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former is the case. :P
I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have no issue with substitution provided that substitution accurately portrays a missing aircraft in the plane set.
The existing SBD and TBM offer no significant improvement over the SBD-3 or TBF. So stop raising that red herring of an argument, as it has no validity.
Secondly, including the Ki-67 is pure gerrymandering. One could easily substitute the Ju 88 if the Axis needs a bomber. It's far more effective as a bomber than the Ki-67. We all know that the Ki-67 is included as an ackstar.
Furthermore, I maintain about an 80/1 K/D against bombers, so I don't have any need for advice, thanks anyway.
I have also stated that the Boston doesn't belong in the slot plane set either. B-17s and B-25s (13th AF) flew in that theater.
Your last paragraph illustrates my frustration perfectly. It really doesn't matter what anyone wants, what may draw more players or what may generate more interest. You indicate that you will create the set-up the way YOU want it regardless of what anyone has to say. That attitude will not bring more players into the CT.
Remember Shane's original question? "if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?"
People attempt to answer the question and your manner of defending the status quo merely reinforces perceptions.
What the hell are you going to do when AH2 is released? I expect the CT player base to dwindle to a fraction of what it is, assuming HTC doesn't simply close it.
I suspect that the CT will be redundent. Why? Just read the AH2 FAQ: "Tour of Duty is a cross between a historical WWII simulation and military RPG. What is so different about it is that it’s not simply an Axis vs Allies free-for-all using WWII equipment in a geographic WWII setting. ToD puts you in the role of a WWII combat pilot (of course the emphasis is on air-combat, but ground combat will also be included at times) with all the responsibilities and restrictions that comes with it. You are not just an operator of military equipment, you are a soldier or airman in the military. That means that everything you do is part of a unit and part of a mission. There is no free-lancing, you can’t just select a plane and head off to exchange lead with the closest enemy."
For those of you who have argued that an accurately setup historical arena (even with an unbalanced plane set) will not draw in more players, take note that HTC is convinced that you're wrong.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Easyscor
In one paragraph you implied you are an Allied flyer and in the same breath charge the Axis guys with not having “the stomach to fight against the same adversaries as Japan faced.” This on top of the fact that the Axis are usually out numbered 2 to 1 in the PTO setups I’ve seen lately.
This thread started out as an opinion pole on the CT, and by far, numbers and difficulty finding a fight is the message that keeps coming through as the major problems but you suggest, “if you provide a truly historical arena, people will come.” I couldn’t disagree more. The average player isn’t a history buff and doesn’t’ care about service dates or deployment dates, or attrition, he just wants to fly the best equipment the arena provides and find a good fight. Without some judicious balancing, and maybe some blatant tampering, the CT would become all Allied and without people willing to fly Axis, there won’t be any fun for anybody.
Many people might agree with you but I think the biggest draw of the CT is a balanced plane set and better fights with a historical feel, and I don’t think the CT could survive long with strict compliance to historical matchups.
There have been late-war PTO set-ups where even with a gerrymandered plane set the Axis howled endlessly about the Allies have the P-38L and P-47D-25. Axis numbers were constantly low to the point where Fester and I were the only axis pilots flying for hours at a time. A significant number of Axis players simply didn't like facing superior aircraft and many went to the MA or switched sides to Allied. The net result was a very lopsided arena. It wasn't the set up, it was the unwillingness to accept the challenge of flying inferior aircraft. I often fly the SBD in the MA as a fighter, and manage to maintain a 4/1 K/D against the late-war rockets. There's nothing more satisfying than taking on a P-51D at 20k and defeating it with a 250 mph dive bomber. Flying inferior airplanes goes a long way towards improving one's skills. Yet, when we get an unbalanced plane set, numbers for the weaker side drop considerably. It's not the planes, it's the pilots. Thankfully, there is a core of players who fly what's available without complaint, and generally do well in them.
As to the concern that accurate historical set ups will not draw in more players, take note that HTC is convinced that you're wrong because that is exactly what AH2 TOD is going to be.
My regards,
Widewing
-
The ju88 carries 6000lbs of bombs but only has 3 7 mm guns as defense.
the sbd and tbm are better armed
So you have np subbing a ju88 for a betty even though it carries way more bombs. So its the guns, just as i said above.
You have np benefiting from upped gunned versions of the sbd and tbm. You have np with the axis struggling through with the obsolete val and kate.
The speed of ki-67 vrs the f4f is less an issue then comparing the a6m2 to the boston. Not to mention how poor the type 99 mk 1s are in ah.
The betty has similiar defensive guns as the peggy and a similiar bomb load. The peggy is by far a better match for the betty then any other bomber in ah.
So you are whining about a "well" gunned peggy and ignoring the advantage of the "better" gunned sbd and tbm. You ignore the much greater speed and offensive guns of the boston. You are very selective with your whines.
My reading is fine, you are whining as I decribed above.
After a little taste of what the other side has to deal with all the time you feel "something must be done".
I dont care about your scores. You tell us often enough anyway.
What keeps folks out of the ct is clear, its to much like the main with far less players. With the axis / allies thing in the ct it only only works if the numbers are balanced. The numbers are only balanced when the fight is fun and the match ups are good.
There are far fewer "axis" types in the ct then there was when the ct first opened because they had to deal to long and to many times with what you feel you face with the peggy. They dont fly there any more.
I am not on the ct staff anymore I quit last year when I was still using the nik "wotan". As for what happens to the ct I can honestly say I dont care. Theres nothing unique about the ct at all. Its a mini main with less players and a limited planest. It would be better off as a "dogfight arena" with mid to early fighters only and none of that base grabbing pork and auger. Atleast then you may find a good fight.
The one thing I would miss if and when the ct closes is the custom maps. Those are the one bright spot about the current ct.
Ah2:Tod is a totally different animal and with the current planeset neither one of us wiill have to suffer through another "pac set up" for some time.
Ah2:toD is mission based not "historical based". Theres a clear difference. Its not an open arena and theres no war to be won. There wont by large variations of plane types so the need for substutions maybe lower then what is needed in an open arena like the ct.
Ah2:tod wont need large arena numbers but just enough to make a single mission fun. Add in ai bomber formations and gvs and an mission with just 20 guys will be fun.
I fly fb alot and fly in most of the online wars and they are similiar to what can be expected in Ah2:ToD. The biggest draw back to the box games like Fb is the waiting for a mission to start and depending on the quality of host you get. In ah2:ToD the number thrown about was missions launching either every 15 min or 30 min. But still the setups need to balanced enough to attract players. No one here is in the AH "military" and that dont have to suffer through things that suck.
-
(http://perfecthost.org/zanth/ju88andki67climb.gif)
(http://perfecthost.org/zanth/ju88KI67speed.gif)
-
Oh yea... you two are pointing out the other problem with the CT.
MiniD
-
Widewing: Just curious, ill tell you why if you answer, what do you do for a living?
HiTech
-
Originally posted by mos
Lack of an early-war P-38 variant, and (less importantly) lack of skill. The CT guys just seem to be better organized and I tend to get into furballs with obvious squads --multiple pairs keeping formation with each other. I'm still too new to handle those kinds of odds.
That's my complaint. It seems that almost everytime there is a USAAF planeset, the P-38 is the odd man out and very rare to see it added to the CT planeset for that week.
ack-ack
-
zanth
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Clipboard02.jpg)
-
I've had some great fights in the CT, but also a lot of typical MA type stuff only with less total action. While you experience the challenge of an Eagler and his expertly flown 109 varient from time to time, you also experiece the usual ack running, milk running, enemy hoards/unbalance. I usually try to be a good sport and up for the side with the least numbers. But the end result often seems to be getting banged by better planes. As a solo flyer (more often than not), I also end up just wandering into bad numbers with the current dar setting while looking for a balanced fight. And it doesn't take all that many enemies to create bad numbers when it's you against the world and the enemy is flying better planes that can dictate the fight.
At least in the MA (even on the new big maps which are a generally a buzz kill for me), with the greater total numbers you can move around a bit, change countries maybe, and eventually find a good fight for a half hour or more. Or up a cheap perk plane and fly it recklessly :)
It's too bad, because I greatly prefer scenarios when I have the time to play them, and had hoped the CT would create that atmosphere, which for me it hasn't. I'll see what TOD has to offer.
Charon
-
Originally posted by hitech
Widewing: Just curious, ill tell you why if you answer, what do you do for a living?
HiTech
This might give you a hint of what he does.
Planes and Pilots of World War II - Online WW2 History Aviation Magazine (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/)
Ack-Ack
-
Remembered that data thing was somewhere but forgot where. Odd though, I now notice the these lines diverge from HTC's charts on the website (particualrly in the high alt figures).
-
Originally posted by hitech
Widewing: Just curious, ill tell you why if you answer, what do you do for a living?
HiTech
I'm a Design Engineer who works with military ordnance from small arms through missiles. I have been working with the Navy lately developing an electronic shot counter for several weapons such as the M2HB Browning .50 cal MG, Mk19 Grenade Launcher,
Mk.38 25mm Chain Gun Mount, MP-5, Mk47 Light Machine gun and so on. I design and test the sensors on the actual weapons. This may sound exciting, but it's not. Much of it is quite boring as there's about 80 hours of work for each hour on the test range and the test ranges are on military installations requiring long drives or hours in airports....
I supplement my income writing for aviation publications and doing technical editing for aviation authors. You can find my work in Flight Journal, Airpower International as well as a few others.
Aside from Aces High, I own and maintain a WWII aviation web site as a hobby.
Beyond doing unusual work, I'm just another working stiff looking forward to the weekend. :)
My regards,
Widewing
-
Widwing,
Just came across your thread.
You are absolutely right, the CT setups are exactly that, setups to create a completely non-historic version of events so the Axis can fly NIK2's against F4F-4's and win. For what reason I have no idea.
Even the week they ran Okinawa. The isle of Okinawa had NIK2's launching from everywhere (I wonder how many fields they actually had on the island) as well as A6M5's and KI-61's). The allies had three or for carrier groups where you could choose either the one carrier with the F4U-1, the 1 carrier with the F6F or the 1 with F4U-1D. If any of those carriers was sunk then you loose that A/C completely. Funny I had no idea that the Navy could not support F6F's and F4U's on the same deck.
Also you could not get a F4U off of a land based field, why?
The whole setup is so bull***** that it has little more than a novelty value.
Batz uses the term fair quite a bit. That is funny because the term historic would be much more helpful.
Also how is it possible to run the "slot" in 1943 and not have F4U's? The F4U had more kills in 1943 in the slot than any other A/C in the theater? Let me guess, it's not fair.
-
Originally posted by Shane
if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?
Almost everytime I try to log into the CT, I have to d/l a new map. I don't have the patience, with a dialup connection, so I go to MA, instead.
Pretty lame, huh?
-
Originally posted by slimm50
Almost everytime I try to log into the CT, I have to d/l a new map. I don't have the patience, with a dialup connection, so I go to MA, instead.
Pretty lame, huh?
hmm... perhaps HTC can put up the maps on the d/l page. problem with this tho' is maps get revised to tweak thinsg and players add skins, requiring a new d/l...
but i hope HTC will consider looking into it, that way you can d/l overnight or something.
i feel for your dialup, d/l's is where cable/dsl rule.
-
F4u
There has never been a set up where the niki fought the f4f, you are lying.
There has been plenty of late war pac stuff where the a6m5 fought every plane on the us side army and navy. The niki was whined away.
There have been setups where the f4u-1 fought against the a6m2.
So you are completely full of **** and dont have a clue. But go ahead and cling to that if it gets you through. :rolleyes:
'43 slot? when was the last time they ran a '43 slot? The last slot was a6m2s vrs f4fs. Is this what you are whining about?
On the okinawa setups the japanese have 5 fields, easily porked given the ord load of all the USN planes. They have a total of 8 afs including the 3 island fields to the west (18 19 20). The USN start 2 fleets with 4 cvs (that 8 cvs) 2 single cv fleets and 2 4 cruisers fleets. The japanese side only has the ki-67 that can possibly sink a cv. The rest of the Japaneses planes carry 250kg x 2 as max load out. CVS are either sunk of fully operational. The only times cvs are sunk is when some idiot admiral parks it off an enemy field and its sunk with sbs.
The flak over the cvs are incredible and when an admiral sails a fleet up to a friendly field some one will sink it.
The Okinawa set up is one of the best and draws in large numbers.
-
still.... wouldn't the FM2 be a great substitute for the f4f-3? I mean..... they use the fm2 for a buffalo substitute fer chrisakes.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Shane
if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?
I like to fly a variety of planes. Almost always, this includes rides like 190a5, p51d, typhoon. It would be an unusual CT setup that permitted me to do that.
As an aside, I suspect AH TOD will go the same way as the CT: Initial enthusiasm and then slackening participation.
I'll bet AHClassic will have 90% of the participants within 6 months. :)
Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy "squad ops" (used to be TOD), but more than once a week would grow stale in a big hurry.
curly
-
I asked for complete control of the CT once....Skuzzy had to hang up due to laughter.
-
Originally posted by AKcurly
I like to fly a variety of planes. Almost always, this includes rides like 190a5, p51d, typhoon. It would be an unusual CT setup that permitted me to do that.
curly
Being able to fly a variety of planes is one of the best things about the CT. At times, the 202, 110c, Hurri I, F4F, P-51D, or 109G-2 can be very competitive and fun to fly. It's hard to get into a plane rut because the set changes every week.
In the CT, planes can be effectivly flown using the their historical tactics. Sure, sometimes you'll still see P-47s furballing low and waves of KI-67s dive bombing CVs. However, you at least get a better sense of how each plane stacked up against some of its historical opponents.
eskimo
-
Batz,
The F4F is an FM-2 just as a TBM and TBF are the same and F4U and FG-1 are the same. The FM-2 is a hell of alot closer to the F4F-4 than the KI-67 is to the Betty.
And yes the NIK2 is frequently matched against it.
And for the record.
You are saying that you have not excluded the F4U from the Solomon campains because it's not "fair"?
And in Okinawa you had it set so a F6F and F4U could only fly off of one carrier at a time. Not both, why? Not fair?
-
Fm2 is not the same as an f4f-4 and when the the fm2 is in the ct it doesnt face the niki alone. Post one ct set up where thats true.
I can post many of the pac setups where the a6m5 was it against the entire us plane set. Every other person in ah claims a Navy squad. There are few that fly japanese planes. Pac set ups that dont account for some level of parity are empty. Its no fun chasing runners about.
I am not on the ct staff and havent been for a year. Theres like 5 guys that are ct cms, sell your desired set up to them. I never would have bought it when I was on the ct staff and I am pretty sure brady and possibly fork wont buy it either. But try the other guys.
The only time the f4u-1 was in the slot map was when it faced the a6m2. Folks would fly it three sectors to club baby seals. It was only added to defend hq to begin with.
The tbf had different guns then the tbm-3. So did the sbd-3 have different guns then the sbd-5. Thats what widewing wont tell ya and thats whet you are denying here. The type 99 mk 1s in ah lose 40% of their lethality at 180 yrds. An a6m2 fighting an f4u-1 is 0 fun. You have to close inside 200 yrds on a plane thats 50 mph faster and then you only get 120 rounds. Comparing the "peggy" to any of that is nonsense.
The complaint about the peggy is its guns, the betty would be armed similiarly so whats the problem? Certainly the peggy is closer to the betty then the ju-88. Its not like you ever have to attack the bombers anyway.
In okinawa the us carriers would be unsinkable but for how the "admirals" choose to use them. Its has nothing to do with fair. I always see plenty of f6fs and f4us of all types when I flew in the Okinawa map. The fleets even when sunk only start 2 and a half sector south of okinawa. A fleet travels 1/3 rd a sector in 12 min. Its not like it remains out of action for the day. It sux for both sides when a cv sunk because it usually ends a good fight.
In the current Scenario "Operation Iceberg" theres every f4u in ah in the event. Same with the fm2. The difference is in how events are structured that make the plane match ups fun. In an open anything goes arena like the ct there is no "historical" gameplay. Folks arent in the ah military and they wont suffer through some un-fun set up even if the plane match ups are "historical". With out fun "historical" is meaningless to 90% of the players.
Ofcourse you can tout how fun it would be clubbing a6m2s out of the air in an f4u-1 but thats easy from the f4u-1s pit.
like I said maybe one of the ct cms will buy it.
-
Originally posted by Shane
if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?
Honestly... I usually forget it's there. Always have a good time in the CT, but not a "great" time. I think I'd like the CT better if the whole planeset was available based on an Allied/Axis approach, or not.. .I dunno.
...hmmm, a really neato idea (considering the Hugenormous maps available) might be geographic areas for early/mid/late war stuff.... well, probably not big enough maps but it would be neat.
-
Batz,
1. Substituting a FM-2 for a F4F is to great a leap but a Ki-67 for a Betty is not?
2. Who cares if the FM-2 vrs NIK2 match is alone or not. It happens all the time. And Since you refused to allow the F4U to be flown off ground bases but you would have the FM-2 fly from ground bases. Why? I don't think the FM-2 ever fought from a ground station and the F4U did. I guess it is more fun for you to vulch FM-2 Huh?
3. The F4U vrs A6M2/5 is one of the most historic matches of WW2. Think anyone who read the Black Sheep Squadron or Jolly Rodgers would want to fly it? It's not up to you and your fairness meter. It's not fair that one ping from a 20mil in AH knocks your wing off. Maybe you should disable cannons in the CT? Turn the ack off of the fleet so you can bomb it easier.
4. No F4U-1C's were allowed? Why, not fair? Don't like cannons shells hitting your NIK2? And the C-hog was at Okinawa. What is your excuse for that?
With out fun "historical" is meaningless to 90% of the players.
No wonder you fly Axis. You think just like them. The fun police must follow the fun rules, screw history. 90% really? Why don't you let the players decide what they want instead of you telling us. You said the Okinawa campain was one of the most flown. Why? Because people are dying to fly NIK2's in the CT? Use your head.
-
You're not upset are ya?
-
I join the CT only when BOB is up. The setup is challanging on both sides and seems fair to me. All the other maps/setting turn into a gangbang. Especially the Pac maps as Axis.
-
my experience in the CT is not alot, but....
[LIST=1]
- it sounds silly but i HATE yak's and they ALWAYS seem to be what i'm up against.
- i find some of the planesets limiting. meaning not always best suited for the role. (ie. 109g6 instead of a g2 vs spit V.. where the 109g2 would be a much better matchup)
- if its supposed to be "historic" whay are there gangbangs going on mostly (from my time in there) no orginization to the "war"
other than that i just dont wanna be told what i can and cant fly since i'm paying to have fun and escape from the real world.
-
Cry all ya want but you are wrong. I have nothing to do with the CT setups.
Whats the differences between the peggy and betty? You tell me whats so "unbalancing". Bombers for both sides for the most part have no impact in the slot setups. Do you even know how hard it is to capture a field? The boston iii used by the allies in that setup is much faster below 15k then the peggy. All Japanese planes carry a similiar load and the peggy and betty are similiarly gunned. Like widewing you ignore the benefits gained by the allies due to a mostly late war planeset and as soon as the axis get a similiar sub something must be done to change it.
"Too many nikis blah blah blah...."
"The peggy is to hard blah blah blah"...
In Operation Iceberg Scenario the chog and the f4u-4 are there even though their impact of the battle was minimal. Were the chog to be added in the open ct arena thats all you would see folks flying. The would have a greater impact on gameplay then the 200 or so had in rl. You keep ignoring "gameplay". Balancing the overwhelming jabo capability of the usn planeset is neccessary because of the limited number of airfield on Okinawa itself. If cant believe that unlimited navy planes from every base would unbalance the weeks fun you are havent been paying attention.
I can see how you would want a chog against a a6m5 or ki-61 etc. Like I said every 2nd guy in ah claims a usn squad. Theres a reason for that. The best of the usn planes are modelled.
Be pissed all you want it still wont make a6m2s vrs f4u-1s fun no matter how historical you claim it to be.
Sunking is right if the ct cm doesnt create conditions tht allow the fight to develop then its nothing more then a pork/auger gangbang that is little fun for one side.
The fun police must follow the fun rules, screw history. 90% really?
I'll start a poll.....
How many folks fly ah/main/ct/events for fun?
How many dont care about fun as long as its historical?
Onething "historical" means nothing in terms of gameplay. Some "historical" plane matchups are fun, some arent. Which do you think will attract more players?
-
Originally posted by Batz
Fm2 is not the same as an f4f-4 and when the the fm2 is in the ct it doesnt face the niki alone. Post one ct set up where thats true.
The only time the f4u-1 was in the slot map was when it faced the a6m2. Folks would fly it three sectors to club baby seals. It was only added to defend hq to begin with.
The tbf had different guns then the tbm-3. So did the sbd-3 have different guns then the sbd-5. Thats what widewing wont tell ya and thats whet you are denying here. The type 99 mk 1s in ah lose 40% of their lethality at 180 yrds. An a6m2 fighting an f4u-1 is 0 fun. You have to close inside 200 yrds on a plane thats 50 mph faster and then you only get 120 rounds. Comparing the "peggy" to any of that is nonsense.
Well, let's examine the facts, the real facts.
Early in the conflict and for as long as they were flyable, F4F-3s served with both the Marines and the Navy. Initially, it the primary model available. In terms of performance, the F3F-3 climbs to 15k in 5.3 minutes, the FM-2 in 6.1 minutes. Best speed goes to the F4F-3 which hits 335 mph vs 320 for the FM-2. Agility is about equal, with the F4F-4 notably behind. So, when someone suggests subbing the FM-2 for the F4F-3, they are actually asking for an aircraft that was somewhat inferior to that which was actually in service.
As to the SBD-3 having different guns than the SBD-5... Nonsense.
Deliveries of the SBD-3 began in March of 1941, and it was armed with twin fifties from day one. Sources are clear on this.
Early TBF-1s were armed with a single cowling mounted forward firing .50, later bumped up to twin fifties in the TBF-1C (wing mounted). So, the single gun mounted near centerline was upgraded to a pair in the wings that had to be harmonized.
So, that's your whole argument, one additional gun added to the TBF, making it a super-deadly dogfighter and bad bellybutton strafing monster, right?
Furthermore, how does the type 99 lose effectiveness at 180 yards? Is there a secret AH sound barrier or something? Lethality is a function of energy and explosive power, and relatively little energy is lost at just 180 yards, and explosive power is unaffected by range. Had you stated that accuracy degrades beyond 180 yards, you may have a case.
So far, I haven't seen anything from you except inept arguments supported by defective "facts", stretched to the absolute limit of credibility. Please, tell us once again why the SBD-5 and TBM-3 are so detrimental to the scenario, but the Ki-67 is perfectly acceptable, I need a laugh.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Batz,
First things first.
1. The NIK2 is a dweeb plane in the MA. It is twice that in the CT.
2. For someone who fly's the NIK2 to complain about the C-Hog is really well, in bad taste. Especially since like in every other senario some perk cost is assigned to fly a higher performance plane ie La-7 or 109G10. And how is the C-Hog imbalancing when flown against the NIK2?
And as a historic note do you know how many NIK2's were built? About as many as there were C-Hogs. And most of the C-Hogs built were at Okinawa.
Again when your wrong historically you call it fun. And when it's not fun you call it historic.
Well it's not fun fighting NIK2's in FM-2's.
And as you said.
If cant believe that unlimited navy planes from every base would unbalance the weeks fun you are havent been paying attention.
Well land bases fly Marine A/C (F4U) and the Navy fly's FM-2's. So I'm not asking for unlimited Navy planes, just the right Marines ones.
So that is not fun or historic is it?
-
TBF/TBM-1 had poor forward firepower. There was a single .30 caliber gun in the cowling. In 1943, this gun was eliminated and a .50 caliber gun was installed in each wing.
The slot map is august 42.
I thought the ah sbd-5 had rear firing 50s, just checked they are 30s.
But I never said I had a problem with them. What I said was you have np flying ac that are later models and up gunned but raise hell about the peggy. A plane that really has no impact except as a suicide fleet killer.
The fm2 has better performance at lo alt then the f4f-3 in terms of speed and climb where most fights take place in the ct. By august 42 most f4f-3s were re-placed with f4f-4. So an august 1942 slot map is quite "historical" with the f4f-4. Are you saying the a6m2 is to unbalancing facing the f4f-4?
F4u said that the niki has been set up to fight the f4f/fm2 in the ct. No it hasnt. Setups have included both the fm2 and niki but as parts of a larger planeset. In finrus you can fly a hurri 1 against an la5fn. That doesnt mean the cms forced a hurri 1 vrs la5fn match up.
The peggy is a closer sub for the betty then the ju88 anyway you look at it. In terms of defensive guns and bomb load.
G4M2 Model 22, which first flew in late 1942. It had 2 1,800 hp (1342 kW) Mitsubishi MK4P Kasei 21 engines. The initial version of the G4M2 had an additional 20mm cannon. Other variants included the G4M2 Model 22A with four 20mm cannon and two 7.7mm machine-guns, and the G4M2 Model 22B, which differed from the 22A only in the type of cannon installed.
Maximum speed 271 mph; initial climb 1,380 feet per minute;
service ceiling approx 30,000 feet
The peggy is at max 40mph faster. Below 15k its can be caught by the f4f but bombers only bug you if you bug them. Its not like a peggy could close a field especially the ones in the slot terrain. The peggy isnt "unbalancing".
A ju88 while easier to kill has far greater potential, with its 6k + bomb load, to impact the set up.
F4u
We dont have a real land war in ah. Ground targets of all types are easily spotted and hit and destroyed and their impact on gameplay is great. A single chog can shut down a whole base. What happens is with the limited bases all getting porked its no fun. I dunno what else to tell you.
Thats what would happen. To control the flow and incidences like this the cms who ran the Okinawa set up decided that by placing certain planes at certain cvs would make for more fun. As I said I always have seen f6fs, fm2s, and f4us of different types all over the okinawa map. The map scale is I think 1 to 1,5. The cv based planes are in reach of anything on okinawa so who cares if a plane is at 1cv or 6? Its not like the return trip takes hours.
Its not like cvs get sunk by aircraft left and right. I sank half a 4 cv fleet 1 time while in a 37mm gun. Convince the allied admirals not to put his cv in range of the land based guns and they will stay afloat.
In the AH scenario Operation Iceberg where the missions and "gameplay" are more historical the chog, the f4u-1, f4u-4 all have their place. In an open arena the chog like it did in the main would have a far greater impact then it did historically. While this is true of the niki there is only 4 japanese fighters. There were ki-84s at okinawa as well while the niki is a poor sub its better then nothing. Theres still 2 other version of the f4u to fly in that set up.
-
Originally posted by Batz
TBF/TBM-1 had poor forward firepower. There was a single .30 caliber gun in the cowling. In 1943, this gun was eliminated and a .50 caliber gun was installed in each wing.
The slot map is august 42.
According to Grumman records, beginning with serial number 00548, TBF-1s switched to to a single .50 cal forward firing gun. This particular aircraft was delivered on June 22, 1942. I don't know which unit received this aircraft, but VT-8 (operating from Henderson Field) did operate several TBFs with later serial numbers during September thru November of 1942 (probably received as replacements in September).
Personally, I enjoy flying the SBD as a fighter. Flown with maximum aggression, it is a very dangerous enemy. Turning ability is on par with the F4F-4, and visibility is much better. Most pilots don't take it seriously until it's tethered to their tail chewing up their fighter, and at this point it's too late.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Setup for Friday, Sept. 5th.........
Tunisia terrain
Non-historical setup
Allies: Bishops
Axis: Knights
Planesets:
(Landbased)
Axis:
C202
C205
Me-109G2
Me-109G6
Me-110C
Me-110G2
Ju-88
FW-190A5
FW-190F8
C-47
Ju-87
PNZR
M8
M16
M3
Allies:
A-20 "Boston"
A-20G
P-47D11
P-47D25
P-40E
Typhoon
Hurricane Mk II (4 x 20mm)
Spit IX
C-47
PNZR
M8
M16
M3
Naval aircraft/vehicles:
Axis:
Me-109E4
Me-109F4
Ju-87
Allies:
FM2 (US and British fleets)
SBD (US fleets only)
TBM (US and British fleets)
Seafire (for the British fleets)
LVT's available for both sides.
PT boats available for both sides.
Fuel bunker hardness increased slightly.
City and VH downtimes decreased to 10 minutes.
Radar settings CT normals.
Note: To arrange the fleets and their corresponding ports with the desired owners, there are some airbases that will be CLOSE together.
Ostwind and Tiger will not be enabled this setup.
NOTE: Rook HQ and A13 are in the southwest corner of the map. Do NOT capture A13. It will reset the arena and cause nothing but headaches for your fellow Combat Theater participants.
As always, remember this is a game. Please conduct yourselves as gentlemen (and ladies if applicable) at all times. Good natured taunting and banter is okay, but repetitive and/or obnoxious language/rants/smack is discouraged.
Thanks!
-
Originally posted by AKcurly
I like to fly a variety of planes. Almost always, this includes rides like 190a5, p51d, typhoon. It would be an unusual CT setup that permitted me to do that.
Your variety of planes is limited to late war models. Broaden your horizons!
- oldman