Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Halo on August 27, 2003, 12:53:16 PM
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Finally it all came together. FINALLY got a heavy F4U (50% fuel, two 1k bombs, 8 rockets) off a carrier. It was easy. Just:
1. Start engine.
2. Mess around with brakes and hook and throttle until released.
3. Let plane roll all the way back to the last line on the deck.
4. Flaps 50%.
5. Full throttle, then WEP.
6. Veer right, very steady.
7. Jettison all excess equipment including liferaft.
8. Check wet spinning wheels for fishing nets.
9. Raise gear.
10. Flaps up.
11. WEP off.
12. Sprain arm patting self on back.
13. Next time take heavy Hellcat.
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now do it with 100% fuel. :)
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LOL Halo..well put
You can however get a fully loaded DHog off the deck without backing up. I do it on a regular basis.
Have film showing how if you are interested. NO tricks or slight of hand :)
Hvy DHog..100% Fuel 2 1000lb bombs and 8 rockets. Works every time. (Also FBFalcon I believe has film of same).
RTR
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You gotta be kidding. Chauncy, roll the film, please.
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I Have no way to host the film here Halo.
However, I can send it to you if you like. Just need your email addy.
Cheers,
RTR (have one with a heavy Hellcat as well if you are interested).
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Its not all that difficult to do.
You don't even need wep.
Easy way:
100% fuel, 2k bombs, rockets
No flaps
Go to full power(use wep)
Begin dropping flaps just after you start moving.
When you leave the deck, immediatly raise your gear
Do not attempt to climb, or even maintain altitude, all you need to do is slow your descent so you dont hit the water.
The key is to remember that the plane is going to fall off the end of the CV like a brick, and to let it fall(Just stop from hitting the water)
http://death.innomi.com/uploads/f4u1dheavy.zip
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Yep, what Innominate described and showed in the film.
You could also start a gentle turn to the right immediately off the deck as well. (will help you with the torque a bit).
Cheers,
RTR
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You can also trim to counter the torque before you start your roll and use the brakes to hold you in place until your engine revs to full power.
The whole feeling of basically falling off the deck and into flight is pretty disconcerting though. It's not really flying at all, it's more like just controlling your descent enough to not smack the water.
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Thanks, guys -- good advice and good film. I actually DID take off Corsair with 100% fuel, rockets, and two 1kers from cv.
However, only after pranging in another dozen, and the pouty people at Chance Vought refusing to send me one more F4U until the skipper guaranteed I wouldn't make any more artificial reefs with them.
I did try all sorts of things to understand exactly what needed to be done. I succeeded only with full flaps (past even the last indicator, must be world's deepest flaps), WEP, and -- letting it roll back to the end of the deck first.
I still find it hard to believe that the real Corsairs were that hard to get off a carrier.
Or, for that matter that the Corsair was regarded as such a hotshot and used so long after WWII.
It does not seem that formidable in Aces High. Many other fighters can lunch on it in a dogfight.
Oh well, still very satisfying to finally launch a max hvy F4U from a cv. Thanks again for the coaching.
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the D is one of the best fighters in AH.. I can land multiple kills and almost guarntee ill kill sumthin everytime i go up in it. Although it is a fairly fast plane, it can out rudder most.. Most of my kills are enemy trying a slight climb then rudderin nose over... The F4u-1d can usually rudder inside for the shot....JUST DONT MISS!!!!
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I have found that keeping the hog fast is the key.
Under 250 it tends to wallow around. But get it to 250 mph and it turns into a ballerina. It will roll almost as well as a FW.
Used to fly the DHog quite a bit, and got quite a few kills with it.
I have discovered though, that the F4U1 seems to perform a little better. (a bit lighter i think).
Yep great Rudder control :)
cheers,
RTR
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I've flown the D-Hog quite a bit, it's a wonderful aircraft once you learn how to handle it. It has some serious strengths that you can exploit over many other aircraft but you want to make sure you stay within your aircrafts performance and not let someone else dictate the style of fight to you. Stay fast, use the excellent ballistics of the .50s, the superior roll rate to most aircraft, and pack lots of energy. The Hog hides energy so well in mass (like the P-47) that you can shock people with zoom-climbs or dropping like a comet with full control.
There is nothing like lag-turning with a Zero, poping a notch of flap, pulling lead, and blowing him to hell.... he'll whine about "the Zero should out-turn the F4U" but forgets about the physics and geometry of the situation. Sweet.
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"...hides energy so well in mass ..." I like that, Soda. Great description of a massive hunk of virulent energy plummeting down to dominate.
Oh the humanity ....
On the opposite spectrum, tonight in CT played Shrink The Circle in ocean up to our knees in a Super Wildcat against a Hurri. WEP, flaps, gear, couldn't see for the salt spray.
Finally we wobbled away in a draw until he stalled and crashed. Hey, I'll take a victory any way it comes.
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My favorite F4U trick is to chase someone in a dive, and when they turn, drop my gear and flaps, slipping inside thier turn radius for a nice easy gunshot. This is especially good against spitnikla7's who expect to be able to out-turn you easily.
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The F4U actually has a better instantanious turn than most. In combat test with flaps it could with an A6M5 for a quarter turn with flaps or until the speed drops below 175Knots.
As far as getting of the deck I have posted quite a bit about this.
There are a couple of reasons for the bad takeoff IMHO.
1. The deck length is correct but we are not given enough of it. According to HT about 540FT.
2. The stall speed of the F4U (and many others) with flaps is to high. I have also discussed this with HT and I believe it will be addressed in AH2.
It all sits on AH2 now kids. I don't think AH will be changed anytime soon. One other subtle factor that plays a huge roll is fuel consumption. F4U's and F6F's had long legs but A/C like 109's and La7's did not. For some reason there has been a swing and a miss with the burn rates not beong equal. Many A/C are effected by this.
Also not having to lift off with 720lbs of ammo would be nice. 2400rnds is overkill.
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F4UDOA can you elaborate on the fuel consumption a bit? I spend a good amount of time in the Hellcat but when I do take up either the C/D model Corsair I'm always surprised by how fast it burns through its tanks, particularly if you're on the WEP a lot. Like you said, my understanding was both the Corsair and Hellcat were supposed to have long legs -- but w/o DTs I'm usually frustrated with the "fighting time" the Corsair gives me.
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Hornet,
Sure, I was in a rush during may last post so I didn't make much sense.
First
It is not the duration of the F4U that is porked first of all. At mil power the F4U and Hellcat drink a ton of fuel. Approximately 290 gallons per hour. So the F4U-1D had 237 gallons internal and the Hellcat has 250. So at that power setting it was good for less than an hour. At a 2 to 1 it is good for about 20 + minutes in the MA which is what we have.
So follow this.
All engines have something called an SFC. Specific fuel consumption.
It is how much fuel an engine uses to create 1 horsepower per hour. The R2800's sfc is actually a very efficient engine at it's best SFC rating which as in all engines is in min cruise power setting. This gets much worse when you run at full power. For instance the SFC of the F4U and F6F is .44 at min cruise (best) and .870 at sea level at mil power it's worst SFC.
Here is the porking.
The La-7 has an inferior engine to the R-2800. It is essentially a copy of what went in to the F4F which was a Wright Cyclone 1800 series. It had less cylinders than the R-2800 but produced high HP.
The La-7's engine had about the same SFC as the R2800 at it's best cruise. However in AH that SFC never changes to represent the fuel consumption at mil power or at combat power. And remember the LA-7 carried less than half of the fuel that the F4U/F6F did.
So in AH an A/C that carried 122 gallons of fuel has greater duration than A/C that carried more than twice that amount at the same time the La-7 is generating 75% as much HP as the R2800 at mil power.
So what AH is telling you is that in 1943 the Russians could build an engine that was better than 50% more efficient at producing HP as the R2800 which to this day is the benchmark for Aircooled engines in Aviation.
How does this hurt you.
Well if you want to fight the La-7 on equal terms (duration with 100% fuel) you have to carry in a F6F 1500lbs of fuel and the La-7 732lbs. So you get to carry an extra 700+lbs on your back during combat. Believe me the F6F would fly like the La-7 if it were 700lbs lighter.
I believe this is true for the 109G10 (2000HP and 106 gallons of fuel)as well as other high HP small fuel load A/C in AH.
The answer should be IMHO to correct fuel consumption in all A/C and then probably change the multiplier to 1.5. At 2.0 in reality the La-7 should have a duration of about 10 minutes.
In the end carrying less fuel would help you get off the deck easier as well.
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I see your point now and that change would definitely affect the MA particularly on the large maps. Thanks for the explanation F4UDOA, great stuff as always.
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F4UDOA,
If your calculations are correct how much flight time would you say an LA-7 should have with a full tank of gas?
Ren
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At a 2 to 1 fuel burn ratio in the MA, about 10 minutes.
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I'm sorry. I think I might have mistated the question. Without a comparison to any other aircraft and using your calculations what flight time should be available to an LA-7 taking off with a full tank of gas?
Thanks
Ren
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Hmm,
I think I got it right.
You are asking what would the flight time be in an La-7 taking off with a full tank of gas in the MA. Porobably about 10 to 15 minutes tops.
This is because if you caompare the amount of fuel required to create 1650HP in real life that would give the pilot about 25 minutes flight time based on research done a few months back. In the MA that would not leave you much time at all.
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So what your saying is that the F4u is porked. I agree !! La-7's are overmodeled !! I agree !! YAY YAY !!! ...o time for lunch...
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Half right. The F4U is not porked in the fuel consumption arena.
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F4,
The key here is flying a full military power. So in AH is there a cruise setting that works well for the D model?, or is that the problem? From what I have seen of people's testing with MAN and RPM settings, it varies alot from plane to plane. I myself prefer flying in blue steel, so what are your recommendations for F4u-1 and D model cruise settings? It would be nice to see those that fly the high RPM, low fuel aircraft to have to smartly allocate their consumption.
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Yorba,
It would not bother me to fly at max continious power or cruise for fuel economy.
It just strikes me odd that so many A/C in here can tool around at full mil power without ever having to worry about fuel.
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Ouch. So you're saying the Russions fielded a plane that could only fly a grand total of 25 minutes, which included take off, climb to the fight (or look for the enemy), dogfight, either limp home fly home and land? And under firewall conditions, around 10-15 minutes. How did they accomplish anything using this plane?
Thanks
Ren
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Ouch. So you're saying the Russions fielded a plane that could only fly a grand total of 25 minutes, which included take off, climb to the fight (or look for the enemy), dogfight, either limp home fly home and land? And under firewall conditions, around 10-15 minutes. How did they accomplish anything using this plane?
Thanks
Ren
just to pop in here .... the La7 didnt have oxygen at all... so it didnt have to climb above 10k (couldnt for pilot would die of asxyphiation)
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Yorba,
It would not bother me to fly at max continious power or cruise for fuel economy.
It just strikes me odd that so many A/C in here can tool around at full mil power without ever having to worry about fuel.
Funny thing about that. Your experience within the game shows your comfort level. I have been in an offline conversation concerning fuel burns, etc.
It's interesting to note the newbys take a while to learn fuel management. Not only just having enough to carry so you get home but to carry what you think you need to get the job done. What's easy for us concerning fuel management is a whole new world to them.
What makes it tougher is skill level equals the amount of gas you carry. For example, a newby may take a full tank of gas and die 10 minutes into his flight many times.
Alternatively, a newby may take a full tank of gas and run out of ammo 10 minutes into his flight. Now he has 50 minutes of fuel left and nothing to shoot with.
Or he may take a quarter or even a half tank and run out of gas with half his ammo load still intact.
Ren
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Heya DamnedRen,
I have some documents provided by Tilt that shows very specific flight duration from Soviet test.
There was a very long thread a while back concerning this but I don't have the document handy. But from what I remember the duration at full power was extremely short.
I also read recently that the La-7 WEP could only be used for two minutes at a time.
And yes fuel management is and shoild be a big part of the game. I have brought this up a number of times in different threads. I have a knack for upsetting management in HTC however so I will wait before bringing this one back up.
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F4UDOA,
I agree with you but I have a tendency to look at fuel management as more of a part of the stategic picture and not a tacitical one. Tactically speaking I always know my fuel state and when to head for the barn, just as you do. I also know what fuel capacity my plane fights the best with. From a gaming stand point carrying gas in DT's do the same job that loading up a tank does. So if the fuel burns differences are off it really isnt goin to effect my fun in a dogfight.
Ren:)
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To come back to the original question : I only manage to take off with totally loaded up F4U-D (2x1k bomb, 8 rockets 100% fuel) when rolling back, full flaps and WEP.
NEVER managed it any other way. Is may be possible but no matter what I tried (trim, subtle rudder inputs, lifting tail early, whatever) doesn't seem to work. Some people may manage it though but I can't figure it out. So I'll take the long route... that works fine.
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Might as well add my bit to this, I find the biggest problem getting a heavy Dhog off a CV is it dropping the left wing. I find full up Elevator trim and about half right airliron (sp)? trim sorts it out. I really struggle without wep though but basically full power, hit wep, start dropping flaps and get the gear up as soon as you leave the deck.
Here's a film of me doing it 3 times in a row (Just to prove it was not a fluke) ;) No rolling back just straight out of the tower.
Heavy D Hog off CV About 400k (http://www.snafu.clara.net/anythinggoes/HvyF4offCV.ahf)
One of the tasks Vmf323 have to do to earn their wings is take a fully loaded D Hog of a CV and land it fully loaded 3 times without crashing and without backing up. The take offs are a breeze, It's landing heavy that I have nightmares about.
TTFN
snafu