Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hristo on September 21, 2000, 04:03:00 AM
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After every known and unknown US plane gets modeled, maybe it is time for cool aircraft actually :
(http://www.iencentral.com/warbirds/new_images/wb3art/fw190d_4.jpg)
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You guys already got a 450 mph 109. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hristo, we have an AH 51 antidote already: Yak-9U!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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All P 51D has to do against our 450 mph 109 is to point the nose down and dive away, Funked.
Leonid, Yaks did not fight P 51s in WW2 (with few notable exceptions).
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When are you going to post pictures of some ?
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Originally posted by funked:
You guys already got a 450 mph 109. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Adn you allies already have F4u, so where do you need TBM and F6?-)
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I'm tired of hearing about the D9 HTC! Give it to them and shut them up already! I'll fight the sucker in a bloody 202, I ain't afraid of no D9 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
:P
ts
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Ah Tshred, you don't understand (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Its the never ending Luftwaffe thread...
You give them the D9, then its the D12
Give them the D12, then they want the 109K6 or 109K8
Then its the 262... after that its the 163
And after they get all that, the Grandaddy of them all will be revealed... the V2
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Yes, Tshred, you tell them !
They should stop modeling those butt ugly US planes already.
What would be next ? P 51A ? P 51B ? A 26 something ? Maybe some ultra late Jug for a US kid ?
Too bad P 39 and P 40 would not be competitive here. Otherwise they'd already be here.
But underdog role is, of course, reserved already. Too many early 109 and Spitfire versions.
P.S.
Fishu, feels like old times. Let's push it some more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Verm, you forgot the Go 229.
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don't be knockin the p39 and p40 hristo...
I'll have to lay the smack down with my 202 on ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I fly mostly LW planes! Ya Know?
IMHO we don't need the D9.
The 109 G-6, G-10 and the FW190A5 can handle the P51 and F4U just fine! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Preach on Brother Swager!!
Cobra
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Whats going to happen when you get your D9 and you still can't kill a 51?
Bring it on HTC....I grow weary of the whining regarding the LW shortcomings...give them their precious D9 so I can kill it!
Hristo...you haven't changed in all these years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm Out!
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Introducing such a pretty D9 while still in beta? Is just a gratuitous attempt to steal our hard earned lufwabble dollars away from AH. ....
"If you build it, they will come.."
Dr Kurt Tank.
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Hey! What's with all the late war uber planes in WB III ?
<g,d,rlh>
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If I don't see Fw190D-9 soon, I must begin question whether HT and Co. is afraid of losing allied customers due to fact that over confident average american customer gets beaten by 'bad' low life german plane and therefore thinks AH as bad investment... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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If I don't see Fw190D-9 soon, I must begin question whether HT and Co. is afraid of losing allied customers due to fact that over confident average american customer gets beaten by 'bad' low life german plane and therefore thinks AH as bad investment
I know you said that as a joke but deep down you feel it to be true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
what about those AH flyers like me who have no particular agenda and fly the entire planeset just for the challenge and fun of it?
what of the no skill dweeb flock that migrates like sheep to the most powerful plane they can find and switches plane to plane to keep flying the one they feel is most uber? ie: all the 190a5 dweebs now fly the f4u1c and before that flew the spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
just another latest greatest uber dweeb ride that the true LW fans will enjoy and fly with precision while an exorbant number of no skill dweebs will flock to it and zoom around running away like a runstang with cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Yes, yes, bring in the blinking Fw190D-9.
Sometimes I'll fly it, sometimes I'll kill it and sometimes I'll die to it.
Who cares.
I wonder why it is that there or so many more players who will only fly German aircraft than players who will only fly US, UK, Russian, Japanese or Italian aircraft? I prefer British and Japanese (apparently I like islands), but I fly American and German aircraft as well.
This seems to be portrayed as a German (they arrogantly claim it to be Axis, but never call for more Italian or Japanese aircraft) vs. Allies (although they seem to only refer to American aircraft) issue, what I think that is the truth is that it is a issue of those who fly German aircraft (and only German) vs. everybody else (most of us fly anything). They want to have the best aircraft, in all ways, be German. That way they don't have to grab a B-17 or Lancaster to attack the HQ, grab a Spitfire or Zero to turn, ect. They would be able to stay completely within their chosen fold.
Thats the real issue.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Leonid, Yaks did not fight P 51s in WW2 (with few notable exceptions).
True - but 109s didn't fight Corsairs either, so what's your point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ?
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Originally posted by Citabria:
what about those AH flyers like me who have no particular agenda and fly the entire planeset just for the challenge and fun of it?
I fly also alot different planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Japanese planes are perhaps only ones that I don't fly much.
No fun to fly same plane all the time.. I don't like that sort of routine.
(well.. I did like once with Fw190A-8, but overall that was very stressing)
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All the A5 dweebs will have a hard time adjusting to D9... bring it.
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/d9.jpg)
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BEAT DOWN POSSE
www.theregulators.org/bdp
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps
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Fw190D9 with MW50?...
See my sig (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But I dont see it in AH in a near future (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
wish I am wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ram, out
Erg/JG26 homepage (http://users3.50megs.com/staga/ram/acesindex.htm)
I WANT THIS PLANE!!!!!!!
(http://www.airtel.net/hosting/0003d/ebringas/ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-21-2000).]
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they want the D9 so they can run away faster then they can now :0
whels
Originally posted by Cobra:
Preach on Brother Swager!!
Cobra
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Originally posted by whels1:
they want the D9 so they can run away faster then they can now :0
whels
Allies have taught this lesson very well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Actually, its suprising since I am one of those "Allied" (ie US) pilots that I am all for the Dora, and always have been.
My bet is that any Dora we get though will be a non-MW50 version. Just a personal feeling based upon several things on the BBS, and a look at the current planeset and how it was built since early beta.
My question... what happened to all those die hard Luftwaffe aficinado's from 1.03 that were flying the "realistic" 190A5 ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) They seem to have evaporated & been replaced by N1K2's and Spitfires !!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Query results:
The Fw 190A-5 has 187 kills and has been killed 161 times against the P-51D.
Seems there is already a P-51 antedote?
AKDejaVu
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Well Hristo, who wants another butt ugly German plane? A lot of the German planes are really cool looking but not what I would call pretty. We are of course talking about beauty and finding two people to completely agree on that is near impossible. I thought the D-9 was neat ride in WB, it ought to be a good one in here too.
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MarkAT
"It is not the critic who counts,
it is the man in the arena..."
Teddy Roosevelt
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LOL..
Looked; laffed; left.
There's ONE pony in this simm.. not two (like there are currently FW's) or four (like the 109's)..
And should you LW types get yer D9; gimmie a P51H.. the bird built to answer it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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I got yer P-51 antidote right here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
(http://www.aerofiles.com/boeguppy.jpg)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL..
Looked; laffed; left.
There's ONE pony in this simm.. not two (like there are currently FW's) or four (like the 109's)..
And should you LW types get yer D9; gimmie a P51H.. the bird built to answer it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
If LW would stuck into two types of each serie, they would have one 109 and 190...
Sounds pretty idiotic when those planes were most versatile planes in the war history (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hello all
I justed killed 4 planes from 4 different country see for yourself.
(http://www.egroups.com/files/airwolves-ah/bashkills4.gif)
(left to right) p51,d9,n1k2,yak9u
so you see all those planes are nothing ! hehe oh i used camel to kill them on take off
Bash Peace!!
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Go ahead and put in the D-9. it won't change anything.
It exists in AW, and is still inferior to the P-51D; only useful for running.
It exists in WB's, but is inferior to the P-51D; only useful for running.
Bring it into AH...it will still be worse thsn P-51D, and will only be useful for running.
People who like German planes (as opposed to liking anything with wings), seem to despise the fact that the P-51D was better than anything the Germans mamaged to field in decent quantities; they utterly hate the P-51D. Sounds like the real WW2-era Germans, if ya ask me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heck, they even think the Dora is the answer to the P-51D...much as Germans did back then, too.
The FW-190D-9 has a long history in online gaming. And always, without fail, the P-51D is the better plane. Not by much, but it IS better.
It isn't likely that there is some sort of global conspiracy out to make the D-9 look bad. More likely, the D-9 was not quite as good as the Pony....but very, very close.
J_A_B
on another note:
U.S. fighters currently in AH: P-51D, P-47D-30, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, P-38L (P-47D-25 is in Brazilian colors)
German fighters currently in AH: ME-109F, ME-109G6, ME-109G10, FW-190A5, FW-190A8. (G2 is in finnish colors)
How can it be said that the USA has too many fighters modeled, unless the GERMANS also have too many?
Wouldn't be fair to add a German fighter, unless an American fighter is added too :P
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Kill 2 birds with 1 stone! P-63
American/Russian very cool, competetive plane, never been modelled, data available...blah...blah... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Give them their 190-D9 they need it:
tour 7
spatula has 27 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the Fw 190A-5.
spatula has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the Fw 190A-8.
Besides, I might even fly it if its as fast as the stang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And also give us the Spit 14 to combat it.(troll...)
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-21-2000).]
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I'm with Wells (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bring on the P-63 KingCobra !!!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Tour 7:
stsanta has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Fw 190A-8 against the P-51D.
stsanta has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the Fw 190A-5 against the P-51D.
No problem once they stop running and start fighting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
This tour (and after v1.04, my k/d dropped from 4.5 to 2.2, and only recently has it begun to climb towards 3.4)
stsanta has 9 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Fw 190A-5 against the P-51D.
stsanta has 5 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Fw 190A-8 against the P-51D.
Admittely, I've only met Spatula a couple of times in the air; one memorable time he and his squad mate was z&b'ing us most skillfully, and after a furious and amazing fight, escaped unharmed.
But, the Dora would give us Luftwaffe 190 pilots something the allieds have had for a long time; high altitude performance and ok deckspeed.
Not sure I want it, because of the dweeb phenomenon. I remember 1.03 when suddenly there were millions of "new converts" who loved the LW for some obvious reason.
Now, there are some 190A5's up, very few A8's and not many G10's, and a number of G2's.
So, we need the D9, not because the planes we have now is bad, but because they lack performance in certain areas where the allied planes are very good. But let it be like an A8 that climbs a bit better, and has high altitude performance. That'd weed all the tsjhok and spheet dweebs out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Fishu:
If LW would stuck into two types of each serie, they would have one 109 and 190...
Sounds pretty idiotic when those planes were most versatile planes in the war history
Er, no.
The DeHavillind Mosquito far Far out does them in versatility.
Ju88 out does them as well.
Spitfire even outdoes them. Air superiority, bomber escort (ok, not very well, but neiter was the 109), ground attack and photo reconaisance.
Sisu
-Karnak
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LOL, lucky I'm on your side of the fence Spatula (and the rest of the Pony Express). I've stayed with the 190's since I started last October, and still love them, though you can find me winging with my squaddies in a Yak now also.
Hm.. the Dora... I'd love to have it too of course, but I'm in no hurry to ask for one. It won't make me a better pilot by virtue of it being a (subjective) better aircraft than the earlier 190s. What it really boils down to is that it doesn't matter to me right now... I'm having too much fun with the A5. Btw, is an A5 dweeb someone that just loves to fly it b/c 190s are their fav plane, or one that flies it just because it has some kind of an.. uberness? to it? i.e. is it still an insult, or just a nickname now that the A5 has been supposedly fixed?
mauser <--- still content.. thanks HTC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Spatula:
Give them their 190-D9 they need it:
tour 7
spatula has 27 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the Fw 190A-5.
spatula has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the Fw 190A-8.
Besides, I might even fly it if its as fast as the stang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And also give us the Spit 14 to combat it.(troll...)
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Pilots get the kills.. not the planes. Some planes make it slightly easier or slightly harder... but a good pilot can make a plane significantly more lethal.
AKDejaVu
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i got that beat
tour 8
Citabria has 4 kills and has been killed 1 time in the C.202 against the P-51D
Citabria has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the C.202 against the Fw 190A-5
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mauser there is nothing dweeby about the 190a5s any more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
all the uberdweeb ride no skill herd has migrated on to the f4u1c again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Er, no.
The DeHavillind Mosquito far Far out does them in versatility.
Ju88 out does them as well.
Spitfire even outdoes them. Air superiority, bomber escort (ok, not very well, but neiter was the 109), ground attack and photo reconaisance.
Sisu
-Karnak
I really didn't mean those are top 1 versatile..
by the way, mossie and ju88 really aren't fighters.
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Originally posted by Citabria:
Citabria has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the C.202 against the Fw 190A-5
SHUT UP YOU DAMNED!!!! YOU KNOW WHO THAT 190 WAS?????????!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...(I earned it for trying to outturn a C202 with a sligh E advantage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Go ahead and put in the D-9. it won't change anything.
It exists in AW, and is still inferior to the P-51D; only useful for running.
It exists in WB's, but is inferior to the P-51D; only useful for running.
Bring it into AH...it will still be worse thsn P-51D, and will only be useful for running.
People who like German planes (as opposed to liking anything with wings), seem to despise the fact that the P-51D was better than anything the Germans mamaged to field in decent quantities; they utterly hate the P-51D. Sounds like the real WW2-era Germans, if ya ask me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heck, they even think the Dora is the answer to the P-51D...much as Germans did back then, too.
The FW-190D-9 has a long history in online gaming. And always, without fail, the P-51D is the better plane. Not by much, but it IS better.
It isn't likely that there is some sort of global conspiracy out to make the D-9 look bad. More likely, the D-9 was not quite as good as the Pony....but very, very close.
J_A_B
on another note:
U.S. fighters currently in AH: P-51D, P-47D-30, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, P-38L (P-47D-25 is in Brazilian colors)
German fighters currently in AH: ME-109F, ME-109G6, ME-109G10, FW-190A5, FW-190A8. (G2 is in finnish colors)
How can it be said that the USA has too many fighters modeled, unless the GERMANS also have too many?
Wouldn't be fair to add a German fighter, unless an American fighter is added too :P
It is just about having other late war plane for LW also than just Me109G-10 and heavy Fw190A-8.
and what is quality / year of those US fighters compared to LW? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They might as well give P-51C, P-51B, P-47C...
f4u and P-47 has just two versions avail, then theres P-51 and P-38 which.
So, we have two german fighters that have been produced in some versions, but 4 different series of fighters in US side.
With F4u having significantly different C version and P47 slightly less different D-25 from D-30)
Give me 6x.50cal / 4x20mm option for Me109 anyday...
4x20mm anti-tank hispanos would go for tank and buff hunting while I would use .50 calibers for fighters.
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Originally posted by bashwolf:
hehe oh i used camel to kill them on take off
Bash Peace!!
Stop that, it makes me feel icky! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Year is almost irrevelant when discussing combat planes of WW2, because Europe had a two year head start over the USA and Japan in serious warplane development.
Look at it like this:
When a country is at peace, military budget for R&D is very, very small. However, if a country is at war, Research instantly gets a massive increase in budget.
This is why, in summer 1942, UK and spit9's, Germany had 109G's and FW's...and the USA had P-40E's.
I prefer to look at fighters this way:
How long did it take for a given type to get into service after its home country went to war:
Examples:
Spit XIV = early 1944 = 4.5 years after UK went to war
Bf-109F = early 1941 = 1.25 years after Germany went to war.
F6F = mid 1943 = 1.5 years after America went to war.
By this system, planes match up with each other much, much better. For example, the 109F and F6F are in the same company as each other....and in most sims they have comparible performance.
There are a few problems with my method--it isn't perfect. However, I feel it is a lot more fair (in terms of balance) than simply saying "since plane X was made in year Y, I want so-and-so from year Y too"
Any comparison based solely on year of intorduction is inerently unfair to USA, Japan, and to a lersser extent, SOviet Union.
On a unrelated note....you wouldn't want a P-51B because it actually performs slightly better than the D model (about 5 MPH faster, and lighter).
J_A_B
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Actually; the poor LW never did much more than slap an endless pile of accoutraments and engines in and on the only two decent planes they could make in numbers enuff to possibly be a deterrent to the allied bombers. (Hitlers 262 screwup notwithstanding)
The good ol US of A on the other hand; being at that time thickly populated with opportunists with airplane companys in their pockets and forwarned by 18 months of War in Europe... well; we all know how that came out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On a unrelated note....you wouldn't want a P-51B because it actually performs slightly better than the D model (about 5 MPH faster, and lighter).
Muahahhahaaaaaaaaa.. Yah. I know. Turns better, and has better accel. Thinner wing and fast as hell on the deck. Sure would be nice to see either a Mustang III in Polish colors with the Malcom Hood or Bud Andersons' P51B "Old Crow".
Surely, the LW need not fear a 4-Gun Pony. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang
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I think the sky nazi's should just shut up.... Did they not just get a Ju-88? mebe they forgot already... I don't care if they get a D9, I just get tired of hearing them CRY beacause they "Enemy" has a plane that is faster than theirs.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) (g10 catches p51 btw) They say all p51 has to do is put nose down and dive away... yup , that is the price u pay for flying at 35k in your g10, fight at lower altitudes and u might have a better chance at overtaking your target b4 compression sets in......
Personally I love flying low and killing guys who our overconfident because they have 15,000 feet on me... only problem is the gang bangers who cant handle a fair fight, but that is just a symptom of the arena we have , where u can skip stones from on airfield to the next and are lead around by the nose with the arcade radar. I think the answer is not to give one group of pilots an UBER plane, but to make the arena better suited to all modes of play.
I think we should have an areana with small clusters of airfields separated my 100 mile(4 grids) areas of "no man's land" terrain, not covered by radar dots and "sector counters" where the true fighter pilot can hunt and kill as it was meant to be... Where SA, not watching the radar on your knee board, is the order of the day...
One more thing, Make sure when you do introduce the Dora, you have a little message window that pops up randomly when the Dora Dweeb clicks "fly".. the Message will say "Sorry , the 3rd Reich does not have enough petrol for you to go flying today, please try again in 24 hours!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Yes, Tshred, you tell them !
They should stop modeling those butt ugly US planes already.
Yeah, and start modeling russian planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) VVS need one capable buff at least. LW already has 5 billion of uber planes. No, I like it, they burn fine, but it is just too much smoke in the game already, every time I see them they start burning somehow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fariz
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Originally posted by Fariz:
Yeah, and start modeling russian planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yah, i say bring on the LA-7. I reckon that would be a great pony antidote (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The best pony antidote is allready here and is russian, the yak. These planes scare me more than the g10...
Santa, pitty i didnt get that scrap on film was one of the best fights ever (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-21-2000).]
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I think coyote has a poor grasp on reality. An an even weaker grasp on simulation.
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well LW pilots are crap we sux we whine
but this crap players buting your super ases (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) HOW many time u fly the 190A8 ?????? all of u ??
we try out your dweb rides and we enjoy the ride in pony or hog, who got how many kils in what plane NOt prove nothing i Em for perk system when a heavy RIDE will be reward!!
and yes PERK the 262 to MAX and perk system will be nice if work like for us Perk plane cumulate point in US plane
for Brit perk plane in brit plane
and For german Perk plane in german plane
so the mutimilon c hog kiler vil never tuch 262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
british can have Meteor the us P 80 ? no idea if it see real war time operation
the biG Q what to perk For IJN and Soviet ?>
>
> ?
and stop squeakin on LW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) u need LW like Target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)or take a way all LW planes and bounce each other in ponys and hogs
surely will be Big fun
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Leonid, Yaks did not fight P 51s in WW2 (with few notable exceptions).
well in Slovakia the the Dumb piloted Pony B driver with yelow tail ?? ( not remeber this exactly what marking have )
engaget a LA 7 in Slovakia colors in 44 that time some litle anti nazi revolt vas in Slovakia with open internal front and pony vas down in flames
the pilot tryed disengage the Super agresive pony but no way finaly the only way vas to shot the plane down :-)
pony crash landet pilot survived (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Year is almost irrevelant when discussing combat planes of WW2, because Europe had a two year head start over the USA and Japan in serious warplane development.
Look at it like this:
When a country is at peace, military budget for R&D is very, very small. However, if a country is at war, Research instantly gets a massive increase in budget.
This is why, in summer 1942, UK and spit9's, Germany had 109G's and FW's...and the USA had P-40E's.
I prefer to look at fighters this way:
How long did it take for a given type to get into service after its home country went to war:
Examples:
Spit XIV = early 1944 = 4.5 years after UK went to war
Bf-109F = early 1941 = 1.25 years after Germany went to war.
F6F = mid 1943 = 1.5 years after America went to war.
No, this doesn't work.
I have to admit that it looks good at first on paper, but then I thought about it.
There was concurrent engine development in the USA and Japan. Italy is the only country which stopped engine development in the '30s. The P-38, P-47, P-51 and F6F were all in service or development before the US got involved (F6F had to be refocused due to the Zero). The B-17 and B-24 were also pre-war. Jiro Horikoshi had already finished the Zero and was hard at work on the J2M and A7M fighters when the war broke out (J2M was used, A7M would have been introduced in mid 43 to mid 44 if the IJN had let Horikoshi use the engine he wanted to use instead of forcing him to use a different engine and then redesign it for the one he wanted).
What it comes down to is that all major industrial countries were doing everything they could to build better warplanes from about '37-'39 onwards.
You had a nice idea though.
Sisu
-Karnak
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To clarify some things:
Fw 190D-9 is an icon. Some of you see it as dweebmobile the LW needs. No, Fw 190A-8 and Me 109G-10 are suffificent to kill the P 51s (with competent pilot, that is). But Dora would face them on equal footing, where they wouldn't run away.
The Dora symbolizes the best German prop plane (much like P 51 symbolizes US airpower). HTC refusal to model it looks rather suspicious. No conspiracy, just US kids playability issue. Instead, they offer us the underdog versions of early 109s. So the numbers count and can be brought into discussion.
Why P 47D ? Why not P 40 instead ? Or P 39 ?
Instead of Dora, we got 109F-4, 109G-2 and 109G-6 (no MW 50, of course).
However, if you are really looking for dweebmobile modeled without any historical record in mind, go look for C-Hog. It has been introduced to satisfy the dweebs.
And Coyote - I met you few times in the arena. You were always above me. In C-Hog. But you failed to score. You call us whiners ? Sorry, puke, but we shot enough P 51s in 109s and 190s already. Dora might just be too much for you.
You think Fishu needs a Dora to get a better K/D ?! Get real ! Fishu made 300+ kills with no death in Fw 190A-8 !!! Maybe he just wants to catch those P51s who managed to run to ack back then. Maybe he would like to fly the Dora just because it is famous plane.
Too many cocky statements from Allied types. I wonder how on Earth they lost The Rumble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Or maybe they don't walk the walk ?
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 09-22-2000).]
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Hope ya get it more for my UberDuper Hawg to kill. Since new FM my CHawg kills more 109s and 190s now than ever before. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The D-Hog ? Or Quake model ?
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Remember, Yak kills
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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The F4U-1C is here to stay, learn to live with it guys. The incessant whines just makes yourself (whoever is currently the whiner) look plain childish.
There does seem to be a major misconception I see being repeated. The "If we had a plane as fast, we can stop the Pony drivers from running away!!!".
Not necessarily true.
You can take two exactly equal aircraft in speed, and I can consistently run away from one with the other.
Its all about initial E states, angles off the nose, keeping up your velocity, and knowing when to cut your losses and extend (ie run away like a screaming little girl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ). In other words, being a good E fighter.
For instance if you fly smart, you can consistently run away from the P-51 in the Yak. And the Yak is slower than the P-51 at most altitudes.
Remember the famous US political statement "Its the Economy, Stupid!"
Well... "Its the pilots, stupid!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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For Minus <G> :
FRIEND OR FOE ?
AN EARLY SOVIET ENCOUNTER
by E. Neil Borgnis
-Mission 894, largest ever to Berlin - 1264 heavies and 600 escorting P-51s - was launched against targets in and near the German capital to deliver 3724 tons of bombs. Twelve Mustang fighter groups escorted the bombers while two others went to nearby areas.
As previously agreed, the Russians were notified of the mission and its targets. The encompassed area between the Oder and Pasewalk-Berlin had been defined earlier to ensure that Russian and American forces would not meet accidentally.
Flying from East Wretham, 46 P-5IDs from the 359th Fighter Group divided into two formations - Group A led by Captain Ralph L. Cox, 369th Fighter Squadron, and Group B led by Captain Ray S. Wetmore, leading ace of the 359th with 21.5 victories, with 28 aircraft from the 368th and 370th Fighter Squadrons. The time is now 1135 flying at 2,000 ft when Captain Cox leads them in an attack on aircraft seen strafing Zackerick airfield north of Kustrin. There are now fifteen aircraft in the area, Germans as well as Russians. Captain Cox brings down a his fifth victory so quickly that he does not have time to identify its markings. His wingman, Lt. Harold R. Gates, barely avoids colliding with that aircraft but clearly sees its white crosses.
In the midst of this confusing dogfight, as aircraft spin down and explode on impact, the Soviet flak, up to now quiet, throws a wall of fire up to 5,000 ft. Red flight dives on two unidentified aircraft climbing at 10 o'clock. Lt. Robert J. Guggemon (Red 3) identifies one of them as a FW-19O while his leader fires a long burst at the other one. Noticing a ventral radiator beneath his opponent, Red Lead realizes that it is a Yak-9.
Just then, Lt. Robert E. McCormak (Red 4) fires a short burst at another aircraft and hits it just as his adversary reverses his turn. McCormak identifies it as a "round-wing Me-109" in gray blue camouflage. Meanwhile, Lt. Bryce H. Thomson (Yellow 3) attacks an aircraft which he believes to be German, but soon realizes his error. Looking aft, he sees another one about to fire at him. Breaking left sharply, Thomson ends up on the tail of a Yak-9 after a 360-degree turn and places himself on its side while wagging his wings to show his national markings and making hand signals. After hesitating, the Russian responds in kind. With confusion everywhere and little chance of finding the Germans, Cox orders his pilots to break and get back in formation.
In the meantime, Lt. Robert S. Gaines' flight is in difficulty after being separated from the group over Berlin. While flying at 10,000 feet toward Joachimsthal, Gaines sees three or four unidentified aircraft flying below towards the east. Followed by his flight, Gaines makes a 180-degree turn to the left, losing altitude. While making a pass at the leader, Gaines sees the tail-end Charlie breaking away, notes that it is finished in a bluish scheme and devoid of markings; nevertheless, he formally identifies it as an Me-109. He fires at the aircraft which catches fire and falls toward Joachimsthal Lake. Meanwhile, F/0 Harley E. Berndt (Yellow 4) starts to fire at the second "enemy" aircraft while 600 ft. away and quickly moves in. After seeing his bullets chew up the wing root and cockpit of the "enemy" aircraft which dives away, Berndt rejoins his leader. Time is 1130.
All over the area, formations are running into each other. Northeast of Berlin, some 65 miles from the German capital, a flight from the 353rd Fighter Group is attacked from the rear by two La-5s. Seeking to be identified as friendly, the US fighters wag their wings, but to no avail. The Russians come back for a second pass. The P-51s fire a few warning shots while the Russian fighters fire at a straggling B-17.
At 1315, Lt. Tiede, a flight leader in Group A, spots three aircraft above and at 6 o'clock. Crump and Atkins climb toward them and, identifying them as Russians, try to contact them on radio channels A and C. At that very moment, a fourth fighter speeds toward Kyle and fires a short burst at him. The Russian then joins in formation with the other three and, together, they fly away after making a wide turn. The four P--51s then rejoin the stricken B-17 which they escort until 1320 when they are forced by fuel considerations to abandon.
On the Monday following these encounters, Marshal S. A. Kudiakov, chief of staff of the Soviet Air Forces, sent a strong note of protest to Gen. Hill at the US military Mission (USMILMIS) in Moscow. Notably, Marshal Kudiakov stated: 'While near Kustrin, Soviet Yak fighters approached the formation, saw they were Americans, and withdrew. While withdrawing, they came upon German fighter planes which were about to attack the American formation and so the Soviets attacked the Focke Wulfs. Soon the American Mustangs joined in the battle and shot down 4 Yak planes.
In a report dated 19 March, Col. Alfred R. Maxwell, chief of operations, noted minor incidents: "Two P-51s followed two Yak-9s to Zackerick airdrome north of Kustrin and shot down one of the four Fw-190s which were strafing the airdrome. Russian aircraft were circling the airdrome at the time, and when one crashed, the Soviets threw up intense accurate light flak - the P-51s then withdrew".
During the melee over the airdrome, one Yak fired on American aircraft without effect. Pilots report Russian aircraft painted blue exactly like identified German planes and that although haze and patchy clouds complicated recognition, recognition signals were ineffective.
In his reply dated 20 March, Gen N. D. Antonov, chief of staff of the Soviet Army, reported the destruction of six Soviet aircraft by US fighters and stated: "When the group of American planes reached Morin (35 kilometers northwest of Kustrin), at the time over the Morin region there were 6 Soviet (Yak-3) fighters. The Soviet fliers, having noticed the German fighters which were chasing the Americans, attacked the Germans, but they themselves, in turn, were attacked by American fighters".
On 2 April, Gen. N. D. Antonov raises his tone: "Your letter of 28 March 1945 did not satisfy me ... In the air at the time and in this region were a total of 8 Soviet fighters and not 34 planes as indicated. Not a single Soviet attack was made on American planes. Soviet flyers recognized American bombers immediately and Soviet fighters attacked no American planes but only German planes. In your letter it is claimed that the Germans did not shoot down a single Russian plane. Consequently all 6 Soviet fighters were shot down by American planes. By observation of Soviet pilots and also by observation of ground troops it was accurately established that American planes flew 6 to 8 kilometers cast of Kustrin. Conclusions drawn from the investigation virtually prove criminal action of individuals of the American Air Force and do not indicate that such actions will not occur again in the future."
The next day, Gen. Arnold had the following message forwarded to Gen. Antonov in which he stated: "I am greatly distressed to learn that further investigation by Gen. Spaatz reveals that some of our US personnel were at fault in the March 18th incident. I deeply regret the death of Soviet flyers and the destruction of Soviet aircraft resulting from this incident. I am requesting General Spaatz to make exhaustive investigation of this incident and to take strict disciplinary action against individuals who are to blame".
SOURCES-- Detailed mission reports by the 353rd, 357th and 359th FGs--Telex, Memorandum,and Letters from Gen. Spaatz to Colonel Alfred Maxwell, Gen. Anderson to USMTLMIS Moscow, Gen Arnold, War to US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mighty Eighth War Manual, Missing Air Crew Reports, The Army Air Forces in WWII, to name a few.
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... No conspiracy, just US kids playability issue...
Just a thought for you Hristo: most LW squadrons in WB were based in the States/staffed by the Americans... I don't know for sure but I can't see any reason for it to be different here in AH, do you?
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Just a thought for you Hristo: most LW squadrons in WB were based in the States/staffed by the Americans... I don't know for sure but I can't see any reason for it to be different here in AH, do you?
WB has a bit different planes and community...
in AH theres many of those who haven't even seen flight simulator sort of game.
Then follows another question; Why are these people so much against suggestions/complains of "LW" pilot with their diagrams/tests while they feel themself better to give suggestions/complains with same level of diagrams/tests and then x+1 agrees with it and only who might not are "LW".
Seems strange to me... if it is about allied plane, everyone just agrees and squeakes how HT should make it up - but about LW planes... x+1 allies whining against it.
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Verm:
Equal pilots: one in c202, one in P-51D. Which is more likely to get away? Has the P-51D pilot a higher chance of getting away than if he was fighting a ME262?
Add anothber scenario; hi 51 bounce wing of planes with 51 type speed. 51 makes one tiny error when pursuing one, and the other one cuts the corner and is gaining. Likely if it was two 202's?
While I agree that the pilot is the main thing, plane performance *is* an issue.
I've had *many* encounters with P-51's where I've gained on a P51, seen the distance go down to 800 before growing again. If it had been 1.03, I'd been in an 109G10, and that 51 would have been dead.
Also, when several enemies are near, it is easy to lose just a little bit of SA and thusly enable one bandit to come in with an e advantage. Of course, if it is A8's vs 51's, no problem for the pony.
Yeah, the LW has a fast plane, the G10. Unfortunately, with the new patch, I find it reduced in effectiveness in terms of killing with more than 50%. Everyone know I loved the G10; now I exclusively fly the 190's. There is a reason for this.
Give JG54 the Dora, and I can assure you that our deaths will go down (since we can run more effectively) and our kills up (since we can catch runners more effectively).
Pilot skill is a non issue once you are on the deck roughly same e state and the target you're chasing has a higher top speed, if the distance is say 2.5k or more.
Overall, I must admit that I find the pony to be a better plane than both the A5 and A8, even if we don't count top speed.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hristo,
I don't see the Fw190D-9 as a "dweebmobil" and I DO want it to be added to AH. With MW50.
You say its an icon?
You say that LW fans just want to fly it because its the best the Germans had?
Well, I think the same of the Spitfire MkXIV, but look how badly I've been torn up for stating that. You are the only LW fan that I can think of that didn't have a problem with it. I see about half of the so called "Allied" pilots on each side of the Fw190D-9 debate, whereas the LW fans were nearly unanimous in their condemnation of my request for the Spitfire MkXIV. If they both get added the LW fans whining would be unending, for that reason I say add the Fw190D-9 and forget the Spitfire MkXIV.
We RAFantics will muddle through with our 1942 fighters and not whine about ONLY having 2 1944 fighters.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I can say that I have never flown Dora much in WarBirds because I found it too much unmaneuverable.
I like planes that are not easy to maneuver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
..but still it would be very good for sides to be balanced.
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Equal pilots: one in c202, one in P-51D. Which is more likely to get away?
My whole discussion was on planes of near similar ability, for instance the Dora and the P-51. The point was that even if its slightly faster (say the MW50 Dora), the Pony could still outrun it given a smart skilled pilot. Your changing the whole debate, when you go to severly disimilar aircraft.
I've had *many* encounters with P-51's where I've gained on a P51, seen the distance go down to 800 before growing again.
Thats because the P-51 pilot correctly read the relative E states, the situation, and knew when it was time to get away. Whats wrong with that?
Its the same for everyone. You pick an aircraft that you want to fly and you live with its characteristics. If you don't like it, pick another.
To me, the Dora is no big deal and I'm all for its inclusion in the planeset. I would fly against it, just like I fly against P51's. And yes I would fly the Dora itself, just like I currently fly the P-51, F4U, Yak-9U, and the 109G10.
Also, when several enemies are near, it is easy to lose just a little bit of SA and thusly enable one bandit to come in with an e advantage. Of course, if it is A8's vs 51's, no problem for the pony.
Losing SA in the arena is a problem for everyone, if you lose it, its your own fault. Period.
And the part of a Pony being able to easily outrun a A8 that has a significant alt advantage? Bull crap. Pure Luftbabble propaganda.
Yeah, the LW has a fast plane, the G10. Unfortunately, with the new patch, I find it reduced in effectiveness in terms of killing with more than 50%.
So? Every BnZ type aircraft has had an across the board cut in effectiveness. It effected them all, no just the G10's. It made hitting enemy aircraft much more difficult for all aircraft, because they are now pulling much harder into defensive manuevers.
So now, your prefer the 190 because it has more guns (meaning any hit is more effective), and a MUCH larger ammo load, and you can afford to put more ammo downrange hoping for a hit. Thats totally understandably and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't complain because you gave up the speed for the firepower, its your choice.
Give JG54 the Dora, and I can assure you that our deaths will go down (since we can run more effectively) and our kills up (since we can catch runners more effectively).
You may catch other aircraft much more easily, but I dont think you will catch too many more P-51's. Fight them to a draw easier maybe, but kill them outright, not necessarily. Mainly because the P51 pilots will fly differently against a Dora, than a A8. The P-51's will go to more Pony vs Pony tactics (which they already know well) which will negate that increase in speed.
Pilot skill is a non issue once you are on the deck roughly same e state and the target you're chasing has a higher top speed, if the distance is say 2.5k or more.
No, but by that time the fight is already decided. Pilot skill however is an issue, in the fight up until this point. Which is what is important.
Overall, I must admit that I find the pony to be a better plane than both the A5 and A8, even if we don't count top speed.
I agree. These characteristics are what made the Mustang famous or infamous depending on your point of view. Thats historical. Wishful thinking or a preference of our favorite airforce, will not and should not change that.
My point is that you guys (the so called "Luftwaffe" contingent) are constantly and continually complaining about the P-51 and the F4U-1C, to the point that it irritates the rest of the community so much it makes them sick to their stomachs.
I fly the Yak-9U and the 109G10 alot, and I have no problem dealing with either of these aircraft. You dont' see me complaining in every thread that pops up.
What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots? Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.
Why is this? We all face the same situations in the arena, day in and day out. We all face lose of SA or disimilar aircraft characteristics. If you don't like the plane you fly, pick another, its real simple.
Each and Every one of the members of the community face the same challenges each time we leave the runway.
If you think an aircraft is modeled wrong, present data and prove your point. But don't continuous squeak about a plane because its characteristics outfight the aircraft you have chosen.
And Santa, this is not all directly aimed at you. For one of the "Luftwaffe" contingent, your easily the best about listening to factual data and reasonable debate. But jeez talk to your boys will yah?
Its to the point that many members of the community (unfortunately including myself), have heard so many continuous moans and whines, that when a real issue is brought up, they simply disregard it and assume its another baseless complaint.
*rant mode off*
That all said, I am all for having a Fw190D in AcesHigh. I always have been.
But its not going to all of a sudden show the superiority of all the Luftwaffe pilots in the game, and even the playing field.
Its just another plane.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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For some reason this thread reminds me of a few months ago when the FW-190A-5 was the subject of a similar discussion....
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
J_A_B
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Quote
===========================================
What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots? Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.
===========================================
Come on Verm i think the Brits managed to work up a fair squeak for thier out of date planeset, obviously it wasn't as accomplished as the LW due to the fact that in the world of online gaming the LW have been consistantly persecuted due their superior pilots and are therefore experts.
I have a dream though one day the RAF will be able to moan on equal terms with the LW, one day the children of the RAF will pull off the simultaneous self-pitying and self-agrandizing whine, but this will not be an isolated post we will manage to whine consistantly for months about the same subject, even the fact that the current thread has no apparent relavence to that particular whine we will whine on.
We will whine on the noticeboards, we will whine on the mailing lists, we will whine on channel one, we will never surrender*.
Never in the field of human interaction will have so many be whined at by so few about so little.
Remember old chap, stiff upper lips - the brits will whine with the best of them.
*stop whining
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jmccaul, u forgot the rest:
"So let us brace ourselves to our duty, so that if the whining should last for a thousand years, men will still say...
This was their whiniest hour"
Right on, Verm. I routinely run away from and run down "faster" planes. It all depends on who is actually going faster *right now*. I could count on my hand the number of fights i've had where the outcome was decided by a 15mph top speed advantage.
I say bring on the D, my yak will kill it just like it does ponies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Well, I think the same of the Spitfire MkXIV, but look how badly I've been torn up for stating that. You are the only LW fan that I can think of that didn't have a problem with it. I see about half of the so called "Allied" pilots on each side of the Fw190D-9 debate, whereas the LW fans were nearly unanimous in their condemnation of my request for the Spitfire MkXIV. If they both get added the LW fans whining would be unending, for that reason I say add the Fw190D-9 and forget the Spitfire MkXIV.
Bring a MW50 Dora9 and get your SPitfireXIV. I still think XIV is too much for a MW50 190D9 (and for a P51), but get it.
Bring a Dora9 with no MW50, and PERK Spitfire XIV. Because there will be only other nonperk choice to counter the mosnter:P51D. And damnit I DONT WANT TO FLY A P51 in arena because German planeset lacks its KEY plane with its historical performance!
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Verm for President!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
PS.. "Dora.. the other White Meat"
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Originally posted by RAM:
Bring a Dora9 with no MW50, and PERK Spitfire XIV. Because there will be only other nonperk choice to counter the mosnter:P51D. And damnit I DONT WANT TO FLY A P51 in arena because German planeset lacks its KEY plane with its historical performance!
So, what you're saying RAM, is that you will only fly German aircraft and so you insist that nothing be added that is a challenge for the top German aircraft?
Gee, I wonder how the historical Luftwaffe pilots delt with the P-51D and Spitfire Mk F.XIV before they had the Fw190D-9?
Ah well.
Bring in the Fw190D-9 with MW50. I'll kill them with my Spitfire MkIX and Typhoon.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
So, what you're saying RAM, is that you will only fly German aircraft and so you insist that nothing be added that is a challenge for the top German aircraft?
Hummm no, I say that as I only (mostly) fly German iron, I want (need) a plane able to counter the best of the other side. I don't ask it to be better (non MW50 D9 is worse than P51, MW50 D9 is worse than SpitXIV and equal to P51). but I DO ask that please the gap not to be too big. SpitXIV is a monster by itself, but to try to counter it with a non MW50 Fw190D9 is suicidal.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
WB has a bit different planes and community...
in AH theres many of those who haven't even seen flight simulator sort of game.
Then follows another question; Why are these people so much against suggestions/complains of "LW" pilot with their diagrams/tests while they feel themself better to give suggestions/complains with same level of diagrams/tests and then x+1 agrees with it and only who might not are "LW".
Seems strange to me... if it is about allied plane, everyone just agrees and squeakes how HT should make it up - but about LW planes... x+1 allies whining against it.
...or maybe people just don't like to hear whiney babies cry about how LuftWaffle planes are being left out on purpose because of a big conspiracy against them and their pilots. Or maybe they're not interested in hearing how great wafflie pilots are in their horribly inadequate hardware. Or maybe they're not interested in the opinion of someone who doesn't even subscribe to the game.
Bring the friggin' D9, bring the 262, whatever, just quit yer squeaking! I'll continue to avoid your diving dweebmobiles in my DweebNiki.
SOB
...perhaps HTC doesn't give a toejam about LW vs. Allied. Could it be that they're just trying to add variety to the sim with additional aircraft, and haven't added another 190 (or spit for that matter), because AH already has variants of those fighters?!? Naaaa, couldn't be!
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Originally posted by SOB:
Or maybe they're not interested in the opinion of someone who doesn't even subscribe to the game.
Without paying or paying customer I have same right, and according to you, as paying customer I have even bigger right to ask for changes.
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Oh sorry Camel forgot about you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bash
Peace in middle East!! or In Aces High
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Well, if ya pay, then what the heck's your handle? I like to know who it is when I get shot outta the sky! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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YAWN
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-22-2000).]
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What was this thread supposed to accomplish?
An opinion expressed in a non-confrontational manner might be better received. This was a troll from the start. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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My whole discussion was on planes of near similar ability, for instance the Dora and the P-51. The point was that even if its slightly faster (say the MW50 Dora), the Pony could still outrun it given a smart skilled pilot. Your changing the whole debate, when you go to severly disimilar aircraft.
Hm, you made a comment about it all being up to the pilot, which is true to a large extent but not the entire truth. That was what I was feebly adressing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Even Yeager in a Dreidecker will have trouble running from my F-16 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Thats because the P-51 pilot correctly read the relative E states, the situation, and knew when it was time to get away. Whats wrong with that?
Wouldn't have happened if I was in a Dora; he'd be a flaming wreck. Or chances of it would be higher, since judging that e state would be more difficult. If I close to within d800 of a fleeing Runstang in an A5, I consider it a win; the pony has made an error of judgement. Applied the same criterion on myself when I flew the run-oh-nine. Of course, jsut personal criterion.
Its the same for everyone. You pick an aircraft that you want to fly and you live with its characteristics. If you don't
like it, pick another.
And if you're like me, interested in German historical squads, your options are somewhat limited. Our fast fighter handles like a pregnant hippo, and our "nimble" ones are either slower than snails (109F4) or don't really turn (190A5). The option of going allied is non existant in JG54, and I don't want to change squad (you should hear our RW conversations (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). Besides, I hate flying for the good guys. Bad guys unite!
To me, the Dora is no big deal and I'm all for its inclusion in the planeset. I would fly against it, just like I fly against P51's. And yes I would fly the Dora itself, just like I currently fly the P-51, F4U, Yak-9U, and the 109G10.
Great (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Losing SA in the arena is a problem for everyone, if you lose it, its your own fault. Period.
Agreed. Just saying that it is easier to make a fatal mistake if you're facing a plane you cannot so easily run away from. In an A5 vs 51 fight, the 51 pilot can go "whoops!" and still get away relatively easily. Whch is the way it should be. But with the Dora, ooh baby (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And the part of a Pony being able to easily outrun a A8 that has a significant alt advantage? Bull crap. Pure Luftbabble propaganda.
Hm, don't think I said "significant alt advantage"? I said "e advantage" and that's just what I meant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
It's sorta like the A5 vs Spits. Co alt, I have very little to fear after we merge. My terms every time in that situation.
b]So? Every BnZ type aircraft has had an across the board cut in effectiveness. It effected them all, no just the G10's.
The G10 is more of an E fighter than a Z&B'er, I think. Other true z&b'ers have good roll rate, better snap shot abilities and so on. There is a reason G10 popularity has gone down greatly. It's still a good plane, but to me the bad performance areas now outweight the good. Personal preference, I gather.
It made hitting enemy aircraft much more difficult for all aircraft, because they are now pulling much harder into defensive manuevers.
Aye, and I used to be a dedicated G10 pilot. Now I fly the A5, because it's so much more effective at fighting. Sucks at running though.
So now, your prefer the 190 because it has more guns (meaning any hit is more effective), and a MUCH larger ammo load, and you can afford to put more ammo downrange hoping for a hit. Thats totally understandably and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't complain because you gave up the speed for the firepower, its your choice.
That's only part of the story though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I gave up the 109 because now it takes so much *extra* time to maneuver your target into a favourable situation that kill steals or new enemy inbound makes it a bit tedious. I kill very well with the armament in the G10; it's weak, but great for the short distance shot I use. With the A5, I can just dive in, make my shot and be done with it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Yummie, Spit for breakfast.
My complaint is that either we have this fast fat pregnant pig, or we have relatively slow zoom and boomers. Or the 109F4, which I consider inferior to any Spit or Zeke. The allieds have the choice between; excellent turners that are slow, medium turners that turn decently, z&b'ers that outturn and outrun LW z&b'ers, very fast z&b'ers that turn worse than the A5. The Dora would like a A8 with more speed and altitude performance; the allieds already has plane with such capabilities.
You may catch other aircraft much more easily, but I dont think you will catch too many more P-51's. Fight them to a draw easier maybe, but kill them outright, not necessarily. Mainly because the P51 pilots will fly differently against a Dora, than a A8. The P-51's will go to more Pony vs Pony tactics (which they already know well) which will negate that increase in speed.
Excellent point. But sooner or later a percentage of the Pony drivers will be at a disadvantage and not be able to run so well. And that's where our kills go up, as long as I am not the one trying to shoot.
No, but by that time the fight is already decided. Pilot skill however is an issue, in the fight up until this point. Which is what is important.
There's no skill involved in making three or four bad z&b passes, make a huge error and then clumsily wallow away running like a screaming girl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Been there too many times personally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The fight for me is only decided when both parts land, or when one is dead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I agree. These characteristics are what made the Mustang famous or infamous depending on your point of view.
Thats historical. Wishful thinking or a preference of our favorite airforce, will not and should not change that.
Agreed. But add the Dora, and we will have a plane that'll give it a true run for the money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
My point is that you guys (the so called "Luftwaffe" contingent) are constantly and continually complaining about the P-51 and the F4U-1C, to the point that it irritates the rest of the community so much it makes them sick to their stomachs.
Don't jdge all LW by the behaviour of a few. And, we have some allieds whiners too, who make at least me sick to the stomach as well.
There might also be a reason for some of these "whines". I am not to let consensus decide what's right or wrong; I ain't that much of a relativist. And I ain't whining about the P-51; I'm saying the Dora would be good to have, because it'd even the playing field a bit.
I fly the Yak-9U and the 109G10 alot, and I have no problem dealing with either of these aircraft. You dont' see me complaining in every thread that pops up.
Well, anti-whine whine, does that count? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously, you don't see me do that much either anymore. Did before, sure and it probably happens now and then when my brain malfunctions and decide to order my fingers to make a post about that damned dweeb that just shot me down.
What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots?
Brits have excellent turners in Spits, and a great z&b'er in the Tiffie. The Russkies have far too few planes, but the YAK-9 is very good indeed. The Japs; same problem, but they have what I consider the best MA general rumble plane now; the N1K. And I've seen whines from all camps.
I've also seen many from the allied camp, and this despite them being the most well represented group in terms of aircraft out there. Just human nature.
Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.
Some noticeable people do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Why is this? We all face the same situations in the arena, day in and day out. We all face lose of SA or disimilar aircraft characteristics. If you don't like the plane you fly, pick another, its real simple.
Sure, but when the choice you have is between either a fast pregnat pig or a slow z&b'er (in z&b terms), there is not much of a choice. Adding the Dora would really help.
I don't cry for the Dora. I don't need it to score kills. But it would be nice.
Each and Every one of the members of the community face the same challenges each time we leave the runway.
Depending on squad affiliation, some have more choices than others.
And yes, i could just switch squads or whatnot. But, if I could stay in the squad, stay with the historical setup for immersion, and still have the option to be able to run with the Runstangs, to fight them in the same way, it'd be a nice, clean soslution.
If you think an aircraft is modeled wrong, present data and prove your point. But don't continuous squeak about a plane because its characteristics outfight the aircraft you have chosen.
God, I hope this is not directed at me.
And Santa, this is not all directly aimed at you.
Phew (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
For one of the "Luftwaffe" contingent, your easily the best about listening to factual data and reasonable debate. But jeez talk to your boys will yah?
<Blushes>
I don't talk to them. They order me around. Apparently, there is no place for a nice person in the Gad Guy camp except the ottom of the food chain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Its to the point that many members of the community (unfortunately including myself), have heard so many continuous moans and whines, that when a real issue is brought up, they simply disregard it and assume its another baseless complaint.
Yup, a case of crying wolf one too many times. I still feel that there are legitimate posts made even by the whiners.
*rant mode off*
Wow, you can turn it OFF? You overmodelled allied opportunistic LW pig!
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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THX Westy a nice reading, damn no wonder if pony pilots are so dumb in AH also (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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And if you're like me, interested in German historical squads, your options are somewhat limited. Our fast fighter handles like a pregnant hippo, and our "nimble" ones are either slower than snails (109F4) or don't really turn (190A5). The option of going allied is non existant in JG54, and I don't want to change squad (you should hear our RW conversations ). Besides, I hate flying for the good guys. Bad guys unite! -StSanta
you are getting a bit of a warped perspective limiting your options that way.
If you don't fly the planes your likely to fight against there is no way you can really see what they are capable of from a first person point of view.
by flying only LW planes you have turned the allied aircraft you refuse to fly into a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
you only see them from the cockpit of your LW fighter and can only see a 3rd person perspective of what they are capable and not capable of...
if you flew them a bit some of the mystery would be removed and they would be easier to engage effectively to your own aircrafts strengths.
don't fall back on the old excuse of "I fly only LW not that allied garbage"
fly the allied planes too and you will see in a less jaded light how capable the LW planes are.
I've flown the axis planes a bit and the allied planes a bit more and I find both very capable
axis
109G10: 19 kills, 0 deaths
109f4: 16 kills, 3 deaths
190a8: 22 kills, 1 deaths
190a5: 8 kills, 0 deaths
C.205: 7 kills, 0 deaths
C.202: 36 kills,13 deaths
a6m5b: 61 kills,15 deaths
allied
Typhoon:23 kills, 8 deaths
P-47d30:29 kills, 1 deaths
P-38L: 111 kills,20 deaths
P-51D: 63 kills, 5 deaths
spitIX: 72 kills,17 deaths
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Well, anti-whine whine, does that count?
Touche!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Can you imagine all the LW whining we would have to endure if we ever get the Mustang MK1A .
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That would be music to my ears. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo
And Coyote - I met you few times in the arena. You were always above me. In C-Hog. But you failed to score. You call us whiners ? Sorry, puke, but we shot enough P 51s in 109s and 190s already. Dora might just be too much for you.
Wow never knew you would resort to lies to try and make your case ? I rarely fly Chogs(not that there is anything wrong with that). I fly em on Jabo missions. I fly P51, 47 and 38 mostly... Say If I failed to "score", how did u know it was me??? Making things up are we? LMAO
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Originally posted by Pongo:
I think coyote has a poor grasp on reality. An an even weaker grasp on simulation.
At least you were able to have a thought, there has to be some satisfaction for you in that......
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(http://members.home.net/ereid/whiner.gif)
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-24-2000).]
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LMAO !
That is too funny . Kudos you magnificient bastard <S>
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Please....
Always give the LW fans a better ride. They are very tempremental and emotional. They need to be pampered. Every time they lose a fight they get a rectum rash ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) and then cry about it forever.
And...
Why is it that LW fans can not be beaten? If they are beaten then it is always "Uber Allied" or "I can't believe that plane did one single thing better than my LW plane could do it"
Further more....
Change the accepted name from "Luft Whiners" to "Luft Winners". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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SrSanta;
Congrats Dude!
You finally beat Torque for the "Longest Post Ever" award.
WTG! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Originally posted by coyote:
Wow never knew you would resort to lies to try and make your case ? I rarely fly Chogs(not that there is anything wrong with that). I fly em on Jabo missions. I fly P51, 47 and 38 mostly... Say If I failed to "score", how did u know it was me??? Making things up are we? LMAO
Back in beta terrain I saw a 25-30k Hog (!). He dropped on a nearby Niki and shot it down. Watching the kill buffer, I knew it was you.
Then you turned for me. Once we were co-E, you simply dove for your field.
Remember this next time you mention LW pilots fly at 35k.
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As I said, the Dora is more than just a plane to most Luftwaffe types. Dedicated LW types do very well even with existing planes. It is not that they need the Dora performance to win (but it will make things easier).
Still, they would like to fly the plane they admire so much.
Surely more than C Hog types who probably never heard of the cannon Hog before they tried it in AH.
P.S.
Verm, try Fw 190A-8 vs P 51D. You might appreciate the kills you get a lot more.
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Hristo, I gave up the P51 as my serious ride back 3 tours ago.
Now I fly the Yak-9U (sometimes 109G10 with gondolas) when I go looking for air to air engagements, and for ground attack/vulching I fly the F4U-1C or the Typhoon.
Yep the -1C is dweeby and it almost feels like cheating, no arguements, but I figure that its no more dweeby than someone spawning 37 times in a hour at the same base in a N1K2 or Spit IX. When people give up respawn-dweebery, I will give up the cannon hog for those missions.
And I can even prove I knew about Corsairs with cannons long before they were introduced in AH. Hell, it was before they were introduced in WB's (F4U-4B) even, since I was trying to get Pyro to put the plane in there.
Have you flown the Yak? With its guns and ammo load, you appreciate each and every kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Anyone that has to demean anyone else to elevate themself(ves) has an ego problem. What this has to do with the addition of the 262 or 190D9 is beyond me.
"We deserve the 262 and 190D9 because you Allied guys are just plane chicken and HT and Pyro have a plot against European players and nobody can kill me in my 109G10 and if you only flew it more you would appreciate how good I am and you allied guys were never any good anyway and everyone knows the Luftwaffe was the best in the world and everyone knows that makes my argument right"... sorry if I missed any other cogent point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Model every single plane possible. Some will get used, some won't. While I might agree we need to see some planes added other than the American iron, I don't see this as a vast consipiracy against the Axis (LW). The veiled accusation that the LW is being slighted to stroke the American egos is naive- you assume that all Americans fly the American planes, and that is not true.
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Its much simpler than that, Kieren. Right now German planes are or maneouverable,but slow (109F4,G2,G6, 190A5) or fast but unmaneouverable (Me109G10). Fw190A8 falls in the middle, is maneouverable ,but unable to stay for long in close fights, but it isnt faster enough to cope with most planes on the planeset.
I, and by extension all dedicated LW pilots, am tired of outmanouvering and outperforming P51 pilots that bounce us from 30K ,to win them the E situation in the disadvantage,to turn tables on them effectively. only to see them 0Ging and running away like little screamin' girls.
If a Fw190 pilot blews it he is likely to go down quite fast in flames. If a P51 pilot blews it, he only needs to point the nose down and say "bye bye,julai ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). It's annoying to say the least.
The Fw190D9 was an historically important plane for LW, was in numbers and was the P51's direct competitor in WWII. I always loved that plane, its looks, and its historical use.
But I can't fly it. I can't fly my favorite plane because (with no serious justification so far), it isnt in the planeset.
I dont say that HTC has a plot against LW pilots...but I am sure that most people wont accept very well a HIGHLY (I repeat: HIGHLY, DEADLY) competitive german plane in the planeset. The cries there were in 1.03 about Fw190A5 and 109G10 shows it clearly, even wehn 109G10 was one the hardest planes in the planeset, only behind Typhoon, and the A5 was one of the slowest planes in Aces High.
Go figure if we have here a Fw190A8 with the climbrate of a Fw190A5, the high altitude performance of a G10, and the speed of a P51, not to talk about MW50 boost that will give it a very good acceleration under 20K...
IT won't turn for a $h1T (if fact it should turn a bit better than A8), but it will be able to run with mustangs and MAKE THEM FIGHT. Thing that 75% of them have no idea of how to do it. And the cries of "overmodelled", "mosnter", "Uber", "D9 FM porked", etc will be nonstop.
I dont want to be in Pyro's pants if that happens, that fer sure. I have read several times in many sites that Wb's D9 was seriously undermodelled in grounds of making it "playable". I dont know if it is true or not as I rarely have flown Wb. But I don't find it too hard to believe.
I dont blame HTC for D9 not being in the planeset. I dont blame anyone. But I want it here. not because I can't fight in the current LW planes (I can, and I do decent work in Fw190s), but because is my most loved plane in history.
And I want it.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-25-2000).]
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You see, you don't lose me with the "it was there in the same time period, therefore it should be modeled argument". Believe me when I say I agree with you. Where I do disagree is in this continuous thought that spews from the LW crowd;
"but I am sure that most people wont accept very well a HIGHLY (I repeat: HIGHLY, DEADLY) competitive german plane in the planeset."
How do you know what I will accept? As a matter of fact, I think most people will welcome more choices, whatever they are. What it comes to is this; if you choose to limit yourself to one country's aircraft, that is your choice. I don't. When aircraft are made available I fly the ones that I enjoy more than the ones I don't.
The trouble is you are not the only one that wants a plane that is representative of the time period. Remember Karnak? He'd like to see a Spit XIV. Why shouldn't he have one? Why can't Vermillion have his Ki-44, Mitsu his Ki-84, Leonid his La-7? Why can't Gatt have a G55?
You'll notice that when these guys ask for their rides, it is done so without the insuinuation of an American conspiracy. You'll also notice some of these guys are Americans asking for another country's aircraft. You're painting all Americans and HTC with a very wide brush.
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Originally posted by Kieren:
"but I am sure that most people wont accept very well a HIGHLY (I repeat: HIGHLY, DEADLY) competitive german plane in the planeset."
How do you know what I will accept?
Not you, kieren. Most of the people.
Remember 1.03? all the whinin about Fw190A5?. All the whinin about G10? (not very clever whinin because in 1.03 I killed more G10s than ever, BTW). LW planes were giving Allied planes a hard time and the BBS was full of threads about it.
So it isnt so hard to figure that exactly the same thing is very probable that will happen if a properly modelled Fw190D9 is modelled in AH.
About the people and their wantings of planes, I agree with them. For a while I was VERY concerned about SpitXIV (is no secret). When I aknowledged that under 20K its speed was close to that of the P51, and that MW50 fitted in D9 made the Fw190D9 be as fast as both (I allways taught the 426mph 190D9 as the Mw50 one,but seems that it was the non MW50), I stopped the cry to perk the XIV.
And I stopped it knowing, still, that the XIV will be the best arena plane hands down. But at least we LW pilots will able to fly something that at least can compare with it.
Vermillion and Mitsu for now have the N1K2, the second best plane in AH for me, right now. Leonid has a Yak9U, one of the best planes,too, better than a G10 IMHO. Gatt has a C205, a plane that was there at the same time as the Centauro, and had similar performance.
190 nuts have an early war plane unable to dictate the terms of engagement, and unable to fight over 20K, and a latewar heavyweigh that only has firepower and deck speed as advantage over A5.
none of those can be quallified as very competitive in the current planeset...
D9 will be. ANd I love the plane.
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Remember 1.03? all the whinin about Fw190A5?.
That wasn't the issue in the least. RAM, your seeing conspiracies were there aren't any.
People were complaining about the 190A5 because it was porked, not because it was competitive.
It had a bug in the FM as we all now know. The complaint was that the A5 in 1.03, didn't compare in the manner it should to the rest of the planeset. And it appears that the "whiners" in this case were correct.
Complaints about the G10 in 1.03? I remember alot of people saying that the aircraft was very good, and that it had quietly become a very potent and lethal aircraft. But I don't remember any posts at all about its having a problem or error in the FM. Please point me to these threads where people are screaming "The 109G10 is Screwed UP!! Its just too Fast (or turns too well, or climbs too good, or anything like that).
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-25-2000).]
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RAM,
The problem I have with you and most of the rest of the Luftwaffe fans is that you continuously insult anybosy who doesn't see the German aircraft as the bestest thing ever.
You insist on believing that we don't want a "competative" German fighter (we already have two, but lets not go into that) because we're so scared of it. That is complete and utter bullcrap, RAM! Everytime you or somebody else posts it, it just riles all of us non-German aircraft buffs. THAT is what is ticking us off, not the request for the Fw190D-9, we couldn't care less about that, one way or another.
You guys seem to revel in feeling persecuted, but you REALLY need to try to get a more balanced view of things.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Verm, the initial whining about Fw190A5 was about its turning ability and acceleration.
Acceleration has been turned a bit down. Turning ability compares just the same to the rest of the planes as in 1.03.
When some people saw Fw190A5 turning as it did in 1.03 they went crazy.
About G10, in 1.03 I saw more G10s than ever. People thought it was the "magic carpet" of AH because what it was said here in this BBS. And so they died in tons, because those people didnt know how to ride it to the best of its possibilities.
Originally posted by Karnak:
RAM,
The problem I have with you and most of the rest of the Luftwaffe fans is that you continuously insult anybosy who doesn't see the German aircraft as the bestest thing ever.
You insist on believing that we don't want a "competative" German fighter (we already have two, but lets not go into that) because we're so scared of it.
You contradict yourself. fist you say that I cant accept anyone saying that german planes weren't the best, when I have said tons of time that Spitfire XIV is better plane than MW50 fw190D9.
Then you say that I insist that we have no competitive planes in AH...how is that if I cant accept that allied planes are better?...
You are getting me completely wrong, Karnak. First of all, LW planes are now worse than most of the planeset. Fw190As are still competitive (A8 has received a new life with 1.04), but can't match, by far, P51s, P38s and barely P47s.
It isnt surprising, tho. A5 was an early 1943 design, slow by any standards in 1944. A8 was a heavyweight designed to hunt down bombers, not to be an air superiority plane.
The Air superiority Fw190 in 1944 was the D9. Able to match anything the allied had. Not to OUTPERFORM ANYTHING THE ALLIED HAD, but to MATCH it.
Me109G10 is now a plane for very patient and dedicated pilots. I still like it, but from being the second best plane in AH, IMHO, it has fallen back even behind 109g2!!!...It can be deadly, but requires very expert handling, and the FM changes have negated most of its previous strong points.
MW50 Fw190D9 is sorely missed for LW pilots, karnak. We fly outdated outperformed planes, or hardly maneouverable ones, and that is VERY annoying.
You should understand it. You in 1.03 were saying just the same about RAF planes, remember? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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RAM,
I was never accusing everbody of being in a conspiracy. I was never accusing people of being afraid of the Spit. I was never insulting everbody who wasn't an RAFanatic.
Yes, I was asking for a 1944 aircraft.
Why don't you try just asking for the Fw190D-9. I'm sure you'd be surprised at the support you'd get from all members of the AH community. (Don't try this with the Me262, jets won't fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
The problem, you see, is that every time the Fw190D-9 is asked for, the request is coupled with baseless accusations of consiracy and fear. THAT is what gets our blood up.
P.S.,
Originally posted by RAM:
You contradict yourself. fist you say that I cant accept anyone saying that german planes weren't the best, when I have said tons of time that Spitfire XIV is better plane than MW50 fw190D9
You misunderstood what I meant, I think. I didn't mean best as in most capable, I meant best as in most interesting and likable.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
People were complaining about the 190A5 because it was porked, not because it was competitive.
LW Plane is instantly porked as it is too good obviously (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nobody has had even a look at spit 5's speed until I did test it.
How about P-51 back then when it had glitch in the FM, only a handful of more LW innovated pilots complained of it. (and allies were whining against that arqument)
But when we have LW plane having something threatening in here, it is BIG story.
And there is still few examples that I could dig out.
What comes to 109G6 and G10, they accerlate SLOW.
I'd like to see speed beyond 300mph bit more often. (wah.. I see 300mph quicker in Spit V than in G6/G10)
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P 51D, P 47D (-30 something), P 38L and F4U-1c are the most modern planes in the planeset, all except C-Hog being 1944 birds.
What other countries need are planes from same time, not some early war substitutes we have.
We need :
Fw 190D-9 (more than just a plane to some of us)
Spitfire XIV
Tempest
Me 262
La 7
Yak 3
Ki 84
Now meet those next time you take off in P 51D (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Not true Hristo. Not in the least.
If your saying that the US planes are late war (1944-1945) and everyone else is flying older planes, you need to get some books out and study up on your aircraft history.
N1K2: late 1944/early 1945
A6M5b: mid 1944 (?)
Yak-9U: late 1944
Fw190A8: mid 1944
Me109G10: late 1944
So I see Americans, Germans, Russians, Japanese, and Brazilians all have late war aircraft.
The people that can really complain are the Italians and the British, they both still flying midwar aircraft.
{Hristo wrote}We need :
Fw 190D-9 (more than just a plane to some of us)
Spitfire XIV
Tempest
Me 262
La 7
Yak 3
Ki 84
I agree totally, except for the Me262. And even though I am a Russian aircraft fan, I could even do without the Yak3 (Vk105 is the one we would probably get) since it would have very similar performance and handling to the Yak-9U we already have. Now if we get the Yak-3 (Vk107) I take my words back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I would like to see the Me262 for Scenario use, but I figure it would ruin the atmosphere of the MA for the average pilot.
Now see.... all you had to do, was say "I think these aircraft would round out the planeset" and I would have been on your side (and many others).
But when you had to throw the "Its a US conspiracy and they got better planes than us..." gratituitous Luftwobble whine in, you just made half the people that read this board, instantly disagree with you, and the other half totally ignore you.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
<snip>
But when you had to throw the "Its a US conspiracy and they got better planes than us..." gratituitous Luftwobble whine in, you just made half the people that read this board, instantly disagree with you, and the other half totally ignore you.
I really could not have said it better Verm. I think LW fans would go farther in their pursuit by stopping the constant and incesstant whine.
MY GOSH!
It is just un-ending. That communication circuit is so overloadeded that it refuses to accept new messages. This is considering that often times the information is actually pretty good, but it just gets corrupted by zealous-over-one-sidedness. This taint pollutes the readers thoughts to the point of exclusion.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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I wouldn't say an anti-LW conspiracy.
What I would say is that US planes are very well represented and at large outperform the LW ones in the MA.
We have the G10, which is a capable plane in a good pilots hands. I consider myself a good 109 pilot, but have to say that 1.04 has reduced its effectiveness in MA so much that I'm more effective at killing in A5 than G10. It has several serious well documented weaknesses and only two strengths, which sometimes are negated by the negatives.
The 190's in particular are outperformed by yank aircraft. As it should be; we got one very heavy buff hunter, and one 1943 aircraft.
Would like more eggs or more altitude/speed in 190's. Not too big a request, as there were 190's produced which had this, and in reasonable numbers.
Add more planes I say, US or non US. But to me it appears we still have too few non US planes.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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StSanta-
An extremely reasonable request. <S!>
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I wouldn't say an anti-LW conspiracy.
What I would say is that US planes are very well represented and at large outperform the LW ones in the MA.
<snip>
Funny thing is from my perspective, I have not noticed this at all, with the exception of the 1C.
If I feel that a plane is overmodeled, how the heck am I supposed to really know? I have never actually flown even one. How could I possibly compare to which something I have never done?
I might whine now and then, once in a while. Everyone does. That is a major difference and that is the key to what I am talking about. Not the constant repeating over and over the constant same boring whine that ends up sounding more like the ringing in your ears following a drinking binge.
If dedicated LW fans don't have or get the D9, blame yourselves. Maybe HTC is tired of reading the same ole same ole.
Perhaps in retrospect, the D9 should have been the first 190. However, if we do get the D9, and I hope that we do, then what will be the whine?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo
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Originally posted by RAM:
Hummm no, I say that as I only (mostly) fly German iron, I want (need) a plane able to counter the best of the other side.
So after the D-9 arrives, you will loudly support the later versions of the Allied aircraft?
After all this exact same reasoning would apply to all those that fly any particular nations's aircraft almost exclusively, wouldn't it?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Before you go launching like a Saturn V, remember that I support putting in the D-9 AND the 262.
Anything to stop that incessant whine, anything!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
N1K2: late 1944/early 1945
A6M5b: mid 1944 (?)
Yak-9U: late 1944
Fw190A8: mid 1944
Me109G10: late 1944
Yak-9 betas Fw190a8, N1K2 beats Fw190A8 and Me109G10 beats Fw190A8..
Only that doesn't is A6M5. (but for A6M5, it is one of the easiest kills probably)
Plan keeping up air superiority with A-8 against N1K2s, is doomed. (same against Yak9)
A-8 is not only less maneuverable but also slower than A-5.
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Fishu, the discussion had nothing to do with X airplane beats Y airplane. Don't change the point of the debate.
His statement was "What other countries need are planes from same time, not some early war substitutes we have" , the same time being 1944 like the US aircraft.
This statement was obviously false and inaccurate.
That is what I was proving by posting the list that I did.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Fishu, the discussion had nothing to do with X airplane beats Y airplane. Don't change the point of the debate.
His statement was "What other countries need are planes from same time, not some early war substitutes we have" , the same time being 1944 like the US aircraft.
This statement was obviously false and inaccurate.
That is what I was proving by posting the list that I did.
Easy for them to say who don't look for combat worthy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Whine, you say ? Just facts.
Imagine AH without P 51D ? Would you call requests for it whines ? Or maybe reasonable requests ?
Double standards, that's how I would call it.
Not to mention, Me 262 has every right to be in AH, just as all other 1944 planes. But no, it would somehow ruin the sim. And yet, the same ones that say it would ruin the sim say it would be able to kill only bombers.
So, bomber killer ruins the sim. The best bomber killer right now is C-Hog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Why such tone of my posts ?
IMO, D-9 should have been in AH since first day of beta. But now, in each and every release we got a carefully chosen underdog. No Dora for one full year. Now that really pisses some of us. Especially when you see planes with much less historical significance being added (which, btw, ruin the sim far more than Dora would ever do).
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LOL.. after that one Hristo, I've changed my mind.
I hope you NEVER see a Dora in AH.
Keep yer thirty bucks. Buy a clue instead.
Hang