Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Shane on August 29, 2003, 03:26:37 PM
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i've brought this up to individual CT staffers, but never here...
we all know some maps are more "milky" than others, i think it might be a good idea to make base capture require 15, 20, even 25 troops. this doesn't prevent serious base captures, but it does reduce the ability of 1 or 2 people to milk.
the time frame for the troops to capture could even been shortened.
i'd start with 15 to see the effect that has.
just a suggestion... chime in with your .02
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I think that most bases are barely taken with 10 troops if they are faught for, that is if their is actualy opsation to the capture. So raisng the number required would be an unnessary peanatility on those who want to fight for a field.
Now you are right that it would slow/stop milkmen who operate alone or even in pairs, but milkmen are realy not that big a problem on most maps. If they take a bunch of bases so what we can always erase their work by switching them back, somthing I often do on maps so effected. Most CT maps we use now days are also almost imposable to reset so this is also not further reasion for uping them.
Milkmen are doing what they do because it is fun for them, it rarely impacts the larger battles and if it threatens to do so we fix the map, if anything it alows us to see more of the larger maps by moving the front.
Another down side to rasing the number of trops it takes to take a field is that someone will be porking their rank by doing a GV mishion and not geting a capture for it.
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peanatility :D
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Brady,
A couple of maps before last, Jester had the advanced BoB up. It was the allied advancement deep into germany. All the Axis guys did was base capture base capture base capture with the Tiger. Sure with a bonch of folks on it takes a lot to capture a base but with so many bases, it only takes one to two to capture it. Ther Tiger can not be stoped one vs one if the Tiger driver knows what he is doing.
I should know, Ive done a lot of it. Driving GVs can be a lot more fun cause my joystick crap make flying a pain in the ass. Shane is right, base capture needs to be turned down. If the Theme of the map is "Advanced Allies" then keep the axis base capturing to a minimum. Same with early war. Let the base capture represent the theme....basicly just let the CMs reset the map before PRIME TIME!
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A Tiger can be easly stoped by somewone who knows what they are doing, a 37mm Field gun that is maned can easly kill a Tiger, and a guy in a plane with a 500 pound bomb and a clue can easly stop a Tiger.
The rest is just milking and anyone can do that in any vehical/plane combo.
The France Map also has built in stops so at certain points you cant keep going in GV's you nead to up a plane and make the hop.
The real isue hear is milking, and this goes back to the points I raised above, basical So what if they milk, as long as they cant reset the map doing it and the CT staff pay atention (which we do) it is not that big a deal. I would also counter if it is abig deal to you personaly do somthing about it and look at the map and stop them from doing it, granted their is sometimes a lot of off hours milking that takes place but that is whear we (the Staff) come in.
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heres where brady and I disagree so mark it here....
base capture is what ruined the ct experience for many folks. It leads to war winning and strat playing and takes away from the combat.
On a 256 x 256 map with just 40 folks its like the pizza map with just 100. Numbers of guys off battling buildings and milk running.
On the large maps there is lotsa folks who would come into the ct more often if you we get rid of any pretense of "war".
But I understand some folks like that sort of thing so at the very least it oughta be hard enough to force a team effort.
Fuel hardness ought to be increased and downtime shortened, fhs vhs and bh ought to be hardened and downtime reduced.
Ack emplacement hardness ought to be increased.
Mulit-engine bombers should be limited to medium or large fields.
And the map room hardened to take 20 troops.
This way you get rid of the 1 or 2 guys who trip off on the own during off hours and land grab unopposed.
if brady doesnt agree with me he is a biased subject of the emperor. Thats still a step above the whiney allied farmboy....
:p
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Capturing bases using Tanks? Gee...that sounds a lot like German tactics in WWII...what was it called?Dweebcreig ...nope...nope..nope...brrrin gkring...nope...nope...nope.. .Blitzkrieg. Blitzkrieg. Blitzkrieg....yep yep yep yep.
Imaging using German tactics with German tanks. Shameful:D
As for field strat Batz, unlike Brady, I do agree with all of your points. Anything that helps improve realism and strategy ought to be used, especially having bombers and twin engine's using medium/large airbases, target hardening etc. Historically, bombers were ALWAYS delegated to larger airfields...the runways just weren't long enough. :)
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brady,
I have to disagree with you on this. The Tigers cannot be stopped that easily, and further more they didn't wait to be stopped.
On the Advanced BoB map keyapaha and myself had multiple sorties in Mossies trying to stop milkrunning GVs and each time the GVs would just go elsewhere. They were actively avoiding fighting agist other players. That is counter productive in a combat game and counter intuitive in a multi-player game.
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I compleatly diusagree with Bats for the most part on that Post of his, but hey we cant always agree:)
Karnak, I understand that for many people it is hard to drop a bomb and Kill a Tiger, I also understand that many people do it with ease and do so consistantly.
If you were fighting aganst GV's that were atacking a base then they were not milking because they were fighting:), if they went else whear then you put a good defense and drove them off again fighting, if they dident want to fight you so what, they went else whear you can to, the map system is designed to show you whear they are by flashing bases bells and whistles. Also it is a very small percentage of players who actualy milk run so their impact on the whole in terms of avoiding fighting is minimal.
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Sweat Jeasious your bias is so apparent its sickening.
You sound like an ex-main score potato who enjoys a bit of the ole' milk running yourself.
:D
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brady,
I'd guess that it was a good 75% of the 50 or so players that were on at that time that were milkrunning.
As to the defense, well, no. We put up no defense other than taking off. They didn't even contest the issue. They just left.
There were ~50 players on and the dar only showed about 10 total, but multiple flashing, undefended fields.
It was a complete joke and no fun. It is why I logged off after only a few sorties.
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I am the Milk Man....:)
I think I know what you mean Karnak, somtimes their seam to be a lot of them, espichaly on the Finland map's.
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Brady you are so inflexible when it comes to suggestion from our noble ct community. I wonder why you have become so jaded?
Just because we call you bias and a completely onesided F4U hater is no reason not to do what we say. Fix the maproom hardness.....
Well Brady?
;)
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But one of the mappers saw this milkrunner problem ages ago and did something about it on one of the Pacific maps....
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Shane's right. Some maps are conducive to milking. Some of them.
Fin-Rus is one of them. It's a dandy map with lots of plusses -- including an attempt to cater to the ground war -- but one the largest problems from a gameplay standpoint is the relatively easy path to the axis hq. Dead hq = dead dar = no fun for those looking for a2a on a big map with low #s.
If it is possible to up the # of troops needed to capture a field, I think it would be a good experiment. Particularly on this map. Hasn't this map, after all, been the scene of gameplay experiments before?
Anyway, what does closed-minded brady have to do with this setup? It's Andijg's, right? How about it jester? Why not make it 20 troops to capture a field this week?
What could there be to lose? Surely not attendance numbers. For every milker you gain with EZ Base Capture (tm), I'm sure you lose at least one who wants to fly but can't easily find a fight.
If it's technically impossible (needs a map tweak/re-upload or something), nevermind.
Splash1
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10Bears did a good thing, but it was kinda over kill, the bases are rarely taken on the slot map.
HQ hardness is easly adjusted, and often is for the very reasion you mention Dennis.
It can be adjusted, the map room hardness.
But were back to the same point so what if they milk run, it is easly erased, and they are having fun so whats the big deal?
Batz, your rapidely becoming part of the problem:)
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No big deal. It's a game. I can find something else to do when the milkers have made it less enjoyable for me.
But that's not what you're aiming for, is it?
This seems like an issue that could be fixed .. at least on a trial basis .. with a minor tweak by this week's setup author.
Why should we have to depend on/wait for a CT staffer to pop in and "fix" what the milkers have so easily porked?
Splash1
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i've brought this up to individual CT staffers, but never here... What kind of feedback did you get?
I agree with Splash, If it can be done without too much of a hassle, try it and see how it works.
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I dont care about the other cms. I blame brady for it all.
That bastage...................:D
I talked to brady on the phone about upping maproom hardnesss, he was just as jaded and inflexible live as he is on this board.
Oh brady thats my line
"All of you are quickly becoming part of the problem"
I demand an answer!!!!:eek:
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LOL:)
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Yep I agree, with the idea of making some set ups harder to capture a base. The slot map for instance-for all the whining about the plane set was a map in which base capture and "the ground war" were basically non-exisistant. The reason is that with three towns multiple guns and just too many things to be taken down in too little time, base capture was dam near impossible. All players could have their fun and fly, drive, or shoot whatever was available and the attendance this last week was quite high. Now I'm not a fan of the slot map, it's down on my list of favorites but for the purposes of this thread it is a prime model.
With the Fin-Rus map for example one guy can take a tank, level a town and all guns, return with troops and capture a base-thats TOO easy. The CT is supposed to be a weekly rotating historical senario, the CT staff goes to great lengths to ensure as much as they can, historcal acuracy in available "toys" for us to play with. The one thing I think is overlooked is-it should take a concerted effort with at least a few players to capture a base. A few ground vehicles, aircraft for support and CAP, and at least 3 goons-2 with troops, and 1 with supplies (I think you should have to re-supply and rebuild your capture-it would be more historically real).
I guess the flip side of the coin is that if I drive into a town and start to level it and start to capture your base and you all don't pay attention to the flahing base and don't defend-then that would be your fault wouldn't it?
So to make my point-I do not think that requiring 20 troops for base capture (in some maps) is unreasonable at all. This week would be a good time to give it a try
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Wotan's actually coming close to being less uptight and actually funny.
Brady, did you change his perscription or something? :D
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Originally posted by Mike_2851
The slot map for instance-for all the whining about the plane set was a map in which base capture and "the ground war" were basically non-exisistant.
So 28, what you are saying is that the Slot map is realistic. The majority of the fighting was over the land in the air and on the sea with the Japs trying to press on Henderson when they could. Damn those CT staffers for giving us a realistic WWII map, damn you all!!! ;)
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
So 28, what you are saying is that the Slot map is realistic. The majority of the fighting was over the land in the air and on the sea with the Japs trying to press on Henderson when they could. Damn those CT staffers for giving us a realistic WWII map, damn you all!!! ;)
LMAO-Yeah Diablo, I guess that's what I said.
:D
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Well, first off... NOTHING in this game is realistic, lol. A single 500lb. bomb should level a hangar, period. We have what, 2000+ to drop the damn thing? Yeah... real... okay.
Now, gameplay is the word of the day, that's what you have to use to balance things like reality and this game.
I actually like the idea of more troops for a capture. No way 10 troops could capture and hold a field for any length of time. And anything that brings this GAME closer to a SIM is good, imo.
Hardness... HELL NO!! It does NOT take 38000 lbs of bombs to drop anything, that is pure bull****! VH should drop with a single 500lb bomb., when was a VH ever reinforced or armored? Keep the other hangars as they are now. No to the increase of hardness to the ack guns too... but if possible, make them harder to hit, as they would be in reality. Hardness on fuel should actually be lowered, it does not take 300 rounds to blow a fuel tank. Basically, I understand that hardness has to be set high for gameplay, but it's getting nuts!
Yup, it takes a full load in a B-17 to drop a hangar.... BULL****!! Ya see where I'm coming from?
There's a solution in here somewhere and they WILL find it. to the staff for their work, we ***** while they work, and they do it for free... something to think about.
guess I'll just keep playing and see what happens... my guess? Nothing will change, lol
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Well, first off... NOTHING in this game is realistic, lol. A single 500lb. bomb should level a hangar, period. We have what, 2000+ to drop the damn thing? Yeah... real... okay.
Yeah and it realistic to have flight stopped at some random time frame because a building is blown up. When you hit a hanger you are not blowing up a building you are closing down an airfield. How much tonnage do you think you need for that?
Also hangers werent magical buildings containing an endless supply of planes.
So I guess we all agree that the whole war winning/strat thing is just silly :p
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In reality, that dead hangar wouldn't totally shut down the airfield for fighters, only the ones in for work would be destroyed. That is covered by the fact that even small fields have 2 fighter hangars. If we really wanted to get REAL with this, we should keep tabs on how many people have upped from each field, and not let anyone beyond that field's capacity get up, and at the same time, a sneak attack should find birds out on the dirt, away from the hangar, that need to be strafed. And, when you kill one that way, one less should be allowed to take off from that field.
Basically, the point is, we will NEVER have realism in this "sim" due to gameplay requirements. So... this can never be a true sim... it's a game. And as such, it's up to the people who set it up as far as what we can and can't do, and what is close to realism and what is not. Reality? You'll never find it here... go join the air farce.
Uhh... sorry John... I like the air farce, really! heh...
GO ARMY!!
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Oh, and about that "magical hangar'... YES, the hangars in AH ARE magical! As long as they are up, you can spawn as many planes as you want. Next?
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While gameplay is the ultimate factor in whether a game succeeds or fails, I would still like to see more historically accurate situations in my games. I like the immersion one gets in the CT, its the main reason why I fly CT and AH. Some people like squads, some don't. I like the team work aspect and the feeling of "being there" as much as is possible with today's technology. If I want arcade, I play BF1942 or MoH, but for WWII combat sims AH is still my fave even if the graphics are looking very aged.
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Hey Diablo, the gentleman in your avaitar looks much like Louis Siffer.. Am I right?
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You are correct sirrrrr....yessssss!!
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And here I thought maybe Bob DeNiro was making a new movie.
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He is. It's called "We're No Angels II". Straight to video I heard...
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While we are on the subject of closing a field.... one little point I would like to bring up that AH really needs to address.
BOMB CRATERS
You ever notice how you can taxi your aircraft right over a bomb crater on the field and it doesn't do anything?
While blowing up hangars was always a major plus - one of the most used methods of closing a airfield in all the major wars of the past was simply to make the runways or fields unuseable by cratering them so planes couldn't take off or taxi.
In WARBIRDS this was an actual tactic. You put enough bombs around the where the planes spawned and they weren't going anywhere - the field was effectively closed. There were several spawn points so one bomb couldn't close down a whole field - you had to really crater the place up. Just like in a real attack.
Would like to see this in the new version of AH.
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Have always wondered about that too Jester.
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Originally posted by Shane
i've brought this up to individual CT staffers, but never here...
we all know some maps are more "milky" than others, i think it might be a good idea to make base capture require 15, 20, even 25 troops. this doesn't prevent serious base captures, but it does reduce the ability of 1 or 2 people to milk.
the time frame for the troops to capture could even been shortened.
i'd start with 15 to see the effect that has.
just a suggestion... chime in with your .02
Absolutely.
Make it a team effort or nothing.
Sakai
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95277
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Your absolutely right Sakai,
Couple of Milkrunners have ruined the map. Make base capture hard enough that only a team can do it. Say at least 3-4 working together.
If ya don't want to work as team, Go to the MA.
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ACHTUNG CT FAITHFUL!
Your constant B**chinging...er...suggestion input has not gone unheard by your friendly neighborhood CT Staffer.
So...While it is on my set-up...
For the "last two days of the scenario" - I will be raising the ammount of troops to capture a base to 15 TROOPS as a test.
IF things work out well we may keep it that way - if not it will revert to the old setting of 10 troops to capture a field.
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Good deal Jester, thank you.
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Originally posted by Jester
ACHTUNG CT FAITHFUL!
For the "last two days of the scenario" - I will be raising the amount of troops to capture a base to 15 TROOPS as a test.
good idea, thx for at least trying.
hope you'll reset arena to the default bases first, tho'
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Thanks for giving it a go, jester.
And, um .... you'll never guess what squad was in there running the bases at 3 a.m. CDT Tuesday.
:rolleyes:
Splash1
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5:00 am : Well ... Splurts said he only milked one. Then he squealed on his buddy "HACKMAN". Only one of them in UDET. Rus fields down to 10. Hopefully they stay dedicated to reseting the map. If not, it'll be an interesting primetime reaction. Hehe. Oh well. Splurts said he had a life but he's on holiday. ;)
Eh ... it's a game. Someone'll fix it when enough noise is made. :D
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Originally posted by Shane
good idea, thx for at least trying.
hope you'll reset arena to the default bases first, tho'
check arena this morning 4 russian bases left - fin/germ milkrunners busy last night :(
please reset room
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I think it would be wrong to make what is essentially the whole art of attacking an enemy (i.e. where he is weakest) into something deemed wrong.
In WW2 they tried to attack with suprise and where they werent expected. Even more so because they actually died if they screwed up.
Milkrunning can be annoying but it can also be enjoyable to do if you log on and dont feel like huge battles. I think all players should be allowed to play as they see fit. Remember some players arent as good at the game as others. Why should they be forced to fight and consistantly die to a superior player just because that 'superior player' doesnt want to have to move around defending his bases?
I think you guys are being just a tad selfish but i do understand your feelings about losing bases minutes after you fight hard to take them because some dweeb takes a m3 in before the base respawns. It DOES suck yes! but in the end its up to you to look for the sods :p
sorry thats just my veiw. I do however see the raising of troops required being a good compromise. This would indeed stop single or pairs of players from milkrunning and I really cant see why you dont like it brady :) come now ! arent you also being a tad selfish to ddismiss the idea? :D :D
Why not try 15 troops? I realise the first guy drops 10 troops and doesnt get the capture but he doesnt lose much in the way of score. he still gets his troops in and i beleive thats classed as 10 hits for his hit %. He just doesnt get that 10 perks.
People would start to go in pairs more I think and this would be ok by me. Im all for slowing the pace of captures.
After all in the real war often fronts were very static for months until a concerted effort in an attack made a breakthrough. If we had bases needing 20 troops to capture we would only see bases captured by a organised attack. Milk runs would be very much more difficult for the single or paired dweebs ((ive done it too but shhhhh dont tell them! ;))
just my veiw
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Originally posted by hazed-
I think it would be wrong to make what is essentially the whole art of attacking an enemy (i.e. where he is weakest) into something deemed wrong.
In WW2 they tried to attack with suprise and where they werent expected. Even more so because they actually died if they screwed up.
Milkrunning can be annoying but it can also be enjoyable to do if you log on and dont feel like huge battles.
Sure, sometimes I simply feel like reading a book and cruising around bombing and encountering one or two rather than 40 guys.
However, I don't set a goal to capture all bases while no one is up, in fact, while I might bomb something for a change of pace, I rarely if ever will capture an undefended base in the CT unless it is a place I want for a future furball/operations site.
There is a difference between what you are describing and hard core milksters. Also, if some defenders get up I don't switch to the most remote undefended base again in hopes of avoiding detection, or log off/auger in mid pursuit as some milkmen do to avoid giving a kill up.
I love catching Milkmen and shooting them down so I don't mind them.
Sakai
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SOME CLARIFICATIONS
1. This test WILL NOT be done to try to discourage "Milkrunners."
It was done to try to further "TEAMWORK" in the attacks on
enemy targets.
It is the job of the pilots of your side to protect ALL of your territory - not what is "Convenient" because it is close to the field you are flying out of. If that were the case all we would need is a map with two fields right beside each other.
ANY military commander will tell you that it is always easier to attack where the enemy is weakest and it is simply stupid to simply keep pounding your head against a well fortified enemy.
2. Nighttime "Milkrunning" - as for this - it is no major problem. It can easily be fixed in the morning.
I personally have no problem with it. Some people just don't like to go flying repeatily into the "Buzzsaw" trying to take a well defended base. Other times there is simply No one else playing. What should they do? Wait till someone else comes on the other side before they can play. This subject is blown WAAY out of proportion.
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a while back there was a setup that i believe was an english channel setup. the coolest thing about this setup was this. "NO BASE CAPTURE" there simply were no c47 or m3s. this is probably the best idea for this setup. i love this map but it is large and that encourages milkin. this has been apparent the last couple of mornings, with the number of bases being really scued. wish the milkers would realize you can milk without capturing. just bomb the hell outta stuff. i really enjoy flyin buffs and do this all the time. but when you spend all night capturing 95% of the enemies fields it screws up the whole dam arena. does this make you feel like a big man? hey jackarse, its the ct! you can switch side unlimited times. if you want to be a tard and roll undefended bases then just keep switchin and take the same base back from yourself. that will pad your stupid score and not "F" up the whole arena. just look at sakai's other thread where he documents how the germans were missing half of their plane set due to milkmen.
wow, where did that come from? i am just sick of the bananas. please dont tell me that they wont be milkin if i just up and defend. first off, im not gonna sit in the tower and wait for the wankin to start. if i am in the arena i am there to fly, not sit. plus you can bet the flashing base is as far from the fight as possible, so i will never get there in time. alot of the SDs wont fight once you get there to defend. these are the ".ef" dweebs, cause they dont want to get killed as that will screw up their score. anyway, it takes no talent to kill or drive an m3.
just turn the troops off so we can all just have some fun. why do you need to capture bases if both sides have the same amount? this is one of the best maps this game has ever seen and people milkin it is just a disgrace. there are good fighter, attackers, bombers, and even its own little tank town! if you just have to fly a goon or drive a jeep the resupp.
flame on!
(did i mention i am writing from work where we have just implemented a no smoking policy?)
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I think it should be at least 20 to 25 troops. Would that be a Platoon or just a squad?
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ATTENTION CT PLAYERS
FOR WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY IT WILL TAKE
15 TROOPS TO CAPTURE A FIELD OR TARGET.
This is being done as a test to see how it works. It will revert back to 10 Troops to capture a field when the next set-up comes online Friday.
Thank you.
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Jester,
The idea of making it need 15 troops to capture a base was a great one. I believe this should be a permanent part of the CT scenarios. Having spent several hours last nite trying to capture a VH, this made it a more definite challenge. Having had to use this (2 troop carriers) last nite, it's a good rule and should stay on in CT and MA.
To all CT Participants online evening of 9/4, early am 9/5,
My sincerest apologies to those who witnessed my replies to Shane's and 4510's "milkrunning" remarks. The accusation were childish, and my replies were just as childish.
Shane & 4510,
JUST SO YA KNOW, due to the rules of needing 15 troops to capture, it took several of us working together closely at least an hour. Mauser snuck up and shot me down several times on way in. ETA dragged several Axis away from goons on multiple occasions.
4510, yes, I do like flying different aircraft, fighters, bombers, and goons, and using GV's. Earlier, many Checkertails saw that a major Axis offensive was trying to take V30. We stopped what we were doing, got over there and defended it. Axis had the same opportunity but didn't take it. If either of you believes for a second that there were never "behind the lines" raids to take startegic points in WWII, go back to school.
I'll quit blabbering.
(or "slobberdonkeying" as Shane likes to say...what the heck does that mean???)
Fireof59