Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Halo on September 01, 2003, 05:03:19 PM
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At 100th Anniversary of Flight Labor Day picnic at nearby small airport, talked with WWII P-51 veteran. He said he loved all versions of the Mustang, but his favorite was the bulged hood Malcolm canopy C model.
Said it was the best flying of them all, although all were great.
Another friend told me this Pony driver was among the birds taking recon photos of the Hiroshima bomb drop. Didn't have time to get into that, unfortunately.
As many have requested, add my vote for addition of the bulged canopy P-51C. Not sure whether earlier with four .50s or later with six .50s would be optimum ride. Will leave that to the experts.
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Another friend told me this Pony driver was among the birds taking recon photos of the Hiroshima bomb drop. Didn't have time to get into that, unfortunately.
for you maybe...what would make you think he would WANT to remember that...
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"Vorticons are controlled by the Grand Intellect"
Apparently not.
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Originally posted by Squire
"Vorticons are controlled by the Grand Intellect"
Apparently not.
LOL
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Originally posted by vorticon
what would make you think he would WANT to remember that...
What makes you think they're ashamed of what they've done?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What makes you think they're ashamed of what they've done?
Its not a matter of shame. It simply may have been an unpleasant experience. No conditionals applied.
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After these Mustang III aircraft had been delivered to England, the RAF decided that the hinged cockpit canopy offered too poor a view for European operations. A fairly major modification was made in which the original framed hinged hood was replaced by a bulged Perspex frameless canopy that slid to the rear on rails. This canopy gave the pilot much more room and the huge goldfish bowl afforded a good view almost straight down or directly to the rear. This hood was manufactured and fitted by the British corporation R. Malcolm & Co., and came to be known as the "Malcolm Hood". This hood was fitted to most RAF Mustang IIIs, and many USAAF Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51B/C fighters received this modification as well.
Many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series. It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view. Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made them less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign.
The first RAF base to receive Mustang IIIs was at Gravesend in Kent. The Mustang III initially equipped No. 65 Squadron in late December of 1943, followed by No. 19 Squadron in March of 1944. Later the Mk. III also equipped Nos 64, 65, 66, 93, 94, 112, 118, 122, 126, 129, 165, 234, 237, 241 249, 250, 260, 268, 306, 309, 315, 316, 345, 430, 441, 442, and 516 Squadrons and No. 541 Squadron of RAF Coastal Command. These units included four Polish squadrons (306, 309, 315, 316), three RCAF, and one Free French.
The new RAF Mustang IIIs began operations late in February 1944, escorting US heavy bombers as well as both US and RAF medium bombers.
Numerous RAF Mustang IIIs were diverted to the interception of V-1 "buzz-bombs". Some of them were "souped up" by using a special high-octane fuel and internal engine adjustments in order to increase the intake manifold pressure and made it possible to achieve a speed of 420 mph at 2000 feet. Since the typical V-1 flew at 370 mph, this made the "souped-up" Mustang very useful against these weapons.
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Excellent summary, Furball. Would be very appropriate and presumably not too difficult for AH to add the Mustang IIIs, which also would give the RAF more credit for inspiring the Mustang in the first place.
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I have been telling ppl that the P51B is better than the D, but ppl doubt me... Ohh well there loss I guess.
Malcom Hood in AHII PLEASE!
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Dudes,
The Mustang II was a sucky car! I don't know what you are talking about. It epitomized everything that was wrong with the early 70s..
wait...
what?
never mind...
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I have never flew the real mustang, but my grand father did. In his journal he talked about the diffrence between a few planes. His squadron first started out in P40, then went to the P51 B models, then they got some new C models and then the D. The D model was tolerated but not well liked. Alot of pilots, stayed in Bs and Cs, not becuase there wernt enough Ds, but because they liked the B and Cs better.
As for AH I think they have the FM just about right on the Pony D and B, well as close as they can get it. Since I have started flying the P51 B, I have noticed how much easer it is to get kills in. So long as I stay up high, and keep my E. The ONLY down sides, are the visabilty, and the guns. It only has four .50s, and it only carries 2 500lb bombs. The rocket tubes are pretty light, and when the rockets are used up, you can still fight pretty good with them on. The rocket tubes seem to make the rockets really go where you want them.
Over all I think the P51B is one of the best planes in the game. I would love to see it with a malcolm hood. I would love to see AH2 with a P51C model too. That would give us the same performance as the B model, with out the rocket tubes, and loading 2 1,000Lbers on it. Still only 4 .50s but hey.... works for me.
Kegger
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A P-51B with better visibility would be downright deadly. yes yes yes
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All the charts show it, but it just doesn't seem the 51B performs better than the 51D. It seems that the 51B stalls much easier than the 51D (but thats probably just me yankin harder) and the stalls in the 51B are NASTY! I always seem to lose E much more quickly in the 51B.
If a malc-hood was placed in the 51B I'd really like to fly it.
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Yeah you have to be smooth with the B, but its departure isnt that nasty, I rarely go into a spin. 90% of the time, the plane noses over and its just a matter of letting some air get under the wings, and your fine.
In the game the P51B is faster, turns better, and rolls quicker than the D. The only reasion I use the D now, is if I have a Tiger to bust.
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im a bit sceptical about the better view bit.
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Looking at the image, it is difficult to see how the view to the rear would be better, but I think the B model is a better aircraft.
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(http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/12/images/detail_spitfire_ix_28.jpg)
why should the view in the p51 be better than the spit with malcolm hood?
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As far as I'm concerned, this addition would be for visual appeal only. I have no problem with the PonyB's visibility. I have no problem with any plane's visibility. If you set your head positions to allow maximum coverage, then you're good to go.
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It would allow you to sit up higher in the aircraft and clearly see behind you.
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Uploads/malcolmhood.jpg)
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The WWII pilot I was talking to was quite emphatic about how restricted the view was in the original P-51B cockpit and how much better it was in the Malcolm hood.
This topic has been covered a lot, but I thought I should add another firsthand opinion from a guy who flew a lot of P-51s.
He said the views in the P-51D and later P-47s were ever better, but he still preferred flying the Malcolm hood P-51B/C.
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Originally posted by Kegger26
I have been telling ppl that the P51B is better than the D, but ppl doubt me... Ohh well there loss I guess.
Malcom Hood in AHII PLEASE!
D is better than the B... B may be a little more stable since its lighter, but if u want a lighter plane with a better view go with the D and 4x.50 cals.
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simply subtracting 2 .50s from the D model is hardly enough of a weight loss to be of any use at all. The D model was nearly 500 lbs heaver than the B model and thats with a clean D model (with out guns)
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They seem pretty even to me in the game... Never flown one in real life so im talking from the game perspective.
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BTW Both Empty ... Im showing only 275 Lbs of difference.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6952/P51FEN.html
And then this site is showing a difference of only 160 lbs, both empty
http://members.tripod.com/~P51Mustang/specs.htm
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Sorry to say, but if they both feel the same to you in the game.... you suck.... They feel nothing alike. As for your weight charts... I think they are a bit skewed. I will keep with my scorce (North American Avation) for the exsact weights. Proof of this is in the P51H model. North American was able to shave off nearly 700 lbs in weight from the D model.
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Originally posted by Kegger26
Sorry to say, but if they both feel the same to you in the game.... you suck....
LOL i know i do, but thanks for pointing that out ;)
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any time ;)
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yeah! wldthing! you suck...... LOL :D
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Originally posted by Kegger26
Sorry to say, but if they both feel the same to you in the game.... you suck....
May I suggest you take Wldthing to the DA sometime and you'll see just how much he 'sucks'. Wldthing is the best P51 stick I know of. The rest of us pony drivers are only wannabes compared to this guy.
Anyway a C pony that goes 420 at 2k?? Gimme gimme gimme:) You would see a marked decrease in 'la7, i can catch anything if i chase long enough' kind of mentality!!
As for the merits of the C Vs D you can give me a D anyday, IMHO the B's lack of speed up high combined with the 4 50 cals outweigh its undisputed other benefits. I cant say I have ever been troubled by the view in the D model. Once you got the views set up right its pretty much a 360 (with a little tail wiggle:) )
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Originally posted by Furball
yeah! wldthing! you suck...... LOL :D
LOL Furball i love you too! :D
Thanks for the kind words Grem, even though their prolly not the truth lol :D
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I like em all!
The C would seem an appropriate addition to AH2 IMHO.
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Damn... ppl lighten up. I ment no disrespect. You guys get all bent out of shape the second someone says anything out of relm you get your pantys in a bunch.
FYI the Pony B is still better than the D ;)
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Originally posted by Octavius
As far as I'm concerned, this addition would be for visual appeal only. I have no problem with the PonyB's visibility. I have no problem with any plane's visibility. If you set your head positions to allow maximum coverage, then you're good to go.
The retrofitted P-51B/C with the Malcom Hood allowed the pilot a good view almost straight down and directly to the rear.
What I found surprising is that many USAAF and RAF Mustang pilots considered the P-51B/C with the Malcom Hood and improved guns and ammunition feed the best Mustang of the entire series. With the better visibility from the Malcom Hood, lower weight, benign depature characteristics and lack of structural problems that plagued the D model, they argued the P-51B/C was a far better fighter.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Kegger26
Damn... ppl lighten up. I ment no respect. You guys get all bent out of shape the second someone says anything out of relm you get your pantys in a bunch.
You should take your own advice, i was the one with the alternate statement about the P51D/B, and you got your panties in a bunch by stating " I suck".
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"Damn... ppl lighten up. I ment no respect. You guys get all bent out of shape the second someone says anything out of relm you get your pantys in a bunch."
You got that part right (no repect) when you blurted out ...
"Sorry to say, but if they both feel the same to you in the game.... you suck.... They feel nothing alike."
but I do have to agree with you ... WldThing sucks in anything he flys ... from my experience ...
1) Spit V
2) Hurri I
3) C205
4) and last but not least P51-D
yup .. he SUCKS the life right out of you within about 20 seconds !!! (longest I lasted I think)
<> WT
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Originally posted by SlapShot
[Bbut I do have to agree with you ... WldThing sucks in anything he flys ... from my experience ...
[/B]
Jeez guys your bringing me to tears here.. I know i suck, do you not have any sympathy for a fellow human being? :D ;)
All in good fun Slap! =S!!=
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Well since even I have now shot wldthing down he must really suck! We are talking botton of the barrel suckedge here. ssssllllluuuurrrrpppppp!
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Originally posted by WldThing
do you not have any sympathy for a fellow human being? :D ;)
What your human?? :eek: I could live with the fact that you were a computer program designed with all of the best flying styles of the best WW2 flyers, but human?? Nah, I can't handle that.:p
:D
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Hurry slap the bandwagon is pulling out of the station... hurry... you dont want to miss it.
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Originally posted by Gremlin
What your human?? :eek:
My lady says im true man and much much more!! :D :D
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ANNNNNNY WAYYYYSSSSS
Back on topic...
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For those that don't know, there's no difference between the "B" and "C" models except that they were built in different plants. The "C" was built in Dallas and the "B" was built in Long Beach. I haven't seen any Malcom hoods on "C" models, only "B" models. For some reason, the "C" models only showed up in the Mediterranean theater.
which also would give the RAF more credit for inspiring the Mustang in the first place.
The RAF didn't inspire the Mustang, they were just the first to fly it in combat. They didn't like it because of the Allison's weaknesses at high altitude, hence the introduction of the Rolls-Merlin with the two-stage supercharger.
Q: Which version of the Mustang produced the first "Mustang" ace of WW2?
:cool:
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Originally posted by 2stony
Q: Which version of the Mustang produced the first "Mustang" ace of WW2?
:cool:
The Allison Powered A-36?
Pilot - Capt. Mike Russo
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Originally posted by 2stony
The RAF didn't inspire the Mustang, they were just the first to fly it in combat. They didn't like it because of the Allison's weaknesses at high altitude, hence the introduction of the Rolls-Merlin with the two-stage supercharger.
I think that comment is in reference to the name eventually given to the P-51. It was the British that first called it the Mustang, just like they were the first ones to call the P-38 the Lightning.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by 2stony
The RAF didn't inspire the Mustang, they were just the first to fly it in combat. They didn't like it because of the Allison's weaknesses at high altitude, hence the introduction of the Rolls-Merlin with the two-stage supercharger.
:cool:
Ermmm wasn't the original Mustang designed for the brits in the first place???
SKurj
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Originally posted by 2stony
The RAF didn't inspire the Mustang, they were just the first to fly it in combat. They didn't like it because of the Allison's weaknesses at high altitude, hence the introduction of the Rolls-Merlin with the two-stage supercharger.
No, the RAF only made the specification, first flew it in combat and named it... oh, and put a decent engine in it.
Apart from that they had nothing to do with it. nada.
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The Allison Powered A-36? Pilot Mike Russo.
WldThing is the winner!
I got to meet Mike Russo at last year's American Fighter Aces reunion. He's in his mid-80s and still goes to work every day. It was cool listening to his stories about combat in North Africa.
:cool:
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LOL ... yup thats me ... bangwagon jumper.
Here is some advise for you ...
Better to keep one's mouth shut and thought a fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt.
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.squelch SlapShot
..... damn didnt work.... that was sooo last week.... try to keep up mmmkay?
back on topic
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Originally posted by HavocTM
Dudes,
The Mustang II was a sucky car! I don't know what you are talking about. It epitomized everything that was wrong with the early 70s..
wait...
what?
never mind...
Yes but the suspension fits very well in a 65 Fairlane. The rest of the car is ****, you are right.
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The first American made plane to use the Rolls-Merlin was a P-40F that flew in combat in N. Africa.
The British put R.M.s in five Mustang I's to test them and they were designated "G" models(G meaning guarded). After that, the U.S. started putting R.M.s in P-51Bs stateside under licence from Packard.
Originally posted by Slapshot:
Better to keep one's mouth shut and thought a fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Did you come up with that one yourself Slappy? How original! :rolleyes: