Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on November 30, 2001, 07:06:00 AM
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...per TG or better yet, hardened CV's.
This suicide crap is stupid. There is debate here about the "realism" of the radar but yet some of these "realists" kamikaze a CV without any intention of surviveing the sortie. How does it go? Cake and something?
Oh yeah, I know. Cap the CV. I have no interest in chasing a vertically diving aircraft at 500 mph into my own CV and dieing along with him. That would kinda counter my argument would it?
My solution? Harden the CV's. Currently we can resupply/rebuild fields and cities and such. Now it would be a little silly to fly a C47 out to the CV so how about this?
Once the CV takes damage, the CV goes into auto repair, simulating fire & damage control. Allow the damage to reduce flight ops, i.e., reduce fuel load or ord load or delay fighter takeoff by xx seconds or any combination of these.
Also, as the CV takes more damage, disrupt CV manuverability. Disable rudder function for example, thus not allowing the CV to be turned left or right or not at all as the damage becomes more severe. Even slow the TG down due to damage?
All of this occurs in a time frame weighted by damage inflicted versus damage repaired. Inflict enough damage and the CV is destroyed. Allow the CV to repair and the CV is fully functional.
In other words, the CV must take a continous barrage during this time frame to counter the damage control.
If you don't get back in time after your first suicide, you gotta do it all over again ...and again ...and again. :D
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Oh yea Apache we do need more CVS. I really think it would rock.
But a few things i want to add here about "suicide bombers". i have sunk many, many CVs in my hellcat. Several times i have had to drop my ORD with 1 wing or other serious damage that you cannot physicly pull up from. More times than not, this is the case. But i always sink the ship.
theres a few things that could be at fault. The instant replane feature. And the frailness of the CVs. No one really cares if they die killing something all they have to do is rewpawn take off again, im not asking to have some other system here just pointing out why its like that (this applies to a lot of other problems IMO in the MA).
They could also bea lil tougher, in one dive i release 2 x 1000 lbs bombs and 6 rockets and the ship goes "boommm"
Increasing the ammount of ships in the group could help tremendously.
<<Edited for addition>>
Maybe if there was a delay in which the CV sunk after the boogey hits it, and if the perp dies in the next 30 seconds the ship retains the damage but does not sink. So it will just take a few hits from another boogey to take it down, if in fact he lives.
Just an idea, i dont fully back it though simply because suicide bombing played a huge role in WWI and WWII warfare.
[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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I'd like to see CV'require about 1/2 as much as an HQ, say 10,000 lbs. and have its rebuild time internally(after bomb hits) to 30 min. ie: you must put 10,000 lbs on it within 30 min. to destroy it.
I've had many a great furballs with enemy both off land and on CV only to be ruined by a suicide bomber.
Also, if the suicide bomber that sinks CV dies, they should get 0 points, or better yet, dock them -5 perkies for dying!
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Problem is the same as for Buffs, solution is the same as for buffs.
The defensive fire is so extremely overpowered that the damage model is tuned for low values.
Give a CV some serious hardness but tune its ack to decent levels and give the human ack gunners no range icon to do their magic hitting ;).
Then I'm sure that the kamikaze stuff would die forever.
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I would like the TG to use Pepper Shell so no more ack umbrella effect ... :rolleyes:
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I disagree. I don't think Ack is overpowered. I do think high alt Flak is far away what it should be, but not close light ack. If you dive against 6 boats in close formation, you should expect to die fast.
As for the Kamikaze thing, It's all about CAP. We have a long range radar that, providing there is a CAP force airborne, gives plenty of time to intercept. If you let any plane to get near enough your CV, there is a fair chance (and I think that was the case IRL) that this CV is sunk or very badly damaged. Since we do not model deck damage, nor individual ack positions' damage, It is well modelled (IMHO) as it is.
Another completely different issue is the 10+k level bombing. Midway battle showed clearly that this was an impossible thing to achieve, except for an immensely lucky drop + negligent man at the helm. But I do not want to give the Buff horse another kick. It's dead ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
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I've sunk many CV's and lived, simply by releasing at a higher altitude. It takes practice, like anything difficult should. These suiciders are just going right in at the cv, dropping at 500 feet above them and augering in.
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Thats right rip. They are going in at max velocity. Doesn't matter to them about wing shearing or any damage to their aircraft. You simply can't CAP that, not more than 1 anyway. Last night was a good example. I got 2 of em but the third dove straight into the CV from WAY up. Down she went.
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I like the idea of the CV taking bomb damage and closing flight ops for 10-20 mins while it rebuilds. If hit by 10,000lbs it goes under any less the CV takes damage to fuel, ord or hanger.
I think that the only thing that should sink a CV immediately is torpedo damage...
I wouldn't want multiple CV's in a fleet, but perhaps rather than 1 fleet per port we could have 2 seperate CV fleets.
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That's quite a brilliant idea, Skernsk. I like it :)
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Originally posted by skernsk:
I like the idea of the CV taking bomb damage and closing flight ops for 10-20 mins while it rebuilds. If hit by 10,000lbs it goes under any less the CV takes damage to fuel, ord or hanger.
I think that the only thing that should sink a CV immediately is torpedo damage...
Well, CV's still operated when struck by bombs, their flight decks were quite large, so I would say it would be dependant on where the bomb stuck...crater-type holes in the deck, or, the golden BB thru an elevator deck that would not allow further aircraft to launch until repaired. That would require the agressor to either use skill, or have cooperation from others to disable flight.
Good idea with alittle refinement Skersk.
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I agree 100% that the damage model for the fleets needs revision. But what does this have to do with the people who call for a revised radar model?
Westy
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
I agree 100% that the damage model for the fleets needs revision. But what does this have to do with the people who call for a revised radar model?
Westy
Come again?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Well, CV's still operated when struck by bombs, their flight decks were quite large, so I would say it would be dependant on where the bomb stuck...
Good idea with alittle refinement Skersk.
I'm not sure that the code can be written to know WHERE the bomb hit the CV, but the code can be done in this way:
2k -- fuel and ammo to 50%
4K -- fuel and ammo to 25%
6K -- flight ops shut down
8k -- flight ops and PT's shut down
10K - fleet sunk
This way the killing of a CV needs to be done with teamwork and 1 kamakzee can't destoy the fleet. BUT Mr.Kamakazee still has the ability to do some damage to the fleet as it did in real life.
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
I agree 100% that the damage model for the fleets needs revision. But what does this have to do with the people who call for a revised radar model?
Westy
It means don't use the "realism" argument about radar, then suicide a CV. This is not to imply that all those who argue the radar thing does this, but you know who you are that do.
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Im a suicide bomber, but you shouldnt hate me im on your side! :)
They should take a lil more damage then what it takes now. Rebuilding would also be awesome, there is a virtaul "crew" on the ship to do so.
It would be cool to have multiple CVs launching from 1 port and also more ships in a battle group.
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Amon, I think we're all suicide bombers at one point or another, hell I do it when its necessary...its just that its too damn easy, and so far I've yet to see anyone disagree, what do you say HTC? Change it?
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BTW, not that it matters much but didn't I say what skernsk is saying?
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Yes you did Apache! Good idea Apache! (Took that damn Evelians speed reading course, now I miss half the information when I read!)
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Originally posted by skernsk:
I'm not sure that the code can be written to know WHERE the bomb hit the CV, but the code can be done in this way:
2k -- fuel and ammo to 50%
4K -- fuel and ammo to 25%
6K -- flight ops shut down
8k -- flight ops and PT's shut down
10K - fleet sunk
This way the killing of a CV needs to be done with teamwork and 1 kamakzee can't destoy the fleet. BUT Mr.Kamakazee still has the ability to do some damage to the fleet as it did in real life.
Great idea, dont totaly agree but it is deffinately in the right direction. I laugh at the fact that i can single handedly take down a CV in one dive. But it wont stop me from explioting it.
i'll normaly restrain my self from doing so until the CV starts firing, and hitting my base. Simply because its good fun to have a fight that close to your base, but not when they are trying to capture it.
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Originally posted by Apache:
BTW, not that it matters much but didn't I say what skernsk is saying?
Sorry Apache I kinda hijacker yer thread I guess.
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Sorry for bringing up AW, but, I believe that when you died in AW your bombs disappeared along with you. This might discourage some Kamikazis.
(http://midnightburma.freeservers.com/images/tgtag.jpg)
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Originally posted by skernsk:
Sorry Apache I kinda hijacker yer thread I guess.
No, my apologies to you. Didn't mean it to sound that way. I was just wondering if I had been ignored, lol.
Actually, you said what I was trying to but you said it better. My thoughts weren't all inclusive anyway. Refinement to an idea is great if you ask me.
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Here's a radical idea that'll never be taken seriously, but oh well. Based on the if you die your bombs disappear (it's been talked about here before, and as tah gut said, was a feature in AW.) Obviously, if you die and bombs disappear, the whines of "how unfair" "how unrealistic" will never cease. First off, it isn't fair, IMO, that you can just throw your virtual life and plane away intentionally, have your bombs hit, and be up in the air again within 10 seconds (not to mention it isn't realistic, so don't gimme the bombs disappearing ain't realistic gig either.) So it's all about gameplay. Well, "enhance" the gameplay by adding a choice. Make the bombs disappear after death unless you "pay" for them somehow. Mechanics of this would be you load some bombs on your plane in the hangar. You click a spawn button and it asks you if you want your bombs to survive your death or not. If no, you don't lose anything when you die, but your bombs go with you. If yes, your bombs keep going on death, but you gotta pay a price. Maybe it's perk points or maybe it's a "time out" where you can't respawn for a few minutes. Whatever the price, it's a choice now, and kamikaze has consequences.
Honestly, I prefer strengthening the ships myself.
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Rather than have them disappear just don't allow the pilot to recieve points or credit for any kills.
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Im doubtful that not reciving points for sinking the carrier would detour anyone from doing it to save there base, for example.
Surely i would still suicide bomb if needed.
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I believe in AW the bombs did hit after you were shot down. You could even get credit for them if they hadn't hit the target before you upped again.
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apache is soooo touchy but.... he is correct. Steal his idea again and you will force him to take his rifle up to the tower but... Fix the damn CV's they are as embarassing as the fluffs.
My preference would be for multiple cv's in a group. You could damage flight operations for.... say, the time it took one suicide bomber to get back up and to you. say.. 5-8 minutes? The other cv's would of course still be able to launch ac.
The other major issue is... level bombing rarely hit ships. It just didn't work. It shouldn't here. not simply because of "realism" but because it changes the whole way strat works in gamey way. Fluffers shouldn't even bother with ships unless they skip bomb or some such against defensless shipping. Of which, we have none.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
Fluffers shouldn't even bother with ships unless they skip bomb or some such against defensless shipping. Of which, we have none.
Lazs brings up another good point unknowingly, we got trains, and convoys but no trade ships.. Yes i know you hate strat Lazs but it would be a nice addition to the seas.
level bombing a carrier is one of the most rediculous aspects of CV battles, it bothers me even more than suicide bombers.
Having multiple carriers would be more signifigant simply because the idea of a CV is to have a mobile "base" and a mobile base should have more than one "hanger".
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Once bomb dispersion is modeled, the level bomber CV killers will be history for the most part (which I find far more annoying than suicide bombers).
Easiest solution to Suicide bombers is one of two options. Toughen up the carriers or put multiple carriers in the group...well there's the other option, STOP BEING A DORK SUICIDE BOMBER!! :D Thats the best solution really, hell If I can sink CV's dive bombing fighters and survive...ANYONE CAN sheesh. Not every time but more often than not.
Tumor
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Originally posted by Tumor:
Easiest solution to Suicide bombers is one of two options. Toughen up the carriers or put multiple carriers in the group...well there's the other option, STOP BEING A DORK SUICIDE BOMBER!! :D Thats the best solution really, hell If I can sink CV's dive bombing fighters and survive...ANYONE CAN sheesh. Not every time but more often than not.
Tumor
LOL, oh ya, we'd get 100% cooperation from this diverse community. ;)
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There's no way a level bomber could sink an AH CV that is taking evasives. IMO if the CV is not taking evasives then there is a dolt at the helm or probably no one at all. In which case it's like shooting down someone on autopilot or AFK. Easy meat.
The first problem is the fleet has a very low ordinance tolerance and an overly simplistic damage model. The secondary issue is the idjits who suicide bomb. And I don't think there is an easy answer to solve that. Just as there isn't for the land base "pork&auger" morons. IMO if the gameplay is simple then simple minds will only think of simple tactics.
Without fear of death or any consequence for thier actions the sky is really the limit as far as how some people will go to "game" the game.
Fist off I think they need to add another CV and a light cruiser (for the extra ack-ack) to each fleet and make the ordinance to sink each xxxx amount and all delivered within xxx minutes of each other. Then it wil take whole squads of suicide pigeons to do the job.
Westy
[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Silly newbie question, but can convoys be resupplied and repaired?
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not compleatly off subject here but how many hits from a shore battery does it take to down a cv the other day a took out a cv with i think two hits it seems like it would take a lot more than that to down a cv.
also if the cv is sunk why cant the captian just transfer his flag to another ship the other ships souuld not dissapper when the cv is sunk.
then if the captian makes it back to a port with his remaining ships he can get a new cv.
just a thought...
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Originally posted by Tumor:
well there's the other option, STOP BEING A DORK SUICIDE BOMBER!! :D
Heck no! as long as it is set up how it is, its a easy 5 points and a base saver for me. :D
Toss in another CV or make them tougher and i may think twice about wasting 15 minutes climbing to ALT and suicide bombing to only damage the carrier slightly, or only get one of them.
in addition i think it makes more sense to make them have different levels of damage as stated before. And make them repairable from resupply. We could have them start smoking real bad when they are unusable to signify they are damaged and if they are damged more they sink.
im all for it :)
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I just posted this eleswhere but this is one means of helping to eliminate DivineHotwind types:
The suicide pilot always uses bombs and rockets. They never even try pulling out and they always die moments after bomb release. So an easy fix with minimal gameplay dispruption for the majority of players...
Perk the iron and rocket ordinance in AH. To carry any ordinance, besides gun ammo or torpedos, it would cost 1 perk point per load. Then have it so that anytime someone wants to be a "hero boy" as they choose to protect thier base at all costs by going out in a dweebish blaze of glory with a lame DivineHotwind stunt on a CV they lose all thier perk points. PLUS! They go into the hole for 300 more. This should replicate kamikaze death well enough. And best of all they will have to fly fighters or empty bombers for about a week or two before they can get enough points to suicide bomb anything again.
This would only apply to those who die mere seconds after dropping thier bombs on a CV after having dove on it with more than 20degress down angle during the attack. So if you dive, drop on target, pull out and begin egressing then at least five seconds have gone by disqualifying you as a suicide bomber and more importantly by also pulling out of the dive you regained those dive angles back to the horizontal and once again wouldn't count as an ultimate dweeb suicide bomber.
To those who would intend to pull out but the ack gets you first? Well if the ack gets you while you're under 2k in range you couldn't have pulled out anyway. So? So Solly <bows> You paid the ultimate sacrifice and the Emporer thanks you. Just pull out sooner next time.
Westy
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I like the idea of the CV having its flight ops reduced as it receives damage.
The ONLY reason why I dont even try to live through a CV attack (and why I kamikaze it) is because of the 1 ping death ack, the ridiculously easy way a human 5" flak gunner can kill you and because I want the damn cv to stop launching fighters. The only way to do that is to sink it.
Now, if the cv took 2k bombs and its fuel and ord loads begin to go down, i'd be more inclined to try and survive the mission.
But then again, you people dont CAP the fargin CV's and cry about kamikazes. Hint: They come low, heavy and slow. Easy kills. The CV is there to be killed, so protect it. Dont protect it, it will die REGARDLESS of how much you toughen it up.
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Uhm, maybe make it so that ordnance falling down from above onto the flight deck does a lot less damage than it does now and make it so that damage from the sides and below the flight deck do major/sinking damage. Maybe make it so it takes more than one bomber or kamikaze to sink her but only 1 torpedo in contrast. This might make suicide bombers feel it a waste of time and would urge players to hop into TBMs (or JU88s or PTs.) Also, I am under the idea that though torpedo attacks in WW2 were highly dangerous, many of the attackers were able to overfly their targets (carriers) and survive. There is NO way in AH that you can do that with the lazer ack model as it stands. So maybe tone that down too. And maybe then there would actually be a reason to fly the TBMs. I'd love to see or be a part of a gaggle of TBMs with escort on the way for business.
(Some TBM pics from last TOD...and surprisingly, it was a blast!)
http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmack1.jpg (http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmack1.jpg) http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmack2.jpg (http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmack2.jpg) http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmturn.jpg (http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmturn.jpg) http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmformation.jpg (http://members.home.net/barking.pig/images/tbmformation.jpg)
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There's no way a level bomber could sink an AH CV that is taking evasives. IMO if the CV is not taking evasives then there is a dolt at the helm or probably no one at all. In which case it's like shooting down someone on autopilot or AFK. Easy meat.
Not true westy... as a matter of fact.. quite false. I've seen many an occasion where a 10k-20k bomber has nailed a turning CV. I've done it myself. It can be done. Hell... I still seem to hit them when they turn after I'd released my ORD.
I just can't envision that a single bomber was able to fly over a battle group solo. Period.
As for the rest of it... the CVs do need to be adjusted and the ideas above are pretty decent. But remember, the CV was made softer for a reason... and I haven't seen them post here yet.
AKDejaVu
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Well, I imagine if a Lanc with it's 14 one thousand pounders dropped the whole lot that even a few could hit. Which is all that is necesary to kill the CV. Perhaps the 1.09 changes will help that with it's bomb "dispersion" (for lack of the right word at the moment) planned.
Westy
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Ok how about this:
CV damage to sink = 12k of bombs.
first 2k damage, fuel goes to 50%
6k damage, fuel to 25%, no ordenance.
8k damage CV loses speed, cannot launch any fighters
10k damage begins to list, stops repairing.
12k glug glug glug.
TORPEDOES: Up the damage a torpedo does (for gameplay reasons). Make each torpedo do 4k of damage. That way 3 torps would sink the cv.
Change the AAA of the fleet to be 20mm's, not the insta-kill 150mm howitzers. Make the flak be MANNED only. AI flak rarely kills..and if it kills, it kills 500mph things (grr).
Add "Zig Zag" option for fleet command. It will help evade.
Increase fleet dot bar range to 25 miles. (but no dot dar for planes below 500ft).
THEN the fleets would indeed be balanced. Both attackers and defenders would have an equal chance at a fair fight, not the current "kill cv at any cost or it will launch the endless horde of smurfs and meatballs until our field falls" dogma.