Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bigred on September 03, 2003, 03:05:09 PM
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So with TOD we get 2 sides with lots of automated missions and "avatars"...roughly.
Is HTC going to add needed Axis buffs/ect, or does the Axis as a whole have to rely on JABO/tactical operations to deal with "winning the war/ strat"?
Lets look at the general comparison:
Fighters
Allies: lots
Axis: lots
Attack
Allies: mosquito, a-20
Axis: 110
CAS
Allies: IL-2 (plus lots of heavy JABO fighters)
Axis: ??? (few JABO fighters)
Medium Buff:
Allies: B-26, Boston
Axis: Ju-88, Ki-67
Heavy Buffs:
Allies: B-17, Lanc.
Axis: ???
Misc:
Perk planes: The Axis have all the GREAT perk birds (Arado, 163, 262). Perhaps with some heavy perk alterations, some of these might make up for the planset deficencies in TOD.
So what do you think is the answer? Will HTC fill in planset gaps, or will the community split and as teams simply learn to specialize their war-fighting tactics???
-Bigred
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Originally posted by bigred
Medium Buff:
Allies: B-26, Boston
Axis: Ju-88, Ki-67
Heavy Buffs:
Allies: B-17, Lanc.
Axis: ???
AH's Ju88 carries more ordnance than AH's B-17.
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Well... Sure.
Ju88: 4x500kg (roughly 4400lbs) plus 20x50kg (roughly 2200lbs) = 6600lbs
B-17: 6x1000lbs = 6000lbs
Add in the incredibly potent guns on the Ju88 as well as it's incredible toughness, and yeah, the extra 600lbs of tiny bomb ordnance is a big win. ;)
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The Germans never really used a heavy bomber. But the He-111 and Do-17 should be added for medium bombers when we start to get new planes.
Japan however, could use 1 or 2 heavy bombers.
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Originally posted by Inferno
Japan however, could use 1 or 2 heavy bombers.
According to the Japanese the Ki-67 is a heavy bomber.
If, for Axis vs. Allies, non-historical setups we want some Axis heavy bombers then the only real choices are the He177A-5 and H8K2 "Emily".
Neither had much impact in the real war, but both would be quite servicable as real heavy bombers in the MA or CT.
I'm still not clear on the He177A-5's payload, but the H8K2 could carry two 1,500kg bombs or eight 250kg bombs or sixteen 100kg bombs or two 800kg torpedoes, was well armored and defended and had a surplus of engine power.
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The Germans never really used a heavy bomber.
Over 1000 He-177 were built.
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Originally posted by Pei
Over 1000 He-177 were built.
Which never so heavy, sustained usage like the B-17, B-24, B-29, Lancaster or Halifax.
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Without doing a lot of digging, another valid Axis bomber would be the Dornier DO217E-2 or M-1
Max speed at 17,600ft : 320 E-2 / 348 M-1
Max bomb load: 8,818 lbs ( 4,000 KG )
Production: approx 1,750 ( all 217 variants )
First flown in 1938.
Some interesting notes about the aircraft as they were outfitted with missiles later on and were responsible for sinking the Italian BB Roma with them after Italy's armistice.
I was looking up details of FW200C Condor and tripped over this little gem in the process.
<.S>
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APDrone,
The Do217 or Ju188 would both be good in my opinion, but German aircraft fans seem to want a big bomber, not just a load bearing medium bomber which both the Ju188 and Do217 are.
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I think, HTC has 2 real choices here...
a) they go for the "quasi-historical" but balanced TOD, where the Allies and Axis have a balanced planset turning a blind eye towards airframes that may not have had a huge real-life impact on the war.
In this case, the H8K Emily/ He-177 have real potential. They never saw much action (compared to say B-17s) but they fill a needed hole in the planesets and keep all us balanced in our WW2 sandbox.
b) they go the the "gritty-historical" TOD, where the Allies and Axis took very different approaches to the airwar. The Axis in particular would simply not get heavy bombers as they did not empasize them in reality.
In this case, HTC may have to back some perk points WAY down and allow some of the uber Axis rides on a more regular basis plus add more buff busting aircraft from both Germany/ Japan. Under this model, both teams would basicly evolve very different models of play, with the Allies empasizing "heavy offence" via buffs/escorts, while the Axis basicly resorts to dedicated "buff-busting" squadrons, with limited "tactical bombing" and a reliance on their "superior technology assets" (jets).
I haven't yet decided which model I would have more fun playing in.
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Historically Germany never had a impacting long range heavy bomber. During the Battle of Britain this came to the fore front and even though in years past many high ranking officials felt the need it never panned out.
They had to rely on 110's, JU87's, JU88's and a few others but none were dominant such as the Allied bombers. The 110's that attacked were slaughtered on there first mission and never returned above Great Britain.
Though they did get some strategic targets many were down for minimal times especially the airfields. The major targets affected were the long range radar systems. Other than that heavy losses to the Axis bombers/fighters compared to Allied targets/aircraft deemed the Axis missions a failure.
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My guess would be the more historical representation of Allies Fighters/Escorts and Bombers vs Axis Interceptors ( No or few Axis Bombers ) to start with.
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the FW200 condor was DEFINATELY a long range bomber...
remember the plans Hitler had to bomb the panama canal with them? they would only get there and not back but still thats how far?
check HERE (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76714) for more idead on bombers.
oh well just a lame thought by yours truly
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Originally posted by Pei
Over 1000 He-177 were built.
Yeah, and six of them actually flew without catching fire.
Sakai
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Originally posted by bigred
So with TOD we get 2 sides with lots of automated missions and "avatars"...roughly.
Lets look at the general comparison:
Fighters
-Bigred
The Ju88 was used like the Mosquito was, I reckon you can't leave that out of the attack role.
The Axis also has the Kate, Val and Ju87. You also left off the SBD and TBM. The Ju87 carries more tonnage than a single Boston does and places it far more accurately. If the Axis had the Do217 they would have a very, very fine heavy, but as it stands the Ju88 is an extremely effective bomber with great payload, dive bombing capability, decent speed and toughness and average defensive fire. The big advantage goes to the Lancaster and the B17s defensive positions/durability as it should.
The He111 is needed as well but it was slow (though it's crews said it was tough). Someone mentioned the Do17. That would be great to have after all else is modeled but it had an anemic loadout and pathetic defensive fire and you will only piss off the Axis side if it is modeled first.
Also, you can level an entire town in a G model 110. I don't think the Axis are that left out of it, but I would love to see new aircraft models.
Sakai
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Originally posted by bigred
I think, HTC has 2 real choices here...
In this case, the H8K Emily/ He-177 have real potential. They never saw much action (compared to say B-17s) but they fill a needed hole in the planesets and keep all us balanced in our WW2 sandbox.
The Emily was widely used for its type, its just that you can't build many planes of that type and size with reduced manufacturing capacity. But what were there, 110 H8Ks? I'd love ot see it but seeing formations of 3 day in and out would bore me to tears.
The 177 was not used effectively under any criteria that is applied to that war. They had one or two raids that went to the target and back, one in Russia where most of the 177s made it there, one in Britain where half burned on the ground or at liftoff/within a few miles of base and the other half haplessly divebombed, hit nada and ran home. That's two bombing missions--two, with maybe one a slight success. Oh yeah, model 20 variants, now.
The 177 was a piece of crap, it wold be an embarassment to have it all over the scene. The other issue is that historical or not, the Axis would not have that 177 but for a short period if a rolling planeset is used since the A5 started delivery in February of 1943 and it was it was yanked from the line long before the war ended; whereas the excellent Ju88, journeyman He111 and the Dornier 217 had much longer service records.
Do217 is only realistic choice. The Germas would NEVER have an even up loadout as the Lanc reigns supreme there anyway. Give them the D0217 and they have a match for the B17. Who could ask for more than that?
Sakai
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Good points Sakai,
What's been bothering me goes deeper than debating the merits of any particular airframe and whether it should be in or out of the planeset.
More fundamentally, I worry that if HTC mirrors history (and the strategic decisions made by Axis generals) they may inadvertantly mirror the results of the war as well (or at least weigh them in the Allies favor)
By example, if we only use "prevalent but historical" Axis buffs, the COLD HARD RESULTS will tend to be more eggs dropped per hour by the Allies than the Axis. Their historically prevalent buffs are tougher, thus more will make it through to targets, and they can carry heavier loads. More importantly, without the option to fly a sexy "heavy buff", the dedicated buffers simply wont show, or will go almost exclusivly Allies.
Sure, the Axis may have the better rides (arguable), but playing under strategicly defensive conditions day in and day out is grueling, not fun. Heck, if the 262 was not perked, but every Axis field was porked almost all the time, what side would you play on???
This concern is why i'm leaning towards a desire to see some "Axis Heavies" available, regardless of their real-world manufacturing rates, or historical impact.
Hence my concern about the delicate choices HTC needs to make. The concerns of "is it historical" went out the window with the addition of the 163/152... If TOD holds onto history too tightly, we may be destined to repeat it in our future arenas, where the true goal is fun, not victory.
-Bigred
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VERY good point bigred :)
what you said i was trying to get across in my other post above.
the wider the planeset the more varied fights you will get in the MA.
as for the upcoming AH TOD:
it would be alot nicer to have the real planes modeled to re-create a mission instead of the "substitues" they use in Squad Ops.
oh well another lame thought by yours truly
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Originally posted by JB73
VERY good point bigred :)
what you said i was trying to get across in my other post above.
the wider the planeset the more varied fights you will get in the MA.
as for the upcoming AH TOD:
it would be alot nicer to have the real planes modeled to re-create a mission instead of the "substitues" they use in Squad Ops.
oh well another lame thought by yours truly
Aye to both those posts and good dialogue gents, but you still would not need to model any plane beyond the Do217 in terms of capabilities. It will do anything the B17 will do in terms of loadout and capability (excepting extreme range) and as noted, there 1) is no 4 engine axis bomber so if sexy big plane looks is what you want as BigRed posits, they will all go Allied no matter what plane is modeled [an aside: the Do217 is a more masculine plane anyways, far better looking to my mind] and 2) the Ju88 is arguably the finest twin in the game and the vast majority of the rides taken out for buffs are twin engined planes.
I must say, If I want to devastate a place, I take a Ju88 over a B-17 any day of the week. The two loadouts can hit hard and carpet bomb both, in one run. It's an animal. You can damage a single field severely and then take out half a town.
Also, since the vast majority of guys like to fly fighters and engage in that type of warfare, I wouldn't worry too much. Also, also, if numbers are constrained such that no side gets so many it simply bludgeons the other, you'd hardly have anything to worry about: 10 guys in Buff formations are no match for ten hardened fighter pilots. Bomber swould suffer far, far greater losses under those conditions than they did in the war. And the way the allies won was overwhelming numbers of superbly trained pilots--a luxury they will not have in TOD.
Make no mistake, as a game this will be far closer to parity than the war ever was--if not even up. The Axis will have no screwed up central command to blame for any failures.
Turn your arguments around, the Allies could complain that no acceptable interceptors with multiple cannon were produced so intercepting massed Heavies of the germans would be historically and balance-wise inappropriate.
Model the Do217, and some Italian planes, and more early-war AC.
By the by, in the early war the Axis will likely dominate. Should we ask for a redseign of say the P-39 to its best specifications (two stage supercharger and the 20mm gun as an option for length of fire and compatibility of convergence of fire) so the Allies can compete more effectively in the early going? The original F4F specs make it an FM2 which is a devastatingly effective dogfighter and greatly changes the Pacific balance for early Zero attacks, should we roll it out earlier? Is it "unfair" for the lesser armed and defended B-17s with no real escort capacity to be made to go on bombing runs so we should model later G models and longer range fighters so as to make them capable of hitting their targets every time (Sakai wrote of annhiliating B-17 groups with their Zeros in the early war). How can we assuage the fears of Lancaster pilots who have to face cannon-equipped fighters with no escorts for the first year or more?
How far do we extend this logic, I reckon, is my concern. The Emily, as an example, if modeled should never be put into formations: it was a long range patrol bomber, primarily used as recon/bomber and was sent out in a group to bomb very rarely (once as I recollect?). So do we make formations of Emilys? Carpet bomb Beijing (then Peking) in formations of H8Ks???
I can't see it, especially if, as noted, there is parity in numbers. The numbers thing is what beat Japan so quickly, look what numbers did to Germany facing the Red Hammer and the English/US Anvil.
If I were Axis, and I fly Axis as much as Allied or more, I would be far more vocal about number parity than I would an He177. And again, since there will be no High Command to issue orders which define the ways in which a plane type can be used you will in fact have opportunities for long range raids that teh Germans never availed themselves of in the war. That is, Army doctrine will not dominate here: why insist that the war as fought will be refought here? It won't be, and if you have Do217s to hit back with, and use your Ju88s strategically instead of only tactically, you'll find that the ASllies have no great adcantage over you.
Sakai
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You guys should also keep in mind that the AH2 TOD arena is not supposed to be a free for all like the MA. In the MA you can up what you want, where you want, to wherever you want. In the AH2 TOD arena it's mission based. The missions are scripted by HTC. To worry that the planesets may be unbalanced is really pointless. What you need to worry about is whether or not the missions that will be opposing one another have equal chance of a positive outcome. The deciding factor should be communication and teamwork, not "they had better aircraft". All this discussion is good, but IMHO some if not all of this has already been hashed out by the HTC staff. We'll just have to wait and see what the released product brings us.
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Me 262 a2........... should be pretty easy to do
even in 44 versions of the He 111 were in use in the East.
Two gruppen of 177 ware "wasted" because they could not reach behind the Urals from safe bases in Prussia.......they were then used in low level raids in desperation to help stop the july offensive (bagration). They were unescorted and decimated.
No co herent long range bomber force was amassed by the LW after that.
Similarity between Halifax and Lanc is so close that the Halifax would be a luxury.......... it never enjoyed a unique roll and was not as reliable as the Lanc.
The B24 had several unique theatres and some unique rolls.
Stuff like the Condor would be neat if it had air to ground radar that picked up enemy fleets within a certain range and showed them on the map..........
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OT:JB may I ask who's that dancing in your avatar?
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there's no reset in tod; points awareded but no reset.
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Originally posted by Glasses
OT:JB may I ask who's that dancing in your avatar?
Ailzče :D
link HERE (http://www.moi-alizee.com)
the full size version:
(http://209.234.184.99/images/alizeeshake.gif)
another:
(http://209.234.184.99/images/alizee241.jpg)
:D
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I planed to talk about liking the challenge of flying Ju88s but JBs last post is just too distracting :eek:
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Originally posted by JB73
Ailzče :D
:D
Hmmmm . . .didn't Roman Polanski get banned from the USA for something like this?
Sakai
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JB,
I was going to ask you not to take the thread off topic... but then I suddenly lost interest.....
I think I know what snakecharmers look like to the snake ;)
-Bigred
PS... I still think that H8Ks available from ports/bases (as a single plane only) and He-177s with the remote controled rocket bomb loadout would peak interest in the Axis planeset. In deference to Sakai, if they throw in the Do-217, I wouldn't complain either.
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sry all ... i should remove those....
nawwwwwww :D
after all glasses DID ASK for it ;)
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Originally posted by bigred
JB,
PS... I still think that H8Ks available from ports/bases (as a single plane only) and He-177s with the remote controled rocket bomb loadout would peak interest in the Axis planeset. In deference to Sakai, if they throw in the Do-217, I wouldn't complain either.
As recall, the Do217 carried the same anti shipping missiles as did the He177. Think I have some photos of that somewhere. It was a terrific platform for the Germans and was even used as a heavy night fighter. Only thing it would not do is dive bomb.
I'd love to see the H8K or other "Empire" size flying boat as well as torpedo carrying floats like the PBY, Cant or He115 from ports. The Emily could be used for troops, respply, bombing, torpedo. What a great plane. Problem is in TOD, can't really release the Emily withhout a counter such as the Sunderland. Think we'll see two Empire boats? I'd love that, but doubt we'll see it.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
Hmmmm . . .didn't Roman Polanski get banned from the USA for something like this?
Sakai
nahhhh she's 19 :)