Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mickey1992 on September 05, 2003, 03:20:06 PM
-
Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to? Wouldn't the "the worst schools in America" be better off with the $10 Million instead?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96563,00.html
Friday , September 05, 2003
WASHINGTON — The House narrowly approved private-school vouchers for poor District of Columbia students Friday, recharging a debate that has implications beyond the nation's capital.
The $10 million House plan, approved 205-203, would mark the first time the federal government has put aside public money for students to get private schooling. The Senate will soon consider a similar voucher measure for the District's schools, and President Bush has championed the idea.
-
Originally posted by Mickey1992
Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to? Wouldn't the "the worst schools in America" be better off with the $10 Million instead?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96563,00.html
Friday , September 05, 2003
WASHINGTON — The House narrowly approved private-school vouchers for poor District of Columbia students Friday, recharging a debate that has implications beyond the nation's capital.
The $10 million House plan, approved 205-203, would mark the first time the federal government has put aside public money for students to get private schooling. The Senate will soon consider a similar voucher measure for the District's schools, and President Bush has championed the idea.
I think we've been tossin money at a broken system for far too long. A new approach will give opportunities to those serious about their childrens future as well as give notice to school boards across the country to get their act together.
Here locally in the press, teachers are bent out of shape about being tested themselves regarding their competency to teach specific subjects(it's that Bush guy who never does anything)
Public schools across the nation are sick....our children pay the price, not the administrators or the politicians.
BTW...don't feel badly about where your money goes....we homeschooled our four kids until last year, all the while paying the taxes which supported public schools.
-
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".
Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.
Well, guess what, it isn't.
it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.
It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.
Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.
-
Originally posted by Rude
[BTW...don't feel badly about where your money goes....we homeschooled our four kids until last year, all the while paying the taxes which supported public schools.
We're homeschooling ours still (that's 4 currently with another 3 yet to be schooled). At the average cost for our district of $6800 per pupil (not including the special referendums to pay for the ever growing schools) . Meanwhile our home education costs less than 2k per year total. So think of it this way, I'm saving our district taxpayers almost $25k per year and I still get to pay my taxes to keep the school running.
Did I mention that the school district is now asking for an additional $500 per year per student from the district tax payers. Seems like they needed an extra 5 specialists to help teach the teachers and oversee them. Every increase they've asked for to date has not added additional classroom teachers, its been
1. new principal(s) -- how many do you really need?
2. new administrative assistants for item #1
3. new facility staff
4. cost to cover running the actual facility
5. A/C updates to the schools
...
So anything that will curb the cost of school administration is welcomed. I don't mind paying for more in classroom teachers, but when I keep seeing more and more administration and no net new teachers, I am skeptical.
Vouchers: I like the idea if it helps reform public education system by bringing in good old fashioned competition. Take payers win, kids win because they are actually being taught, parents win because they can direct their child's education. The only loosers in this situation is the NEA and other large teacher lobbies because they have to now show competency.
-
Originally posted by Mickey1992
Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to?
That's kinda the whole point of the vouchers. To help those that can't afford private schools the possibility of a private school. Seems kinda obvious to me, something I'm missing?
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".
Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.
Well, guess what, it isn't.
it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.
It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.
Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.
I couldn't agree with you more FD...parents bear the responsibility for the upbringing of their children...at least that's how my wifey and I parent our four kids.
In the face of that being said, it's even more simplistic to think that more money will make things better.
Now FD...private schools do tend to produce better students....they hold students accountable, the curriculums are superior to that of public schools and the parents tend to be educated who send their children there. For those reasons, private school education has met with more success in the US.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".
Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.
Well, guess what, it isn't.
it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.
It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.
Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.
Exactly.
Rude, I commend you on caring enough about your kids' education to be very involved, but IMO your animosity towards teachers is misplaced and influenced by the reactionary right.
fd-ski speaks the truth. I was a teacher for 5 years in the public schools, and I know for a fact that every kid who wanted to learn and had caring parents, learned a ton.
Don't blame the teachers for the failings of a generation of disconnected parents. Parents expect teachers to somehow force their kids to learn by magic, without working at it at home, and without being respectful during school. That is nonsense.
As a highly skilled teacher in my profession, I welcome extensive testing of all teachers. Those who pass the tests should be recognized as being superior in their subject and paid on a par with other professions.
Rude, the "system" may be broken, but the teachers sure aren't.
-
yes Rude, but benefits you describe only occur in current situation with mostly public schools and very few, and very expensive private schools.
Let me give you a sceanrio here:
All private schools, all vouchers, so on so fourth.
First item of competition: PRICE. I know you will argue till you are blue in the face that quality of education will be a detemining factor, but fact remains that right mix of MARKETING and PRICING always wins. Want an example ? Fighter Ace vs AH - look at populations between the games. Same applies to all things which are marketed.
So say we have two schools: They both have same ammount of money.
One invests in training better teachers, other hires good PR agency and does a huge campaign. It hires worst teachers to cut costs and convinces everyone in town that "we are better then the other school". Net result is that next year, the school with better teachers has to do very much the same else it will go out of business. Price war proceeds, teacher salaries get slashed. Can you say videoconference lecuture over teh internet from outsourced indian teacher ? :)
There are some things that are so important and unmeasurable that they shouldn't be a subject to "free market" practices:
education and healthcare.
As it stands our school system has a potential to do great, but parents and silly laws are preventing that from happening.
Opening the system up to mega corporations and CEOs crunching "number of chalks/classroom vs profit" ratios isn't going to fix the very core of the system. As long as tax payers are paying for schools - parents won't care.
The only answer is to engage parents. And the only way i see at this point to make that happend: Charge them directly.
Leave public schools, and charge parents tuition based on their kid's grades. Better grade - lower tuition.
When mommy and daddy get slapped with 3000$ a year bill because Johnny is a fricking moron and nobody paid any attention to his schoolwork, maybe they will change their approach.
-
Damn Bart, I never realized how smart you were until you spoke on this subject.
-
I used to be a teacher at a high-risk public school. Our test scores and student performance were pathetic (8-35%ile depending on the grade and test). I now am a teacher at a Catholic private school. . Our test scores and student performance are fantastic (above 90%ile in all grades and subjects).
Most parents at my old school had jail experience, few were educated, many were on welfare, some were drug dealers or in gangs. The majority of them didn’t express much interest in their children’s education (600 kids, 4 parents on the PTA). Brothers and sisters in large “families” sometimes had no common fathers.
Every class had a bunch of special-ed kids.
At my new school parents are typically doctors, lawyers, computer techs, etc. Most are very well educated. The vast majority of them express much interest in their children’s education. Very few parents are not married. Most attend church.
Our school is not required to accept special-ed students.
Teachers at my old school were no less; educated, hard working or professional than the Catholic-school teachers who I work with now.
The red-tape and BS paperwork that I was required to do as a public school teacher was five fold what we do in my Catholic school. Politicians are largely responsible for this.
Many of the problem students in my old school would be quickly booted out of my new school, that’s a very convenient (and effective) way to handle “problems”. Public schools don’t have that luxury.
I think its funny how people compare public to private schools.
eskimo
-
The only loosers in this situation is the NEA and other large teacher lobbies because they have to now show competency.
Sad, yet another ignorant and misguided attack on teachers. Even from my own squadmate!
And you guys call yourselves christians?!
Look, I'll say it again, and I'll keep on saying it until you get it:
Most teachers in this country are highly educated and motivated. They are dedicated to their students, and are self-sacrificing to a fault. All they ask for in return is to be respected and paid a "fair and balanced" salary, commensurate with their skill.
Test all the teachers. Test them long and hard. Throw out the minority who fail the tests. The remaining professionals who have proven their abilities should be paid, and paid handsomely.
Those of you who have never taught in the public schools have no idea what teachers go up against on a daily basis.
I do. If you ask nice and offer to buy me a beer, I'd be glad to educate you.....that is, if you're willing to learn. :)
John Dahlen
B.S. Music Education
University of Minnesota
1989
-
By reading this thread, it seems to me you guys have this mind-set.
Public Schools: They all suck, students are stupid, teachers are terrible, and all parents are divorced.
Private Schools: Superb teaching, students are fantastic, teachers are brilliant, and parents are happily married.
Lol, I love the thing someone said about students in private schools are on average smarter. Well la de frickin' da. That's suprising seeing as how they have to pass a difficult test to enter it... :rolleyes:
But of course, there are some exceptions in public schools. One major one being that not all of them are smack-dab in the middle of cities, as some of you believe. And some teachers are absolutely exceptional, like one of my elementary teachers, and one of my ninth-grade teachers.
My $0.02
-
Originally posted by banana
Most teachers in this country are highly educated and motivated. They are dedicated to their students, and are self-sacrificing to a fault.
That certainly wasn't my experience through 12 years of public school. I have a sister and a brother-in-law that are both teachers and would disagree with you too.
I might agree if you said many but not most.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
That certainly wasn't my experience through 12 years of public school. I have a sister and a brother-in-law that are both teachers and would disagree with you too.
I might agree if you said many but not most.
Then it's your state's problem. Minnesota is one of the best states in the nation to get a solid public school education in.
Minnesotan's as a whole value education as a top priority, and hence we pay more in taxes to get that education. If the people in your state don't have their priorities in order, that's their business.
AKIron, not talking about you or your situation, but in general, I've heard that argument before. "The teacher didn't like me" or "It's the teacher's fault I didn't get an A".
Bull.
There is something called personal accountability, something which is sadly lacking in today's society. Ask any Rebulican, they'll agree with me. But when it comes to education, they conveniently forget this, and instead play the blame game against teachers.
-
You want to see pathetic public schools? Spend a few years in Hawaii. My kids are not stupid by any means, but they were both struggling in the schools there. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to send them to a private school. When we moved to Oklahoma my daughter's grades went from C's and D's to A's and B's the very next semester. The following semester she made the Honor Roll and has stayed there. Not all public school systems are horrible, but the one's that are should be held accountable. I agree that parents are a very key ingredient to a child's success in school, but it still boils down to having a decent school system to make it all work.
-
It's not just my state banana. My sister teaches here now but taught in Georgia for several years. I also have a sister-in-law that has taught both here and in California. She got fed up and home schools her son now. My brother-in-law got fed up and teaches in private school now.
Minnesota may be the exception.
-
banana, I went to 12 schools in 12 years. I did as little as possible and barely squeaked by. I can't remember a teacher that didn't seem to be bored with their job, well, except maybe a few of the young ones.
Fortunately for me I liked College.
We don't need no education. We don't need no mind control. ;)
-
banana ... group hug ? :D
now if i only wasn't so fricking stubborn :)
Oh.. and having attended school in connecticut, they are pretty good, teachers and education.
Having attended Community College in Florida for few months...3 words for you.. "OH MY GOD"
As a math tutor i had to explain to a lady what a NEGATIVE NUMBER is. This is in COLLEGE. She wrote down 5-8 = and asked me to explain that. What a world...
-
I did as little as possible and barely squeaked by.
I rest my case.
-
while alot of parents are pretty damn lazy about teaching there kids or even asking about homework, I think there is a much bigger problem.
not only do my kids go to school about 20 days less (and about 1 half day per week), there is about 10 times the amount of BS that has nothing to do with education.
and after all that crap is done they use the rest of the time trying to get a handle on the kids kids who have no intention of learning and don't care what anybody says about it.
you'd hear all kinds of crap about how somehow it's racist, but what we need is a teired class set-up. so a kid goes into the regular class and if they learn fine, if they want to cause trouble you can drop them into a class with kids who aren't so serious about there work. if they still don't get it put them in a class with the disceplin problems and if they can't get under countrole after that show them the door for the year.
this way kids who come prepared to learn aren't held back by screw-offs.
another problem is the idea that you constantly have to be worried about everyones self-esteem. "move them on even though they didn't do the work, wouldn't want them to feel bad about themselves". what a load of crap, when I was in school it was one of the teachers main jobs to locate the morons and let you know if you where one of em. you may have felt bad when they jumped all over you but you didn't go home thinking things where fine and knowing nothing about the work.
watching my kids go through for the last 12 years I see a trend also where most of your grade (well over 70%) is based on effort. great the kid tries reall hard, thats great but if he can't add he shouldn't pass math.
there would be so much oposition to doing anything real to fix schools it's hopeless. you can't change anything without offending someone, and you won't find a more PC group than those running the schools.
vouchers are the only solution I can see that would work. and I don't see anything wrong or unfair with them either.
so if I send my kid to be educated by someone I feel can do a better job why shouldn't his share of the educational funding go with him.
all it takes as a more realistic way of looking at things. as it is we see the scool funding available in a district to be the right of the district to spend. we ought to look at as the money raised for education in a particular distric belongs not to the district but to the students. they're the ones who are owed an education, and if someone else can do the job better let them.
I don't see how this adversly effects the districts or kids who choose to stay. sure they loose the money for that kids share but they also get out of the responsability educate that kid.
how do they loose? you still have the same $$ per kid to spend get too it, run things as always, just give me the option to take my kid and his share of my tax dollars and opt out.
-
Your case is flawed. I didn't start out disinterested. I think teachers must take some responsibility for keeping young captive audiences interested, don't you?
-
No amount of publicity can disguise graduation rates and higher education matriculation rates.
Why, in the ideal Great Society, deny someone the education that someone else has simply because of money? How republican of you all.
Personally, I'd love to see Exeter, St Paul's and Andover full of inner city voucher holders, but the elitists would never let it go that far.
-
My children used to attend a public school that was so successful almost every other school and district in California sent teachers there to learn how it should be done.
No, it wasn't a rich school, but it was a small one. Point is, public doesn't equal crappy.
-
I know I am young here im 24
but I think there are some big problems in public schools.
I live in michigan. Anyone in this state has heard how much oakland school systems has screwed the people. they spend tons on the admin side that is a compleate waste. giving money to family to do projects.
what happened to the times where goverment and schools got hand me downs. here it seams that they spend big money on everything. they spent millions on a adminastrative building. here.
I think the biggest problem with public schools is accountabilty
Maybe my school was different but I have seen a lot of bad teaches.
I had a teacher that showed us how to use a bayonet in class (was using the flag) is was senile. I convinced him that he lost all my homework and he gave me an A.
I saw a teacher that pushed a child into a closet because he was not paying attention in class (scared the child half to death).
I had a teacher that went around telling my teachers my confidential IQ test.
I have a lot of bad examples. of teachers out of control
teachers and the rest of the school system needs to be accountable.
byw i had a lot of good teacher too. there are a lot of teachers that are very good at their jobs
teachers that did care about the students
but once a bad teacher is there they are there for life.
btw i was not a great student i will let everyone know that up front so they can attack me on that right away.
btw any teachers want to tell me how much the average salary of a teacher is.
and i dont mean starting teacher. someone with 5-10 year exp
-
banana:
I am not against the teacher and if my post came off that way, I apologize. My older brother is has a BS Music Teaching and is in northern MN teaching (he also taught in the LeRoy district for 4 yrs). What I was carefully trying to drive home is the political wing of NEA is doing much to keep the administrative side of the public school system alive. When they fight for equality in pay for teachers in the classroom and for more reasonable class size limits I'm all for them. When the fight against homeschooling I protest loudly. When the NEA fights against teacher accountability by testing, I protest loudly.
I'm sure each of us can point to "good" teachers and the teachers who were there to get a pay check and/or because they needed to teach a class or two to be a sports coach and they were hoping their coaching was going to take them to that next level. In a private school, those teachers who want to make a difference and are characterized by that self sacrifice rise to the top. The ones who are there for other reasons that to invest in the next generation are "weeded out".
I am thankful for my public education, but for personal faith reasons and for my disagreeing with how the school districts handle moral teaching (as mandated by our Federal and State Government) I choose to not use the public education system. It is my belief that my wife and I have the primary responsibility to "train up a child". As such we homeschool and will continue to homeschool. We not only take this approach for academia, but also for our Christian teaching as well. We attend corporate worhsip services and partake of the teaching/growth opportunities through the church, but we hold Duet 6:1-10 as a command that we cannot disregard.
Duet. 6:1-9
1 "Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you--"a land flowing with milk and honey.'[1]
4"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one![2] 5You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6"And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I think teachers must take some responsibility for keeping young captive audiences interested, don't you?
No. You're getting FREE education, MANDATED BY LAW. This is a blessing, for which many children all over the world would be quite greateful.
Each day student walks into the high school he should remember this, and if nessesary reminded of this.
Teacher's job is to put forth the material. if he can do it well, and keep the captive audience, great. However, nobody ever said that teacher's should also be entertainers.
It's kid's job to pay attention. Not the other way around.
Once again, if you are under impression that with vouchers you will send your kid to fancy private school, you are living in a dream world.
Schools will remain the same. Funding will remain relatively same with exception of budget for advatising and marketing going though the roof.
Those fancy schools you see today where the rich kids go - they will raise tuition by exact ammount that vouchers will cover. If it's 10000$ / year now and you get a voucher for 5000$, well guess what, tuition next year will be 15000$. Rich folks will get vouchers too :)
You will change the system where emphasis is on eductions into system where emphasis is on PROFIT. Your child will not longer be a pupit. It will be an account recievable.
-
Originally posted by banana
"Most teachers in this country are highly educated and motivated. They are dedicated to their students, and are self-sacrificing to a fault. "
Originally posted by AKIron
That certainly wasn't my experience through 12 years of public school. I have a sister and a brother-in-law that are both teachers and would disagree with you too.
I might agree if you said many but not most.
"Motivated" is matter of opinion, for the most part.
What would you consider "highly educated"?
eskimo
-
You really think any of the people paying $10k/year tuition are in a school district that would qualify for vouchers?
Have all of those schools as they are now already turned their pupils into account recievables, or would it only happen once poor kids were allowed to attend? If it would be nothing but advertising through the roof pushing a sham why is that not the case presently? There's a lot more to be made through the private sector anyway.
Again, it is because no amount of advertising can fake results.
Is it only the money thing, would you feel better if they were required to admit a certain percentage of vouchers as tuition free?
-
If a kid and his parents desire it, an excellent education can be had at any school, or even without a school. I educate my children at home, in addition to the moderate education they receive at school. It is NOT my children's responsibility, before high school, to learn, it is MINE as their parent to make sure they do.
In high school, the student is responsible for and to themselves to become educated. If the parents did it right in the first 8 years, the specific school attended is meaningless.
If you disagree with my opinion, you are too lazy to accept your responsability as a parent, and simply wish to shift the blame to someone else.
-
Well....
It's not so much the public schools are bad or worse then private schools IMHO.
It's the NEA, and my understanding of their agenda, that gets me goin.
I'm seeing far too many of our young people coming out of the public schools that have never read the preamble to the Bill of Rights! And far too many don't even know what the Bill of Rights contains, and worse don't seem to care. The failure to understand that the key to freedom is the self-governing individuals that Adams (I think it was Adams) refereed to seems rampant.
It seems, IMHO, that the NEA is in some ways very happy with the gradual constitutional dumbing down of our young people.
As in Ancient Rome it's starting to look like far too may are satisfied with Circus's and Bread.
And Gadfly... no offense intended! however, IMHO the ending of your post doesn't SEEM to fit into all situations that exist, and it also SEEMS highly judgmental, and MAYBE even a bit arrogant to make such a claim against any that disagrees with one, unless one is FULLY aware of the individuals situation that one is referring to.
Single parents aren't always able to give their children the time they need. In some cases 2 parent families in some areas have just as much difficulty. Some parents, possibly due to a poor education, or poor health, or limited jobs/income available in their area, have to work/struggle very hard just to survive and put food on the table!
But hey, what is in this particular post is only my opinion and doesn't really affect much of anything :)
-
The NEA is the worst thing to happen to education in the US, I will agree.
My whole life, I wanted to be a teacher. It was my declared major my freshman year. My first class, education 101, dealt exclusively with how to deal with, and operate under, the NEA. I dropped the class after 2 months, and changed my major the next semester.
-
Over the last couple of years I've ended up doing a lot of work for a few private schools. No lie - the marketing dept.'s in these schools were everything. It'd be impossible to explain just how much importance they were given... and how the success/failure of the school was seen to be intrinsically linked to the marketing. Everything else, easily including the quality of the education/facilities, took such a back seat as to not even be riding in the same car.
These were post-secondary schools, so it might be different for schools grades 1-12.
-
Why would you assume those situations do not apply to me?
There is nothing, NOTHING more important than your children. You do not have to embrace that, but in that case you have no right to insist that someone else assume YOUR responsability to do so.
-
No, it wasn't a rich school, but it was a small one. Point is, public doesn't equal crappy.
no it doesn't always mean crappy.
but sometimes it does, and when it does, whats wrong with the option to put your child, and the dollars alocated to teach him, in the hands of someone you feel can do a better job with it?
-
Originally posted by fd ski
No. You're getting FREE education, MANDATED BY LAW. This is a blessing, for which many children all over the world would be quite greateful.
My education wasn't FREE. My parents paid for it with their taxes just as I paid for my kid's with my taxes. No way to know, but I suspect that if vouchers had been available when I was in school a private school might have made a difference for me. Just as I believe it might for millions of kids today.
I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes here, I know there are many good teachers, but our public education system is in need of serious overhaul.
-
Originally posted by Gadfly
Why would you assume those situations do not apply to me?
There is nothing, NOTHING more important than your children. You do not have to embrace that, but in that case you have no right to insist that someone else assume YOUR responsability to do so.
With respect ...
Please reread my post.
Your pardon, but I see no assumption made. I do see the words SEEMS, SEEM, MAYBE, and FULLY used. Although all the situations that are possible applying to any one person is.... whoa! that person would definitely have MY SYMPATHY!!!
As to responsibilities... yes the children must be fed, clothed, housed, protected, as well as educated.
Further ... I put forward the fact, that where our children are concerned, these paid educators are given, by us, a position of TRUST! And therefore a PORTION of that responsibility. That so many are beginning to feel the NEA is betraying that trust says something.
FURTHER ... the law requires, and I agree to an extent with that law, that our children must be educated. However!!!!! If one is unable for any reason to see to that education, (and lately the state seems to be trying to prevent home schooling, or to force the home schoolers to teach using only the state approved/mandated teachings,) then the children MUST be sent to public school.
I further submit that by creating laws such as the above, the state (aka the people, or maybe it should apply to just the politicians? ) takes on a portion of that responsibility.
I do hope that all are able to see that for some, in the past, the present, and the future, reliance on the "educators" is almost a must. If for no other reason then due to the parent being poorly educated and unable to give assistance to their child when it is needed. Further reasons could be temporary injuries requiring a great deal of therapy, or disabled and in constant pain that requires drugs I could go on and on and on but .....
I agree that the final responsibility of the child's education is the parent or parents. However I submit that the state is gradually taking that responsibility/right away from parents through the laws that are being created and the educational organizations/systems being used. And in some instances even punishing the parents that object. This seems to be occurring against many peoples wishes.
I also recognize passion.
I think what I'm trying to say is...
Hmmm ... well from where I sit it seems to me ... that informing someone, anyone, that if they disagree with a persons opinion/view point, (and that includes my own opinions, and yes even the ones i'm passionate about!) then there IS OR MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM seems a bit too much like .....
It seems that it matters not if I wish to accept that responsibility refereed to above. What does matter is The State may very well be taking that right/responsibility away from you and I and everyone else. And The State seems to be using the opinion/argument that you must agree with The State or there is something wrong with you!
Which brings out the question of what freedom and what liberty?
Or even the question what rights?
err ahh hmmm oops ... didn't mean to get so wordy :)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
My education wasn't FREE. My parents paid for it with their taxes just as I paid for my kid's with my taxes. No way to know, but I suspect that if vouchers had been available when I was in school a private school might have made a difference for me. Just as I believe it might for millions of kids today.
I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes here, I know there are many good teachers, but our public education system is in need of serious overhaul.
It was free. Nobody send you a bill saying "pay this much for school". yes it came out of your parents taxes, but so it did from everyone elses, hence EVERYONE paid for your education.
Private school would have made a difference ? How is that exacly ? Would it be because they are more strict ? Or because your parents would have made sure you were working your bellybutton off since they were paying for it ?
And as stated before, what makes you think that private school will accept you ? The voucher in your hand ? They are designed to be elitist and will maintain that status by raising the tuition accordingly. Wanna bet on that ?
If vouchers become reality you will see new schools pop up around the place aimed at getting voucher students away from public schools, and they will. They superiority will be based on marketing rather then actual results, and they won't change a darn thing if the kid doesn't want to learn.
But at least kid will be able to pound his chest and say "i went to a private school"....
So AkIron, do you feel you were a failure in school and it was your teacher's fault ?
Here, i'll start. I was a failure in high school and it was my own fault cause i was too interested in basketball and p___y.
Fatty - why shouldn't rich people get vouchers ?
Correct me if i'm wrong by vouchers are meant to be a tool for choice, rather then social equality. Hence all parents with school age kids get a voucher for whatever state spends on their education and can give it to any accredited school, right ?
If so, i don't see why Bill Gates shouldn't get a voucher. He pays taxes like rest of us.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
It was free. Nobody send you a bill saying "pay this much for school". yes it came out of your parents taxes, but so it did from everyone elses, hence EVERYONE paid for your education.
Of course school was not free. We did not have the option to not pay for it. And in each school system the people there have some choice what the money is being used on.
Btw i do think teachers need to do more than just give homework.
If that is all they need to do we might as well save money and do video learning from people in india.
save us the money we spend on teachers that think they are god
-
ForHim: I understand why you're home schooling, but why then attack the public schools? The Public schools are not faith based, nor should they be. That's why we have private religious schools. Those parents who don't want to send their children to public schools are welcome to pony up the cash and send them to their favorite private religious school of their choice, or home school them.
The federal government should not be in the business of paying for religious education.
http://www.nea.org/index.html
Thought I'd paste the NEA's link here so everyone can read it's mission statements and views on a wide range of hot educational topic. I've just read through them, and it sounds very reasonable to me. Somebody mentioned that they are anti-teacher accountability. I see nothing like that at all in their statements. In fact, I see this:
Accountability in education is not one thing. There must be systems in place for setting standards and assessments for what students should know and be able to do. There must be systems to prepare, hire, retain and continually improve the knowledge and skills of teachers and other education employees. There must be systems for parents and taxpayers to know that their money is being spent appropriately -- and that their expectations for student achievement are in line with the investments states and communities make.
Teachers welcome high standards and strong accountability systems -- as long as they are a shared responsibility of others in the school and community, including administrators, elected officials and parents
Doesn't sound like the ravings of some anti-accountability whacko union that some of you claim the NEA is.
-
I guess we'll just have to disagree on the definition of "free" fd ski. My taxes seem like real money to me.
Like I said, I did very little in school and yet got through. I should be completely honest. I did quite well the first 4 years. After that I lost interest. Never or very rarely did any home work and day dreamed most of the time in class. I really shouldn't have passed many of the subjects I did but no one seemed to care and the system apparently didn't want the expense of keeping me longer.
So, did I waste 8 or so years? Pretty much. Was it my fault? Yes, never said it wasn't. Were my parents remiss in their responsibility? Again, yes. Were there teachers to blame? I think so. Was the system lacking? Most definitely. Could a more strict school that was able to focus more attention on my needs and problems have turned me around? Maybe, I'll never know for sure but the results I've observed in others would seem to say yes.
I think we can and should learn from our mistakes. Pushing kids through school with little learning happening is a mistake. If the public school system can't change this then our tax money should be spent elsewhere.
-
public schools are broken. no sense throwing more money at em... it's too late and it never worked in any case. most "families" are not lazy when it comes to their kids... most are either single parent trying to work and take care of the household and do as much as they can for thier kids or... both parents work to make ends meet.
private schools don't put the teaching responsibility on the parents... they have this unique way of looking at it... they feel it is their job to teach academics and the parents job to teach life skills... this is the complete oppossite of what the public school system has decided.... the public school is finding that being a parent is allmost impossibel but.... bless their little union liberal hearts.... they keep trying.
time to offer some real alternatives.
DC is mostly poor black with poor academic records but mostly dempocrat liberal and pro public everything.... they wouldn't have gone to the extreme right wing position of vouchers if they had even a glimmer of faith left in the public school system.
public schools are the worst of socialism done in the worst possible way to the people who are most vulnerable.
lazs
-
Private school would have made a difference ? How is that exacly ?
one huge advantage most private schools have is that if a kid is a discipline problem, and after other options have failed, they always have the option of telling the parents to find another school.
all it takes is 1 or 2 idiots to stop 30 kids from learning anything.
teachers seem to be overly obsessed with the idea that every kid needs to be a highschool graduate. it would be great if they where but some are either just not mentally equiped to handle HS level subjects, or just not interested in doing the work.
they focus so much attention and resources an the kids that are "falling through the cracks" (man, I'm sick of hearing that phrase), that kids that are there and ready to learn get ignored.
it should be hard to get your diploma, you should have to know the material, when they give them to everyone then nobodys has any value.
-
Any of you guys know what an I.E.P. is?
That should sort the "knows" from the "don't knows".
-
private schools don't put the teaching responsibility on the parents... they have this unique way of looking at it... they feel it is their job to teach academics and the parents job to teach life skills... this is the complete oppossite of what the public school system has decided.... the public school is finding that being a parent is allmost impossibel but.... bless their little union liberal hearts.... they keep trying.
Lazs, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think that any teachers out there would rather be paid parents during the school day instead of educators, you're out of touch with reality. All the other crap teachers have to do is mandated by the state of the federal government.
Ask any teacher. They'll tell you that all they want to do is teach their subject to attentive kids who want to learn, and work with their students' parents who care about what happens in the school each day.
You don't consider reading or writing a life skill?
I will grant you that not every part of the public school system is perfect. But instead of trying to work with the schools to solve the problem, the self-righteous right wants to throw out the baby with the bath water, and turn our schools into psuedo-religious institutions.
Kieran:
I.E.P. = Individual Education Plan
-
acutaly I'd just like to take my baby out of the poluted bath water until they clean it up
-
No fair banana, you're from the inside. ;)
Now let's see if anyone (besides Eskimo or banana) knows what effect an I.E.P. has on what a teacher can/cannot do.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
No fair banana, you're from the inside. ;)
Now let's see if anyone (besides Eskimo or banana) knows what effect an I.E.P. has on what a teacher can/cannot do.
Man, that brings back bad memories. I've forgotten all about those things, not much of an issue now.
We also had ILPs. I had 21 of 23 kids on ILPs my last year of teaching public school. They're just great if you enjoy documenting everything that you do , for each student, while doing you're trying to teach and manage a class. I think some "really smart" lawyer came up with that idea too.
eskimo
-
Things that I think hurt US education in no particular order:
New age learing initatives instead of hard subjects and tests.
Lack of control including punishment.
Annonymity.
Uncaring uneducated parents - as opposed to caring but uneducated parents.
"Poor Culture" Basically: You dont need no scholling, go get a job. I come from a small fishing village in Croatia and they are good people but their homes dont have many books - ill leave it at that. This is gonna be controversial but Ill include in this "US black culture" Look at how the Jesse Jackson types critizize TV sitcoms for having middle class educated blacks - this may or may not reflect on reality but it ceratinly does reflect on and establish expectations and aspirations.
Teachers unions - the concern of teachers unions, like all unions, is to get highrer salaries and more job security to their members regardless of other factors. banana pretty much addmited that. I hate to see TV ads saying that teachers unions support some education initiative and that somehow that means its better for kids.
Inconsistent cirruculum. There should be a basic natioal curriculum stressing math, reading writting and history. In English! Some states have very backward standards IRRC.
Schools are not ambitius enough and dont challenge kids. A few years ago Pres Clinton was announcing some great program which would make it a goal that most kids could read by the 3rd
grade. My thought, what the hell are they doing with them for the first two years?
Stop this idiocy about teaching creationism in schools.
Bilingual programs.
i was a terrible student but I learned english ion 6 months. My languange is no closer to english than is spanish. I had to learn because I had to. Remove that pressure and kids like all humansd will stick with the comfortable and familiar especiallly if that is encoraged. They never learn english well and so cut themselves of from college and wider carrer opportunites.
Flame away....
-
Bilingual programs.
son-of-a-b...., me and Grun agree on something.
I'll even go one further, we need to declare english as our official language.
we should provide free english training to all imigrants but it should not be the responsability of the public school system, let the department of imigration pay for it. if they can't afford to teach any more people, don't let any more in until you can afford to teach them.
it's not just the cost to schools. the relivant part of my electric bill is 1 page, yet I get a 6 page letter every month (the rest made up of about a dozen other languages). why is it our (gov't)responsability to comunicate with people who moved (or in many cases lived here for generations) to a country without planning for how to comunicate with others? hell we recent had a gov't agency take out an add in the 'help wanted' section for a translater who spoke klingon.
you ever go to a gov't office with a long wait? (dmv for example) most people have a very huge wait. then someone who doesn't speak english comes in, talks to the receptionist who takes them asside, finds the translator and imediatly starts to work for them. 2 hour wait for everyone else and 20 min door to door for them.
I even heard from a Korean man I worked with that when he first came to the US he took the writen part of the driving test orally with a translator writing it down for him, he said he missed several but she helped him by writing down the correct answers instead of the ones he gave. (that might explain another thing or two, but thats another subject and completely unPC, so I'll just apologise for that thought now.)
I have nothing against people keeping their native languages, I strongly suport teaching them to your kids (I guess that would make them herritage languages?), and wish my family had kept them alive.
but we would be much more efficient if we all did bussiness in english. and if you refuse to learn the language the responsability for a translator should be yours.
-
What in the hell? I agree with Apathy AND Grun? This is wrong, this is just incredibly wrong! Nothing good can come of this.
SOB
-
Final question: Who's responsible for bringing about I.E.P.'s?
P.S. Grun- Your stuff sounds great, but is largely based in error.
-
as my youngest is now a senior in high school ...
I do not believe any of our taxes should support the failing public school system :)
Let us keep the tax money and those with children can then spend the money better on schools with smaller class sizes, better teachers and educational equipment - the rest of us can save it :)
-
Oh... I don't say that the teachers... some of em... want to teach their administrations version of life skills more than they want to teach academics.... I am pragmatic... I don't care what the intent is... only the result.
with 67% adminestration the teachers are pretty powerless in any case... banana and kieran... do you feel you are in control of what you teach or don't teach?
You want to fix public schools? NOW you want to fix em? where were you when they were incramentaly slautered over the last couple of decades? You all thought it was a good idea to start "programs" that had nothing to do with academics then.... well guess what? this is a bureocracy.... you can't turn this baby on a dime... it's toooooo friggin late. You blew it and yu can't act repentant now and say... Oh... give us another chance... just give us a couple of decades and we will get up to... to what? the level proivate schools are at now?
Why bother to save this loser? Oh... because private schools might throw out "problem" children? big friggin deal... throw em out... they destroy learning for dozens of kids around em.... let em go to another institution... believe me, there will be someone to take em. but.... I believe that you will have less dropouts overall with private schools.... I believe that ublic schools have reached the saturation point on dropouts..... they can't do anything any worse thatn they do now and get more dropouts.... they have acchieved 100% success in getting the most kids possible to drop out.
Most of u teachers just don't want to work 10 or more months a year like the peasants.
lazs
-
I blame Mathman
-
Ok Lazs, sceanrio.
I'm a troule kid who got kicked out from every school within 50 miles radius of my house. I'm in 6th grade.
none of those schools will take me, ( they are all private ) hence i cannot get an education.
Question is a math question:
What procentage will the lawyer take to sue the pents off the school board in my city ? :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that there should be a method to "remove" distractive kids.
Unfortunatelly forcing them on "other" schools isn't the answer.
In poland we have something called "poprawczak" which stands for "corrector". it's a place that every teenager dreads. it's more or less a prison/school. You get send there - you're in the world of **** :D
Who knows.. maybe it would work ?
-
Ski, the problem is in your wording. You said, "I can't get an education". That is incorrect, the education is there, you and your parents do not WANT it. Therefore, why should anyone else concern themselves with you? Hypothetically, of course.
-
I'm in 6th grade.
none of those schools will take me, ( they are all private ) hence i cannot get an education.
no you still get an education, they take you to that last school where you get a shovel and learn how to dig ditches.
it'd be a hard life for a child, but if you insist on being dumb you better start on being tough early on.
when my son's grades began to fall to an unacceptable level (2nd semester junior year), I got the letter from the school about his grades.
I picked him up from school that day and informed him of a few changes coming up that he could thank his own efforts for.
for starters his 17th birthday pressent was 1 credit of summer school.
second I told him (ok, this was a hollow threat, he only did it once for about 5 minutes, but it got his attention) we where going to start our own little vo-tech thing for 4 hours a week, for as long as he lived in my house. if he couldn't keep up academicly he would have to imediatly begin training in a feild more sutable for someone with his prospects.
as I finished up this little speach we where pulling off the freeway at our exit. I stopped at the light and said "your first lesson starts now, see you in 4 hours", reached across him and popped open the door and said "get out", he gets out but looks confused until I hand him the cardboard sign saying 'will work for Food, please help', "Don't forget your tools", and off I go.
he shows up at home about 20 minutes later saying he couldn't do it. but in that time he also had formulated a plan to get all his grades up where they belong, and he stuck with it and graduated on time.
it needs to be clear to kids what the consequences are for lack of performance.
some kids come to school to learn and some just put in there time (or worse). the thing is with this whole happy, happy, feel good, no child left behind, BS we got now all those kids will eventually graduate. the ones who do the work and know the material get the same diploma the screw offs get.
why shouldn't a kid who works hard have the right to an education free from distractions who are wasting everyones time and money. and if they keep behavior and performance up to the level of the top-teir class(or school) give them a diploma that reflects that.
and if they stick it out and graduate, but from the last one that would take them, and all they learned was which end of a shovle to hold and where to sign your paycheck, let their diploma reflect that.
-
Guys, you aren't getting any points for ignoring the question. Let me help you out... parent advocates brought us I.E.P.'s. Those plans tie our hands behind our backs in many ways. We are bound by law to do as we are instructed- what we want or don't want makes absolutely no difference. That, my friends, is only the tip of the iceberg.
Let me jump ahead then... if parent advocates forced an unendurable situation for public schools, what makes anyone think for a single second it will be any different in a private school growing more and more dependent on voucher (therefore federal) money? Once the private schools are dependent on the money, they are the new public schools. Yes, it really is that simple.
You're right Lazs, it is the bureaucracy that causes the problem. What you don't realize is YOU (the public) ARE the bureaucracy. As long as people can and will litigate conflicting agendas, no school accepting federal moneys will avoid the current plight of public schools.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
But...but...it's football season!!!
Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.
Dissemination and the fostering of comprehension. Teaching a child how to study and learn. Sometimes you gotta teach them the most basic concepts to learning. Otherwise it becomes a "either you can or you can't" type argument, and one that would have regarded Einstein as mentally retarded.
It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.
I agree, with the exception of understanding the material. If a parent doesn't understand, he certainly isn't going to be able to explain it to his/her kid. Now, if the parent can see the child doesn't grasp, and is struggling, then they can certainly seek help, however, that does require them to forego their pride. Something I notice is difficult for adults. Even, if not especially, many I see here.
-
Guys, you aren't getting any points for ignoring the question. Let me help you out... parent advocates brought us I.E.P.'s. Those plans tie our hands behind our backs in many ways.
pointing out one of the reasons why public schools are FUBAR doesn't really change anything. we all know that they are and there are many reaons why.
if you fund the private schools through vouchers controled by the parent, instead of direct gov't funding there is no reason why they would be this screwed.
if nothing else we would have a clean start at a new set-up. maybe we could get 100 years out of that before the gov't finds a way to ruin it.
-
Originally posted by banana
Test all the teachers. Test them long and hard. Throw out the minority who fail the tests. The remaining professionals who have proven their abilities should be paid, and paid handsomely.
Those of you who have never taught in the public schools have no idea what teachers go up against on a daily basis.
I do. If you ask nice and offer to buy me a beer, I'd be glad to educate you.....that is, if you're willing to learn. :)
Teaching has long been regarded a noble profession and that is perhaps the result of level of dedication and desire to see the young become prominent citizens. I do not wish to teach, though I do like to help, but I may likely go in the direction for a time. The biggest fear is the stories I hear of disruptive and violent students and the parents that defend them vehemently.
Mac out
BTW, I love your avatar. What is his name again?
-
Kieran how is IEP for a small number of disbled kids ruining scholling fore everyone else?
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
pointing out one of the reasons why public schools are FUBAR doesn't really change anything. we all know that they are and there are many reaons why.
if you fund the private schools through vouchers controled by the parent, instead of direct gov't funding there is no reason why they would be this screwed.
if nothing else we would have a clean start at a new set-up. maybe we could get 100 years out of that before the gov't finds a way to ruin it.
I submit you don't really understand at all, at least not to the degree you think you do.
Vouchers are federal or state moneys. He that has the purse strings has the power. Sure, the parent can decide where to spend their voucher; the state can mandate to any institution which receives their moneys (however it gets there) how things can/cannot be run. Simple as that.
I.E.P.'s are only one example, and not intended to be the sole reason for public school woes. I would hope it would be evident enough the force behind I.E.P.'s will be the force moving to private schools. Don't doubt for a second they will continue to flex their collective muscle. You may not be aware, but equal education is required by the 14th amendment for any school receiving federal or state money. These schools will no longer be able to just kick out problem students for fear of being sued and having moneys withheld.
FWIW, any person that includes in their description of schools comments like "seems like all teachers want to do is..." or "teachers should just..." have absolutely no idea what the job is about. None. Zero. We work for YOU, all of YOU, and if you collectively could agree on what you want, you could get it (probably). You can't/won't, therefore it won't matter one bit where you go to school. You'll be talking the same crap about private schools in 10 years time.
Heck, if you'd just read the myriad comments in this thread alone you can see this small group can't decide anything definitive about anything, particularly what kids should be learning. Yet... you're telling us how it should be done. No, wait, you're telling us we should do the right thing. No, wait, you're saying we should kick kids out who cause trouble. No, wait, you're saying it is OUR job to make kids interested in staying in school. Ad infinitum.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Kieran how is IEP for a small number of disbled kids ruining scholling fore everyone else?
Every kid with an IEP requires a big chunk of your class time. Teachers are legally bound to spend a great deal of their student contact time with these kids. A lot of their planning time can be eaten up with paper work and meetings for these students. Get a few IEP students in your class and the rest of your students can be legally screwed out of having a reasonable amount of your time for them to be taught properly.
IEPs are just one example of how public schools have been handed a no win situation.
The problem with the public school system is that all of the well-meaning laws and mandates that have been forced upon them are all based of theories and without considering how practical they may be.
There’s a problem with public schools, we had better tell them how to do things…
Hmm, it’s getting worse. Looks like we had better force them to do things how we see fit again.
Gee, it’s getting worse…
Wonder why?
Let’s just hand the reigns over to private schools, they do a good job.
Of course they’ll have to take the special-ed kids, and we certainly can’t let them expel kids for any reason, better not let them hold kids back either, and documentation, we’ll make sure they document everything, just like we made the public schools document everything.
(next year)
WTF went wrong with private schools? Looks like we had better force them to do things how we see fit again.
eskimo
-
I agree with Gadfly and Capt. Apathy RE learning.
I was once selected to teach a course and found I had NO desire whatsoever to try to teach anyone that didn't want to learn!
I quit within 1 day.
I.E.P. , to me anyway, is only a symptom of what is going wrong or has gone wrong in our public school system.
N.E.A. from my view point is a big problem! Possibly the REAL problem with our education system. The focus on WHAT is being taught, HOW it will be taught, etc. is a very big part of the problem!
Instead of focusing on the basic 3 R's the focus seems to be on being nice to everyone and major rewrites of history and the meanings behind the constitution.
Some protested making our schools centrally controlled for exactly those reasons.
Our children appear to be getting 1984 'd
-
Originally posted by Kieran
and if you collectively could agree on what you want, you could get it (probably).
And therein lies the problem. No way in hell everyone is ever going to agree as to what they want for their kids. That is one of the many reasons private schools exist. Time to make them more available to those with lower incomes.
-
Every kid with an IEP requires a big chunk of your class time. Teachers are legally bound to spend a great deal of their student contact time with these kids. A lot of their planning time can be eaten up with paper work and meetings for these students. Get a few IEP students in your class and the rest of your students can be legally screwed out of having a reasonable amount of your time for them to be taught properly.
kinda proves the point doesn't it? maybe the kids requiring iep's should be in a different class. the teachers that teach these classes should then have either a smaller class size, more free periods to keep up with the crap, or some combination of both.
but vouchers allow the parents to opt out of the system that groups all the kids together it makes a point. and it talks in a language that administration understands, it talks in $$$.
the fact is that for the most part schools don't listen (some teachers do, some principles do, but as a whole they don't). parents are treated as the ignorant masses, who really need the guidence of college educated childless people to tell them how to raise there kids.
schools are taking too much time on things that have nothing to do with educating, and more to do with raising the kids (and frankly every person I ever met that had the gov't oversee their childhood was a fluff'n mess).
parents have been saying this for years and nobody hears, they can't hear us over the special interest groups, the racial groups, the pro-abortion groups, the anti-gun groups, gay rights groups, and on and on and on. most of the leaders of these groups that get the schools ear don't even have kids, they're mostly just board college kids or professional activists.
and the anti-voucher group wants all kids in the same system. how stupid is that? with vouchers we can have several types of schools and you could send your kid to whichever one either run the way you think it should be or teaches in a way that your child can learn. I think, if your honest, all of you who have ever done any teaching would admit that different personality types learn best under completely different environments.
but putting everyone in one system is a recipe for disaster. it guarentees mediocrity at best. since this bbs is based on a military sim, I'll put it in a way we can all understand. "your convoy can only move at the speed of the slowest ship".
if we put all kids in the same system and focus extra atention on the kids who won't(can't) learn, then the best and brightest the hope for our future, (or even just the average) can only be ignored. it won't work any other way. when you have limited resources and focus extra atention on problem, slow, or the kids who don't speak the language, these resources must come from somewhere and they come from the other kids.
but with vouchers it's completely fair. all kids will recieve an equal and fair share of resources. if you can't trust your local school to teach your kid, find someone else, and his share of the resources should go with. as it is you are almost rewarding them for failing. now if your kid is getting screwed and you take him to private school you pay double (taxes, plus tuition) and the local schools get to keep resources for a child they don't have to teach.
how is that fair?
-
I went to both private and public schools - aside from the religious brain washing and uniforms - I saw no difference in the education standards.
In the private (religious) schools - there were great, good and horrible teachers. In public schools - there were great, good and horrible teachers.
I did have more fun with non-anal people, however, in the public school.
Just throwing this out there for anyone who wants the point of view from someone who had a good bit of both sides.
-SW
-
I went to a ghetto of a school. I turned out ok.
:rolleyes: :D
-
Holy Crap, what does it take to make you guys understand? (Apathy and Iron)
The schools don't make the decisions- your state and federal government does.
Laws are influenced by the NEA, yes, but mostly by advocacy groups, mostly parents.
As long as there are parents, there will be conflict in schools.
Vouchers will not remove litigious parents, or parent advocates.
Vouchers will not remove federal and state mandates- in fact they will increase in "private" schools.
You'll be right back to square one before you know it.
I know you guys are convinced schools don't care, teachers don't care, and vouchers are the panacea, but you are dead wrong. What's more, I can think of little more dispiriting than to have to listen to people tell me how our school doesn't care, or how our teachers don't care, blah, blah, blah...
"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
-
why not try it and see? why doesn't the public education industry want us to play it out?
the only harm I could see is for the curent screwed up system would lose control of some of the money. but then that doesn't real seem like 'harm' to me anyway.
even if you where right, and the private schools would eventually have the same problem anyway, we'd have a few years to crank out some kids with a decent shot at an education.
if the problem really did spred to the private schools (through contaminated money?). then it could only lead to a faster, better solution to the over-all problem. as most of the people who are in power send their kids to private schools, they would soon have as much an incentive to solve the education problems as the rest of us.
so far in public education the problem seems to be too much bureaucracy, and when a solution is demanded the answer is allways more bureaucracy.
forgive us from doubting that a solution is even possable with our sytem set-up the way it is.
-
vouchers would mean smaller class sizes in the existing public schools and in the new "voucher" schools created to absorb this "new" money
30 to 50 kids in a class, 6 to 8 classes day - what kind of teacher will handle that load for < $30k a year?
the kind we have today in the public school system...
-
Originally posted by Eagler
vouchers would mean smaller class sizes in the existing public schools and in the new "voucher" schools created to absorb this "new" money
30 to 50 kids in a class, 6 to 8 classes day - what kind of teacher will handle that load for < $30k a year?
the kind we have today in the public school system...
Where do you think "those kinds of kids" come from?
Private schools won't solve that problem...
By the way, I'll just assume this wasn't another slam on teachers...
-
Apathy, I've told you why I don't believe it will work, over and over. I know it's easier to ignore than face, so be it, I give.
Of course you are absolutely right, vouchers are sure the way to go. It will solve everything. No problems at all once they are in, you betcha. Parents will cooperate, children will want to learn, and the material will suddenly be interesting and totally absorbing. Yup, it seems so easy, I don't know why we haven't done it before.
-
no slam at all Kieran
hard enough to educate 30/40 "angels" in a typical class let alone 30/40 "average" students per class in today's public school system..
-
About the IEPs I edited my post but somehow the edit did nopt show up. I anticipated largely what you said on a case by case basis about them being a sort of disctraction. I suppose I did not understand that IEP kids were in the same classroom as other students. Anyway that would fall under one of my earlier complaints about new age "self-esteem" oriented instruction.
The teachers here you may all be good guys but I must be honest with you from my perspective as an outsider and as business student. My take on it is that the very fact such an entrenched and powerful beurocracy as teachers unions - and thats exactly what they are a beurocracy- is so obviously terrified and threatened by vouchers that they are worth trying out. You guys have allready all but admitted that all teachers unions care about is increasing compensdation and security for members and any program that takes away per pupil funding from the uinions public schooll honeypot is obviously a threat. I say give them a try.
-
I am not a union man- I feel it has done us much harm by aligning itself with organizations that didn't have education as a primary interest. I am not naive enough to believe, however, a private institution would be any better. Private institutions are about money in many cases.
The real harm from vouchers may come from the lack of quality offered. How much does it cost to build a school? To staff a school? Buy books, equipment, etc? Maybe metropolitan areas can afford to have multiple private schools competing for vouchers, but my guess is rural areas will not. At any rate, making money as the primary motivating force will mean cutting corners where ever possible. Bottom line; diminished opportunity.
Public schools are not perfect, but neither are they all bad. More, there is no escaping what contributes to making them the way they are so long as public moneys will be used to fund whatever school people attend. The government never gives money away with no strings attached.
-
OK WHOA just a minute...
Parental groups are forcing some of this stuff on us?, on our kids? I take exception to that!!! I DISAGREE ALLOT!!!!
What I see and have seen is mainly special interest groups that as before mentioned don't even have kids. Groups that want their social agenda to be ours whether we like it or not.
Further if they are forcing some of this stuff on everyone, they are far too often, a minority of individuals forcing their will on the majority.
The NEA is from my view point way out of line.
There seems to me to be some kind of aversion to reality within this organization and some of the other ones that are involved in creating this mess we have regarding education.
Just one example given from within my point of view:
This big national aversion to violence is troubling. NO I do not approve of violence. Nor do I disapprove of violence. The reality is violence is here and it will not go away because we wish it to, nor will it go away if we make a law outlawing it (in fact I believe we already have a huge number of laws outlawing violent behavior). Criminals are criminals because they have little respect for laws or the feeling of others. The reality is that there exist in this world people that seem take joy in violence and a seemingly real pleasure in inflicting it on others. AND I submit that for those of us that just wanna live our lives and raise our families basically in peace, when the violent come along and try to inflict violence upon us we have very little choice but to reply in kind. Why? Because that is the coin they understand. And they don't want to get hurt or dead any more then we do. And because calling 911 far too often takes so long we are injured or dead before they arrive.
Further where does this thing that a modern civilization must abhor violence and shun it? What is war? What did we just do to Afghanistan and Iraq. Why is it alright for a nation to deal in violence against those it claims threaten it and not alright for a single person or family????? Because they're politicians????? Thought they worked for us???
Is it purposeful? These things they are pushing on us? I wonder some times.
OK I got wordy again Worse I can not find the words to get my point accross in the manner I intend. :(
-
I have a class of 22 kids in career orientation. 8 of them have I.E.P.'s. They most certainly are lumped in. Bad idea, but that was legislated from the bench. As a teacher I have absolutely no choice in the matter- other than being a teacher or not. My school can't do anything about it either, other than refuse to offer the class to anyone at all. Of course that means they will dump those same kids in another class, so we may as well do the career class. No way the regular ed kids are getting anywhere near what they would otherwise, though. Sad for both sides, really.
Now if someone could explain how private schools wouldn't have to do the very same thing under the voucher program, I'd be all ears.
-
I like that we agree on the union issue. :)
I just like the idea of trying something new. The USA spends tons of money on education and we get low results up through highschool - at college level were the best though. So it's clear to me it's a cultural and not a funding issue and everty time I see incresed school spending its obvius to me that such funding is there to butter up the poweful unions and not solve problems. Therefire I feel a new approach is in order and vouvhers may be a part of that - and frankly anything else that the unions oppose should be given consideration as well. :)
That is if we care to increase k-12 performance and frankly sometimes I'm not that sure if thats neccesary for the type of career aspirations many young americans have. But thats part of the cultural issue I was refering to earler.
-
Parental groups are forcing some of this stuff on us?, on our kids? I take exception to that!!! I DISAGREE ALLOT!!!!
You may take exception, but you'd be wrong.
Parent advocates successfully argued children with disabilities must be given an equal opportunity to succeed in public schools. This was an extension of civil rights and anti-segregation legislation. It is most commonly known as the "Least Restrictive Environment" mandate, and you can easily do a google search if you don't wish to take my word for it. This one piece of legislation has had more of a profound effect on the state of public education than anything else in the last 25 years (IMHO).
Now you might think "equal opportunity sounds fair", but that is oversimplification. You see, who gets to determine fair is the critical point. Once again, the parent can determine to a great extent what education a child with disabilities will receive. They must sign off on the I.E.P. Typically an I.E.P. is formulated by a counselor, a parent, a principal, and a teacher, but it may also include a psychologist if the dysfunction is emotional (which they often are). At best, the teacher is one-fourth of the plan; at its worst, the counselor, psychologist, a principal and parent can back a teacher into a place that is unbearable. Parents seldom care if you have 25 other kids, or if you have 5 other kids on I.E.P.'s- not their problem, and that's pretty much the way they operate. Nope, you have to read the chapters to their kids, make notes, reduce test questions, water down standards, and generally, in some cases, pass the student for breathing. All by law, law effectively brought about by parents.
That's how it really is.
-
That is if we care to increase k-12 performance and frankly sometimes I'm not that sure if thats neccesary for the type of career aspirations many young americans have. But thats the cultural issue I was refering to earler.
good point, I feel we should increase the qualification for highschool graduation. just not get so bent out of shape every time a kid (who likely isn't paying attention anyway) decides to drop out. we encourage kids who refuse to learn to not give up, stick with it, stay in the way, you make a good roadblock for the kid who knows every effort he spends in school today will be returned to him many times over when he has a good job, and the luxery of only having to work up a sweat when he's at play.
let the kids who have promising careers ahead of them in the food service industry get to it, they can use the headstart anyway. teach them how to say "would you like fries with that?" and get them on their way.
-
Grun, what makes you so sure our performance is so poor? State standardized test scores? SAT? ACT? Just curious... as you might guess, I can add a great deal to that piece of your understanding, too.
-
Just the usual internatinal comparsions that are quoted every year. Plus my own personal experience in high school where immigrants from certain regions were better in math science etc.
I dont see how sat/act scores apply to an international comparsion.
-
Apathy-
You realize automation cost is just ->][<- far above the cost of minimum wage? Technology improves all the time, and costs continue to fall as well. Very soon the time will come when you pass your debit card at the register, punch in your own order, and the meal comes out the other side. No mistakes, no fear of mishandling, prompt service every time. Once minimum wage rises above that cost, or when automation falls below minimum wage cost, it's over for these entry-level jobs. The writing is on the wall.
Grun-
I can't argue public schools don't need to improve, because they do. I do know the scores that are held up and used to quantify performance are flawed themselves. Your experience is more important to me because it is firsthand, and as such I do value it. That to me carries more weight than an exit exam for seniors given to sophomores at the beginning of the school year, a test graded by minimum wage workers who have nothing better to do with their time, all of whom use a rubric that guarantees scoring on a standardized test will be non-standard.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
I have a class of 22 kids in career orientation. 8 of them have I.E.P.'s. They most certainly are lumped in. Bad idea, but that was legislated from the bench. As a teacher I have absolutely no choice in the matter- other than being a teacher or not. My school can't do anything about it either, other than refuse to offer the class to anyone at all. Of course that means they will dump those same kids in another class, so we may as well do the career class. No way the regular ed kids are getting anywhere near what they would otherwise, though. Sad for both sides, really.
Now if someone could explain how private schools wouldn't have to do the very same thing under the voucher program, I'd be all ears.
If you're assuming that the state gains more control over a private school simply by having students whose tution is paid for or supplemented by vouchers then you may be assuming too much. The state already dictates parameters to private schools and these should not be changed because of vouchers. Doing so will only doom them to the same failure we now see in many of our public schools.
-
Doing so will only doom them to the same failure we now see in many of our public schools.
That's exactly what I have been saying for my entire participation in this thread. It WILL happen because it's taxpayers' money, and taxpayers have a nasty habit of wanting their money spent in a way they desire. This means they want control, in part, of the school agenda. Private schools have power because they do not take public money; the minute they do, they lose the power.
-
Agreed Kieran. However, there's still hope. By your logic the taxpayers can decide the state should not interfere anymore than it is currently in the affairs of private education.
-
all it would take is wording in the voucher law that would state it as being given to the parent for educating the child. or even do away with the voucher itself and just give the parent a tax credit equal to the money alocated per child in their school district. the only requirement for gov't involvment should be the same as for home-school now. (as it has been explained to me the kid has to take tests and meet standard and show improvement, basicly is the program working).
all it would take is an aknowledgement that this is a danger and petting language in the law to insulate the program from too much gov't involvement
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Agreed Kieran. However, there's still hope. By your logic the taxpayers can decide the state should not interfere anymore than it is currently in the affairs of private education.
In theory that is possible now. What regular ed parents have not yet (it seems) figured out is they themselves could be an overwhelming block advocacy group if they so desired. As it is, factions have succeeded in breaking the community into smaller and more conflicting segments.
Running away from the problem won't fix it; it simply moves the problem to a new location.
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
all it would take is wording in the voucher law that would state it as being given to the parent for educating the child. or even do away with the voucher itself and just give the parent a tax credit equal to the money alocated per child in their school district. the only requirement for gov't involvment should be the same as for home-school now. (as it has been explained to me the kid has to take tests and meet standard and show improvement, basicly is the program working).
all it would take is an aknowledgement that this is a danger and petting language in the law to insulate the program from too much gov't involvement
Under a voucher program I doubt you would ever physically hold a dime. The voucher would be just that- a voucher. You submit it to the school of your choice, and they submit it for the funds. If a cursory check of the school finds the school isn't measuring up to state or federal guidelines for schools receiving such moneys- BAM! Money withheld. Private schools will either be on the list or they won't. No way parents will just get the money as a tax credit; many parents would spend it on a new car and cry poverty. No, the government will ensure they know exactly where the money is going, and how it is being spent.
-
Originally posted by banana
Exactly.
Rude, I commend you on caring enough about your kids' education to be very involved, but IMO your animosity towards teachers is misplaced and influenced by the reactionary right.
fd-ski speaks the truth. I was a teacher for 5 years in the public schools, and I know for a fact that every kid who wanted to learn and had caring parents, learned a ton.
Don't blame the teachers for the failings of a generation of disconnected parents. Parents expect teachers to somehow force their kids to learn by magic, without working at it at home, and without being respectful during school. That is nonsense.
As a highly skilled teacher in my profession, I welcome extensive testing of all teachers. Those who pass the tests should be recognized as being superior in their subject and paid on a par with other professions.
Rude, the "system" may be broken, but the teachers sure aren't.
Wank....
I never said teachers were the problem, however, some are I'm sure. It's the system....especially the administrators and absolutely the school boards.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
yes Rude, but benefits you describe only occur in current situation with mostly public schools and very few, and very expensive private schools.
Let me give you a sceanrio here:
All private schools, all vouchers, so on so fourth.
First item of competition: PRICE. I know you will argue till you are blue in the face that quality of education will be a detemining factor, but fact remains that right mix of MARKETING and PRICING always wins. Want an example ? Fighter Ace vs AH - look at populations between the games. Same applies to all things which are marketed.
So say we have two schools: They both have same ammount of money.
One invests in training better teachers, other hires good PR agency and does a huge campaign. It hires worst teachers to cut costs and convinces everyone in town that "we are better then the other school". Net result is that next year, the school with better teachers has to do very much the same else it will go out of business. Price war proceeds, teacher salaries get slashed. Can you say videoconference lecuture over teh internet from outsourced indian teacher ? :)
There are some things that are so important and unmeasurable that they shouldn't be a subject to "free market" practices:
education and healthcare.
As it stands our school system has a potential to do great, but parents and silly laws are preventing that from happening.
Opening the system up to mega corporations and CEOs crunching "number of chalks/classroom vs profit" ratios isn't going to fix the very core of the system. As long as tax payers are paying for schools - parents won't care.
The only answer is to engage parents. And the only way i see at this point to make that happend: Charge them directly.
Leave public schools, and charge parents tuition based on their kid's grades. Better grade - lower tuition.
When mommy and daddy get slapped with 3000$ a year bill because Johnny is a fricking moron and nobody paid any attention to his schoolwork, maybe they will change their approach.
Good idea:)
-
Originally posted by banana
Then it's your state's problem. Minnesota is one of the best states in the nation to get a solid public school education in.
Minnesotan's as a whole value education as a top priority, and hence we pay more in taxes to get that education. If the people in your state don't have their priorities in order, that's their business.
AKIron, not talking about you or your situation, but in general, I've heard that argument before. "The teacher didn't like me" or "It's the teacher's fault I didn't get an A".
Bull.
There is something called personal accountability, something which is sadly lacking in today's society. Ask any Rebulican, they'll agree with me. But when it comes to education, they conveniently forget this, and instead play the blame game against teachers.
Republicans don't blame teachers...for the most part we just believe that spouting lies about inadequate funding as the problem with our school systems is just pain dishonest.
I agree totally with you that the parents have let the children down and that all the money in the world won't fix that.
-
Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal :D
On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal :D
On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?
Why not? Provided you're a state certified teacher.
-
Here's a fine example of our tax dollars being spent by the KCMO School District.
Singer to be paid $15,000 to perform for KC School District convocation
By MATT CAMPBELL
The Kansas City Star
Singer Oleta Adams has been hired for $15,000 to perform at a back-to-school rally for Kansas City School District educators and administrators.
The event, called a convocation, will be Aug. 18 at Community of Christ Auditorium in Independence. That is the day more than 3,500 district staffers are to report for duty before classes begin Aug. 25.
District officials said the event was intended to show appreciation to educators and encourage a positive attitude going into a new school year in which the district faces many challenges.
One big challenge is dealing with a smaller budget that will mean fewer teachers and librarians. At least one Board of Education member is skeptical about the entertainment cost for the convocation.
"Fifteen thousand dollars would buy 600 books at $25 apiece," said Duane Kelly, a former teacher in the district. "There's about 75 schools. That's about eight books per school in the library. There are different ways of doing things. I'm more inclined to go with books that will last for years than this sort of thing."
But Edwin Birch, spokesman for the district and organizer of the convocation, said tough financial times would make an inspirational gathering for the staff even more important.
"We have to make sure we keep people's morale up," he said. "I think Oleta Adams is classy. Having her sing for our teachers speaks volumes."
Birch said the district anticipated criticism of the decision to hire Adams and had sought help from private organizations and businesses to defray the costs of the convocation. He estimated the event would cost more than $20,000, including Adams, auditorium rental and buses to transport staffers to Independence.
Birch said the district had received about $10,000 in donations toward the convocation so far.
In addition to the performance by Adams, the program for this year's three-hour convocation includes an address by Kansas City Councilwoman and minister Saundra McFadden-Weaver, remarks from Superintendent Bernard Taylor Jr., and performances by a comedian and students.
Adams, who lives in the Kansas City area, is contracted to deliver a 40- to 45-minute performance.
According to the district's contract with the William Morris Agency, which represents Adams, the artist's requirements for her dressing room include makeup lighting and mirrors, a deli tray, two bottles of Evian water, orange juice, coffee and tea.
-
Here's another.
Public School Pays Students To Attend Class
Some Parents, Officials Split Over Plan
POSTED: 7:06 p.m. CDT July 8, 2003
UPDATED: 7:58 p.m. CDT July 8, 2003
KANSAS CITY, Mo. --
Video
School Gives Gifts To Keep Kids In Class
Should students be paid to go to school? That was the big issue as the Kansas City, Mo., School District handed out more than 1,100 gift certificates to students on Tuesday.
The trend is an emerging one, KMBC's Micheal Mahoney reported. Some students are getting paid to go to school, especially summer school.
In the past, students went to summer school to make up for classes they flunked. But now, many kids go to class during the summer to get ahead.
At Central High School, some students took a summer course on William Shakespeare this year. Central has the lowest summer-school attendance rate in the district, but still, four out of five students show up for class, Mahoney reported. Many officials are convinced that gift certificates are a factor.
SURVEY
The Kansas City, Mo., School District issues $50 gift certificates to students who have perfect attendance to some classes. Is this a good policy?
Yes
No
Results | Disclaimer
"The incentive does a great job of helping with the attendance. I think it's also a great motivational resource tool that you can use for kids," said William McClendon, principal of Central High.
And students don't seem to mind the plan, either.
"I'm not saying that you're supposed to need it, but it kind of helps the kids, and this is an urban school district," said Richard Martin, a student at Central. "You know, there's a lot of problems with attendance, especially in our district."
While students rarely turn down the gift certificates, some parents don't care for the idea.
"I don't think they should be paid for this. You know, that's why they have summer jobs. Because if kids think they can get paid for everything they do, it seems to me, sometimes that might make them not want to do nothing else unless they get some money for it," Central parent Rachelle Abernathy said.
A number of other school districts in the area have similar gift-certificate programs for summer-school attendance, Mahoney reported. In the Kansas City district, a student with perfect attendance gets a $50 gift certificate. If they miss one day, students still get a certificate for $25.
-
I don't see why not Ski.
Though personally I'd prefer private schools be required to admit a percentage of students under 'vouchers' at zero charge to either the gov't or the families, in exchange for being allowed to operate.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal :D
On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?
Not acredited by the state.
-
Originally posted by Fatty
I don't see why not Ski.
Though personally I'd prefer private schools be required to admit a percentage of students under 'vouchers' at zero charge to either the gov't or the families, in exchange for being allowed to operate.
You mean operate under cost?
-
Fatty: then we are getting into equal opportunity discussion and that........ can i say it..... COMMUNIST ? :)
I would argue against such a move. Doesn't accomplish anything.
Rude:
State credited teachers, fine. How many ? Also, it's a private school, do private schools today have to have state credited teachers ? All of them ? Somehow i'd guess that most heavly religious schools don't, or at least not all. If that's a case, i'll get credited and open a school "Bart's Kick bellybutton High". You can open a charter of my school anywhere in the state, i have proper accreditation, you teach your own kid and i get 10% of your voutcher money. Once a month you bring a kid for a "test" consisting of two questions "which way is up, and where is the check ?"
Would that work ?
-
As I said, if it weren't for the elitist democrat capitalists, poor kids would have the same opportunities as rich ones.
Yes Kieran. A business expense for private schools if you will. Or as a tax that is actually progressive to ease the incredibly regressive property tax.
How's that for out democrating the democrats?
-
you guys are still missing the point... the public school system is broken.... beyond broken reall... there is no system that could do worse. we have reached dropout and idiot saturation point in our public schools.
the teachers n this board tell us that we are the buerocracy and that we should fix public schools and that they would love to see em "fixed" but.... I don't ever see any suggestion from any union teacher that is pointed toward improving teaching.... only toward getting even more money while working even less hours. Hving the facility open 12 months a year would cut costs and improve education but I don't see any teachers suggesting that. or accademic standards.
The only thing I ever see from teachers is defense of the broken system so they really have very little credibility with me when they say "it can be fixed"
On a private school level it does get fixed... if you don't like something enough... if you think it is hindering you kids education... you vote with your checkbook.... in the public school you are powerless.... who of us got to vote on blingual education? or any of a number of silly programs?
lazs
-
Lazs, I am non-union teacher. I have offered a solution. I have also advised things will not change a bit so long as the root cause exists. Where it happens will matter little, the problems will continue to exist. In addition, any teacher will tell you ripping a kid in and out of school is extremely detrimental to their education, so "voting with your checkbook" will hurt your kid in the long haul- if you exercise the right every time you get upset about something.
I wonder how many private schools would really crop up, how many could be successful, what the critical mass would be, how the margin would be made, etc. I understand you don't have kids in school anymore, and you don't like to see your tax dollars spent this way. Fair enough. OTOH, have you considered the possibility this system could actually lead to a decline in educational standards? What if private education drove education under... then in a few short years private schools decide there is no way to make money in the business under federal regulation (which WOULD exist). They close the doors, and students go...? Not trying to play a doomsday card, but it has to be considered as a possibility.
I also have to laugh at people who believe schools had less of a dropout rate "back in the day". LOL! A lot of the people spouting crap like "our kids can't pass the state tests" can't pass the test themselves. Where were THEY educated? At those mythical "better" schools of old?
You regular education parents need to decide on your agenda and stick with it. Write your congressmen, apply some pressure to your school boards, and become the advocates the special interest parents have successfully become. Do that, and it won't matter where you go to school. Don't do that and things will never get better- public or private.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
You regular education parents need to decide on your agenda and stick with it. Write your congressmen, apply some pressure to your school boards, and become the advocates the special interest parents have successfully become. Do that, and it won't matter where you go to school. Don't do that and things will never get better- public or private.
What about those of us with grown kids or without kids? We don't have the close contact with the system needed to determine if it is being managed effectively. Of course we still pay our taxes and have a vested interest in future generations. I'm with Lazs on this, time to give those that have demonstrated the ability to succeed more power.
-
I say go ahead, but I do so with the warning you are going to wind up in the same situation you are now, if not worse.
-
My bet is that within 30 years of the privatization of the public school system it will be so corrupt , and disgusting we will give up on it.
I can imagine it now, US history brought to you by Pepsi! 80 percent of private schools owned and opperated by Rupert Murdoch.( the buyouts and the mergers will be rampant and hilarious, GO NABISCO HIGH !). The idea of choice of private schools to chose from will be gone pretty quick. Education lobbyists will fight the oil and big tobacco for who gets the most free handouts. Oh man the comedy that will insue is almost worth it!
-
Free enterprise hasn't failed us yet. Of course everything is subject to mishandling and corruption.
-
akiron, free enterprise is just as corrupt and idiotic as our public stuff. Northeast blackouts due to deregulations! noway!
The whole point of a business is to make profit. Employees and the public are something they dont give a flying **** about unless it affects profit. And they shouldnt. their goal is to make as much cash as possible. Maximum profit, and more power to them i say.
I dont want someone with that mentallity running the school systems though.
-
Originally posted by Frogm4n
akiron, free enterprise is just as corrupt and idiotic as our public stuff. Northeast blackouts due to deregulations! noway!
Free enterprise cannot be corrupted except by regulation. People, on the other hand, are very susceptible to corruption.
Confucius say: "Change is usually painful and not always better, at least immediately. A system designed to prevent pain by limiting change will become stagnant. Great reward requires risk."
Well, maybe it wasn't Confucius. ;)
-
the teachers n this board tell us that we are the buerocracy and that we should fix public schools and that they would love to see em "fixed" but.... I don't ever see any suggestion from any union teacher that is pointed toward improving teaching.... only toward getting even more money while working even less hours. Hving the facility open 12 months a year would cut costs and improve education but I don't see any teachers suggesting that. or accademic standards.
Then you must never have read any of my posts about education. Even when I was a teacher, I always felt that school should be held year round, with teachers earning vacation time like any other business. Beginning teachers would start with a couple weeks of vacation, and earn more as they gain experience. Teachers should be allowed to use that vacation whenever they want to, instead of having their vacation times dictated to them by the school district as it is now.
We are not the agrarian society that we once were. There's no compelling reason to keep school a Sept.- June operation. It should be year-round.
Lazs, your underlying belief that all teachers are lazy, and are only in teaching for the great money, low stress, and cushy work environment is so ignorant and naiive, it belies explanation.
Either you are trolling again, or you had some experiences in your youth that has permanently embittered you towards teachers.
I left the teaching profession 8 years ago because the pay was lousy, the stress enormous, and respect for teachers and desire to learn were almost non-existent. What is amazing to me is that there are still any dedicated teachers out there.
I work in the technology field now, and my stress level is nearly zero, my pay is good, and I feel that my skills are respected and appreciated by my employer. How many teachers can say that?
I know this would create anarchy, but I hope all you teacher haters get your wish. I would love to see all public school teachers resign en-mass, and tell the country they can "take this job and shove it". Believe me, it would be the best thing the teachers could do for their lives.
After that happens, all the teacher haters would then have the opportunity to put up, or shut up.
-
Originally posted by banana
I know this would create anarchy, but I hope all you teacher haters get your wish. I would love to see all public school teachers resign en-mass, and tell the country they can "take this job and shove it". Believe me, it would be the best thing the teachers could do for their lives.
After that happens, all the teacher haters would then have the opportunity to put up, or shut up.
Pretty big chip you have there.
-
Yes, I do have a big chip on my shoulder. I spent my whole youth dedicated to becoming a good teacher. And after spending five years pouring my whole heart and soul into that profession, I was near suicide by the time I decided to get out.
a career as a teacher in the public schools in this day and age is, IMO, for masochists and saints, only.
I am not ashamed to admit I have a chip on my shoulder. I have talked the talk and walked the walk. Have you, AKIron?
-
I have walked my walk banana and I won't bore you with the details.
I don't think anyone here is advocating getting rid of our teachers (well, except maybe you ;).) We'll always need teachers whether in private schools or public. I for one will appreciate them more when they can do their jobs better without being so heavily chained by bureaucracy.
For one with a zero stress job you seem to be pretty stressed.
-
No, I'm not stressed. But whenever I discuss education, I get these, if you'll excuse the analogy, "Vietnam-like" flashbacks.
I'm get all riled up when discussing education because I'm passionate about it. I think there is nothing more important to a society than quality education. It's the only real ticket out for those born into poverty.
You've got to admit, pouring your whole being into a profession for the sake of others, and then realizing that you are underappreciated and undervalued by society as whole, can break even the strongest of wills. I simply got tired of being a crusader, battling apathy and beaurocracy day in and day out.
Life in the big, coporate world is great compared to teaching. It has it's stressful moments, too. But nothing like teaching in the public schools.
-
Understood.
-
awww I think everyone needs a group hug:D :D :D
-
Originally posted by Trell
awww I think everyone needs a group hug:D :D :D
Maybe if you'd apply some deodorant. :p
-
banana, S! for you and all the teachers, you have a hard row to hoe.
-
Anyone have evidence of a voucher system that worked?
-
has any county tried the voucher system yet?
I see no reason not to try it somwhere in small numbers to try it out.
i think it is a good idea. as long as the goverment does not put too many strings on it.
btw I am not sure that it will work.
I am sure that people that already have the money and send there children to private school are really pushing for this.
so you could say that this is more for the rich then for the poor
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Fatty: then we are getting into equal opportunity discussion and that........ can i say it..... COMMUNIST ? :)
I would argue against such a move. Doesn't accomplish anything.
Rude:
State credited teachers, fine. How many ? Also, it's a private school, do private schools today have to have state credited teachers ? All of them ? Somehow i'd guess that most heavly religious schools don't, or at least not all. If that's a case, i'll get credited and open a school "Bart's Kick bellybutton High". You can open a charter of my school anywhere in the state, i have proper accreditation, you teach your own kid and i get 10% of your voutcher money. Once a month you bring a kid for a "test" consisting of two questions "which way is up, and where is the check ?"
Would that work ?
Now you're being silly
-
Originally posted by Frogm4n
My bet is that within 30 years of the privatization of the public school system it will be so corrupt , and disgusting we will give up on it.
I can imagine it now, US history brought to you by Pepsi! 80 percent of private schools owned and opperated by Rupert Murdoch.( the buyouts and the mergers will be rampant and hilarious, GO NABISCO HIGH !). The idea of choice of private schools to chose from will be gone pretty quick. Education lobbyists will fight the oil and big tobacco for who gets the most free handouts. Oh man the comedy that will insue is almost worth it!
What you speak of may happen...ya just left out the part about the graduates being actually educated.
-
midnight Target: Anyone have evidence of a voucher system that worked?
Definitely. Any family that tried the voucher system for a year and did not go back to the public school is a proof that the voucher system worked in their particular case.
Of course their definition of "work" may differ from yours. Theirs may be "getting better education in a safer environment for my child" while some other's mey be "providing secure jobs to incompetent teachers and power to their union handlers".
miko
-
Trell, people that already have the money to send their kids to a private school are not likely to be in a school zone that would qualify for vouchers unless they are a resident slumlord.
-
I'm not being silly :) I'm just pointing our extreme to illustrate the point. System will be open to wide spread abuse and will end up heavly regulated - thereby removing benefits that today private schools have - thanks to lack of said regulation.
-
Originally posted by miko2d
midnight Target: Anyone have evidence of a voucher system that worked?
Definitely. Any family that tried the voucher system for a year and did not go back to the public school is a proof that the voucher system worked in their particular case.
Of course their definition of "work" may differ from yours. Theirs may be "getting better education in a safer environment for my child" while some other's mey be "providing secure jobs to incompetent teachers and power to their union handlers".
miko
I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?
-
Originally posted by Fatty
Trell, people that already have the money to send their kids to a private school are not likely to be in a school zone that would qualify for vouchers unless they are a resident slumlord.
I am thinking up the road a little, or if they did this nation wide.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?
they need to roll it out in large numbers (a whole city or community) to see if it helps the community as a whole. and or at least a 3-4 year trial
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Anyone have evidence of a voucher system that worked?
Positive Results from Current Voucher Programs
Currently, there are several programs running in the United States that are using some sort of school choice. Paul O. Peterson and David E. Campbell of Harvard University's Program on Education Policy and Governance studied the scores on tests from Dayton, Ohio, New York City, and Washington D.C. Scores for African Americans increased in all three cities. No other changes were noted from students of other ethnicity's. The difference between black and white scores also decreased when compared to the average of the entire United States. Samples were chosen at random. Minorities took a great advantage of the programs in these three cities. As stated earlier, except for African Americans, there were no signs of change in overall test scores (Peterson).
-
Hold on, so let me get this right: vouchers are for poor so that they can go to a private school ?
I thought they were for everyone, like "all the taxpayers" so that they had a choice with their kids education.
That would be free market.
What you guys are describing is forced equal opprtunity program and being good republicans that you are, you should hate it instead of advocating it.
:D
-
Isn't that what I said?
A bunch of times?
-
New York City has a voucher program?
-
I have a question, Rude... where did all the other children in the school district go? What I mean is... of course the difference between blacks' and whites' scores would diminish IF only the motivated blacks and whites attended a school. Duh (not intended disrepectfully). The real acid test is when ALL the kids attend private schools.
Americans have had home and private schooling before you know... we called it "the 1800's". Some of the smartest people came from the South, where private and home schooling gave us some of the best scholars of the age. Too bad 98% of the population went uneducated, but look at the results those private schools and home schooling produced.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Hold on, so let me get this right: vouchers are for poor so that they can go to a private school ?
No, the voucher system takes the money allotted to schools, and divides it among the students who would be attending the schools.
The students (read parents of) could then spend this allotment for education. The money follows the students, and the students then have the power of the consumer to buy the best product.
Schools would then be forced to compete for market share thereby encouraging the product to improve.
-
The real acid test is when ALL the kids attend private schools
who would want that? I don't believe I've read any posts calling for the dismantallint of the public education system (I may have missed it, there are 4 pages of posts here)
my hope would be when faced with some direct competition public schools would feel an urge to compete
-
You don't believe losing dollars will have an impact on public schools? You don't believe people will scream to have schools closed (thereby saving tax dollars)? We are seeing schools close already because of budget shortfalls. Those kids will HAVE to go somewhere.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
You don't believe losing dollars will have an impact on public schools?
I for one certainly hope so.
Just like any business, a school losing money would be forced to change. If they can turn it around and improve their service, they will survive. If they cannot, then those schools will have failed.
The votes of the parents will have chosen which schools are to close.
An incompetant mechanic will lose his customers to a better mechanic, and the better mechanic's business will grow.
Same idea with education.
-
Some would close and some should close.
You're right, they will have to go somewhere else. Likely to a public school in a richer zoning, which seem to do quite fine under the current system.
And they will be better off for it.
-
And just like the mechanic business, when the customer base cannot support expenses, it will die. When that happens, you have to drive to the next town to get your car fixed.
-
Originally posted by Fatty
Some would close and some should close.
You're right, they will have to go somewhere else. Likely to a public school in a richer zoning, which seem to do quite fine under the current system.
And they will be better off for it.
Who is going to bus them there?
-
So it will be like now where the cars run better?
-
Use the buses from the closed schools, heck you'll even keep the bus driver's jobs.
Seemed to work okay for segregation. Same thing, just economic this time.
-
Don't get lost in the analogy... could be any business. Where there is demand, business will flourish.
-
So you are going to make the school corporation, with even less dollars, bear the burden of transporting people further and further away. Hmmm....
...not to mention you will now increase the student/teacher ratio, which will without doubt negatively impact student performance. Hmmm...
Nope, I don't see any problems at all.
-
We've got all the teachers we fired from the original school, Kieran.
Seriously, I started out in this thread actually in support of teachers and their unions, but you've about convinced me that people are right. They are starting to appear a serious obstacle to progress in education.
-
You may have all the teachers, but you don't have the rooms you once had. Student/teacher ratios will go up.
Come to any conclusion you wish. If you've been supportive, I must have missed it.
-
Let me be serious too, then... does it not strike you as odd that all the teachers, or people with teaching experience, are basically telling you the same thing?
-
You don't believe losing dollars will have an impact on public schools? You don't believe people will scream to have schools closed (thereby saving tax dollars)? We are seeing schools close already because of budget shortfalls. Those kids will HAVE to go somewhere.
but they are loosing students at the exact same ratio that they are loosing dollars. so the public schools loose nothing. say they loose half their kids to public schools and loose half the money, whats the problem.
sure there'd be lay-offs, but hey good news, private school's hiring, maybe you can get a job there.
And just like the mechanic business, when the customer base cannot support expenses, it will die. When that happens, you have to drive to the next town to get your car fixed.
but if the machanic in your town wasn't doing a good job working on your car (you know forgets to pack the bearings and such resulting in an over-all crappy job), would you really mind traveling farther to get the job done if it was getting done right?
sure, it would be great if you could get it done right in your home town, but around here at least, it's not getting done.
the situation we have now is a choice of sending it to the local mechanic who is not getting the job done, or taking it out of town to get it done, pay the out of town guy, and also pay the local mechanic even if you don't trust him to work on it and never let him touch your car (He, by the way is outraged that we want to take our cars and money elsewhere, why if he can barely keep the 200 cars that he works on now running with the money he has now, how will he ever get the job done when half those people take there cars and money elsewhere).
that leaves the people (most of us) who can only afford to pay one mechanic to fix our car stuck with the guy doing a lousy job.
and the ***** of it is that it will go on for generations because if I can't afford to pay double for automotive services(to get the qualified mechanic**), then my car wont likely be dependable making my arival at work undependable. this keeps me in lower paying jobs so I will only be able to afford a crappy car worked on by the lousy mechanic for my kid, and he will be stuck in the same situation.
**the public school system is unqualified, not a statement of individual teachers. some are great, some suck
-
An absolute refusal to discuss any change to the status quo makes it quite difficult.
-
does it not strike you as odd that all the teachers, or people with teaching experience, are basically telling you the same thing?
ummm, no not really.
let's see, I make my living teaching your kid. you want people to have the financial freedom to take their kid and the money you pay me to teach him to someone you feel can do a better job, because you don't think I can get the job done. Well it is my experienced and proffesional opinion that I'm against it and I think it's a really bad thing.
nope, doesn't suprise me at all.
-
Here it is, Fatty... I am ready to discuss the possibilities both ways. I am not and have not argued for a second private schools do a better job than public. I've even offered reasons why public schools are in trouble. I personally feel you guys are so convinced vouchers are the way to go you don't consider the possibility they'll fail, or what the consequences will be if they do. That is close-minded. I cannot fathom how 100% of practicing teacher opinion is so totally rejected out of hand.
I think as parents you should do whatever you believe is in the best interest of your child(ren). If you think private schools are it, go. I hope you get your vouchers, I do, but I am going to be ready with a great big fat "I told you so" when, surprise, surprise, mandates start getting slapped down on those schools and turn them into public schools all over again. I'm not against change, you see, but I don't see the point of changing to something that only treats the symptoms.
I've offered my suggestion- parent advocates have been successful for focus groups, parents of regular ed need to get active. They haven't thus far and have been steamrolled. Go ahead, quit the system, but it isn't going to change.
"Meet the new boss.
It's the same as the old boss."
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
ummm, no not really.
let's see, I make my living teaching your kid. you want people to have the financial freedom to take their kid and the money you pay me to teach him to someone you feel can do a better job, because you don't think I can get the job done. Well it is my experienced and proffesional opinion that I'm against it and I think it's a really bad thing.
nope, doesn't suprise me at all.
Thanks, I was afraid someone wouldn't accuse me of selfishly looking out for my own self interests.
-
Well hmmmmm
OK this is the kinda stuff that is being said about our current education system.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/09/09/blumenfeld.htm
I'm NOT saying it's right or wrong!
Just saying that this is allot of the kind of stuff that is being said. And it's being said by many kinds and types of people. Be they Muslim, Christian, secular, whatever! Many people object to different portions of the public education system.
So is someone gonna say ya can't please everyone? My impression here is that a VERY few, if any, are being pleased by our current education system!
-
I stand corrected, mild variations on the status quo. The system is going to change, especially as the pilot programs continue to meet with success.
The NEA can be the major focus in what those changes are or it can act like a bloated union, fight change every step of the way, and be left out of the decision completely.
-
Thanks, I was afraid someone wouldn't accuse me of selfishly looking out for my own self interests.
not trying to acuse you of being selfish, just pointing out that while your position has some insights others don't, it also comes with bias, in the form of financial incentive for this working out a certain way.
there's nothing wrong with tryng to make a good living, or working to get as much bussiness as you can for your company (school system).
there's also nothing wrong with a customer shoping around for a better value.
between my 3 kids (34 school years worth), and my own (13 years), I have 47 school years experience with public schools and I also have some insights into the problem.
the thing is when you have a problem with the way things run in a school you generally get one of 2 options.
the "I'm the expert, you're the ignorant parent, you have no idea whats best for your kid, if you'd only listen to me" patronising crap.
or the same blank stare the lady at the phone company gives you because you both know you can't take your bussiness elsewhere
not gov't mandated things, like class sizes, or problem kids forced on you, but things that should be adressed like-
a school sale with your amount of sales going to your grade, can you say 'grade buying', the resolution to this was my son was given the points as if he sold the product, the program was not changed or cancelled for the next year.
or, zero tollorance programs so that my daughter who suffers from cronic indigestion problems can't keep a roll of tums in her purse in middle school or she will be expelled for drug possesion, however some advertisers where willing to donate money if the school would send home their sample packs, they sent these home with all of the kids from the middle school, and the elementary my other daughter attended. the packs included (among other things tylonol, alka-slser, excederin, nyquil gel-caps, and 5 or 6 other drugs. to my way of thinking(considering the zero tolorance policy) every teacher in the school was, by the schools own deffinition, suplying drugs to their students.
and in these and a dozen other issues, blank stares and condescending attitudes.
so I see nothing wrong with it and am not afraid to admit, I am sefishly looking out for my own best interest and the best interest of my children. we need another choice
-
One last try and out...
If you guys can't realize the state of public schools is the result of a two-way street (that is, parents play a big role in the disastrous policies we now have) you cannot hope to have real change in a new setting. The problems will follow you.
Of course I recognize we do some really stupid things. I work in the schools, I see it. Every single workplace I have ever seen has had their share of stupid policies, too.
Wrag, if I could hand pick the best and brightest lawyers from any lawfirm I wished, I could make a lawfirm that would dominate courts. Easy as pie, so long as I can exclude deadweights who won't contribute. And, as I siphon off the talent, the lesser firms are going to look worse and worse by comparison.
I've apparently overstated my case, and I'll leave it at that.
-
kieran... no... it's you who refuse to get it... two way, four way ten way street... who frigging cares? public schools are broken and the teachers... their unions and the politicians have ZERO suggestions on how to fix em.... worse... they have nothing but suggestions on how to suck more money while doing less real teaching and... they do nthing but blame everyone else for them not doing their job. worse than that... they cry unfair when it is pointed out that EVERONE who tries including parents (home schooling) does a better job than they do..
I seriously doubt that you will have real parents out in the street protesting if public schools were simply abolished.
but kieran... you claim it all the parents fault... I believe you... we should be doing our best to get rid of public schools and get something better. if you have any suggestions to improving public schools then I have yet to hear it.
so... how would you improve the existing school system?
lazs
-
I wouldn't lazs. Vouchers are absolutely the best way to go. I think we should go for it right away. It is going to fix everything, just you wait and see.
-
Competition almost always leads to improvement. Vouchers will force public schools to compete with private. Win/win the way I see it.
Like it or not vouchers are coming. Playing the blame game won't change it.
-
Absolutely right. Go Vouchers!
-
Read Thomas Sowell today:
Column (http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/today/editorial_f3e5cc6f47fe10a5000e.html)
-
Originally posted by Kieran
So you are going to make the school corporation, with even less dollars, bear the burden of transporting people further and further away. Hmmm....
...not to mention you will now increase the student/teacher ratio, which will without doubt negatively impact student performance. Hmmm...
Nope, I don't see any problems at all.
How do you explain private schools cost per student ratio being significantly less than that of public schools, yet the product they turn out is superior to that of public schools?
-
Originally posted by Gadfly
Read Thomas Sowell today:
Column (http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/today/editorial_f3e5cc6f47fe10a5000e.html)
Good read, thanks.
"Trying to be imitation Democrats is a strategy that has completely failed the Republicans for decades now. The time is long overdue to put their own principles in a contract and begin the process of making a coherent appeal to black voters -- one that is believable, as well as one that offers some real hope of racial progress."
-
Originally posted by Rude
How do you explain private schools cost per student ratio being significantly less than that of public schools, yet the product they turn out is superior to that of public schools?
I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!
-
Originally posted by Kieran
I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!
You're smarter than I thought. :p
-
Originally posted by AKIron
You're smarter than I thought. :p
How can that be? I am a public school teacher...:cool:
-
Originally posted by Kieran
How can that be? I am a public school teacher...:cool:
Oh well, just shows what I know, having gone to public school and all.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
but kieran... you claim it all the parents fault... I believe you... we should be doing our best to get rid of public schools and get something better. if you have any suggestions to improving public schools then I have yet to hear it.
The idea is not to get rid of public education, it is to foster improvement by introducing large scale competition.
-
they cry unfair when it is pointed out that EVERONE who tries including parents (home schooling) does a better job than they do..
Give home school parents 35 kids to teach, each with diffferent backgrounds and varying degrees of motivation and abilities...and give them only 50 minutes each day to teach these 35 students. Oh yes, and they have to be complete strangers, so they can face all the discipline problems a public school teacher has. Once that happens, only then will we see if they're doing a better job than a public school teacher.
Lazs, even you could teach someone something if you had 12 hours a day of one-on-one contact with them. This is what the average home school parent has. Public School teachers don't have that luxury.
You know how many students my wife teaches each week? 750. Think about how easy or difficult it would be to try to get 750 different people educated in your job each week.
-
Give it up, banana. These guys are convinced it is the only way to save education. Feel free to laugh when it doesn't.
-
Give home school parents 35 kids to teach, each with diffferent backgrounds and varying degrees of motivation and abilities...and give them only 50 minutes each day to teach these 35 students. Oh yes, and they have to be complete strangers, so they can face all the discipline problems a public school teacher has.
sure, put them in a public school setting (as they are run now), and anyone would likely have the same results as now.
the teachers should be able to tell the difference between an attack on the system and an attack on teachers. there are some great teachers out there, it's the system that is screwed.
-
banana, Kieran PLEASE...
I for one DO NOT blame the teachers! OK?
I was very fortunate to have known at least 5 different teachers that were caring concerned individuals that tried so very hard to teach the subjects they were so very good in. I guess you could say I was blessed. They made up for, at least in my view, a couple that were most sadly lacking in the teaching department.
I understand Unions though. Unions can and will do things that aren't always in the members interest. They claim it is but... in far too many ways Unions can be totally anti-constitutional, totally anti-freedom. And you're stuck with what they do in your name/membership even when you disagree. It could be argued the Auto Workers Unions paved the way for the American Automotive situation we now have. The cost seemed to keep going up and the product quality seemed to get worse. It seemed the Unions were helping to create a hugh opening for someone, like the Japanese automotive industry, to fill the void. It's all now history.
What several people seem to be trying to say here is something is wrong with our system. I am in agreement, that something is wrong with our education system.
Over and over I see the MORE MONEY thing and over and over I see student education gettin worse and worse. That this gets laid at the door of parents is not entirely accurate due mainly to the NEA and certain individuals that are involved with it. How can I say this? The information is there. One only need look at it from another viewpoint. The information is there. I see allot of special interest groups, and here I disagree that it is all parental advocate groups, making changes and getting laws past that actually hurt education.
No child left behind? Excuse me... some could and should, at least temporarily, be left behind or put into special classes or a school that is just for them. Oh a Social stigma you say? sorry but if someone choses to not learn or someone has a real problem with learning for some reason IMHO THAT does not create a situation where everyone else must be held back or punished because of it. I'm very very tired of being told it's everyone fault, all must take the blame that little Billy's parents are crack heads. I DON'T THINK SO! What happened to personnel responsibility? What happened to self-governing individuals? I could tell you. You've seen it. Oh so subtle but ... They've been singled out and punished. They've been singled out and shamed and ridiculed before all for being who they are. It SEEMS The State has become the all important, the all knowing, the we will take care of you so shut up, and most sadly the all consuming.
Right now there is NO choice, or very little choice for parents when it comes to education. Right now they HAVE TO PAY for schools they may not want to use. Right now many can not pay for both. And so they have NO CHOICE!
And what I see here is many saying I want a choice! Let's give people a choice!
I do not see remove or destroy public education here! I do see a lets make it better if we can attitude.
Will there be laws made to control private schools? YEP already in the works. Are the politicians reaching for control of home schoolers YOU BET! Happening right now as we give our opinions and say our say. We must do our best for ourselves and our children while we can.
Is the voucher system an answer? The answer? Some think so, some do not. But we have to TRY! And it's already been said WHY.
-
wrag, I know you don't balme the teachers, but Lazs does, and that's why I quoted him.
You make a lot of good points, and in a constructive way.
-
Originally posted by capt. apathy
sure, put them in a public school setting (as they are run now), and anyone would likely have the same results as now.
the teachers should be able to tell the difference between an attack on the system and an attack on teachers. there are some great teachers out there, it's the system that is screwed.
I agree, Capt. But why then don't we focus on fixing what's broken with it?
-School should be year round....agreed.
-Teachers should work year round, earning vacation like everyone else in the private sector does....agreed.
-Teachers should not be represented by a union, and should instead be hired, payed and fired on an individual basis, just like the private sector.....agreed.
If you take the union out of the picture then, who is going to provide the teachers legal representation when they get sued by irate parents, or if they are accused of sexual molestation? Right now, that representation is provided by the NEA. Most teachers I know can't afford that kind of legal representation.
How are we going to solve the problem of overcrowded classrooms? Who's going to pay for it?
Who's going to pay for the increased salaries the teachers should get for working year round?
You were going to increase the teachers salaries to a level on a par with professionals in the private business sector, weren't you?
What do we do with the kids that don't want to learn or don't want to behave in school?
-
I don't blame teachers... I blame the system. My state has one of the highest tax to pupil ratios, but dollars to pupil measured at the classroom is one of the lowest. Adminstrative costs take out a huge bite.
Adminstration costs are way out of hand, and a profit motive would cause an immediate cutting of this overhead.
Why can't one principal handle several (or at least a few)neighborhood grammer schools?
Why can't lower level administrators teach at least half a day?
A profit motive would at least cause these questions to be asked.
-
where did you see me blaming teachers... you guys are about the most sensitive people I have ever seen... guess it comes from never working in the real world eh?
get rid of public school? maybe that was harsh.... get rid of public school as we know it.
banana... private schools work under the same large classrooms as public and with less resources in most cases and INVARIABLY do a beeter job.
kieran... no one accused you of being stupid (that sensitivity thing again no doubt) I do accuse you of overly defending your own self interest. That's fine but.... your self interest conflicts with mine... I want my grand daughter to get a good education. you want to continue with the worst education system in the world so far as bang for the buck goes.
lazs
-
Lazs, private schools don't have a government mandate to educate everyone, so they can cherry pick whom they want to teach. They don't need to worry about special education, they can refuse to educate someone who doesn't want to learn, etc.
Your attempt to compare private schools with public schools is comparing apples to oranges. Private schools have the advantage because they can refuse to educate someone if that person creates a challenge or difficulties to that private school.
-
Originally posted by banana
Private schools have the advantage because they can refuse to educate someone if that person creates a challenge or difficulties to that private school.
You're making a strong case for private schools. If a child is a discipline problem in public school what motivation does the parent have to become involved? For a private school it may only be the trouble of finding another school and perhaps the inconvenience of providing transportation. Still, that may spark more interest in helping their child to do better.
How many public schools still allow corporal punishment? Wanna bet it's allowed and even encouraged by parents far more in private schools? Some of you may think this is a bad thing. You're the ones that I want to take the control from.
-
Well said, banana. Let's see what happens when someone finally sues a private school for denial of entry. School vouchers could make that a difficult thing for private schools to do.
I am not defending bad teachers, unions, or even the status quo. What I am extremely frustrated about is the total absence of any tangible proof that parents see their part in this mess. So far, the sum total of anti-public school posts have merely said "broken; we're leaving".
Sensitive, Lazs? Not really... venting is more like it. This little microcosm is very indicative of the cross-section of people in the country discussing this issue. You have people that are in the process that see the wrong, and you have people outside the process that see the scores. One thing I know for sure, I will never successfully change your mind about the issue. I have discussed nothing unreasonable, factually incorrect, or far-fectched, but somehow you have ignored all that. I could bluntly ask you where you school policies come from, but would you answer?
-
Originally posted by Kieran
I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!
There ya go...feels kinda good, don't it?:)
Actually, the public school my kids attend is one of the top districts in the US...of course the area is well off and the majority of parents are professionals.
Vouchers sound great, however, they will solve nothing in the end. The real problem is with our society as a whole...deep rooted social and moral issues have left adults(and I use that term loosely) ill equiped to be responsible for themselves, much less children.
It's just easy to blame others, in this case teachers. Is the public education system in this country healthy as a whole? Absolutely not...there is so much corrupt administration of resources, misdirected leadership and overall incompetence, nothing short of a complete overhaul will fix it.
Until folks step up and take responsiblility for their own actions, it will only get worse....and guess what? It will not get better in the future.
It took 3000 folks dying in NY for us to be nice to each other...that lasted for about 6 months. The conditions of men's hearts is the real problem...until we begin to take a look in that direction, nothing will improve.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
You're making a strong case for private schools. If a child is a discipline problem in public school what motivation does the parent have to become involved? For a private school it may only be the trouble of finding another school and perhaps the inconvenience of providing transportation. Still, that may spark more interest in helping their child to do better.
How many public schools still allow corporal punishment? Wanna bet it's allowed and even encouraged by parents far more in private schools? Some of you may think this is a bad thing. You're the ones that I want to take the control from.
On the first point, how long before public education becomes the equivalent of the prison system, kind of an "Escape From New York" scenario? If you continue to pull kids into the private schools, refusing to admit the other kids (can you say "lawsuit"?), how do you expect that to improve public schools? You can't, and I don't honestly think you believe it will.
On the second point, don't bet the farm on that one. Public schools got tired of getting sued. Takes a lot of taxpayer money to fight the lawsuits, you know. Private schools can be sued, too. I believe in corporal punishment, so I agree with you there, but in this litigious age it isn't going to happen. There are still a few holdout schools, but they are turning away from corporal punishment in droves.
-
In New York IIRC, the revised system was not a voucher system, but a revamping of the public school system. They created smaller neighborhood schools.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
In New York IIRC, the revised system was not a voucher system, but a revamping of the public school system. They created smaller neighborhood schools.
I could believe that. Consolidation is not always a good thing.
-
On the first point, how long before public education becomes the equivalent of the prison system, kind of an "Escape From New York" scenario? If you continue to pull kids into the private schools, refusing to admit the other kids (can you say "lawsuit"?), how do you expect that to improve public schools? You can't, and I don't honestly think you believe it will.
as long as the reason for tossing kids out of private schools is based on their behavior and not on illeagal(discriminitory) factors then I see no problem.
yes there is a very good chance that if a voucher system is put in place public schools woul end up being a holding pen for those who refuse to take their education seriously. quite possibly a 'halfway-house' on the way into prison.
and teachers who stay in public schools may find their roles changing from educator to more of a prison guard
but my conscern isn't with the welfare of the public school system, the teachers, or even if some kids get left behind. my concern is that any child who is ready and willing to learn having some where to go where that is at least a possability
-
The 4 questions at the bottom of this article are way way way out of line!!!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34523
From my view point the questions appear to be designed to encourage rather then consider. To press for action rather then thought. Seeming Emotional/sexual button pressing at the very time when hormones are running wild and self control can be most difficult. Increasing the risk of STD's etc....
This suggest to me that the special interest group involved is seeking converts, and not giving much thought to most of the individual students, but only to the students that think and feel as they do.
California ?
Figures.
These are the kind of special interest groups that should not have so much clout!
Not sayin they should be ignored, am sayin they have far too much clout.
But am also sayin what I see the politicians doing in CA is what made me leave the state of my birth. They have just gone too far already and it looks as if there is NO END in sight.
One of them actually stood before the others and declared the only right anyone has is to think what they want. No other rights!
How nice, a .. you can think what you want but you will check with us before you do anything, kinda governing?
A Democrat? YEP!
NO i'm neither a Democrat or a Republican!
-
Wrag-
That's exactly the kind of crap that happens to us. I can't stand it, I don't think it has any place in the school, and I can't blame parents for being infuriated. In case anyone doesn't know it, I have two daughters in public schools, I know what it is like to be a parent, too.
Holden-
I'll bite on this one a little...
Why would public education cost more per student?
1. Free/Reduced book rental for families unable to pay fees.
2. Free/Reduced lunch for kids who can't pay for lunches.
3. Before/After school programs for latchkey kids.
4. Transportation of students.
5. Special Education.
6. Vision/Hearing testing.
7. Sports programs.
8. Vocational programs.
9. Intramural programs.
10. Expanded curriculum (think "liberal arts" like in college).
11. Counseling and Psychologists for troubled students.
I'm sure there are many more things I've left out, both dispensible and indespensible. Let's take transportation... in a rural community like ours, transportation alone costs something in the order of $200,000 a year (I happen to know this because the number was given to us as reason why all field trips are cancelled forever). Almost 60% of our student population is on free or reduced lunch. We are forced by law (but not funded for) to offer before and after school care, and serve meals on both ends. Anyway, you get the idea... private schools don't have to deal with the issues I've listed above- yet.
How will the ACLU feel about students being excluded from private schools accepting voucher money?
How will the NAACP feel about minority students rejected from private schools accepting vouchers?
How will private schools deal with equal opportunity provisions in education guaranteed under the 14th amendment and the "Least Restrictive Environment" (LRE) mandate? Will they simply reject disabled students based on...?
Now boys, I hate to say it, but these ARE the hard questions none of you have addressed. Vouchers COULD work if factors like this could be eliminated, but the fact is they cannot be- at least, not yet. You stakeholders better get your butts in gear, because ACLU, NAACP, and Special Education advocates live for the kind of crap private schools are going to have to pull to maintain their superiority.
Notice I haven't even mentioned yet what happens when a regular ed student's parent(s) get upset when their child is held to a standard. And it will happen. Maybe the school will hold their line. Maybe they won't. We'll see. I think Ski had it right earlier though... some of these schools will wish to remain exclusive, and will price the school out of voucher range. A few will be able to get away with that, but doubtful all could. So... changes will come.
There's the concern for the bottom line, and how will it be reached? Will schools do what you think they will, and hire only the best teachers? Or will they do what schools under budget crisis do now- hire the kids right out of school, because they are cost-effective? My bet is they will do what the public schools do, and hire the cheap help. That's economic reality.
Nash spoke of working some advertising for private schools, and suggested we'd be surprised how much. Once again, Ski seems to have hit the mark. Truth in advertising is a myth, as anyone in our hobby should surely know by now.
The strengths of private* schools can be summed up in the following:
1. Focused curriculum
2. Lessened restrictions and mandates
3. Able to eliminate distractive/destructive students
4. Able to eliminate poor performing students (boosts scores, don't it now? ;))
5. Free from educational compromise forced by inclusive curriculums.
These advantages come at the price of not accepting public money. Can these advantages be maintained with public money? Not under current law, at least, not in my state.
*Edit: "Private" for "Public".
-
Regardless of the reason, it is still the responsibility of the parents to insure a proper education for their children.
Parents currently have the right to choose private over public institutions and pay through the nose for it. It would help to have some of the monies collected from property tax etc, currently earmarked for public school funding, follow them to their school of choice.
I am uncomfortable with the idea of the county, state or federal government sending money to a private institution, it's just not a good idea for a number of reasons. Vouchers or tax credits seem to be the easiest way to accomplish this without muddling the division of church and state.
When my kids were age 4 and 5 they attended a private school kindergarden program. Because K4/K5 is not mandatory in this state I was able to pay their tuition using an FSA. Child care is what they called it. Why is that so different than having a tax credit for private school tuition?
Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to send them to a private institution, no matter what it costs. I just won't retire at 55 like I had planned. :D
RazerRFS
-
WOW this guys makes some very serious claims. Just a part of what he says.
Here is a summarized list of the ACLU’s agenda:
· Legalized child pornography
· Tax exemptions for Satanists
· Abortion on demand
· Mandatory sex education
· Ideological tests for court appointees
· Public demonstrations by Nazis and Communists
· Legalized polygamy
· Busing
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/09/11/tedlang.htm
I seem to recall hearing some of this stuff quite some time ago from another source.
That 1st one is disturbing.
Also the writer seems to be tryin to connect the NEA?
The writer claims this info is takin/obtained directly from some portion of the ACLU web site??????
Makes ya wonder if part of it, or all of it, is one of those rumors that just won't die or ........
-
#5 is happening right now. What big question do you think the Dems are asking appointees? How many judges have been blocked in this administration's time?
#6 is legal now.
#3 might as well be legal.
#4 is one step away from being true (in schools).
#8... not sure what you mean by this. WRT school, we've had this a looooong time.
#2 Churches enjoy tax exemptions, so I assume someone claiming a satanistic religion might be able to argue the point.
-
kieran.. it is you not I that refuses to answer.. I have said that it is the buerocracy that makes the decisions for public schools... that and the Unions... things that us as parents have little or no say in... certainly you agree that p[arents have a better chance of affecting private schools policies. You on the other hand have refused to offer any solution to fixing public schools.... you don't want to fix em... you want to drag it on and on until you retire.
It has been shown in test after test that the worst students in the public school system do better under privat schools... the public schools may not refuse admission to anyone but they have reached 100% saturation on dropouts.... they manage to get more people to drop out than anyone would have ever thought possible.... a real, tangible accomplishment of our public school system.
can anyone name any parent in the U.S. that doesn't think public schools are broken?
lazs
-
You on the other hand have refused to offer any solution to fixing public schools.... you don't want to fix em... you want to drag it on and on until you retire.
Well, I submit this is a lie.
Address my points if you dare, you don't, I know.
No one is arguing that currently private schools outperform public schools. No question about that. But what YOU refuse to do is examine WHY that might be, or HOW it might change with public moneys being accepted by the private schools.
If I can exclude anyone that might make my school look bad, I will look very, very good.
If I can expel any student underperforming, my school scores are going to look very, very good.
If I can avoid having to offer "feel-good" programs, I will not waste valuable time and money.
Private schools can do that- for now. They won't legally be able to do that once they take public money. Ignore that point all you like, but it won't change the fact.
Vouchers will not make ACLU, NAACP, NEA, parent advocates, Congress, state governments, and the 14th Amendment go away. That is my argument. You give me... "competition almost always makes business better." Is that all you have?
You are going to have to deal with these institutions directly and definitively. That, sadly, means people will actually have to get off their butts and be politically active. I haven't much hope that will happen either.
Schools will suck if they stay the same. They're gonna suck under vouchers too, for the very same reasons they suck under the status quo. Vouchers don't solve anything really, they attempt to sidestep the issue.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
If I can exclude anyone that might make my school look bad, I will look very, very good.
If I can expel any student underperforming, my school scores are going to look very, very good.
Kieran, you keep saying this and while I admit that it's true that doesn't mean that it happens. Or at least that it happens on a significant scale. You have numbers or are you just speculating?
-
I wish I could see the source studies for this:
http://www.ncpa.org/bothside/krt/krt051701a.html
Many other studies ¾ in New York, Cleveland and Washington, D.C. -- have found that school choice consistently helps children who opt for private schools. But what about students who are left behind?
It turns out that they benefit too. In response to the loss of students, for example, the Milwaukee public school system closed its six worst schools and made improvements in others. Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby has found that this is not uncommon -- quality improves wherever public schools are forced to compete.
We cannot afford to leave low-income children trapped in failing schools. Giving school choice to families who have been priced out of the housing market is an idea whose time has come.
WA state's (failed) voucher proposal did the following: of the 6000 the state spends per student on education, 4000 would be given to the parents in the form of a voucher. If their kid left his school, he'd onlyh take 2/3 of the money with him - acutally INCREASING the moneys per capita within the school he left. And STILL the WEA (washington Education Association) screeched bloody murder.
BB
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Kieran, you keep saying this and while I admit that it's true that doesn't mean that it happens. Or at least that it happens on a significant scale. You have numbers or are you just speculating?
Culver Military Academy would be prime example in our area, and they most certainly have stringent academic and behavioral criterion. You're probably not going to see that many get kicked out, because they (the ones likely to be kicked out) aren't going to be there in the first place. They are by nature and intention exclusionary.
Yes, I am speculating. Would it really matter at all if I can provide numbers? I mean, if I bother to post numbers, would it really change your (or anyone else's) mind? If you feel it happens, what can I prove that you aren't already discounting?
See, that's what's frustrating. On my side I acknowledge private schools currently do a better job than public schools, and then offer reasons why that will change under vouchers. Many people on the other side maintain competition is always better, and private schools will be allowed to continue operating as they currently do. I will be a believer in vouchers the second someone can convince me private schools CAN continue to operate as they currently do while using public money. Simple as that. It won't happen in Indiana, I can tell you that.
As for Lazs's asinine comment (am I just being too sensitive Lazs?), the only problem I would ever have going to the private sector is deciding what to do with the extra money and time.
-
Religious Schools supported or rejected under vouchers? Much discussion…
http://www.claremont.org/writings/precepts/20020703eastman_meese.html
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=9286
“Either religious freedom will be curbed by the state in religious schools if they receive public money, or there will be a danger to civil liberties from a public sanction and subsidy of religious authority. Remember, schooling is required by law of all children. Religious education, wherever it is done, is always a threat to someone’s civil rights if those rights are inconsistent with the religious beliefs or practices. Look at how so many religions have regarded women, free speech, the rights of teachers or students to dissent. There will be serious erosion of the First Amendment if vouchers are permitted, unless the religious schools are forced to change.
In the South today in more than a dozen states private religious schools, mainly Baptist, have sprung up everywhere for millions of white parents who quite deliberately desire to evade racial desegregation. Those schools carefully take in a few selected non-whites, just enough to avoid the charge of racial exclusion, but those schools were clearly designed to avoid the court-ordered desegregation rulings for public schools of the recent past. Unless vouchers take away control over the admission and expulsion practices of private schools, racism and other civil rights violations will be subsidized by taxpayers.
I know that we all like to think that our own faith is a tolerant one, but any religious body that gains or wields political power is dangerous to outsiders to that faith and threatens greater abuse to its own followers because of its increased authority over them that vouchers could provide. Government-subsidized education can promote ethnic and religious intolerance.”
Special Need Students? "Tough!"
http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/vouchers.html
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=1582
• A 1998 report from the U.S. Department of Education found that 85% of large central city private schools surveyed by the U.S. Department of Education would "definitely or probably" not be willing to participate in a voucher program if they were required to accept "students with special needs such as learning disabilities, limited English proficiency, or low achievement."2
• This is corroborated by experiences with the two largest voucher programs. In Cleveland, where the law does not require private schools to accept handicapped students or provide special education,3 voucher school operator David Brennan candidly wrote to Gov. Voinovich that "Numerous scholarship (voucher) recipients were discouraged from taking their scholarships to private schools with the full knowledge that none of the existing private schools will be able to handle a seriously handicapped child." An Ohio Department of Education spokeswoman recently commented that the voucher office didn't expressly discourage applications, but did inform parents that needed services may be unavailable. "Many Catholic schools are not equipped to handle handicapped children or do not offer the services they need," she said.4
• In Milwaukee, the Legislative Audit Bureau's February 2000 audit of the voucher program notes that seven schools-just 8%-reported that they offered special education services.5 Elsewhere the LAB audit noted that the services most likely available are such lower cost services as those for children with speech, language or learning disabilities.6 This prompted the Department of Public Instruction to respond that "This means, in effect, that students with certain disabilities are denied a meaningful alternative to the Milwaukee Public Schools despite the intention of the Choice program to provide this opportunity to all eligible low-income children in the city."7 The audit found 171 voucher students who had been identified by the Milwaukee Public School district as having special education needs. "However," it noted, "the total of special needs pupils in the program is not known because participating schools are not required to identify and report pupils in need of special services or their levels of need."
• Many Milwaukee voucher schools are forthright regarding their inability to accommodate students with special needs.8 For example, Harambee Community School states that it is "unable to service children with a learning disability, physical disability and emotionally disturbed" [sic].9 Emmaus Lutheran states that it cannot serve "CD [Cognitive Disabilities], LD [Learning Disabilities], ED [Emotional Disturbances], [and s]ome types of physically handicapped students."10 Gospel Lutheran "cannot serve wheelchair-bound students."11 Blessed Sacrament writes "We believe that students who are 2-3 years below grade level cannot be realistically brought up to grade level because we do not have a tutorial/learning center to accommodate their needs. Students who have severe emotional or behavioral problems need specific programs to assist them - we do not have a counselor or social worker."12
• In 2001, Wisconsin State Senator Russ Decker (D-Schofield) filed a motion that would have required all Milwaukee private schools participating in the voucher program "to comply with the same statutory requirements as public or charter schools with regard to including pupils with disabilities in statewide and local educational agency-wide assessments…" as well as comply with open records and anti-discrimination laws applicable to public schools. That motion failed to get out of the state's Joint Finance Committee, which makes recommendations on the budget, on a party-line vote.13
• Shortly after this motion failed to get out of the Committee, State Senate Democrats incorporated an anti-discrimination bill authored by Rep. Christine Sinicki into their budget package. If passed, these provisions would have required all schools funded with taxpayer dollars to follow the state's Open Records and Open Meetings Acts and to comply with statutes barring discrimination based on physical, mental, emotional or learning disability, race, gender, disability, religion, national origin, sexual orientation and more.14 "There is plenty of anecdotal evidence from parents whose children were turned away from private schools because they required special education," said Rep. Sinicki. Sinicki's provisions were omitted from the final budget package that was passed by the legislature.15
• In Florida, Gov. Jeb Bush's A+ Plan voucher program has no requirement that students with special needs be accommodated in participating private schools.16 Under the separate, new program providing vouchers for students with disabilities, parents may opt to use a state voucher to place their child in a private school. Participating private schools, however, are not required to accommodate all applicants, nor are they required to hire teachers with special education qualifications of any kind, and - unlike private schools in the A+ Plan voucher program - these schools do not have to accept the state voucher as full payment of tuition, leaving no option for parents who are unable to pay the difference.17
I'm not just talking out my rear end here, guys...
-
Kieren, why aren't you teaching kids to write instead of posting? Isn't school in session now?
Not to be mean, just wondering.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
“Either religious freedom will be curbed by the state in religious schools if they receive public money, or there will be a danger to civil liberties from a public sanction and subsidy of religious authority. Remember, schooling is required by law of all children. Religious education, wherever it is done, is always a threat to someone’s civil rights if those rights are inconsistent with the religious beliefs or practices. Look at how so many religions have regarded women, free speech, the rights of teachers or students to dissent. There will be serious erosion of the First Amendment if vouchers are permitted."
I'm not just talking out my rear end here, guys...
Maybe you aren't but the article you quoted is.
-
Prep period, have some free time. Why aren't you working? ;)
-
Very little.
-
fd ski: I thought they were for everyone, like "all the taxpayers" so that they had a choice with their kids education.
That would be free market.
There are two distinct aspects in this matter. You have coercive confiscation of property from people under threat of violence - collecting taxes to pay for education. Nothing is being done about that.
Then yoou have distribution and disposition of the looted property. That part can be done in a free-market way, even if the collection part remains coercive and there is no reason not to do that.
What you guys are describing is forced equal opprtunity program and being good republicans that you are, you should hate it instead of advocating it.
I cannot speak for good republicans, not being a member, but we, conservatives do not hate equal opprtunity program. What we hate is "equal opprtunity program".
midnight Target: I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?
How do you separate the community from the people you count as members of that community? And who is entitled to evaluate the outcome if you do not rely on the judgement of people immediately affected to do so? Last time I checked, no community ever evolved a collective mind, so it must be some enlightened individual that you have in mind who can make such judgement.
Kieran: You don't believe losing dollars will have an impact on public schools?
Most private schools accessible to people of poor an middle-income neighbourhoods have lower tuition per student than what's spent per student in public schools. Vouchers are always set to lower amount than per-student expense in eny voucher scheme. The more people take vouchers, the more money per pupil will be left in public school system.!
Isn't that what you would want?
So you are going to make the school corporation, with even less dollars, bear the burden of transporting people further and further away. Hmmm....
You would be amased how much efficiencies a private business can discover compared to the government monopoly. My friends' children attend private schools in Brooklyn that charge way less that public per-pupil expense and manage to bus children no problem while still staying profitable.
Since the government took over local schooling around 1940, black illiteracy has doubled and white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much relative money on schooling as we did before 1940. Today (2003), 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. In 1940, 20 percent of blacks and 4 percent of whites were illiterate. This isn't the Land of the Free, it's the Land of the Ignorant.
miko
-
midnight Target: I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?
How do you separate the community from the people you count as members of that community? And who is entitled to evaluate the outcome if you do not rely on the judgement of people immediately affected to do so? Last time I checked, no community ever evolved a collective mind, so it must be some enlightened individual that you have in mind who can make such judgement.
So you don't know of any voucher systems that have worked.
Got it.
-
midnight Target: So you don't know of any voucher systems that have worked.
Got it.
Same lying "false assumption by dropping the context" method of argument that I come to expect of you.
First, I did read about several successfull experiments with vouchers. Not being in education business, I did not feel it necessary to memorise them so that I could cite them on a moment's notice. I have enough work memorising hard data related to my area of expertise.
Nevertheless, if I came home from my office and looked up my rederences, I would not have any problem presenting them.
Second. I did not try to argue on the merits of perticular anecdotal cases which can be misinterpreted any which way by the likes of you. Surely, if I did not present multi-page description of the method of the study, you would just claim that the details I did not mention were not done. And if I did spend hours typing all the details, you would just ignore the post and waste my time.
I wanted to make my case on purely theoretic basis. That's all. If I cannot provide exactly what you wanted, so what? I am not obliged to do you legwork for you.
Certainly, if you realy cared to learn about such studies, you would not have a problem firing your google and looking them up or at least the references to them. It's not lik ethere is scarcity of voucher debate on teh Internet.
miko
-
Glad to help you practice your English miko... keep up the text walls of work.
-
nice dodge kieran... you say that I am assinine in my assertion that you just want things to stay the same till you retire but.... you still refuse to say how you would "fix" the unfixable... public schools..
you cite a friggin military academy as your example of exclusion in private schools sheesh... next you will use trade schools (the accountant school is exclusionary to those who never took math)... military academy ferchrissakes!
No... by keeping the dregs and coddling them the public schools have figgured out how to ruin it for everyone... plus... as a bonus... they still manage to drop out as many kids as is humanly possible while providing sub standard education at priemium costs. More kids who start in private schools finish than with public schools... plus.... if you finish the 8th grade in private school you can drop pout and outperform a 12th grader in public school anyway.
to summarize.... you don't believe that there is anything wrong with public schools and they are as good as they can get (given the circumstances) with the possible exceptions that they could sure use more money and time off for "overworked" teachers. you feel that your best arguement against the better performing private sector is to attack and use fear of religion or fear of exclussion even tho those things happen less in private than public schools (more religious controversy and higher dropouts in public schools).
I wonder who you think you are helping? Maybe you can teel me? do you think that by teaching in public schools you are rescuing more or less problem kids than private? if you were honest you would say less. Is your finished product better or worse than private schools? if you were honest...
lazs
-
Lazs, the english language only has so many words.
I know there isn't a shred of hope you can be convinced I am saying other than what you think I am, but what the heck, I'll try...
I will be 100% for vouchers when you or anyone else can prove to me:
1. the federal and state governments won't immediately slap mandates on these schools that in effect turn them into the new public schools;
2. these schools won't practice the type of exclusionary behavior that is precisely against the purpose of vouchers
It would be supreme irony if your granddaughter took her voucher and was rejected by every private school she attempted to enter- naw, that couldn't happen. Well, so long as she doesn't have any type of academic underperformance, learning diability, behavioral disorder, physical disability, criminal record, etc. Where would she go then, hmm? ;)
By the way, there is nothing wrong with a military academy analogy, because they are private schools. I could have as easily discussed the local parochial schools that have similarly stringent behavioral and academic (in addition to religious) restrictions.
If you consider the two points I've made, you will also see they are in direct conflict. I don't see how one can be resolved without excluding the other.
-
so you are saying that it is a bad idea to have vouchers cause there is a possibility that the private schools will suddenly become just as bad as the public schools are now?
You seem to be admitting that there is no hope for public schools and saying that we should just take it. I mean... after all... if even private schools can't fix education.... why bother to do anything? Let's all just drop the subject so kieran can go back to his nice cozy womb of academia and unions.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
so you are saying that it is a bad idea to have vouchers cause there is a possibility that the private schools will suddenly become just as bad as the public schools are now?
You seem to be admitting that there is no hope for public schools and saying that we should just take it. I mean... after all... if even private schools can't fix education.... why bother to do anything? Let's all just drop the subject so kieran can go back to his nice cozy womb of academia and unions.
lazs
Lazs, Lazs, Lazs...
A) I am not a union member
B) You cannot prove vouchers will work better than the current system (after federal and state mandates kick in)
C) I am not "admitting" anything, at least, not anymore than you are admitting vouchers can't work the way you think they will.
You seem to think the burden of proof lies with me... and worse, won't think about anything I have posted. If I have to prove how public schools can be fixed, at the very least YOU should prove how vouchers won't wind you up in the very same place, OR WORSE in a few years time. Seems fair to me.
All I have really attempted to point out all along is you fellows who believe vouchers are going to save education don't understand the whole picture, especially with regards to educational law. Your vouchers will remove the single most important advantage of private schools- exclusion. Once they can no longer exclude students they will become defacto public schools. What are you gonna do when the government forces your "private" school to take special education students, or won't allow your school to kick out underperformers or behavioral problems? Move to another "private" school? Good luck, the rules will be the same when you get there, too.
There it is in a nutshell. Until you can lobby enough votes in Congress to do away with a fair amount of student civil rights and re-interpret the 14th Amendment you are going to inevitably wind up with the same situation you are in now, because legally nothing else can happen. Don't take my word for it (as if!) look it up yourself. Look at "No Child Left Behind" legislation, or "Least Restrictive Environment" mandates. Do a combo search for "exclusion" and "students" and see what you find. Do another search for "schools" and "state money" and "restrictions"... use your imagination. You're going to see I'm right.
That's my argument. Now yours is "competition is good"... fine, but that competition has legal guidelines. Federal and state involvement is going to level the playing field, but not in the way you desire or intend. Prove me wrong though, I am always willing to admit I am wrong.
-
ummmm, kieran - why would new mandates kick in?
Check your GI bill - does the government force universities to do ungodly amounts of x,y or z because government money is paying for education at any number of private, public, religious, trade, technical, etc etc schools? It sure doesn't look like it from a moderately quick perusal of the GI Bill website: http://www.gibill.va.gov/
While I'm not sure exactly how the GI bill works, I do know that all colleges certainly are not exclusionary. If you got the money, and the grades, they'll take you. Hell, even if you don't have the grades, if you've got the money, they'll work with you on the grades thing. Sure, some are more picky than others, but that's always been true. Has it hurt our university educational system?
I do agree that the danger for government meddling is there, but IIRC there have been court cases where the precedent was set that if the fedgov gave money/voucher to parents, and parents give money/voucher to x,y or z organization/school/etc - then it is not the same as fedgove giving money to organization, and cannot be seen as "supporting" said organization.
...hold on, searching....
AHA (thank god for google - http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/voucher_report/Box171.shtml http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/scotus_vouchers020627.html )
Apparently only one case so far. Now - state constitutions can cause their own roadblocks (google for florida voucher program for details) but that is a state by state issue, and what may be true for your state, kieran, may not be for the others.
BB
-
Where the G.I. Bill is concerned a vet can run into some problems. Not all schools are approved. There are some issues but they tend to be addressed by G.I./Veterans organizations more then the Fed Gov.
-
Wrag-
It will become an issue because parents, particularly parents of disabled kids, will be able to successfully argue exclusion of their children is unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. It has already happened in public schools, it will happen in private schools too if voucher money is used by a private school. The angle is the disabled students would be disallowed an educational opportunity offered to regular ed students. Bet your bottom dollar on it. And when THAT happens, many more mandates will immediately follow to ensure they are handled properly, their needs are met, etc.
The links I posted upthread cite private schools that have stated they have no intention to serve special ed students. We'll see, but about their only choice is to opt out of the voucher program at that point.
Yes, states will decide for themselves, but most states already have rules for public schools that are pretty much in line with one another, right? What are the odds the states will do the same to private schools once they receive state money? Pretty good, I'd say.
-
Youi can't prove that the government will mandate all these programs once they realize how badly they have screwed up... so badly that parents will have effectively given them a vote of no confidence by rejecting their idea of schooling (public schools).. it would be political suicide to change private schools. At least at first.
Your arguement that there is a possibility that if we dump the useless public school system that maybe... just maybe.. the private schools will end up as bad? not good enough... they certainly won't end up with 67% administration. I doubt that they will close for 6 months of the year and leave the facility and teachers fallow. I think government would be hard pressed to explain why they needed some of the worse programs mandated to private schools that were doing great before.
lazs
-
Lazs, it's GUARANTEED to happen because of existing legislation AND the 14th Amendment. Add to that almost certain civil lawsuits from excluded families and you have it. That's the point, Lazs... you aren't solving the root problem by leaving. It WILL follow you.
I am not against vouchers in concept; I simply feel they aren't going to make things better.
-
you could be right. things may not get better (at least not perminantly) with vouchers. but they deffinatly aren't improving as it is now.
every thing they do to make things better just screws it up worse. every time we go through an economic upswing, schools use the extra cash to set up stupid little pet-projects, these things are the last thing cut when money gets tight again.
our kids are being held hostage for the money. when we say we can't afford any more and they will just have to do with less (which is what we do. since taxes are based on a % of income the reason you don't have as much school funding is that the parents are broke), the schools don't try to do a good job with less.
they make sure every dollar they feel cheated out of costs us dearly. a lot like extortion.
for example, this last school year we had this huge budget mess. threats of closing schools early if we don't vote to raise taxes. shortened school year (longer vacations and the like)
the local middle schools plays a movie for the kids every other friday for a couple hours (usually something that is fairly new to video, not educational). movie day was not cut when days where being cut from the school year.
they days imediatly before 'winter vacation', spring break, and other holidays. no homwork is given and no real teaching done before vacattions because 'the kids have their minds on their plans' (possably because the teacher isn't teaching that day freeing up thir minds to wander), and they don't want to load them down on the first day back to allow them to 're adjust', a reasonable system would have seen wasted days as the places to make the cuts. instead it was the 'meat' of the years that was cut, all the frivolous stuff was kept, just the actuall learning was removed.
as yet another example of the stupid things our schools do. during this time my daughters class took a "feild trip" upto the snowbunny ski area, to go tubing.
yes the individual parents had to pay for tube rental. but our tax dollars payed for a school bus and driver, and the teachers pay for the day. when I went to school feild trips included OMSI (oregon museum of science and industry), art museums, natural history museums, zoo, forestry center, or a local company where we could learn something. if I want my kid to go play in the snow, I'll take her. if the teacher wants to go play in the snow she has plenty of days off to do that (not many people get a part time job that pays full time benefits)
but worst of all when we are staring down the barrle of a shortened school year they wasted a day they could have been teaching. as it is, the school year is something like 15% of the days we went 20 years ago. with many more half days, and teacher planing days (I guess they're planning what to do with all this free time).
-
You'll get no argument from me concerning wasted tax dollars; I see it too.
Our school does no field trips at all. Nada.
We don't allow the viewing of any videos that are not directly educational in nature. If you can't link it to what you are learning, you aren't watching it.
We go the full 182 days regardless of budget. We'll just do with fewer teachers if push comes to shove.
Day before vacation... that's tough. As a teacher, you try to plan to end things (chapters, projects) about that time. Timing is critical though, and you can land a day early. Introducing a new concept the day before vacation is ok (and what I do), but you do so with the full knowledge you are going to start all over again the day school resumes. Homework over vacation is almost impossible to get, because kids simply won't do it. Then you have to fight with parents that go to the school board because you assigned homework over a vacation. I'm not kidding.
Little thing going on with me right now... I have a parent threatening to sue my school... seems she felt "threatened" when I told her continual tardies were going to land her daughter in some serious trouble if they continue. I figured after the girl was tardy 8 out of 10 days it would be a good idea to let mom know what our policies are regarding tardiness and truancy. So, a call from a concerned teacher might very well lead to a lawsuit from a parent more concerned her daughter might be punished than her daughter following school rules everyone else must follow. It's exactly parents like this who remove the teacher's ability to discipline; schools, public or private, cannot afford to continuously fight frivolous lawsuits.
These are the kind of people I am talking about bringing their problems with them when they exercise their rights to use vouchers. Private schools won't be able to just kick them out, either. I don't have an answer for that one, I just don't.
-
when I was in school 8 tardys would have already been 2 days of after school detention and only one more needed to make it 3. I can't remember if it was 3rd or 4th after-school detentions that also came with a day of in-school suspention.
I don't see where they have any grounds for a lawsuit at all. I doubt she could find a lawyer. I get so sick of these people that think that their being upset is grounds for a lawsuit.
maybe you should do a collum in the school paper. sort of a curent events theme, "people who have threatened to sue your school this week and why", although somebody would probably threaten to sue you over being put on that list too.