Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: B17Skull12 on September 05, 2003, 07:47:31 PM
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HO was a perfectly valid WW2 tatic wasn't it? i was in a seafire defending a cv we had in the south. i was at an alt disadvantage to everyone they were diving so i would just HO them. over channel 1.all i hear is whning about it.whine here whine there whine here. BAH!so i have a spit dive on my 6 when is 3k away i flip around and HO him. i get his engine smoking. then he starts whining over channel 1 that i HOed him. and he has 5 kills to. i am getting gang by the whole bish mafia at this time and he is still whining. i die he is still flying. "Bulzeye:im still flying your not" BS you will flying for long. WTF do you expect me to do when im at almost ever disadvantage to you. and when you lose a HO dont whine. whining just makes you seem like a fool IMO.
skull12
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a kills a kill. Takes two to HO. Easily avoided with SA.
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HOing shows a complete lack of skill imo. Only time i deliberately go for it - is if im protecting a goon, i am clearing vulchers from a capped base or i am critically damaged.
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IMHO HO'ed is perfectly fine. I mean if you cant use HO's againts ppl with alot of alt advantage and speed...what else are you supposed to do? That person will most likely BnZ you to death...and all you can do is go into defensive maneouvering?? As skull said....it takes two to head on....if someone is diving on you and i can...i will go head on with them..specially if im in a turner because it is unlikely he will blow so much speed to let me catch up.As far as i know in the Pacific Theater Pilots used headons againts the zero....obviously they could not turn them so they BnZ them and go head on....so i dont see why people whine so much about it. If you are diving on someone...and u see their Nose go up to you....its just as easy to avoid just pull up or turn away....
My 5 cents
FBJavier
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Its like talking about the weather or traffic.. people just like to do it.
I think it is an AirWarrior leftover, but im not sure.
Someone descibed the MA as consisting of 75% Obsessive Compulsives. Talking about HO is just one the compulsions.
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#1 - aw h.o.'s were neutered so it isn't an aw leftover...it was a waste of ammo; and yes, it was a perfectly real tactic - the later us planes had significant advantage in pacific; R.S. Johnson did it too -- a clean shot with 8 .50's was a clean shot with 8 .50's. HO shots are quite easy to evade, unless you are just whipped out of e; then, well, h.o., tail-on, side-on, etc.
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I believe in the europe head ons weren't in real life so common... so the HO's might be disillusive for those who likes it more real than who-cares-just-go-in-and-kill-yourself-quake.
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Originally posted by Furball
HOing shows a complete lack of skill imo. Only time i deliberately go for it - is if im protecting a goon, i am clearing vulchers from a capped base or i am critically damaged.
What else do you do in the Main Arena?
If I HO'ed, everytime you claim to HO, Well that would be damn near close to every sortie I fly. ;)
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i understand why a plane in a disadvantage HOs
what i dont get is when the con is about 5Ks above you and decides to give it all up to HO, it just frustrating :(
i found it easy to avoid HOs and i usually kill the con who try to HO me with a good lead turn that gives me all i need to win the fight (and then call him a HO dweeb:D )
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Head-ons even the score: if accepted they give both a/c a good chance of downing the other. Therefore accept HO when you are at a real disadvantage but avoid them when you have an advantage.
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Originally posted by Virage
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Someone descibed the MA as consisting of 75% Obsessive Compulsives. Talking about HO is just one the compulsions.
Hehe, that's good. The other 25% aren't exactly stable either.
I think people complain about HO's only if they lose. Personally I think it's perfectly valid - just a bit ugly.
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Originally posted by bockko
#1 - aw h.o.'s were neutered ...
#2 - see #1.
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A H.O. is the finest act a fighter pile-it can perform next to killing a guy in his chute. Anyone who disagrees is a communist.
SOB
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Those who whine about Ho's are almost always the ones who lose. They are also the ones who whine about spit/lala whaterver.. "dweebs" when they lose to them too. The common factor is that for some reason some folks would rather announce to a few hundred people they don't kow what immature losers they are than shut up and not put themselves in that position.
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If you turn before the merge to grab an advantage, you can't be HO'd. Actually, you'd pry win with wacky ACM, so Shaw claims. I believe it.
Of course he never flew a 190A8 or a Il-2 in base defense, so he pry lied to sell books.
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I usually only whine when they extend then come back in HO. Extend then come back for HO. Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO.Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO.Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO.Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO. Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO.Extend come back for HO. Extend and come back for HO. Extend and comeback for HO.
See isn't that annoying to you as well?
:)
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My Yucca plant is coming along nicely. Loves the sun from the window. Doesnt like to be watered much.
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Can you post a pic of it SunKing?
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That's nice SUNKING lol.
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Yeah, that was kinda funny :D
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
HO was a perfectly valid WW2 tatic wasn't it? i was in a seafire defending a cv we had in the south. i was at an alt disadvantage to everyone they were diving so i would just HO them. over channel 1.all i hear is whning about it.whine here whine there whine here. BAH!so i have a spit dive on my 6 when is 3k away i flip around and HO him. i get his engine smoking. then he starts whining over channel 1 that i HOed him. and he has 5 kills to. i am getting gang by the whole bish mafia at this time and he is still whining. i die he is still flying. "Bulzeye:im still flying your not" BS you will flying for long. WTF do you expect me to do when im at almost ever disadvantage to you. and when you lose a HO dont whine. whining just makes you seem like a fool IMO.
skull12
As Furball said, maneuvering for the HO shot is usually an indicator of a lack of any type of skill. If you have to use a tactic where the success rate is less than 50%, then you really need to visit with a trainer or maybe think about playing another game like Bunny Love.
You'll have far more success and maybe even get more than a kill or two if you learn and use a little ACM.
ack-ack
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Do you ever visit H2H arenas Ack-Ack ?
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As Furball said, maneuvering for the HO shot is usually an indicator of a lack of any type of skill.
If the HOers have a lack of skill, why do so many people get upset about HOers?
I agree and think HOer are and easy kill, they give up all their angles for that one shot. Take advantage of it. People who don't know how should quit complaining and, get training. (oohh that rimes :) )
Gunner
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
HO was a perfectly valid WW2 tatic wasn't it?skull12
Yeah...perhaps by some poor SOB Bf109 pilot who had his squadron reduced to flaming wrecks by a flight of B-17's, along with their' P-51 canopy.
It was a "last resort" for those who were foolish enough to give it a shot. Better buff up on your WW2 air combat history, Skull.
DmdMax
The Damned MKXX
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Originally posted by DMax
Yeah...perhaps by some poor SOB Bf109 pilot who had his squadron reduced to flaming wrecks by a flight of B-17's, along with their' P-51 canopy.
It was a "last resort" for those who were foolish enough to give it a shot. Better buff up on your WW2 air combat history, Skull.
DmdMax
The Damned MKXX
to my understanging in pacific theater during the early stage of the war it was a perfectly valid tatic to HO and ram! the japanese planes were made out of some weak material i dont remeber so i just call it cardboard. our metal planes would just silce through wing of the enemy planes and only lose a little bit of it's wing.
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Originally posted by DMax
Yeah...perhaps by some poor SOB Bf109 pilot who had his squadron reduced to flaming wrecks by a flight of B-17's, along with their' P-51 canopy.
It was a "last resort" for those who were foolish enough to give it a shot. Better buff up on your WW2 air combat history, Skull.
Actually, until the introduction of the Bendix chin turret in the later F models, head-on attacks against bombers were preferred by the Luftwaffe, as they got you through the bomber formation faster, and the firepower of the B-17 straight ahead was much less than from any other angle. The two .50s in the chin turret changed the equation, making it less attractive, but the head-on attack was still a viable tactic, particularly with the shift to larger-caliber cannon in the Luftwaffe interceptors.
Fighter vs. fighter, it was another story, but the fighters designated to attack the bombers would normally ignore the escort fighters as much as possible, relying on their fighter cover to keep the escorts off them.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
to my understanging in pacific theater during the early stage of the war it was a perfectly valid tatic to HO and ram! the japanese planes were made out of some weak material i dont remeber so i just call it cardboard. our metal planes would just silce through wing of the enemy planes and only lose a little bit of it's wing.
You REALLY need to read up on your WWII aviation history.
Yes, HOs against the Japanese aircraft were reasonably common. No, the Japanese aircraft were not made out of anything abnormaly weak. Actually the Japanese aluminium alloy was stronger pound for pound than what we were using.
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because HO-s are normally used by people who are about to getthere arsed whooped severely and thats the only way out
i do it to if i know the chance of me surviving without it is under 30%...ill take my chances with the HO
not that there hard to avoid...couple rolls untill your 250 out and a few well aimed shots to the tail section and you win...
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If there is an AW connection to the 'whining" I think it has to do with how it was hammered home again and again about what a classless move it was to head on shoot in that game.
As one who has only been flying AH for about a month now having finally found the desire to fly again, I find that old theme is still stuck in my head. I grit my teeth and keep my mouth shut when someone gets the head on shot in on me, but I'm having to relearn the 'rules' as in this case it is different in AH.
I still can't bring myself to pull the trigger in a head on, but I'm working damn hard to avoid getting blasted as it seems to be the preferred tactic of many in AH. Not that my ACM skills have ever amounted to much :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
to my understanging in pacific theater during the early stage of the war it was a perfectly valid tatic to HO and ram! the japanese planes were made out of some weak material i dont remeber so i just call it cardboard. our metal planes would just silce through wing of the enemy planes and only lose a little bit of it's wing.
OUCH OUCH OUCH!
I just lost IQ points.
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If you have a good turning plane and you ho then you are not doing things right. If you have an energy fighter and you are fighting a turn fighter and you ho then you used your shooting skill against your enemies and that sounds like a pretty fair fight compared to giving him no chance at all. He doesnt have to agree to ho. If you want to ho me go ahead I love it and I will ho you back everytime.
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Originally posted by Karnak
You REALLY need to read up on your WWII aviation history.
Yes, HOs against the Japanese aircraft were reasonably common. No, the Japanese aircraft were not made out of anything abnormaly weak. Actually the Japanese aluminium alloy was stronger pound for pound than what we were using.
I DID NOT HAVE 4 YEARS OF COLLEGE ON WW2 LIKE ALL OF YOU DID! so i do not quite know everything!
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If there is an AW connection to the 'whining" I think it has to do with how it was hammered home again and again about what a classless move it was to head on shoot in that game.
Guppy, I think your right. AH had no collisions, so headons were a problem. It was solved by eliminating HO shots, and shaming people when they do it. I still have that hesitation to shoot. In this game, when the enemy is in front of the guns, shoot. I think this is carried over by the old AW crowd, myself included.
A headon merge in AH was a safe move. There was no chance of collision, little chance of getting shot (except for centerline guns). In AH a headon pass will kill you. It adds another factor to the game, and I like it.
Gunner
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Atleast when they go for the HO on initial merge no matter what other options may be available to them. It immediately tells you, your not up against anyone with any skill.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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A HO in AH is simply impossible unless 2 pilots agree on it. Fact.
Don't hate me because I'm right, just sack the next fool in the BBS that doesn't know better. Eventually it will die out like chute killing whines. (kinda miss those)
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I don't think HO were so common in ww2, .... its a 50% lottery on your life ..so...maybe pilots were avoiding them....
If you had a 5 min stop flying, in AH , every time you are dead, would you still use HOs as you say??:D
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
to my understanging in pacific theater during the early stage of the war it was a perfectly valid tatic to HO and ram!
Tell ya what Skull, next time yer flying a Spit14, go a-rammin' and a ho-n'. Post the results :)
DmdMax
Damned MKXX
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Originally posted by DMax
Tell ya what Skull, next time yer flying a Spit14, go a-rammin' and a ho-n'. Post the results :)
DmdMax
Damned MKXX
Max is leading you astray here: the Me262 is much better at ramming: it has that sharp, sharklike nose and no prop to get in the way.
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Originally posted by Creamo
A HO in AH is simply impossible unless 2 pilots agree on it. Fact.
Hmmm yeah, cause if I evade your wild spraying HO attempt you get to call it a high deflection shot if you get a lucky hit! lol, takes 2, right
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Originally posted by SOB
A H.O. is the finest act a fighter pile-it can perform next to killing a guy in his chute. Anyone who disagrees is a communist.
SOB
Where does vultching a P-40 in a 262 while there's 10 other targets in the air to engage?
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It takes 2 to HO and if you think any different, you're a crappy pilot.
I died from a HO once about a month ago and before that it was several months before I died in a HO. That's about 1 deadth from a HO in a few hundred hours in a fighter. Plus, the time I got shot down I could have avoided it without loosing much E so it was my fault.
send comments to /dev/null
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Do you ever visit H2H arenas Ack-Ack ?
I figure since I pay to play, I might as well get my moneys worth instead of hanging out with free loaders.
ack-ack
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IMO it does take two to HO..........and it is a lottery as to which one survives (if either).
Quite often what is a HO to one can be a forward canopy shot to another (even was so in AW).
If your disadvantaged in an angles fight you are constantly trying to reduce separation whilst causing your opponent to make more e sapping manouvers than you.
This means you are constantly crossing his plain of flight.
The less skilled of us (and I count myself amongst them) lose the 3D picture and fight in 2D........... (because the wrong diagonal manouver puts him on your hi/low 6 instead of 12)..........in 2D he ends up merging dead 12 and the HO is risked.
This infact mirrors WWII very well.
IL-16's on the Russian front were totally out classed by the 109E and 109F..........
They could always turn inside the messers but never gain separation or disengage............hence to survive they were forced into a maniacal combat of chicken or be shot down trying to escape.
There are many stories of 109's disengaging from IL-16's thru fear of being rammed head on.
In particular during the initial battles for the Crimea the LW pilots were concerned over the apparantly suicidal tactics of their poorly equiped VVS adversaries.
They had been acustomed to total dominance of the battle and suddenly found that some VVS were willing to trade lives 1 for 1.
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I used to never HO....nowdays, folks won't stay and fight, sooo....
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After engaging in a number of daytime players (names witheld but the tactics should sound familiar), I've developed an interpretation of their dicta, simply by being shot in the face by them as I make my downhill attack run. Think of it as the Hand Dicta because it has five points, just like the fingers of your hand:
Dicta One: Always select a N1K2. It is the only Japanese airplane with four 20mm cannons and a good turn radius.
Dicta Two: Always press for the head-on assault. It is much preferable to aim with your guns than with your tail. If the enemy comes at you from any other direction than straight ahead, you should reduce your throttle and turn sharply into his attack so that you can use your four 20mm to outgun him. You do not need skill for this attack, so it is easy to learn.
Dicta Three: Do not engage in high-speed escapes. It is much better to follow Dicta Two instead.
Dicta Four: To engage attacks against ground vehicle, add bombs to your N1K2 and drop them on your target first, then you can strafe with your four 20mm cannons if you miss with your bombs.
Dicta Five: Play for the country with the greatest number of players and always patrol with at least 4 other players so that they can assist you by being the bait for the enemy attacks. Then, they can cover your escape while you land your victories. Do not worry about your teammates. You can get new ones. That is why you play for the country with the greatest number of players. Your wingmen are expendable.
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
quit complaining and, get training.
I like that one Gunner!!! I think Im going to use it!
BTW its AW not AH in your post ;)
I seldom get involved in Head Ons... I do think you can avoid most of them. Iv been hit HO a few times where I didnt realise it.
Once I was closing on what I thought was the 6 of an enemy and then suddenly the closure was too fast and I end up not only in a HO, but clipping a wing or tail. It was either bad judgment on my part or a bit of a warp.
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Definition of HO shot is a follows:
You died = HO
The other guy died = I did a Snapshot with lead turn !! I was under ya !! You dove into me!!, I reversed on ya!!., My Net Stat looks fine !!,
Cry me a river !!, Well don't turn into me if ya wanna live !!...etc...
NwBie
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What really irritates me is the people that systematically go for the HO over'n over during a fight, no matter who has the advantage, no matter the gun pack of the enemy, they are focused only in the HO. This is even more ridiculous when they look for the HO comming from below, these avid to stall their planes just trying to HO a diving enemy, even knowing that due their very lo speed they are the only ones that can't evade these HOs.
But the really funny ones are those saying that HO demostrates a total lack of skill while being that the only "intelligent" move they know.