Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on August 10, 2000, 06:27:00 PM
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Hi
I am thinking of getting into this game and I downloaded it yesterday. Been flying around offline practicing with the different planes and generally having fun learing a new FM and such. But reading some of the posts and watching some of the films on the websites has got me worried about the realism of this sim. First some things like using B17 to run down fighters by diving on them. Well thats utter crap. I have some pages from B17 pilots manuals and it says that the MAXIMUM allowed diving speed without some special elevator modifications is 220MPH. That wont catch anything. Then I read a post about B-17 doing 320 mph at something like 25000. If they were really that fast in combat conditions then not a single one would ever have been lost in the whole war. Then there is the issue of gun ranges. I saw a video of an AH FW190 firing at a target 1.2K away and get killing hits. Then I read of confiremd 50cal kills out to 1.8K. Damn with such veritable death rays available to us its a wonder that guided missles were ever invented. Does the game model dropping velocity of the bullets? Does it model bullet balistics? Dispersion? Sure dont seem like it. Nearly every Ace's account I ever read stated one thing clearly come in close before firing. These pilots who are 100 times better in fighting than any of us never shot down anyone at such ridiculous ranges. The only time I ever heard of a kill at so long range was during the korean war. The reason? They were at 45000 feet in the thin air which didnt impart as much drag on the 50 cal. The guys wingman was a ww2 corsair ace who thought the guy was stupid for opening fire at such ranges, as he said he never fired the corsairs guns at more than a few hundred or so at the normal combat altitudes of ww2. Sorry if this looks like bashing of a game I still dont know well, but if what your posts said and the videos showed is true, it is a serious realism issue. I like the game a lot so far but if the guns are really like that I wonder if my $30 a month could be better spent. Flame me if you wish. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) However Id really appreciate some good commentary from the pilots here on how these issues really work out and affect gameplay. Again I dont mean to be overly critical but these issues concern me regarding realism.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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<the sly vadr-fish swims up, sniffs the bait, and then flashes away into the gloomy deep> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lol vadr.
I was ----->this<---- close to takin' a nibble too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vadr, ya beat me to it. The sly thing is that it is a "LW" poster.
So is this a double troll?
Cute if it is.
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Hi
What?
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heeehe,
Well Grunherz, ya got 2 free weeks online.
Come check it out!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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GRUNHERZ,
best way for you to find out if it meets your requirements is to use the free two week trial period and have a go at it.
<sniffs bait, hisses folds ears down, turns around and kicks dirt onto bait and walks away, tail twitching>
Sisu
-Karnak
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Hi
I will in a week or two once I get the feel of the FM and the new view system. I just want some opinions from you experienced guys if this is a real problem.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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It is not even close to what we call realistic; pilots I kill respawn and go to the skies again. I tried really to kill someone, but they refuse to die. So it is not realistic.
Fariz
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Hi
I will in a week or two once I get the feel of the FM and the new view system. I just want some opinions from you experienced guys if this is a real problem.
thanks GRUNHERZ
If you will need some help message me while online or mail me to fariz@crosswinds.net
and we will set some time for a training session. You can also log to Training Arena and ask for a trainer.
(http://www.warriormage.com/legion/graphix/trainers_logo.gif)
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Yah live and learn... or yah don't live long.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hi
LOL You dont have to tell me about respawns I mostly flew EAW and Janes WW2 Fighters the respawn king of them all. Im looking for something much more realistc so WW2 airplane guns that are apperently accurate and lethal out to 1.8K have me worried.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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you know guys.....he *does* have a point.
Swoop
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Hi
LOL You dont have to tell me about respawns I mostly flew EAW and Janes WW2 Fighters the respawn king of them all. Im looking for something much more realistc so WW2 airplane guns that are apperently accurate and lethal out to 1.8K have me worried.
thanks GRUNHERZ
Once I got 109 at 1.2k with a single burst of .50. Even more that that, I had only 4 .50 left in my spit. So what? It is what may happen in reality too, though probability is very low. It is low in AH too. Normally expirienced AH pilots do not open till 250-300ft. At the moment you would not find sym where so many details are simulated. If you are looking for a realism you will find more of it here than in any WWII fighters game.
Fariz
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--> Mav, Looks at swoop shakes head and walks up to bait. Looks at bait, pulls out .40 Glock and BLASTS bait to bits.
Looks at swoop, shakes head and walks away. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-10-2000).]
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But if he wears a hat, no one will notice it, Swoop.
Here, I'm a sucker for a flashy lure, I'll try and help the gentleman.
The gunnery has dispersion, drop, etc. modeled, but it is still possible to get kills at extreme range. Why? the big bellybutton neon sign over your enemies head allows you much more lee-way in aiming, and the barrels do not heat up and jam, warp, etc..
There was NO pilot in W.W.II that had anywhere near the experience that the pilots in AH have. They just did not fly at an operational tempo that is possible within the fantasy world of AH.
There were many instances of pilots getting long range kills in W.W.II, just read a bit more and you can find and anecdote to back up anything you want.
The operations manuals for ANY airplane errs on the side of safety; as an example the Russians were allowed to loop the B25, whereas it was forbidden for US pilots to do so.
Lesse, what did I leave out...Oh yeah, the speed issue. Indicated Vs actual.
Next!
Lizking
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HI
You got a good point there but 1.8K is beyond reasonable the bullets would be way too slow and spread out to kill, and the way people post about this issue in the forum it seems that it is a bit more than a freak accurance.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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you probably see some old films now in 190 is hard to kill something even about 500 y but anyway watch out for hog _c they still kiling around 1.0 and ya the buufs , flying DeadStars (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Im no expert on the subject, but I think what you are talking about Grun, is the 50's on the B17 or 26.
Theres a rumor they are too affective at long range. Ive never been hit from more than 1.5 or more, while trailing a bomber. So like I said, Im no expert on the subject. I think Lag my have played some tricks in some cases, good gunnery with 6 50's (somtimes) spraying at a fairly stationary target moving towards you at 1.5 or less will score some hits. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Camel (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Well, .50's are lethal to 7 km, but whether anyone can hit a plane sized target at that range with any accuracy is another story!
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Hi
Some of it was about the B-17 guns and I also saw some posts about a corsair havig very long killing range. Im focusing on this because in my previos and less realistic sims many of the guns were way overmodeled in kill effect and range. For example it was possible for a spifire to shoot down an E/A using only its 4x7.62mm at enormous distances at ground level where air density is highest. Those tiny little bullets sere kept lots of energy in that thick air. So when I saw that people were posting kills in here at 1.8k I was a little dissapointed with it from a realism standpoit. I ask the game designers what justification they see in permitting such wildly unrealistic weapons performance in a suposedly hard core and realistic product?
thanks GRUNHERZ
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What topic(s) in particular Grunherz? As I recall there were several good discussions over the last year that ended possibly being 'net lag, shooting experience and in a couple of case HTC did look at and tweak some gunnery issue. If you really read those topics then you would know both sides of the discussion and not be asking about it here again. Imo of course.
-Westy
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HI
You are right I was curious to see if this was still an issue with this version of the game. Ill try it out and ill see how it works out.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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RAM, is that you??...lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mr. Groinhurts, please play the game and form your own opinions. The whiners on the BBS are overmodeled.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-10-2000).]
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I played this game since the first month it was out. In that time gunnery has become much more realistic. Originally it used to be possible to get hits and kills at a range of about 1.2k in the p51. Now, it is very tough to get hits beyond about 850 yds or so. (Note: you can get hits all the way out to about 1.2k still, but they are very hard to do, and do virtually no damage.) On the other hand, the bombers tailguns can get hits out to about 1.6k or so. This is a concession to the realities of Internet gaming. To a fighter attacking a bomber at high speed, he will appear much closer on his computer than the bomber pilots computer. Thus there is a boost to effective range.
Convergence and dispersion are also modelled in AH. This is pretty obvious if you take a p47 and set all of the guns to different convergences. Then go strafe a ground target. You will see hits all over the place. AH also models EVERY bullet fired, unlike some other sims.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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HI
Well I signed up and flew a bit. B-17s and their guns are no problem. Waaaaaaaaaay up there. lol Thanks for all your responses.
GRUNHERZ
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I took a shot at a B17 with a single 30 cal and kilt it at a distcance of over 30 miles.
Sound bout rat to me..
Yeager
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GRUNHERZ;
Welcome to AH!
I flew WB for years untill AH came out in Beta form. I strongly believe that the gunnery model in AH is very realist, at least in comparison to WB. All aspects of the fight model also seem to be right on. The programers at AH seem to get more done each month than other sim programers can do in a year, constant improvements and additions. I think that you will also like this sim.
eskimo
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<Ripsnort sniffs, "Artificial bait, Hmmmm..." swims after live bait (Vadr) that's swimming toward the deep...>
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/fishlure.jpg)
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Well Grunherz - I've never made or seen a kill at that range. Buzz Beurling did get a
kill on a Macchi at 800 yards with his spit5 in real-life. But he made a study of the trajectory of his 20mm cannon and used his exceptionally keen eyesight. He hit it with 5 cannon shells. Stanford Tuck also made some very long-range kills in real life.
You can do stuff like that in AH, but it is very hard to do. What most of us forget is that we get TONS more 'live' gunnery practice and dogfighting than anybody ever did in real-life, with the added major consideration that we can't really get hurt, we don't have to follow any orders, and we can't get court-martialed for carelessly destroying our aircraft. This is bound to result in "amazing feats" now and then.
AH is the only sim that models every bullet, BTW. For my money it is the most realistic WWII sim available by far, and also has the most fearsome and skillful collection of hot sim sticks flying in it (I am their frequent victim).
Of course people will always find some small
things to complain about - but you won't find
a sim that provides so much breadth and depth for skills development, or a better class of
virtual pilots to fly with and against than in AH.
Fluf
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hmmmmm, "hi"
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"Grünhertz" belongs to us. Our people will talk to your people.
Consider yourself sued. See you in court.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Hi
LOL
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I think this whole thread sprang from the fact that Grunherz confused the occasional lucky long range kill with a regular occurrence. In other words, yes, you _can_ kill someone at 2km with a single .50, but it almost never happens. Kinda like real life, really (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
And Grunherz, you seem to handle that 109 pretty decent for a 109. I got you twice today, but I had a 5K alt advantage and friendlies in the area. Nice evasives (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Rickenbacker
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i swear that he aint me
but yea , i have been killed by a buff at 1.8 k ( from a 90 deg angle so crap on the lag theory) and a couple nites ago i hit 425 kn tru at 18 k in a dive in a b17 . in my experience the fighter guns are much less on range and wildly less on damage. this is supposed to be a playability thing ( or a figment of our imagination) depends on who you talk to .got me i hope they fix it to. any deveation from reality for playability like that is , well bad cause if just sucks in the quake birds (gamers lookin for lots o frags). wait till you see 3 17 flyin at 200 feet straifin ground targets lol.or a single 17 agressivly out manuvering you at high alt ( not to mention out runnin)
its a great game just dont complain or criticise they dont like that even if you pay.
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Read the historical accounts and pilot biographical stuff and make up your own mind. Better yet go outside and put two markers on the ground to simulate the wingspan of a 109 and walk back 100yards/meters and see how big/small it looks-then try it at 800yards/meters. This is a good reality check.
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HI
Yes I noticed the 17s are pretty damn fast up there, I cimbed up to on max boost in a G-10 matched its speed but it seem very difficult to get out infront of it for a headon or climb above to set up some diving attack. Actually is sort of funny watching the Death Star ,oops, I mean 17 take out every fighter that tries to attack it. Single 17s in ww2 were dead meat. The Luftwaffe placed a high emphasis on seperating a bomber from the box as they found out that a lone 17 without the fire support of other bombers fell easily to figher attack. This is obviously not the case here.
Anyway, has anybody ever tried to attack a 17 with a 17?
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 08-12-2000).]
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This game be alot better if it was a bit more tactical , instead of like quake in airplanes. After about 3 months of play if ya want a realistic sim .. this isnt it. Between the AWACs / JSTAR / giant dots for airplanes and the royal lameass respawning and the fact that the factories and other facilities basically have ZERO importance , then you have the kamakazi thing where if you blow up first and the other guy second he wins , and the nearby kill where u can sit on the runway in a tank and collect kills all night long when someone dies near you. If you like fly and die stuff this sim fills the bill brilliantly but as a tactical sim its just Quake teamfortress in the air. Oh and getting screwed by sheep now and then really makes your day.
[This message has been edited by skippy (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Actually B-17, and B-24 bomber where used for low level bombing and straffing. Happened in the battle for the Aleutions <sp> against the japanese.
Yes "Greenheart" it is tough to get into a favorable attack position on a buff. Dosen't seem to be their speed so much, but them puppies can out turn a Spit with 0 energy loss. Oh yea, make sure you stay at least 2.0d away from them while you're setting up your suicide, er I mean attack run, lol.
...Weav
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Just out of curiosity, has Anyone in this game (besides me) ever shot a real .50 cal Machine Gun?
If you have, how far out did you think the dispersal was? 1000 yards and the dispertion from a **single** gun is pretty great. Now i'll talk to my buddies at work to be sure, but i think the guns we have today are prolly a hair more accurate than the ones 60 years ago.
My $.02
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Hamish!
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/assassins2.gif)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Hamish,
I shot a tank-mounted 12.5mm on T-72. It is controlled by rotating two knobs for asimuth and elevation, so it can be considered stationary. The dispersion was considerable.
It should be much more in a flying plane then in a tank due to the engine/air/wing/barrel/etc. vibrations but hard to tell without actual test results.
When I look at the bullet trails in AH, they go all over the place so dispersion is there. Do you think it is not sufficient?
It was much worse in WB with all bullets flying the same trajectory.
I have seen no complaints about dispersion in AH so far.
miko--
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HI
Dispersion seems very realistic on most
planes I guess I was just surprised at some of the claims of getting shot down at 1800 yards.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Well - now that ya've jumped in and are online with yer 2 week trial...Be sure and let us know when ya knock out a plane at 1800 yards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have shot an M2 on Ground mount, pintle mount(m113 cupola) and turrented(Grizly turret).Probably 800 to 1000 rounds total.
I dont know why the guns would have been less accurrate in 1944 then now.
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My favorite victim is the one missing me at long range and wasting his precious ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
RafBader
[This message has been edited by Randy MacDonald (edited 08-13-2000).]