Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on August 11, 2000, 10:46:00 AM
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There is an interview with the top Allied scorer, 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, at this location:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top)
Enjoy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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I bet half of those kills aren't confirmed.
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He was a speaker at the Boeing Flight Museum last year, very nice fellow, he had a translator with him thank Cod!
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What makes you say that Nath?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Nath,
Kozhedub is one of the highest scoring Soviet and Allied aces of WW2. Those 62 victories are all confirmed. Btw, Russian scoring system was much more strict then in others Allied countries.
Please next time you say something, provide us with your source of information. Else keep your opinions like this to yourself only.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 08-11-2000).]
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mx22, thanks for info. Are all the numbers he quotes confirmed, or is there a disagreement between German and Soviet/Russin historians?
I have had this question for some time, and maybe now someone can answer it.
I know the Germans had a more strict confirmed kill system than the allieds (Sviets excluded). Or I think I know (was told here on bb)
Now, what *were the criteria* for confirmed kill in the various airforces?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-11-2000).]
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I have strong reasons to believe that Kozhedub and a handfull of other russian aces are very different case then any other nations' pilots.
You must remember that you are dealing with the communist regime with all the implications.
I am positive that the following thing happened to those ace pilots:
Once a pilot showed some promise by shooting down say, 5 enemy planes, he was brought to the attention of the propaganda machine and milked for what it's worth. He had the medals and ranks heaped on him, the newspaper and radio correspondents covering him exclusively and so on.
All precautions were taken to insure that those pilots continue to rake their kills while minimizing the chance of them being shot down.
They were not allowed to take off without a few wings tasked with nothing but covering their six.
You can be sure that all their kills were reported as close to the truth as the conditions allowed. It's just how they've got them that is not reported.
I have seen statements to that effect in some books, obviously written by authors outside of the communist school.
I have talked to the war veterans that were shure that such practice took place.
I am sure from my own experience that there was no way the communist machine could have behaved differently.
We had lots of records in the Soviet Union that were not so much faked as staged, like a coal miner performing many daily norms in the course of his "Socialist Competition". What was not mentioned was the fact that on that day the whole mine had it's output halved because everything was working to support the "hero" coal miner.
I've read practically all the printed memoirs of soviet military commanders - my dad collected them. They are utter BS - the autors were prevented from writing anything significant, like why their division arrived to the western border to "defend" it two weeks before german attacked on June 22, 1941, if the german offence was not expected.
Or why it was "defending" on the western bank of the river. Or why they did not have trenches dug.
Or any kind of casualty reports or reasons for things done.
I am not even talking about the outright lies - in almost every case the russians are outnumbered by germans and advance (or heroically retreat, or better yet, die to the last man) after inflicting much heavier casualties on the enemy. Of course it is the germans who do not know how to fight smart and use human wave assaults.
Once you know history, or at least suspect the lies and keep an eye for it, you can read a lot of things between the lines and catch some of the truth the communist censure did not mean to surface.
It's a pity that the most prominent soviet marchall, Zhukov, preferred not to write any memoirs rather then produce the censored BS.
I believe that Kozhedub was a real war hero. At the same time I would not believe a word of his interview or his memoirs.
miko--
P.S. While the scoring of the particular pilots or snipers might have been very strict in the Red Army, the numbers officially reported in the newspapers showed total german casualties and equipment losses many times higher then they appeared.
Also the number of total human losses of the Soviet Union was arbitratily named in 1946 by Stalin at 7 million (to make it smaller then german losses reported at the same time).
In 1955 when Khrushev was fighting against the remnants of the Stalin's inheritance in his bid for power (Stalin safely dead by then). So the war problems were blamed on Stalin and the losses were reported at 20 millions to make him look worse.
When Gorbachev removed most of the censure, the most prominent historians (communists, of course, but now "liberal thinking" when it was safe) came up with the 47-50 million as the closest number.
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-11-2000).]
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RAF had a similar system to the Germans. Somebody was supposed to confirm the kill in addition to the pilot who got the pilot. Both the British and German systems ended up giving about four times the number of kills that actually happened. My reference is to the Battle of Britain where the Germans claimed four times the number lost by the British. The British claims in the first month of the battle were actually lower than what the Germans recorded as having lost. In subsequent months of the battle however, British claims spiraled up into fantasy land to join the German fantasy land claims.
Claims of a nearly perfect German claim system are far from the historical reality. I should note that the German claims were very accurate if the kill happened over land occupied by the Germans. But if it happened over the sea or enemy held land, they were just as bad as the British and Americans.
Sisu
-Karnak
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StSanta,
All the books dealing or talking about Russian AF of WW2 list him as highest scoring Allied ace. So I bet there were a lot of studies done to confirm his record and there is no need to doubt his score.
I have Osprey's Russian Aces of WW2 book at home which describes scoring system in Russian AF. I'll try not to forget to post it here when I get home.
miko2d,
I think Zhukov's book script was the REAL story, but he couldn't print it due to sencorship. So some editing took place for the benefit of Soviet society (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm gonna keep quiet about the rest of your post. Nothing of what you say there is proven, so I consider it's waste of time argueing about it.
Btw, lets not forget that many soldiers in Soviet army in first weeks didn't even had weapons issued to them. They had to fight off Germans with bare hands. Call it as you want, but it can be called heroical retreat in my opinion. Stand to the last man was the real fact too, I heard it from my grandfather who fought there.
mx22
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Well, mx22,
It is hard to argue about the fine points of the Soviet History. Until 10 years ago trying to talk to the eyevitnesses to get the real facts would have been very dangerous.
Since then it is very hard to find live eyewitnesses (with the male life expectancy there below 60 and considering that the war was not conducive to the veteran's health) who know the truth but were not benefitting from the lies.
With the free press in Russia there is lot of crap being published frpm the supposed eyewitnesses, conveniently dead by now, by the eyewitnesses whos objectiveness is suspect - like Kozhedub, from some kind of "documents" supposedly left around and conveniently found.
One thing I know for sure - the staged records were as much an integral part of the Soviet life as the advertisement in the capitalist countries. The same happened before, during and after the war.
Also, what is the likelihood that a high-ranking officer (Kozhedub was a general or something close at the end of the war, marshall eventually) and a rare holder of three Golden Stars of the Hero of the Soviet Union would be allowed to fly a lone wolf mission accompanied by a single wingman?!
"At that point, we saw our fighters and we turned for home." - what a joke - if there were no fighters around and Kozhedub had been killed, quite a few people would have lost their heads.
As for the "unarmed russian soldiers" - there are quite a few reasonable explanations for that starting with the mobilisation being conducted in the areas being overrun with enemy troops ar reinforcements sent to replace casualties.
What about 25 thousand russian tanks including 2700 medium and heavy (T34 & KV) vs. about 3 thousand german tanks, none of them medium or heavy?
You would think that a country that had so many tanks would have enough rifles. It's just that sometimes the weapons were not where they were needed in all the confusion of the german's preemptive strike.
Germans captured enourmous quantities of soviet armament and ammunition and used it for years. It was concentrated at the border for the russian aggression and was lost along with the most of the standing army.
miko--
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miko,
I'm sorry you are so bitter toward Russia, and I'm sure there is nothing I could say that might make you reconsider your statements. Such bitterness clouds fact, and creates convincing half-truths for its own sake. It is unfortunate.
Incidently, Kozhedub ended the war as a major, and received his last Gold Star HSU right after the war ended.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by leonid:
miko,
I'm sorry you are so bitter toward Russia, and I'm sure there is nothing I could say that might make you reconsider your statements. Such bitterness clouds fact, and creates convincing half-truths for its own sake. It is unfortunate.
Incidently, Kozhedub ended the war as a major, and received his last Gold Star HSU right after the war ended.
Please don't be insulted. Here in the USA we have a lot of people who are closet fascists because they think it's cute, having never experineced true fascism or any other totalitarian govenrment (yet). Sometimes I am very embarrassed by my fellow Americans. I wonder if this guys reformist analysis is as strict when he is examining the sordid history of our own country?
Nevermind this rude jerk, thats my advice.
DB
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Originally posted by Karnak:
There is an interview with the top Allied scorer, 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, at this location:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top)
Enjoy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
Do you know the year/issue on that article?
Been going through my Aviation History binders and can't find it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
- Jig
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Every country says that every other country's kill confirmations are bogus. What else is new. Kozhedub was a great pilot and hero. Why diminish this with such remarks?
As for special treatment of aces, the US and the Nazis did this as well.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-12-2000).]
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FWIW there is a new series of books comming out, vol. 1 hitting the street now: Black Cross/Red Star : Vol. 1, Operation Barbarossa 1941.
Go http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935553487/104-8174530-9427122 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935553487/104-8174530-9427122)
Not that it will help on statements as seen above.Readers Digest is so much easyer.
danish
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Well, what WERE the kill confirmation criteria?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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For the LW: a witness, the approval of your Komandeur and the final approval of the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe.The last point in effect made all claims primo marts 1945 onwards non-official, according to Eric Mombeek "Reichverteidigung.Die Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 1 "Oseau"".
Col. Raymond F. Toliver, USAF (Ret.) & Trevor J. Constable have some interesting views in their "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe":
" On the Eastern Front, the Luftwaffe produced the highest scoring aces of all
time. They are Erich Hartmann, with 352 victories, Gerhard Barkhorn with 301,
and Gunther Rall with 275 victories. Other top-scoring Germans in Russia were
Otto Kittel with 267 victories, Walter Nowotny with 258 downings, and Willi
Batz with 237. These men are but the top scorers. There were numerous lower-
scoring but eminent pilots such as "Macky" Steinhoff with 176 victories, Tony
Hafner with 209, md Hermann Graf - one of Germany's popular wartime he-
roes - with 212 aerial victories, and Wilter Scluck, 206 victory ace from the
frozen north of Finland.
These scores are enormous by the standards of the contemporary USAAF,
RAF and Soviet Air Force. There was a consequent reluctance, for many de-
cades, to accept these huge German scores as valid. This passed in due time, as
non-German historians finally examined and analyzed German records and pro-
cedures.
The authors have spent sufficient time interviewing German aces, examin-
ing records, logbooks, wing histories and other official documents over a forty
year period, to have no doubt as to the thoroughness of the Luftwaffe scoring
system.The German system was rigid.British and American scoring procedures were
far less demanding, and allowed such mythical accredations as one half, one
third or three quarters of a victory - the so called shared victory.
The German penchant for precision could not abide such ideas as a pilot
down half an aircraft. This fiction was eliminated by a simple set of rules.
Were more than one pilot was involved in a downing, the pilots had to decide
between themselves who best deserved the credit. In the event of an im-
passe, the downing was credited to the pilots' unit, with no individual pilot credit
awarded.
A typical case occurred on 22 March 1943, when First lieutenant Heinz-
Schnaufer, later to become the top scoring night fighter ace of the war,
a victory over an RAF Lancaster. Captain Wilhelm Herget, later Major Herget and credited with seventy-two victories by war's end, claimed the same aircraft.
In the dark, both of them had engaged the same bomber. General Kammhuber
of the night fighters ordered the two aces to draw lots to settle the matter.
Herget won.
Under the USAAF system, by contrast, it was possible for a pilot to become an
ace without ever scoring a clear victory of his own. He could reach five victo-
ries on shared credits.A mathematical substraction could become a substitute for genuine achievements.The USAF contuined the quistionable tradition though the Korean War and into the Vietnam conflict.In 1966, the USAF further adulterated its already suspect victory credits system by announcing that victories scored by USAF aircraft with a crew of two - a pilot in the front seat and a "guy in back" - would be accredited by giving both pilots a victory credit. Thus, five enemy aircraft downed, creates two American aces!
The Luftwaffe system was clearly more rational and realistic. "One pilot -
one victory" was the straight forward scoring rule. Without a witness, a Luftwaffe
pilot had no chance of victory confirmation. Such a claim, even if filed. would
not pass beyond his Gruppenkommandeur.
The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bail-
out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film, or by at least one
other human witness. This witness could be the German pilot's wingman, squad-
ron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter. There was no possibility, as
with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claim-
ing officer was a gendeman of his word. The Luftwaffe rule was simply "no wit-
ness - no victory credit."
This rule applied universally in the Luftwaffe, no matter what the pilot's
rank or ace status. The authors have a photostatic copy of one of Galland's own
wartime combat reports of a downing. The report concludes with, "I resign the
confirmation of this victory for lack of a witness."
The Luftwaffe system was impartial, inflexible and far less error-prone than
British or American procedures. German fighter pilots sometimes had to wait
more than a year for victory confirmation to reach them from the Luftwaffe High
Command. There are some examples in this book.
The Germans differed radically from the Allies with the Luftwaffe's compli-
cated "points' system, instituted to bring a modicum of uniformity into the be-
stowal of higher decorations. The Allies had no such points system.
In effect only on the Western Front, points were awarded for decorations as
follows:
Single-engined plane destroyed 1 point
Twin-engined plane destroyed 2 points
Three-engined plane destroyed 3 points
Four-engined plane destroyed 3 points
Twin-engined plane damaged 1 point
Three or four-engined plane damaged 2 points
Final destruction, damaged twin-engined plane 1/2 point
Final destruction, damaged four-engined plane 1 point
The Germans set great store by the ability of a fighter pilot to separate indi-
vidual Allied bombers from the box formations in which they flew. Thus, a
Luftwaffe pilot could not win points for damaging an Allied bomber unless he
separated it from the box - the separation being known as Herauschuss.
This points system for decorations, has been confused in past years with
normal victory confirmation procedures. Much inaccurate material has been
written about the German scores because of this confusion. A practical example
of the two systems, as they worked during the war, mill provide clarification.
Suppose it is early 1943, at which time forty points were needed to qualify a
fighter pilot for the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Our hypothetical pilot, Captain Flugmann, has already shot down and confirmed twenty-two single-
engined fighters (twenty-two points), five twin-engined bombers (ten points), and
two four engined bombers (six points). Flugmann is an ace with twenty-nine victo-
ries, but he has only thirty-eight points - not enough for his knight's Cross.
Flugmann takes off next day and damages a B-17, separating it from its box
formation. He also brings about the final destruction of a second B-17 damaged
previously by another German pilot. Flugmann now has forty-one points, enough
for his knight's Cross, but he is credited with thirty victories after reconciling the
air battle with other pilots and getting victory credit for one of the bombers.
This point-decoration system was used only on the Western Front, because
the Germans believed it was easier to shoot down Russian fighters and bombers
than to down Western-flown aircraft. The Germans considered the mighty Al-
lied bomber streams, with their lethal volumes of protective fire and hordes of
escort fighters, to be a far tougher proposition than Soviet air power.
Although the point-decoration system for the Eastern Front was not in ef-
fect, victory-confirmation procedures and requirements were the same on both
fronts. Late in the war, there were pilots on the Eastern Front with over 100
victories, who had still to receive the Knight's Cross awarded for forty points won
in the West."
danish
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Thanks danish, *great* info (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am quite sure our opportunist friends will say theirs is the more rigorous system. For the sake of objectivity, I'd like to see those as well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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StSanta,
Here is the info on scoring system. It taken from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 15 "Soviet Aces of World War 2":
Returning to combat claim submissions, and their recognition by the VVS, SOviet ace Col Vladimir A Orekhov, who was credited with 19 personal and 3 group kills, described the process in an interview conducted by Sergey Kul'baka in Minsk in 1995;
'After the mission, pilots gathered together and everone spoke about how many aircraft they had shot down personally, and about those shot down by comrades that they had individually observed. The squadron adjutant wrote down these facts. This document was named the "Combat Report of Fulfilled Mission". It had to be filled out after every mission, and contained data concerning the results of the mission, and pilots who claimed kills. At the end of the day all such reports were collected in the regiment headquarters, and the regiment's own combat report was completed.
'The kills were usually confirmed by the commander of the regiment. To get confirmation one of the following "proofs" had to be available:
1)confirmation from at least two other pilots who took part in the fight
2)confirmation from ground troops
3)confirmation from partisans
4)verification on the seized terretory
'These forms of verification were equal, but sometimes - especially if the fight took place over enemy territory, and there were only two fighters involved - the last two "proofs" were obligatory.
'A confirmed kill was written into the pilot's flying log book, and this served as teh official recognition of the victory. Confirmation took place on the same day, if there were enough witnesses, or after some weeks or even months if confirmation from partisans on the ground was needed. At the beggining of the war the process of verification was much simplier because the Red Army was in retreat, so confirmation by other pilots was considered to be enough. The practice of dividing kills claims between "personal" kills and "in group" victories depended on the tradition of the particular regiment. In 32. Gv.IAP (Guard Fighter Air Regiment), all the kills were "personal", and every aircraft shot down "belonged" solely to the pilot who brought it down.'
Books goes on talking about recognition system, but I don't want to retype here the whoel chapter - too much work, plus if you are so interested, go get the book. It's less the $20 and is a fun read, like the rest of books from this series.
mx22
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Thanks mx22!
Now all we need is the Jap, Amurrcn and Brri th h hish ways.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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AFAIK the Japanese did not keep score officially.
Concerning the Soviet verification system, I am reading Igor Kaberov's "Swastika In The Gunsight" and his unit (naval fighter unit in Leningrad area) used the method described by MX22. Kaberov (28 kills) describes the gatherings after the mission, the use of confirmation from ground personnel, as well as many ground verifications.
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One major factor with the Japanese score system is that when a pilot shot down another plane, the pilot's unit got the victory not the indivual pilot. Same goes with mistakes, if a pilot fcked up the unit would get punished.
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Leonid,
I am not bitter towards Russia, just the communists of all nations. I do not like Facists too, but only academically - never seen a live one or had to live under a facist regime (not that there is much difference).
As for the Russia, quite the opposite. In my posts you will see that I am trying to prove that russians had a terrible start of war not because they were an inferior or stupid or ill prepared, or covardly, but because of the objective historical and military situation. That situation was brought on by Stalin, and not as a result of his stupidity either, as it is commonly assumed.
Russians had to start a fight at a disadvantage against the Nazis they hated to protect the rule of communists they hated no less.
They won all the wars they fought including the impossible Winter War aggression against Finland, but they are still pictured as incapable morons by most "historians" including their own.
As for the Kozhedub, if you asked any child in Russia to name three famous war heros, Kozhedub would be one of them. He got all his medals and promotions for what he did during the war, no matter when he received them.
He was a propaganda icon from early on in his career as an ace. His loss would have been a blow to their propaganda campain and so his survival was important to the communist regime.
Thinking of them not using him in his propaganda is as impossible to me as for you to think of Coca-Cola coming up with a new drink and never mentioning it in an advertizement. People responsible for the communist propaganda during Stalins rule were extremely thorough in their work. If they screwed up they were not fired, they were shot.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Great thread guys! Lots of really interesting info.
I just got through reading "The war diary of Hauptmann Helmut Lipfert" JG52 on the Russian front 1943-1945. Excellent book I recommend to all. isbn 0-88740-446-4 It has given me a much more indepth feel for the fighting that occured on the western front and the tactics used(or not used in some cases)by the pilots of both sides. It also has given me more of a historical perspective on some of the issues such as hiding in the ack, chute shooting(he only mentions it in reference to the Ami's trying to kill one of his freinds), and alt monkeys.
Please keep up the banter, its a way to learn alot.
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Lizard
"Engage the enemy; not the keyboard"
Hangtime
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Ooops I was allmost involved in a political discussion here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-13-2000).]
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miko,
About Kozhedub being a propaganda symbol for the Communist Party, I agree with you. He was a party member since a young man (Komsomol). He was not as critical as Pokryshkin about the VVS, and much handsomer too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Thus, a perfect chance for the Communist Party.
Still, he was a great pilot, and an ace. That is what my point is - he was a good pilot. Being communist has nothing to do with that. Thus, it is irrelevant for this discussion, a side note.
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Interview with 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, leading Allied scorer
He is not Russian as writen in interview with him he was born at Ukraine. So he was Soviet ace or Ukrainne Ace nothing else. Thats tha same as saying that england won Battle of Britain.
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Leonid - everyone in Soviet Union was a communist at some point from that point of view - you had no choice about Komsomol, OK?
miko - what makes you think that Galland et al were less a political figures then Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and others? Nazi regime in Germany was very similar to that of Stalin's Soviet Union. With massive brainwashing of millions, terror and physical destruction of those who dared to disagree.
And of course you "know better" - stuff those who'd fought and died for you now to sit pretty and belittle their sacrifice! If you're not "...trying to prove that russians had a terrible start of war not because they were an inferior or stupid or ill prepared, or covardly..." - how come you manage to achieve quite the opposite?
Whether you chose to believe that Kozhedub flew "free hunt" missions with just his wingmen is kinda not here or there. Quite a few Soviet fighter pilots managed to fly this type of missions without thinking whether future "history experts" decide if it was OK for them to do so.
I makes me sick sometimes to see how some guys from the States idolize German pilots. Hartmann & Co could obviously do no wrong killing YOUR OWN grandads in their droves. Ever been to Duxford? Saw thousands of silouettes of B17s and B24s etched on glass to show how many planes were lost over Germany? Now picture your very own grandad as a gunner on one of them and then discuss how valiant a pilot von Someone-or-Other was killing him... Geez. Kozhedub and others kept Hartmann and others busy on the Eastern Front - if your grandad was in the 8th AF you may owe this "commie" your very life. Be grateful.
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Agree 100% Lynx. The Nazi propaganda pumped up the German aces just like the Soviets did with theirs. Hell the Nazi propaganda is still effective to this day! The myth of Luftwaffe superiority persists in the face of overwhelming evidence that... they got their tulips handed to them.
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I have just ordered Black Cross/Red Star : Vol. 1, Operation Barbarossa 1941 I have seen their web site a while ago and knew authors coming out with a book, but didn't know it will be so soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Barnesandnoble.com says it delivers same day in Manhatten (yea right, last time it took them 3 businees days or 5 days alltogether to deliver), so hopefully I'll get it today and have a chance posting small review about it here. Btw, book's website (http://blackcross-redstar.com/) offers free chapter in pdf format.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Just want to add to -lynx- post,
Komsomol, Pioner (aka Boyscout) and Oktyabrenok (don't ask me about eqevalent of this in US. It's something like Pioner but for younger kids) was mandotory in Soviet school. The only way for one not to get accepted was to commit something very out of ordinary. I have never seen or known any person like that.
Also, noone ever asked if you want to join or no. It was a normal thing to do and you never questioned (at least I didn't) it.
mx22
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lynx,
Being a Communist Party member was not so prevalent before the Great Patriotic War. Only during that war was it encouraged among the masses as a means of identifying the national/historical struggle with the Party.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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leonid,
Since the revolution in 1917, people were encouraged to join party. It was always the same, you just hear about it more during war time (Btw I don't recall reading or hearing people were pushed into the party membership even then. But newspapers liked the idea of communist heroes and that's why you hear about them so much). As in Germany during Nazis, you were not required to be a member of the party, but you can go so much further in less period of time if you happened to be one.
mx22
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For those who interested - Barnesandnoble.com decide to make my day and acctaully delivered book to me.
First thing first, book is huge. I say it's about as thick as Shaw's Fighter Combat, but it's height is much bigger. 308 pages in total. Font is a bit big in my opinion, but it's not that big to make one think that publisher tried to squeeze all the extra pages it could. Almost every page contains a picture, but once again this is not one of those pretty much useless picture-books - there is a lot of text to read.
Book starts with 6 black/white maps - before the outbreak of war with Russia, unit positions on June 22, 1941 (first day of war) and 3 more maps showing combat areas. I would have loved color maps (apperantly originals were colored), but I guess that's one of the things discounted for lower price.
Book starts with 2 forewards - one from each side.
First 6 chapters introduce reader to the topic - situation before the war, aircraft in service and etc. Chapter 7 through 31 cover time span from June 22, 1941 to the end of the year.
Obiously I didn't get to read the book yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), but if the free chapter on book's website (url given in previous posts) is any indication, it should be a fun read.
Btw, did I mention beautiful cover art? It's on par or even better then on Osprey's Aces books.
Overall, $32 (Barnesandnoble.com price) is what seems like a fair price to me.
So there ya go. Hope you find this small review useful.
mx22
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Check out the Blackcross/Redstar site.There are some great reads here.
http://www.blackcross-redstar.com/ (http://www.blackcross-redstar.com/)
Frodo