Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Warchief on September 12, 2003, 12:14:50 AM
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A new perk point system should be used with bombers. Today I flew my lancaster at low lvl. Took out 90% of city 2 gun enplacement along with a fh. Given I lost all 3 bombers on the raid and I understand my perk points were going to be low. Only got 1.52 for the raid. The reaons I think it needs re vamped is I flew a F4u Corsair attack run and hit fewer targets and got shot down and still had more perk points after words than I did on my bomber run. I am not saying lets make getting pewrk points easier for bombers. But that less perk points should be taken away for losing 1 or 2 bombers and landing the last one. But then again perk points for bombers only go to the A234 which aint that great of a bomber. But still not asking for a whole new system but a little revamping to make it better and that way there would be more buff raids in the game.
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Fly the Ki-67.
Take the eight 100kg bombs.
Set salvo to 8 and delay to .40.
Pick a strat target (City (not town), or a factory complex)
Climb to 21,000ft.
Set manifold to 35lbs.
Open bomb bombay doors.
Line up on target.
Once the speed has settled, calibrate the bombsight (hold the target for at least 15 seconds).
Drop bombs.
Target gets the hell blown out of it.
Return to base and land.
RESULT: Bomber perk points. (Fighter kills are icing on the cake)
Doing this a Ki-67 formation will destroy almost as much of the strat target as a Lanc formation, but has a much higher OBJ rating. Better yet the Ki-67 is faster in speed and climb and has better defensive firepower.
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Yeah you could do that. But I am just saying equal out the perks alittle better than they are. Never flew the Ki-67. It sounds like a b-26. ANd I have doen that with B-26s and B-17s and you only get a handful of perk points. If you are going to lose perk points for the bombers that get shot down. Then you get better pointsa for the other bombers in you formation then.
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You don't lose perk points for bombers that get shot down, unless you are flying the Ar234.
(Ki-67 has a higher OBJ than any other land based bomber IIRC, and its faster too)
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Then the next time I am testing out aircraft for my squad I will take alook.
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Who cares?
The only perk bomber isnt all that good, and is prettymuch useless in a formation. What good are bomber perks?
Still, for good bomber perks, you gotta shoot down fighters. The perks from blowing up ground targets are mediocre in any bomber when compared to the perks from blasting fighters.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Who cares?
The only perk bomber isnt all that good, and is prettymuch useless in a formation. What good are bomber perks?
Still, for good bomber perks, you gotta shoot down fighters. The perks from blowing up ground targets are mediocre in any bomber when compared to the perks from blasting fighters.
Yup, kinda silly do't you think?:confused:
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If there was a way to transfer perks for Bombers, you could have mine.
I've got a few thousand, and I'll never use them on that AR234.
Just a waste of CPU in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Who cares?
The only perk bomber isnt all that good, and is prettymuch useless in a formation. What good are bomber perks?
Still, for good bomber perks, you gotta shoot down fighters. The perks from blowing up ground targets are mediocre in any bomber when compared to the perks from blasting fighters.
the ENY/OBJ for buffs are wrong. they give too many perks for shootin fighters, and not enough for bombing things.
ENY on Buffs should 1 to 10(depending on Defences of the bomber), and OBJ like 40 to 100( small loads high OBJ, large loads smaller OBJ).
as it is right now Bombers get more perks for killin fighters (which wasnt thier duty), then killin ground stuff(was thier duty).
Fighters get barely 1 perk for 3 buffs sometimes. Fighters job was to kill enemy fighters and intercept buffs, and right now they get
shafted in perks for it.
The 262 should be the only fighter to get even perks or less then
1 perk per buff kill.
examples of ENY/OBJs
ENY OBJ
B17 : 3(lots of defence guns) 75( semi large load)
Lanc: 5(lots of guns but no belly) 50 (large bomb load)
B26: 4(good defences) 80(relitively small load)
Ju88: 7(poor defence) 100(small load)
A20: 9(poor defence) 100(ssmall)
Bos: 10(no defence) 100(small)
Ki67: 6(good defence) 90(small)
whels
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If you want more useless bomber perks I cant think of a better plane to do it than the A20-G. Hell, I had several sorties yesterday over 12 and 15 perks in one run (no rearm). 8x500 enough to kill a town and there is no better "bomber" to shoot down fighters and blow up trucks with.
(Reminds me of the old AW a26 a lot)
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I don't know why you'd want bomber perk points but you can easily get 20-30 per sortie. 1) Stop milk running. 2) Find a couple of 100% up strat target deep behind enemy lines. 3) Up in B-17s and go blow em both up. 4) Don't miss. That'll get you at least 20-25 perk points. 5) Down a couple of fighters on the return trip for another 3 perk points.
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Originally posted by whels
examples of ENY/OBJs
ENY OBJ
B17 : 3(lots of defence guns) 75( semi large load)
Lanc: 5(lots of guns but no belly) 50 (large bomb load)
B26: 4(good defences) 80(relitively small load)
Ju88: 7(poor defence) 100(small load)
A20: 9(poor defence) 100(ssmall)
Bos: 10(no defence) 100(small)
Ki67: 6(good defence) 90(small)
You haven't looked at the Ju88's bombload lately, have you?
It seems you also haven't looked at the Lanc's defensive guns lately.
The Ju88s bombload is bigger than the B-17s.
The Ki-67 is MUCH better defended than the Lanc.
Revised:
B17 : 3(lots of defense guns) 75(semi large load)
Lanc: 7(poor defenses) 50 (large bomb load)
B26: 4(good defenses) 80(relatively small load)
Ju88: 8(poor defense) 75(semi large load)
A20: 8(poor defense) 85(relatively small load)
Bos: 10(poor defense) 100(small)
Ki67: 5(good defense) 90(small)
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You haven't looked at the Ju88's bombload lately, have you?
yes, it has 4 1.1ks and 20 110lbders = about 6k bombload, near = to b17.
It seems you also haven't looked at the Lanc's defensive guns lately.
LAnc has poor defences unless u attack from straight 6 or above, u attack from bottom, its defenceless.
The Ju88s bombload is bigger than the B-17s.
no they near = in lbs
The Ki-67 is MUCH better defended than the Lanc.
yep ki67 is better defended cause of the 20mm but still vulnarble belly.
was miss typed by me.
Revised:
B17 : 3(lots of defense guns) 75(semi large load)
Lanc: 7(poor defenses) 50 (large bomb load)
B26: 4(good defenses) 80(relatively small load)
Ju88: 8(poor defense) 75(semi large load)
A20: 8(poor defense) 85(relatively small load)
Bos: 10(poor defense) 100(small)
Ki67: 5(good defense) 90(small) [/QUOTE]
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Well..perk points should be piled into one basket, to be used on any plane or vehicle of choice. I can bomb with an arado, but who the hell wants to spend 30 minutes to maybe hit one fuel bunker? Perk points should be earned like money, to be spent on anything the player wants.
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I fully agree that perk points should be used for anything you want. But also perk points needs a revamping when it comes to transports and resupply missions. I got more perk points taking a field than I did on 3 gv supply runs and 2 airfield supply drops. You get no perks for gv supply drops and max 4.9 on airfield drops.
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The best perks always come from defeating other players. I see no reason to change that.
Bomber milkruns and re-supplies should continue to be the worst way to gain perks.
Want bomber perks? Bomb a heavily defended field. Want GV perks? Grab a panzer and help fight off a GV rush.
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I am all foir rewarding successfull bombing missions with more perks............... I am also for making bombers buy their heavier bomb loads with perks............. that they get back (plus their well earned buff perks) when they rtb.
That way we see less raids that have suicidal tendancies...............
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Well..perk points should be piled into one basket
Actually I would hold entirely the opposite view............
For me their would be
Fighter perks
Attack perks
Buff perks
Vehicle/gunner/boat perks.
Remove the fighter/attack button (if your fighter loads bombs or rockets or ammo over 30mm you are in attack mode)
Place all buffs without level bomb sights (or/and that cannot fly formation) in the attack category (inc C47)
Perk bomb loads beyond a certain weight of bomb..........
Amply reward attack & buff missions that RTB successfully..............
and while we are at it.......
Fix bomb release in "bombers" (and C47's)such that it can only be effected from F6 at a near level AOA.
This IMO
reduces suicidal tendancies of some jabo / buff missions
rewards successfull missions with perks that can be used for bigger load outs as well as the few perk AC options that may be available...........
makes dive bombing big buffs impossible.
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This would produce a couple of anomalies still......such as the fact that certain types of Ju88 were used as dive bombers.
However if we want a dive bombing (or even radar equiped night fighting) Ju88 then it should be added as a separate non formation attack AC on the list.
Much as should a Mossie XVI(XVIII ?) be added then it may be a formation based (perked) high speed buff with F6 sight.
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Originally posted by Tilt
I am all foir rewarding successfull bombing missions with more perks............... I am also for making bombers buy their heavier bomb loads with perks............. that they get back (plus their well earned buff perks) when they rtb.
That way we see less raids that have suicidal tendancies...............
Wait a minute, are you rewarding bombing skill or gunnery skill; IMO the amount of practice needed to stay proficient at level bombing is enough of a penalty and with the new maps in AH2, it's logical to expect camouflaged fuel bunkers to fix the communities loudest complaint.
I will always disagree with your rule on outside bomber views in scenarios :p but we can continue to campaign on everything in your second post.:D
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Let me get this straight... Warchief wants more perks for using a strategic bomber against tactical targets?
Perhaps the game is trying to tell him something.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Wait a minute, are you rewarding bombing skill or gunnery skill; IMO the amount of practice needed to stay proficient at level bombing is enough of a penalty and with the new maps in AH2, it's logical to expect camouflaged fuel bunkers to fix the communities loudest complaint.
I think to rank as a proficient buff pilot one should gain a level of both bombing and gunning skills............. the pilot at 10k will need to concentrate on his gunnery and the pilot at 25k will probably have to develop more aiming skills........... if you see my point.....
I think re fuel porking that that given fields will be standardised (such that even if you cant see it you know where it is) the terrain mod would be to spread fuel out and increase its quantity per field..................and hide it below those tree canopies HT has forcast.:p
re externals in scenarios............thats batz's idea......... I just liked it.
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Originally posted by Tilt
.....and the pilot at 25k will probably have to develop more aiming skills.....
I think you have no idea how tough it is to be consistent above 16K :D
Originally posted by Tilt
Re: fuel.... that given fields will be standardised (such that even if you cant see it you know where it is)
That's not my impression; I believe the field setup can be customized for each field, limited only by the amount of work required of the map maker. I hope and expect variations of the beautiful Okinawa fields to be put into play with any new maps and look forward to 10-12 different airfield setups.
Originally posted by Tilt
re externals in scenarios............thats batz's idea......... I just liked it.
Argh, Wotan!;) It's almost enough to make me start flying Allied again, almost but not quite.:D If I could I'd make you both fly nothing but bombers for a tour.:p
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I fly the Arado a lot, haven't been caught in months even when I hit targets that are pretty heavily defended. I don't need to climb to 20K+, basically not much can catch you even at 10K. 400+mph cruise, 2,000ft/min climb, 3,300lb's of bombs (1500kgs)... once free of the bombs it cruises at more like 450mph.
Too many people think bombers all need to carry 10K+ of bombs, use lots of guns to defend themselves, and then must be able to carpet bomb a field into submission. The Arado is a precision instrument that can be deadly effective if you know what you are doing... it's a great aircraft.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
I think you have no idea how tough it is to be consistent above 16K :D
Oh I have ......... if you ever find me in a 4 engined heavy over target it will be at 20K...........and yes........... I miss alot........and still get shot down alot.
There is this old pun recounted by ex RAF bomber types
Apparantly there was this large group of B17's from the glorious 8th? inbound to target over Belgium working its way to the Rhine at about 25K.
Lead Bomb aimer to lead pilot: "we are going to have to reduce altitude to 23 k, visibility is poor"
Lead pilot to lead bomb aimer: "Ok but that will bring us in range of the long range ack"
They drop down and sure enough the long range ack starts to pick them up.
Lead Bomb aimer to lead pilot: "we are going to have to reduce altitude to 21 k, visibility is still poor"
Lead pilot to lead bomb aimer: "Ok but that will bring us in range of the medium range ack"
They drop down and sure enough the medium range ack starts to pick them up as well as the long range ack. Its getting scary stuff is bursting every where.....
Lead Bomb aimer to lead pilot: "we are going to have to reduce altitude to 19 k, visibility is still poor"
Lead pilot to lead bomb aimer: "Ok but that will bring us in range of the short range ack"
They drop down and sure enough the short range ack starts to pick them up as well as the medium and long range ack. The sky around them is full of shrapnel and the bombers are beginning to suffer damage.........
Lead Bomb aimer to lead pilot: "we are going to have to reduce altitude, visibility is still poor"
Lead pilot to lead bomb aimer: " Sorry bomb aimer I am not going any lower"
Lead Bomb aimer to lead pilot: "why not"
Lead pilot to lead bomb aimer:"Because thats where the bloody RAF are"
............................. ..........
Last recounted by ex bomb aimer and navigator "Stamper" Metcalf 100 Squadron (Lancasters) during his talk to the AH UK Con 2002.
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Muhahah :D :D
Nice story!
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No I dont think bombers should get more perk popiints for bombing tactical targets with stargetic bombers. To sum you you sould get more perk points for successful bombing regardless what mission you fly for hitting your targets. And re-supply missions might be milkruns to everyone. They allow shorter rebuilding times on everything and if gvs are launcinh a massive attakc they can be resupplied without have to RTB
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Um, right, sorry Warchief, this was your buff perk point thread.
One thing we can't ignore is the use of perk point to encourage certain behavior; as in making those resupply runs, captures, or hitting strat targets instead of tactical targets with level bombers. It's part of the reason you get so few perk points for bombing the hangers, fuel and other stuff at an airfield.
Some players are satisfied with trading perks for the Ar234 but if I'm going to spend more than half an hour in a bomber, I want at least a 6K bomb load to go with that exotic ride I'm buying.
I just wish the Axis had as rich a selection of level bomber as the Allies (in AH of course.)
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Originally posted by Soda
I fly the Arado a lot, haven't been caught in months even when I hit targets that are pretty heavily defended. I don't need to climb to 20K+, basically not much can catch you even at 10K. 400+mph cruise, 2,000ft/min climb, 3,300lb's of bombs (1500kgs)... once free of the bombs it cruises at more like 450mph.
Too many people think bombers all need to carry 10K+ of bombs, use lots of guns to defend themselves, and then must be able to carpet bomb a field into submission. The Arado is a precision instrument that can be deadly effective if you know what you are doing... it's a great aircraft.
This is one of the problems with AH in my humble opinion.
Really, what can you do with a flock of arado's that makes a strategic difference for your country? Can that be done with a p51 suicide jabo? Yes it can, in fact, in about 1/3rd the time or even less, since the arados need to rtb to avoid losing 100's of perks.
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The only real value to ar234 has is for tactical bombing. The fuel load is not exactly great for hitting stargetic targets in most areas. The only real value I have found for it for hitting cities. It is very hard to calibrate bomb sites in it. And yes there needs to be more axis bombers as well as some allied bombers left out. Let me put it this way. Regardless of what you are bombing you do so to help your side win. Whether you are bombing an airfield or city to make way for other people or hitting stragetic targets. Perk points should be the same no matter what target you hit. I have flown ultra long range missions hit my target and make it back to base only to get 1.94 perk points. I got that when I took out 2 ports in one flight and knocked out at least 9 targets. I landed all 3 bombers back at base. The perk points need to reflec that. I have seen people knock out tanks with Lancasters and lose 1 and get more perk points thatn I have bomboing stargetic targets with 4 engine long range bombers. And in WW2 they did use stargetic bombers for tactical bombing.
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One of my favorite Ar-234 missions is to take a single plane with 3 x 500kg bombs and fly on the deck to some strat target. (This works best on maps like NDisles where you can fly over water and many strat targets are not far inland.)
As you get close to the target begin pulling up and drop your bombs when your nose is about 45 degrees above the horizon with a delay of 0.4 to 0.6 secs. Then do a wingover, dive back for the deck and run like a bunny.
This method was practiced in both the Soviet and US airforces (and probably every other nuclear power) after WW2 to deliver small nukes with jet fighters.
With large strat targets (only attack ones that are at 100% or close to it) it's surprisingly easy to put all three bombs on target.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
Also, I like whels' and Karnak's ideas.
Karnak is right on about the Ki-67, too. I fly missions like he describes, often returning with all 3 buffs and a kill or two. Plus around 20 perks.
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Want to stop the suicide dweebery? Then modify perk points awarded to follow the scoring system. Instead of the full reward regardless of outcome with a small bonus for landing.
Final perk points awarded for a sortie should follow this pattern, the actual values could be changed but the general idea is right:
Muliplied by:
1.25 - Landed
0.75 - Ditched
0.5 - Bailed successfully
0.4 - Captured
0.25 - Death
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Originally posted by Blackbal
Want to stop the suicide dweebery? Then modify perk points awarded to follow the scoring system. Instead of the full reward regardless of outcome with a small bonus for landing.
Final perk points awarded for a sortie should follow this pattern, the actual values could be changed but the general idea is right:
Muliplied by:
1.25 - Landed
0.75 - Ditched
0.5 - Bailed successfully
0.4 - Captured
0.25 - Death
I agree completly.
If you reward stupid behavior then you will see it blosom.
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It's always funny to hear people reply to a perk thread with "take the chittiest plane and.." That's gaming the game, encouraging it is BS.
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Originally posted by AVRO1
If you reward stupid behavior then you will see it blosom.
If the objective is killing the facilities on the base, and they don't care about your perk points for the run, then they're going to dive in and suicide regardless.
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Originally posted by Shiva
If the objective is killing the facilities on the base, and they don't care about your perk points for the run, then they're going to dive in and suicide regardless.
I never said they would not.
But I also never said I like base capture as the main objective.
I would much rather have objectives like in scenarios.
The Luftwaffe's objective in the BoB was the destruction of the RAF.
So Luftwaffe would score points for shooting down RAF planes and destroying the RAF's airfields.
If all you want is to fight other fighters then escort bombers.
Since the RAF's objective is to stop the bombing you know they will come. (Unless they are all handsomehunkes of course)
Now all you got to do is engage the intercepters.
It is way more realistic and it promotes good gameplay by rewarding good actions for your country.
I dont know why no one as done this yet.
Maybe it is way more comlicated to do then it looks.
In my view that would be much better then current MA play.
If the CT was setup this way I would fly there.
Sorry about the ranting :D
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I dont wanna sound elistist here but I have more repsect for the bomber guys who climb to alt and hit targets than the NOE guys whose sole goal is to get as many bombs on a target as fast as possible. To me there's a difference between flying a bomber as a bomber...than using one as a big P-47 JABO strike.
As to perks, the Ar234 isnt all that, its hard to hit stuff with it due to its speed....and like any perk plane, is an instant magnet for any con in the sector. It may as well be like yelling "free beer" in Shea Stadium :)
I'd like to see the Ar234 unperked, or severely reduced. Back when we had the EasySight, yea...it could be very dangerous. 4 of those and the base was shut down. Now...not the case.
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Originally posted by LePaul
I dont wanna sound elistist here but I have more repsect for the bomber guys who climb to alt and hit targets than the NOE guys whose sole goal is to get as many bombs on a target as fast as possible. To me there's a difference between flying a bomber as a bomber...than using one as a big P-47 JABO strike.
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Agreeed..but the game rewards the quick NOE strikes as well as the suicide jabos. There needs to be a way to regen the targets the planes destroy if they dont land safely.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Agreeed..but the game rewards the quick NOE strikes as well as the suicide jabos. There needs to be a way to regen the targets the planes destroy if they dont land safely.
I understand your frustration, but there is no way you can fairly do that. The closest thing that's happened to improve the situation was requiring 1000ft (or more?) of alt for bombs to detonate.
Im not sure what kind of solution you could craft for this. I find it tacky, and annoying as well. Much like the CV dives by buffs.
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Originally posted by LePaul
The closest thing that's happened to improve the situation was requiring 1000ft (or more?) of alt for bombs to detonate.
Point of information. Bombs do not require 1000 feet of altitude to arm; they require 1000 feet of travel to arm. So a plane flying at 350 mph TAS 500' off the ground would be able to drop its bombs and have the bombs travel more than 1000' before impacting.
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Originally posted by Warchief
A new perk point system should be used with bombers. Today I flew my lancaster at low lvl. Took out 90% of city 2 gun enplacement along with a fh. Given I lost all 3 bombers on the raid and I understand my perk points were going to be low. Only got 1.52 for the raid. The reaons I think it needs re vamped is I flew a F4u Corsair attack run and hit fewer targets and got shot down and still had more perk points after words than I did on my bomber run. I am not saying lets make getting pewrk points easier for bombers. But that less perk points should be taken away for losing 1 or 2 bombers and landing the last one. But then again perk points for bombers only go to the A234 which aint that great of a bomber. But still not asking for a whole new system but a little revamping to make it better and that way there would be more buff raids in the game.
You would have gotten 7.6 perks if you had managed to bring even 1 plane back to the field. I find it doubtful in the extreme that you hit less stuff with the Corsair since its' OBJ value is 10 and the Lancs is correct me if I'm wrong 25. Perhaps this is true but for every 1 thing you blow up in the Lanc you get 2.5 times as many perks for it. Given that last statement perhaps you should bone up on your aim since with 13+ times as much ord you should have flattened a great deal of stuff. As for increasing perks for bombers FORGET THE WHOLE IDEA. You can earn a whole lot of perks if you use the damn things the way they were intended instead of the ludicrous 1000' suicide bomber dweeb silly crap I've seen far to much. If you insist on flying a bomber in a way it wasn't supposed to be flown then I'm overjoyed that you are upset with earning a pathetic 1.52 perks. If on the other hand you want to take that Lanc up to 20,000' and level 2 different strategic targets you could earn 30+ perks land without a single death. Increase your Bomber score by ridiculous amounts. Tick off everyone in the target country instead of just the jerks flying at a single base. Cause several enemy fighters to be drug off the front lines to chase your strato butt around and in general mess up a lot of peoples days instead of just a few.
On the other hand you could stay down there on the deck, low and slow and cause me near orgasmic levels of joy when I see you down there in my crosshairs.
:rofl :lol :rofl
I'm not laughing with you I'm laughing at you.
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Originally posted by Shiva
Point of information. Bombs do not require 1000 feet of altitude to arm; they require 1000 feet of travel to arm. So a plane flying at 350 mph TAS 500' off the ground would be able to drop its bombs and have the bombs travel more than 1000' before impacting.
We're splitting hairs...but if you want to be perfectly correct, you are. :)