Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pongo on August 12, 2000, 02:10:00 PM
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Flying last night, I ran into some of what I consider to be the most dangorous pilots in AH. And it occured to me what they have in common.
In WW2 it is almost univerally aggreed that Eyesight and in particular Gunnery were the factors that made a particular pilot more dangorous. In AH where eyesight is all even it would stand to reason that something would take its place in the top attributes that a deadly pilot has in AH.
Here is my opinion.
The guys that I find the most dangorous are the guys that are hard to hit. Most of them in my expericance are not hard to get in your sights..(or not unduly so) but given a promising sight picture many of the deadlier pilots in AH will fly away from my shot while many others will be hit hard.
At the time I shoot they typically are not flying level or straight. They have thier AC in some kind of contortion or other. They are not warping. Their AC is not doing anything unnatural usualy. But when my rounds pass through their airspace. They keep going.
I dont think that a reasonable person would accuse me of being a bad shot. But I get an expectation that I will hit if I get the bogy into a certain situation..And against this group of players. I miss instead or lightly ping them..Often I have pushed the envelope for that high probability shot and I am left in trouble when it does not deliver.
I have come to the conculsion that the thing that took the place of Eyesight in AH as far as INDIVIDUAL deadlyness goes is fire evasion teqnique.
These guys have been told or figured out how to drasticaly reduce the incidence of damage they will sustain when fired appon.
This is of course not the primary reason for their effectivenss, they can shoot and fly like demons too. They often bring support and they have great SA. All the Best pilots in the game have those qualities. It is the fire evasion teqnigue that I think sets them appart.
Am I full of it...
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Somewhat.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I don't understand your reference to eyesight being even... The better monitors/systems/connects play a huge part in it. (taking the place of the keen eyesight)
what I see on my 15" 800x600 resolution is a LOT different than what someone with a 21" 1600x1200 high end graphics machine "can" see.. and the "can" is important here.
and Yes, I understand that not all the hot sticks have hot setups.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
While I have no doubt about the ability of some pilots to evade getting hit, the system etc. being used also plays a major role.
'of course, then there are guys like me, blind in 1 eye, can't see outta the other, regardless of system...
and can't hit the side of a barn even when standing parked on the inside...
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 08-12-2000).]
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I think its their gear. A pilot with thrust and rudder pedals has a very superior advantage over a keyboard-4 button/hat stick pilot. I flew AH from my cousin's system (he has all those toys) and its AMAZING how much E you can conserve *just* thanks to the fine-control those toys give you. A manouver I usually do in a 38, starting from 400 mph in my computer always exits at about 150-200 mph. With the toys I exited at 280-320 mph. Nice huh?
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Even with a crappy monitor, the neon billboards are stilly pretty big!
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Heh I wonder what RAM would be able to do if he had a good HOTAS rig (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I'm with Pongo on this.. there are those that no matter how well I set up the shot.. no joy.
Best example that comes to mind is Hblair.. He'd chopped through two of my squaddies at low alt in a tense furball.. looked like it was a three v one.. the one was Hblair.
I was about d20 out.. low dots vis; and I'm listening to the fight ON RW as I come barreling in. As I get closer, the numbers aginst Hblair get even worse for him.. now it's five v 1. Hblair is in a 109; in the weeds. Three guys are tight on him working for a shot.. 2 in front of him. Hblair gets one; instantly reverses his turn.. the three over shoot, he get one of them. He reverses his turn again.. a roll-away, and as I get on him I take a shot.. it goes wide. He's reversed direction again.. gone low. He tags another and reverses his direction again. No manuver is smooth.. the direction his nose is pointed is NOT where he's going.
I see the cross control moves he's using now.. impossible to land a tracking shot.
I pull up and over the fight; literally get above him and roll inverted to see which way he goes.. two more guys are making tracking shot passes at him. Both miss. One augers.
Now; truly amazed I update SA.. still 4 of us on him.. and he's gotten at least 4 of us while I watched. All of them via superb evasives and gunnery, all from the bottom of the E envelope in a plane not noted fer turn-fighting in the weeds.
This is an agressive and exceptionaly alert pilot.. he knows when he's in my gun envelope and he knows how to fox a tracking shot with a sideslip.. not excessive; just enuff to force the shot wide, and he retains enuff 'e' to capitalise on the overshoot.
I drop down for my second pass.. and squirt a shot at where he's going, Pull up briskly; roll inverted and come back to where he went the last time.. anticipating the roll-away reverse.
There he is.. crossing up; setting himself up for my overshoot. I'd say about 50 yards off his left side and crossing fast.. and I have one snapshot opportunity at very close range. If i miss; I'm meat.. he's perfectly positioned for my overshoot. I can see interseting details.. the canopy frame.. the flaps.. the control surfaces defected.. all frozen in a frame of time; square in my gunsights. One shot opportunity.. 'miss it and yah die Hang'... I squeeze...
THATS what Pongo is talking about.. pilots that have their plane so well dialed in.. have their SA so well locked, know how to use defensive/offensive manuvers and know exactly when and how to switch from defense to offense that you MUST get in close.. unreasonably close, 'blow the shot and yah die close' to get him. He forces the situation, no matter how badly outnumbered he may be, into a 'come on in here, hugahunk, and I'll kill yah' situation.. you either get him on that pass or he gets you. You think you are in a comfortable 2 or 3 v one.. and suddenly find yourself in a 'kill or be killed knife fight' in a heartbeat.
Pongo.. I agree. Some of us can fly offense.. some are pretty good shots. But it's the guys that can switch from defense to offense in a spit second in time and can force an apparently easy shot wide then capitalize on the overshoot that are the real killers in this sim. I defintly need to work on my defense.. and Hblair is an excelent teacher. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute Hblair. !
Hang
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:P
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Me with gas. One hit and the whole arena will turn into a fireball.
Or did you mean pilot skill?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Heh I wonder what RAM would be able to do if he had a good HOTAS rig (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL...and a good computer wich gives me more than 15 FPS wont hurt either...
But well I am happy with the F-16 combatstick and keyboard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
THANKS SAW!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Now cut that out hangtime! You're gonna cause my head to swell. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
No kidding, reading that story was cool, and knowing it was about me was even better. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Maybe that'll help keep my mind off the slump that I've been in lately.
No HOTAS here, just a microsoft stick and pedals. Cool thread jigster.
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HangTime,
I have to agree with you concerning hblair. He is the master of the "25ft-on the deck sissors" and kills you on the over shoot. Maybe if we swell his head until it bursts then he may go away! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S> hblair
Thunder
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My observation is more narrow than Hangs. Yes there are guys that can make moves that keep them just out of your sight picture(frenchy) and Hblair is definalty one of them. But jump ahead to the end game. you have commited to get that extra few points of nose up to get him right in your sight picture, just like you have seen many times before. It is definatly a high probability 250 yard shot at a manuvering target. You fire the rounds reach out and you notice his plane is not smooth, its not warping but its using opisite controls for pitch and yaw or somthing or then nose is osiclating or something. The rounds pass right through his airspace without a white spark.
Was it an
OOOOhhhh I missed,
or did his control inputs at the time of the shot have something to do with the end result. In combination with manuver skills and sa like some of these guys have coming out of a pass like that without a scratch is often the decisive factor.
I bring this up for several reasons.
It is not unique to one pilot. It is not new. It has been happening since beta. It has no basis in reality. The plane has a volume, projectiles enter an area largly poplulated by that volume, no amout of movement within that volume will lessen the chance of the projectiles hitting.
I have seen pilots in 190s roll about thier axis when in a bad situation. As if the fact that the plane is rolling in place will lessen the chance of rounds hitting that are other wise on target. It should not. But I have seen F4us and 190s both servive with this teqnique.
There are pilots here that at a point in a combat stop trying to defeat the other pilot and work on defeating the gunfire algorithms. They are successfull at it.
Thats what I think anyway.
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Gotta second that about hblair. Me and Kirin were winging at 33, and had loads and loads of fighters coming. We were both very low on fuel, so we decide to rtb. Kirin reports a 109 closing on his 6, so i reverse and go for the kill (mg's only, unfortunately). I get some good hits, the 109 starts scissors. Piece a cake I think. Then he suddenly drops his nose in a negative g maneuver and that throws me totally off.
We decide to rtb and make glider landings. Reup, and lo and behold, a 109 closing in our hi 6. I go left, kirin right; the chase is on. Soon I find myself in a favourable position; enemy starts scissoring. I think "where have I seen this before?", put stick forward just as enemy does, and this time enough cannon rounds hit the target to get it.
That was hblair, again. My first pass in the earlier sortie had taken out his alieron, and he *still* managed a decent scissors.
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I've seen that quite alot Pongo and it has got me puzzled too.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 08-13-2000).]
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Pongo, IMO, you are describing the "pilots hardest to kill". I know a bunch of them. But the real danger ones are those that will kill you over'n over, and you'll see those ones very few times on deffensive. I also know some of them, and once you got the advantage, they are usually dead (not good ones evading). These pilots dont play a flight sim, they seem to play a chess game.
IMO, these pilots are not the best ones, but, with no doubt, they are the most dangerous.
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GreyB, I think Hardware doesn't have that much to do..example :
I run AH in 1600/1200 (avg 35FPS) and have a Hotas (Fighterstick & pedals....still gotta get that Throttle). Ram is prolly in 800/600 with 15FPS and will Kill me whenever I meet him...
Let's speak about Torque, who also runs on 800/600... I could only get him while he was flying a goon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (Sorry 'boiut that one, sir (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Some poeple realy have the knack of getting out of my firing envelope (Wardog, Spatula, Funked, etc...) I can't seem to evade a 30mm shell fired at me at D10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) !
<S!> to you guys !
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SAW/Saintaw
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw323.jpg)
"It's supposed to be hard; that's what makes it great!"
Tom Hanks, A League of Their Own
.squelch creamo
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
I run AH in 1600/1200 (avg 35FPS) and have a Hotas (Fighterstick & pedals....still gotta get that Throttle). Ram is prolly in 800/600 with 15FPS and will Kill me whenever I meet him...
In fact I run at 1024*768, 16 bit colour. I average 15FPS as at high altitudes I get something near 20-25 while at low altitudes 11-13FPS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and over fields 9-10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I tried running at 800/600. The difference was minimal (maybe 1-2FPS at medium-high altitudes, no difference at all at low altitudes)...
And BTW I dont think I'd kill you that easy..."Laser" RAM was a myth,and you know it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I think mandoble got it perfectly, its a chess game. I have average ACM skills, but do pretty good because I pick and choose my fights, I always have an exit route in my head before I start the attack. I usually am thinking 2 or 3 moves ahead and what my actions will be. I know quite a few guys with AWESOME stick skills that can eat my lunch daily, Udie being one of um, but dont choose to fight the way I do. Does that make one better then the other? Dunno really, just glad Udie is a squaddie. btw I fly under the Skyhawk handle.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
[This message has been edited by Dnil (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pongo:
As if the fact that the plane is rolling in place will lessen the chance of rounds hitting that are other wise on target.
This sort of rings a bell. Wasn't there something like this in that other brand? Or at least a discussion of this exact situation?
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Originally posted by Toad:
This sort of rings a bell. Wasn't there something like this in that other brand? Or at least a discussion of this exact situation?
Well, it was said that flying on only one axis at a time in combat is a sure way to die...that kicks in alot for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice cross wind being an example (well the only thing closer to combat I've gotten was when I engaged a bunch of sea gulls, had to explain to the owner that only one bird strike was a miracle because there were millions of them. Flew back missing the wind screen. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) )
"Kick the rudder! Kick the rudder! Your sinking like the Titanic! Pull up and roll! Roll bastard roll! Lay off the rudder! Cross control! Don't crab the damn plane! Land that sum squeak! More throttle! Pull up pull up!"
My first cross wind landing sucked, to say the least. There outta be a law against letting former military pilots tech private pilot lessons. Yeash.
- Jig
Master of making a topic illrelavent.
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-14-2000).]
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There are pilots here that at a point in a combat stop trying to defeat the other pilot and work on defeating the gunfire algorithms. They are successfull at it.
By this I take it you mean the guy stops flying the plane for an angles advantage at the moment he's aware he's a target, flys to fox the shot, then resumes flying for angles after the immenent danger of being shredded passes??
Damn.. novel concept!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
By this I take it you mean the guy stops flying the plane for an angles advantage at the moment he's aware he's a target, flys to fox the shot, then resumes flying for angles after the immenent danger of being shredded passes??
Damn.. novel concept!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yes. but its the trying to fox the shot not by getting out of the firing cone of the enemy but instead controting the aircraft in some way that the rounds have a diminished chance to hit.
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Agree with Hang..
hb is a damn good stick when caught low. Most memorable fight was against him with me in a Yak and him in his 109. I had him daed bang 3x, the last siccors put him across my whole screen at under 100yrds. My whole screen was full of that little 109,and i missed, LOL...
Cant believe i missed,i got on the radio and said, Damn HB,my monitor was full of your 109 &..... And i missed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not once,but 3 times,i was close enough to see him wearing his mothers Combat Boots.......And i missed!
HB is allways a pleasure to fight.
Dog out...............
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Pongo,
I think you are saying there must be some way of "gaming the game" by certain ways of rolling, etc?
Is this what you are getting at?
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Originally posted by Toad:
Pongo,
I think you are saying there must be some way of "gaming the game" by certain ways of rolling, etc?
Is this what you are getting at?
Thats what it feels like, but it may be realisic? Certain pilots do it very reqularly.
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I had a long discussion on private channel and on private rw last night with a pilot that we will call...
N
N does what I am talking about here. But he couldnt understand what I was talking about when I talked to him. He kept focusing on his overshoot teqnique which is only part of the equation. I asked him how did he survive to force the over shoot when I had a perfectly good shot at him?
This was a very friendly and informative discussion with a fellow FW pilot. We met later by chance in the TA and had lots of chances to see hit avoidance in action.
I learned that the moves that N used to signifigantly lessen his chances of getting hit were almost purly reflex. I would make a run on him and watch it develop into a solution that was going to hurt bad. I could start to expect what he was going to do and when. In discussion it seemed that he could not identify it. He was behaving instictivly to the oncoming attack, Even after me keeping above him for 20-25 minutes and making probably 8 runs on him as he stalled out to reach me, he still performed the action the same way every time, and still did not know for sure what I meant.
I would say that in the abscence of that move I would have killed him 6 times.(I bounced him while he was dispatching another plane) I knew that I could not fly with him. Even though he was in an A8 and I was in an A5. I knew that if I tried to mix it up I was dead.
(This skill is meaningless by itself. In combination with all the things that make a good pilot it is deadly)
Finally I had learned a few things, we where both out of wep and I did what I would typically do, push the envelope to try for a real hard hit. I took an increadably hard hit at him, did next to nothing, we moved into the very high sided scissors that the fw does so well. It took him about 5 tries to get behind me which I thought was pretty good for me.
The first shot he got on me was all he neaded.
Now I will admit that N is a better flyer then I. I am certainly as good a shot as him, My SA is just as good(at least at less then knife fight range, I kept him ropadoped for 30 min.
But the result was almost preordained. I could not hit him no matter the quality of my run.
N did not cheat, but I would estimate that he managed to nullify 85-95 % of the cannon rounds that would have hit him.
For a pilot like me that is not spectacular at ACM, who relies on gaining position, maintaining E and administering a heavy fight ending hit, N is a nightmare.
I learned a few things as well.
N uses a rudder stick combo, I think this kind of controler might have instinctive advantages for this kind of evasion.
Ns teqnique is definatly more effective vs players that hold their fire till a killing range is achieved, he has to nullify fewer rounds, he does not lose E for as long do to his fluctuations and the enemy is liky to be in a more exposed position after overshoot. Someone that starts shooting at 1k is probably way more dangorous to N.
Of course weapons that allow long shots like .50 cal and hispano are more dangorous to him.
N a big salute
If I misrepresented anything in our joint experiace last night correct me or if you like email me and I will post your point of view on it.
I think that this is not very realistic, I will state again that a cone of fire passing through the airspace occupied by an aircraft does not give a crap about the small fluctuations of the target aircraft. It is a side effect of the way the game is or has to be implemented over such diverse locals with so many client computers I guess.
But I think that teqnique is what has replaced eyesight as the thing that really makes some of the pilots more individually deadly then most.
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I would still like to see a film from your POV, that would help me judge if its realistic or not.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://www.mindspring.com/~nathownsj00/JG54Sig.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps