Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on September 12, 2003, 11:35:22 AM
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We all remembered 911/2001 yesterday. The airborne attacks we not just a crime against America, but against the western world.
I also read all the posts in the “where were you on that day” thread. People reacted to the disaster in some very different ways. I couldn’t bring myself to talk about it for a couple of months. But for many, including a couple of people from the other thread, the reaction was to grab a gun, oil it up, and reload it ready for use. One person even “thanked God for the right to own guns”, a statement you might agree with, or one which contains one or even two counts of misplaced faith, depending on your point of view. In the aftermath of 911/2001, gun sales in America soared, and sales of ammunition increased by 70%! I pondered over that for a while. Why would anyone think that possession of a gun might be a safeguard against organised terrorist hijackers? Does Al Qa’eda have any history of making house calls? Erm... no. It kind of reminded me about that nutty guy in NY state who was so paranoid about Y2K that he built his own shelter in a remote area, constructed from parts salvaged from 45 yellow school buses! And then Y2K came and went, and... nothing.
As I understand it, the US coastline is protected by an identification system which requires all aircraft to report their presence and intentions within 60 miles of the nearest coastal point. If an aircraft has not done so within 10 miles of the coast, it faces military interception. Great, but what about the danger from within? I had been amazed (until 2001) at the ease with which one could board an aircraft in the US, compared to the same thing here. It was as if terrorism did not exist on US soil...
...and that was the Achilles heel that provided the terrorists with their window of opportunity. US Immigration makes checks on every foreigner entering the country. I have to fill in a form when I come, and answer questions like ”Have you ever been a member of the Communist party?”, and ”Have you ever belonged to the party governing Nazi Germany 1933-1945?” – hardly likely for the vast majority of modern air travellers.
And yet, once inside the country, security was very much relaxed. Seems like the terrorists had that figured out.
We’ve had our gun debates, and this isn’t going to be another one. But I do wonder about the “gun grabbers” when an incident of national security arises. My feeling is that too many people place too much faith in the protection that a gun offers, and grossly overestimate the likelihood of needing one – not that such a scenario never occurs.
But what is far more likely is an attack from within. The average person in the western world is far more likely to die from an avoidable accident in the home, or from a disease stemming from lack of exercise, bad diet, obesity, smoking or alcohol abuse.
But just as the US itself is vigilant against attacks from outside, and relaxed about the threat from within, so it could be said of the average gun owning home owner, who is unlikely to be attacked from outside, and much more likely to find that his seeds of doom were the contents of his refrigerator, that easy chair in front of the TV, and the lifestyle that results.
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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....:rolleyes:
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Not sure I get the point of your post, but I'll ramble on anyway :D
I was wishing I had a gun on 9/11/01 too, but I didn't. You have to understand one thing. This was the first time our homeland was attacked in our lifetimes. By that I mean the in the lifetime of every person born in the USA who was alive on 9/11.
There were so many things running through my mind. One of them was actually, are the Russians behind this? Is this the start of a "Red Dawn"? Are there terrrorist in place here in country that have guns now and are going to do "all out war"? I was wanting a gun just in case my paranoia was true, thankfully it wasn't :)
That's another thing to remember. If we're ever attacked here by an army. Well, there are millions of people who will jump out their front doors shooting ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
But for many, including a couple of people from the other thread, the reaction was to grab a gun, oil it up, and reload it ready for use.
Yeah, I had the same reaction as you did. WTF with grabbing a gun? Like the terrorists are going to come down the street in an unmarked pickup truck with a machine gun mounted on top and start their urban assault in that person's neighborhood? :rolleyes:
When security gets ramped up, a gun is the last thing I want in my vehicle or on my person. I've seen episodes of "COPS", I know how police react to weapons - "Get him! He's got a gun!" and by the time the perp is in the back of the cruiser he looks like Rodney King drinking Olde English in Los Angeles.
The only gun I wanted was the one the US Gov't would issue me in bootcamp, if I wasn't too old to enlist.
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"""Does Al Qa’eda have any history of making house calls? Erm... no""""
did Al Qa’eda have any history of using air planes to attack buildings? Erm....no
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I woulda rather had a baseball bat, seriously I felt like going into the city center and looking for some dancing islam types that day. Especially after they showed em on tv.
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In case of a national emergency, the main reason a gun would make one feel safer is as a protection against looters and other dirtbags who may want to take advantage of the situation. Depending on where you live, that could be a real issue under certain circumstances.
ra
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Mine was already oiled. I just had to get out the ammo.
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I have to fill in a form when I come, and answer questions like ”Have you ever been a member of the Communist party?”, and ”Have you ever belonged to the party governing Nazi Germany 1933-1945?” – hardly likely for the vast majority of modern air travellers
You are welcome to stay home and avoid these questionaires. We would prefer it actually, we have enough asxholes in this country already, we don't need another one.
Dago
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Originally posted by ra
In case of a national emergency, the main reason a gun would make one feel safer is as a protection against looters and other dirtbags who may want to take advantage of the situation. Depending on where you live, that could be a real issue under certain circumstances.
ra
Zackley right
Now you are thinking, after Andrew it was very much a requirement as there was no law.
It has been said we are never more then about three meals away from anarchy.
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Seconded, the reason I got a gun was not because I thought Bin Laden was going to blast through Mar Vista with a Bradley, but in case there were more attacks on our soft infrastructure that could have potentially cut off access to water, food, etc. If that happened, there might have been a breakdown of societies rules and my wife and I would have needed to watch out for ourselves and not be able to depend on John Law.
Remember, I live in LA, and ten years ago, big chunks of LA were burning because of mass riots and looting because one guy was beaten. When that happened, I was ashamed of my country. It's one thing to believe in the strength of character of your fellow man, but in light of past events, I'll back up my optimism with insurance care of Mossberg, Ruger, and Glock.
If you really think the gun owners getting prepared was because they thought terrorists would attack them, you're missing hte point.
That aside, it's obvious to us now that it was terrorists. But on 9-11-2001, it could have been China starting an attack for all we knew.
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[i
That's another thing to remember. If we're ever attacked here by an army. Well, there are millions of people who will jump out their front doors shooting ;) [/B]
that was the original intent yes...though its hardly a well orginized militia but it works
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beetle, if you think that's weird, you should visit a gun enthusiast message board sometime. A hot topic of discussion is SHTF (**** hits the fan) scenarios and TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) and exactly what weaponry is suitable for such situations. And they're serious.
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Originally posted by Erlkonig
beetle, if you think that's weird, you should visit a gun enthusiast message board sometime. A hot topic of discussion is SHTF (**** hits the fan) scenarios and TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) and exactly what weaponry is suitable for such situations. And they're serious.
Much weirder than a bunch of guys screaming at each other about which computer plane flys better than it should :rolleyes:
And don't tell me that Fd-ski isn't serious about Spits. ;)
Here, go to this website: http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi and see a bunch of gun nuts argue about who makes a better hunting rifle, Winchester or Remington. (Win does of course)
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Personaly IMHO if you wait for something bad to happen and then go buy a gun you are getting it for the wrong reason. I have been a gun owner since I was 10 years old when my dad bought me my first 22. Some call me a "gun nut" and that's ok, its what I like to do. I wory as much about shooting sub-moa as some people do about keeping there rice rockets in top shape. If having a hobby that happens to be not so popular with the general population makes me crazy than so be it. When 9-11 happened, I was not supprised in the least. Hurt, angry, sad... yes very much so, supprised...no. You run around with a blind fold on long enough you are going to fall smack on your face sooner or later. A lot of people say we don't need guns, we have the police. Well 99% of the time the cops dont get there till after the crime is commited and then it is too late. You can't stop something from happening after it already happened., and people usualy call 911 after a crime has occured. Contrary to popular belief, most of us "gun nuts" don't sleep with a pistol under our pillow. For home defense I chose common sense, guns are always a last resort. I wont live in a place that has a high crime rate, but I still lock my doors at night and I have a 95lb dog that sleeps in the room with my wife and I. I do have several pistols but they are all in a fire proof safe with the rest of my collection for 2 reasons. 1: I have a very courious 16month old that gets into everything and having guns where he can get to them even if I "know" they are not loaded is just not going to happen. 2: I have thought long and hard and came to the decision that my house is much more likely to burn down than get robbed when I'm home.
Back to 9-11, while everyone else was scurring around buying water, batteries, canned food, I went scouting for deer as season was opening in just a few days. SOme may make fun of me because I keep a few extra canned goods around, have some extra water stored, always keep extra ammo for all my guns, and never let any of my vehicles get below 1/2 a tank of gas before filling it up. Just look at this last power outage, all these people that run around with 2 gal of gas in there car suddenly found them selves scrounging for gas. Worst case senerio for me is I have a couple of days to find gas or weight for the power to come back on. So no, I didn't buy any guns on 9-11 or soon after, I already had them. I guess it is just a leason learned from my boyscout days, "be prepared". It never hurts.
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I don't own a gun
after 9/11 I had an urge to buy a gun but did not ..instead i rediscovered our rosary
if we are hit as hard or harder economically, I will buy a gun for the reason Ra stated above ....
You do realize if the economy were to slip into the 5h1t3r & a great depression followed ( OBL's goal)... the riots wouldn't be far off - and they already have weapons
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Good morning, Gentlemen and Dago.
I already know why many of you choose to own guns because we've had gun debates on this board before. But I think most of you are focussing on the gun issue, and not what I went on to say about the threat from within. But first things first...
Seems quite a few people thought that the 911 attacks could have been an attack by the Russians or by China! :eek: Hardly likely, given the ending of the cold war. Hardly likely that either country would initiate an attack without there being some political tensions and build up to the event that would have been in the news on CNN. And hardly likely that any such airborne attack could be mounted, unnoticed by America's coastal defence system and CIA satellites. So I wonder why that's the first thought that enters the minds of some.
But my real point was that so many people worry about scary situations like the Russians invading (unlikely in the extreme) but overlook the very much more real factors that might lead to their demise. Even if there was a military coup in your own country, can you imagine it being fought off by a bunch of guys wearing jeans, T-shirts and reverse baseball caps, armed with semi auto handguns? lol.
At the same time, if you would look around, you might see folks who are massively overweight, take no exercise, and perhaps smoke heavily. They probably also own guns. But which fate is more likely to befall them? An attack from Russia which can be fought off with a rifle, or a debilitating condition arising from their unhealthy lifestyle?
Cigarettes kill more than 400,000 people a year in the US. That's the same as about 140 911s. Chances are that a good many of those folks were gun owners, worried about being attacked by Russia or China, or men from Mars. But they completely overlook the REAL enemy, the enemy within their own environs.
People should stop being paranoid about Russia/China/Y2K etc., and focus on the REAL threats to their lives.
Cigarette mortality source: http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/research_data/health_consequences/mortali.htm
Erlkonig - can you post the URLs to those paranoia links? I'd be interested to see...
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So if we can quit cigarettes we can keep our guns?
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I carry a gun in my car, have one by my bedstand, and 4 in the closet (safed). What was the point again Beet1e? :D
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Originally posted by Erlkonig
beetle, if you think that's weird, you should visit a gun enthusiast message board sometime. A hot topic of discussion is SHTF (**** hits the fan) scenarios and TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) and exactly what weaponry is suitable for such situations. And they're serious.
Ummm so basically if one has an arsenal in America it's protect you from the locals? ie other Americans?
It's starting to make sense by Gad!!
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I have guns.
They are very polished.
And I am always a quiet and considerate neighbor.
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Seems quite a few people thought that the 911 attacks could have been an attack by the Russians or by China!
Everyone I was with during 9-11 and its immediate aftermath knew it was an Islamic attack from the get-go. I never heard anyone mention Russia or China, nor was there anyone doubting who did it.
At the same time, if you would look around, you might see folks who are massively overweight, take no exercise, and perhaps smoke heavily.
Your point is elusive. People are people.
Cigarettes kill more than 400,000 people a year in the US.
Cigarettes shorten lifespans. The average lifespan in the US is similar to most other industrialized nations, the CDC probably has a chart for you.
You are getting creepy Beetle. Terrorism and lifestyles are completly unrelated issues. You should start your own surrealist website.
ra
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Ive got a Mossburg aimed at the monitor as I type cause ya never know.One of dem dare commies might crawll right up outta dare and I wanna blast em.:rolleyes:
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Rip! LOL - at least I had a point. :p;)
ra, either you don't understand, or you're losing your manipulative touch, or you're just plain thick - which I don't believe. What I'm saying is quite simple - as perhaps it needs to be. Some people, if other threads are to be believed, clearly thought that the US might have been in the process of being invaded by the Russians/Chinese on 911/2001. Many people who thought that and rushed out to oil their guns and buy thousands of rounds of ammo were probably smokers and/or overweight - as many folks are in America. (I'm going to say it, because you guys taunt us about our nation's dental health - fair's fair, eh?) Their fears for their personal safety (read long term prospects in this life) are clearly misplaced, if what scares them the most is Russians/Chinese/Men from Mars/US Govt military coup etc. A much greater threat to their lives can be found within their own environment - smoking, unhealthy diet. But whereas they hotfoot it down to the gun shop, driven by their paranoia about foreign invasion, they are totally complacent about the dangers of heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, cirrhosis of the liver etc... Terrorism and lifestyles are completly unrelated issues.
Terrorists kill. Unhealthy lifestyles kill more slowly. But more people die from the latter than the former. Current health warning on a packet of cigs here is "Smoking Kills". What is it in the US?
Of course, I might be biased. But hopefully unlike most here, I have attended the funeral of a fellow flightsimmer who died as a result of smoking. He was younger than I was.
America living in fear? Maybe Michael Moore had a point after all...
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Terrorists kill. Unhealthy lifestyles kill more slowly. But more people die from the latter than the former.
And they are unrelated.
Your point seems to be that as long as people are dying from smoking and over-eating, terrorism should be seen as a relatively minor issue. That is an off the wall idea to me. You just seem to be using the 2nd anniversay of 9-11 as an excuse to poke fun of fat, smoking Americans.
These people who fear China/Russia/Martians do not exist in any significant numbers, so rest easy. Michael Moore's only point is on the tip of his head.
What kills people in the UK? I'm too lazy to do a Google search.
ra
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Beetle, I'm sorry about your friend who died. However, nothing else you've mentioned goes together:
1. I don't remember anyone who thought the Rooskies were attacking us on 9/11.
2. It was women who bought the most guns after 9/11. Not the mythical "smoker/survivalist".
In fact, this delusion you have that people who own guns are smokers and are killing themselves is somewhat curious. If not laughable. In fact the 23% of Americans smoke while in the UK one number I saw was 27%. I would be really interested in seeing the study that links gun ownership to tobacco use.
:rolleyes:
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You are a very, very strange man beet1e.
I don't understand you or your point and I suppose I never will.
You seem very, very fixated on guns. Sounds like a fetish to me.
Please stop writing about guns. Who cares how many American have guns, want guns or even dreams of guns.
Perhaps you should start writing about how many British men write about guns in America.
Thank you and goodnight.
Have a nice day.
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Oh well, at least the reactions I'm getting explain the complacency that some people have regarding the real threats to their lives. :rolleyes:
And that's what this thread is about. It's not about guns. It's about real threats to people's lives versus perceived threats to people's lives. Drunky, please take note. :)
Dune - if you would look at banana's thread, (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96009) you will see that some folks thought the US was under attack - one thought by the Russians, another the Chinese! Can you explain to me why so many women bought guns after 911/2001? Were they afraid that there might be a knock on the door from OBL, or was there another reason? I would be really interested in seeing the study that links gun ownership to tobacco use.
You are deliberately avoiding my point. Folks buy guns to safeguard their lives from a perceived threat from outside. I'm not saying that people in the US are wrong to do that, if that's what they choose, even though in the vast majority of cases that perceived threat (burglar, Russian, OBL etc.) will never materialise. But many, many more lives (400,000+ per annum, if the CDC is to be believed) are at risk from real threats, and will be ended prematurely - many abruptly - by heart attacks or by other diseases stemming from smoking. But, like you guys, so many think of the real dangers from cigs as someone else's problem - "it can't happen to me..." Anyway, thanks for your sympathy for my friend who died. He was a hell of a guy. He went out of his way to help me out flying 109s in Brand-W, and he came over as a guy who exuded life, and had everything to live for. He died a week later. At his funeral, as the family arrived all dressed in black, I sat there and thought "what a freaking waste of a life"...
ra - sorry, not wanting to make fun of people who are overweight. Just trying to face the issue. Let's not turn this into a US v UK pissing contest. I can't draw the same comparisons here - no guns - so when we experience a terrorist attack (IRA bomb goes off in central London, for example) people can't rush out to buy guns... We're more used to terrorism than you are - 30+ years of IRA bombing on mainland Britain.
I'm almost finished...
I used to be a "light" smoker. Until 22 years ago. I was working in Schaumburg,IL and there was a larger than life guy in my office - popular with everyone - and a heavy smoker. One morning, he collapsed. The ambulance came, and they got him down to it. The ambulance didn't pull away for about 10 minutes - I realised later they were trying to resuscitate him inside the ambulance. Later that day, we got the phone call - and there were tears all around the office. I remember walking past his office - his ashtray and mound of cig butts was still there. And I thought about the guy who smoked them and thought "that could be me in 30 years..." and I kicked the habit a few weeks later.
A question: Which of the following choices would have had the greatest effect to prolong my life: Is it a) buying a gun to protect myself and my property from an outside threat, or is it b) quitting smoking while there was still time ?
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the gun... well... better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have it. I allso like the deterent effect. in the U.S. we have maybe more bad people than in limeyland but.... we have way less burglaries.... many less "hot" (where the homeowner is home) than england... burglars don't want to be shot.... the police laugh at em or kick the corpse.
plus... guns are fun to collect, work on and shoot. Plus... we certainly don't want our government knowing that we are unarmed. Not this adminestration or the last or the one that will follow... keep em a little honest.
lazs
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Beetle,
In a very simple statement I think I can answer your question,
People felt scared and not in control that day.
I know for a short while before they got the lid on things I wondered where the next attack was coming from. We really felt scared that other attacks were immanent and would happen everywhere. Nightclub bombings attacks at schools and playgrounds, shopping malls etc. Americans wanted some semblance of safety and control in our lives to replace the fear and anger we felt. I have observed the flock rushing to the store for bottled water when a Hurricane warning is issued, and wondered why they don't already have it stocked for the season., Most folks just see others on TV and need to do something, need to feel in control, so out they go to be with others and take action to relieve fear and stress. As silly as it may seem to you, history reminds us of a gun shortage in your country in the 30's and American citizens sending you their own firearms to arm your citizens from the immanent invasion from Germany. Could this be part of the reason for your country’s seeming fascination in our firearms or is it from our western movies? I can see in my minds eye the fear and helplessness in your country man being relieved holding the means of there future in the form of a 12 ga. shotgun provided by there brothers from across the pond.
I really think ist not much different then owning a generator, I own many firearms, I collect them as a hobby for the history they hold, I also own non-historic firearms that I consider tools and fit a purpose. I neither sleep with them in my bed nor fondle them they, like my generator they are tools and are used as such.
Americans also bought a lot of booze and cigarettes that week due to the attacks to help feel better, also ice cream and junk food, just human nature.
Something else I noticed, folk’s talked to each other more, we came together in coffee shops and news stands to just be together and talk. We got closer that day, you see we were all Americans and we all had been attacked, I took comfort in this most of all.
Regards,
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Personally I feel that this gun fetish where people collect weapons that they don't need and will never use to defend themselves is all due to a combination of latent homosexuality combined with extremely small noodle size.....much like those that drive around in sports cars.....
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I agree. Ted Nugent never got much poontang.
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I think the anti gun fetish where people worry about other people collecting weapons and worrying if they'll need or will need to defend themselves is all due to a combination of latent homosexuality combined with an extreme interest in our noodle size.
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Could this be part of the reason for your country’s seeming fascination in our firearms or is it from our western movies?
That's a broad brush stroke. Most of us couldn't give a rat's bellybutton about how many guns Americans have.
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Oh, and Beetle, should I gain weight and take up smoking to make the theory fit?
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Beetle, a hint on using the BBS, make your point short and sweet, before the audience dies of bordom. Smoking cigars seems less risky, geez.
You can own a gun to protect yourself from a small chance of a life threatening situation, you can smoke alot in the mean time too and ultimatley shorten your life, sure. Or you can not own a gun, not smoke at all and get killed in a home robbery tomarrow by an armed robber.
How you pull this all together as relavent I don't know, I didn't risk death sifting through all your self entertaining BS BBS paragraphs.
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Or you can own a gun because they are fun to collect. Or fun to shoot at targets. Or because you use them to hunt with. Or because they make good doorstops.
Someday I'll figure out why you all think that if I own a gun, it must mean that I live every second waiting for the boogyman to jump out and get me. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
plus... guns are fun to collect, work on and shoot. Plus... we certainly don't want our government knowing that we are unarmed. Not this adminestration or the last or the one that will follow... keep em a little honest.
lazs
lazs...your gun stance and drug stance are at polar opposites.
It is your "right" to own guns and government should stay out of the issue and allow you to do whatever you want (legally) with them.
Yet in the legalise drugs thread you advocate strict control over their usage, even suggesting that anyone who even had traces of weed in their systems should have their licences revoked. Revoked by whom? Government right?
Weird....and hypocritical in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Dune
Or you can own a gun because they are fun to collect. Or fun to shoot at targets. Or because you use them to hunt with. Or because they make good doorstops.
Someday I'll figure out why you all think that if I own a gun, it must mean that I live every second waiting for the boogyman to jump out and get me. :rolleyes:
That too, good point. I can't remember buying my 12 guage and choosing choke tubes for people. It was just nice to know if the bump in the night indeed was a threat, I'm not totally helpless.
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Here, you want to compare the danger of guns to a real danger? Try this:
In 1997 alone (the last year for which data are available), 742 children under the age of 10 drowned in the United States last year alone. Approximately 550 of those drownings – about 75 percent of the total – occurred in residential swimming pools. According to the most recent statistics, there are about six million residential pools, meaning that one young child drowns annually for every 11,000 pools.
About 175 children under the age of 10 died in 1998 as a result of guns. About two-thirds of those deaths were homicides. There are an estimated 200 million guns in the United States. Doing the math, there is roughly one child killed by guns for every one million guns.
Thus, on average, if you both own a gun and have a swimming pool in the backyard, the swimming pool is about 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is.
by Steven D. Levitt, Professor of Economics, University of Chicago
Ban swimming pools!!!!!
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The pools are overmodeled.Perk them.
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Cars kill a bunch more.... dont ya just love statistics:D
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Yea look at the Yahoo boards sometime.I swear theres people that have stats to prove Blacks are responsable for everything from the crusifixion of Christ to the global warming.Stats are a beautyfull thing I guess Sheesh.:rolleyes:
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Concise version for Creamo: Many people arm themselves against perceived threats from outside in an attempt to prolong their lives. But millions more lives could be prolonged were some of those same people to guard against real dangers by discarding risky habits and by adopting healthier lifestyles. There. Now have another tumbler full of vodka, and when you've slept it off, post back to tell me what kind it was.
Scootter! Thanks for your post. At least you went some way to explain it. I appreciate that. It's easy for me to forget that apart from the 1993 and 2001 attacks at WTC and also the Pentagon and the PA plane crash, there never had been any terrorist outrage on US soil. I guess people didn't know how to react to it. It's a whole different situation here after 30 years of IRA atrocities. I can't look at an isolated brown paper package in a public place without thinking the worst. I was once evacuated from a concert hall because of a bomb threat, and a pub I used to visit in Guildford was blown apart by a bomb shortly after my last visit. At train stations, left luggage lockers were withdrawn from use because of the posibility of being used for bombs. Even my local station, like many others, has no litter bins for the same reason.
Lazs! From which thread did you cut and paste your posts? Is that the real Lazs? Because I didn't see anything about "moving the fields closer together". Muhahaha! :D ;) Only 32 more days to the WCMC - see you there. :cool:
Dune - just a reminder. To give an example (and pre-empt ra) a thread about "travelling across Europe by car" would be about the journey, and would not be a thread about cars just because the word car was in the title. I realise the title of this thread contains the G word, but it's not about guns - same principle applies.
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Originally posted by beet1e
. Folks buy guns to safeguard their lives from a perceived threat from outside.
For me, the time to have a gun is when the government can't protect you from local threats, such as when you are out in the wilderness or in the midst of 'urban unrest'.
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Could be because I'm going camping, I will get hungry, and I feel like claw traps are inhumane?
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