Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sonofagun on September 15, 2003, 11:10:52 AM
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Headed home out of ammo I see an LA7 and P51 buzzing the field. Rather than harass these guys in my 109G10 with no bullets, I turn west and head for friendlier skies. However, I caught the attention of the P51 pilot who was only d800 or so away and co-alt. I pour on the WEP and enter a slight dive and increase the distance to D900 when I see tracer rounds passing by. D950 I hear some pings. No problem, though, just a couple of lucky hits. I hear some more pings and bogey is 1k behind me. Thinking I was out of range by now, I never bothered with evasives. I hear another ping then bang (you all know the sound) and all of a sudden I have no control and start yawing. I glance back and the P51 is at D1.1. P51 - 1 109 - 0.:confused:
My question now is, where do you pick up that .50 cal sniper rifle? Is that only available with the P51?:(
Anyway, to the guy (don't remember who) and his sharpshooting. :)
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Always do evasives when .50 cals or hizookas are behind you. If it's a P-38, keep doing evasives out to d1.5.
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Jep, .50cal is laser weapon
But
Maybe dudes ping time is greater than yours. In his FE you was much closer...
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It is known that .50 cal posesses such powers it will blow up the plane after few hits up to 1500 yards...
hmm.. maybe it's just lil overpowered in AH :>
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Well, coming from a jug driver if your flying level you could be killed..
I would try to kill you 1200 yards out in a Jug.. it's just simple raise of the nose till the tracers fly over then said a/c then bring the nose back down a bit each time.. just walking the tracers back down.
I can say that if I can I'll make my kills (Jug/P-15D) at or around 600-800 yards. If I fly the P-51B 250-300 yards because the gun's and the ammo are lacking.
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The big culprit in all this is not the range of the guns, HT said this was accurate. It's the hit sprites that make or break a kill at long range and if I recall correctly HT has said that the hit sprites won't be changed.
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Wow fishu... nice to see you show up when you want to get some digs in.
A plane that is 950 yards behind you on your FE can be as close as 600 yards on his FE... depending on his speed and the amount of lag.
Next time... bother with evasives.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
Wow fishu... nice to see you show up when you want to get some digs in.
A plane that is 950 yards behind you on your FE can be as close as 600 yards on his FE... depending on his speed and the amount of lag.
Next time... bother with evasives.
MiniD
SHHHHH! I like it when people try to extend on autopilot.
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Originally posted by Puck
SHHHHH! I like it when people try to extend on autopilot.
Well, secret's out now. Lesson learned! TKS for all the input.:D
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Whats funny is Spits will tear you up with their 2 50cal. out to 1.3k or so. (not even mentioning the hizooka.) But the P-51Bs 4x50cal are about useless at d 300 IMO long tracking shots only thing that work with them.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Wow fishu... nice to see you show up when you want to get some digs in.
Just speak for your self there :D
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WW2OL must be pretty dull or something.
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Originally posted by Toad
WW2OL must be pretty dull or something.
Thanks for bringing WWIIOL here... I never said or even thought of it here.
Long before WWIIOL I were already critisizing the .50cals long range effectiveness along with the hizookas.
So give me a break.
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But I think the concept is very nice.
Wouldn't it be cool to look to the skies as a foot soldier, and see friendly planes pass by, while you march through soggy dirt roads in France? :)
If you don't expect precise realism, and try to enjoy the overall aura of it.. yeah, I think it's worth a try. :)
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Yeah, but you've really just lately resumed your nearly continual criticism here. I simply figured that WW2OL has at last lost its mystical hold on you.
Too bad; I missed you like a toothache.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, but you've really just lately resumed your nearly continual criticism here. I simply figured that WW2OL has at last lost its mystical hold on you.
Too bad; I missed you like a toothache.
Get your facts straight and quit that useless crap throwing on me, it ain't doing any good, now is it?
This year, the 2003, I've posted in exactly 8 threads on Aces High General Discussion and posted in each thread just once with the exception of this thread, which of most cannot be said to be 'continual criticism'.
At the moment you're the one messing around here - you started flaming other people with baseless accusations.
This shouldn't have gone this way... so you better take a very good look at the mirror before throwing such accusations, hypocrit.
On my part, I'll end this arguing here, since theres no argument other than you're being silly.
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Sigh...
I was a M2 instructor in the Army..... and I could punch a BRDM from 1200 yards in a moving ring mount on a Duce n'a half, I was poping "Goats" from the doormount on a CH47 in Iraq at well over 800 meters, the weapon really can hit out that far, and it's destructive power is acually understated, as we were getting 6 to 8 inches of penatration at those ranges. Now if ya want real power get some Sabot sub caliber Depleated Uranium rounds.....18 inches of penatration at much greater ranges.
Been there done that got the scars.....
Gunns
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wonder how I get any assists at all with these wonder weapons. I get about 40% sists using 50's.. some cannon guy comes allong and puts a couple rounds in the plane i finaly have shot up and he gets the kill... maybe they gave me sub standard .50 ammo?
lazs
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No lazs... it must be because you're only taking 1.2k shots. If you were firing at a more realisitic <300yard range you'd see just how uber those .50s were. That's your problem. It's not that people are clinging to age old rumors and misconceptions... it's just you.
MiniD
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fishu... it's time to stop pretending to be persecuted whenever you come over to the other side of the wall to get some digs in. Now run back to your protected sanctuary. If you don't want to be shot at... you really shouldn't leave it.
MiniD
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I agree with those that say it is mostly about lag. I remember being in a hurri IIC and spraying out at a guy who was D 1.2. I was just doing it for S & Gs and to get the guy to turn back into me. To my amazment a hit sprite flashed on the guy's wing and he went down like a sack of beans.
I commented to the pilot whom i shot down that I lucked out with the golden BB. He was kind of upset and lamented that i had hit him at D 700 and that shouldnt have happened. So my D 1.2K was D 700 on his end.
I now this is pretty much the inverse of what was pointed out above, but it does show that lag makes a big difference on what you and your weapons see and what your opponent sees.
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The hitting power of the 50 is pretty good.. Ive used it also and it punches thru steel and concrete like nothing...
The problem with AH is that the bullet dispersion should also increase with range..
Being 1 inch off target at 300m is like 1-2 feet or more at 1000m thats not including g force windage etc...
And this observation is from real world experience from the .50
AH just doesn't model bullet/cannon round dispersion like real life handles it..
Still it attempts to model it so hats off for their effort...
An increase of dispersion with range will fix this sniper cheese..
(im not saying you cant hit a target at that range with 6 .50's you can.. just not catastrophic dammage with a 1-2 bursts... like we have currently...)
2 cents
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by Fishu
It is known that .50 cal posesses such powers it will blow up the plane after few hits up to 1500 yards...
hmm.. maybe it's just lil overpowered in AH :>
Such a dishonest statement
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Whats funny is Spits will tear you up with their 2 50cal. out to 1.3k or so. (not even mentioning the hizooka.) But the P-51Bs 4x50cal are about useless at d 300 IMO long tracking shots only thing that work with them.
What game are you playing? Let's see the film!
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FOUL! I cry foul. I too want this uber 50 cal. load out. Now & then I fly a pony and have to say assist mobile could be nick name. Seems the same with all planes sporting 50 cals. Yes I open up at d_300 and blow them all to hell. BUT many times I light um up at D300 (even a second time) only to see the plane still up & flying. Smoking but alive. & then I get assist. Not a complaint, rather observation. Still fly them ( P51, FM2, F6f .. et al.) Still get kills, but to say they are uber ... I think not.
Pirate
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Originally posted by gunnss
Sigh...
I was a M2 instructor in the Army..... and I could punch a BRDM from 1200 yards in a moving ring mount on a Duce n'a half, I was poping "Goats" from the doormount on a CH47 in Iraq at well over 800 meters, the weapon really can hit out that far, and it's destructive power is acually understated, as we were getting 6 to 8 inches of penatration at those ranges. Now if ya want real power get some Sabot sub caliber Depleated Uranium rounds.....18 inches of penatration at much greater ranges.
Been there done that got the scars.....
Gunns
I second this assessment, although no actual combat experience on my part (limited to range practice from a tripod mount). Was hitting T72 size targets in the turret at 1100 metres plus. Good way to "reach out and touch someone".
Anyone know the effective range of a Barrett .50 sniper rifle? I thought that snipers with a Barrett can get out to 2000 metres plus....
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Talking of the .50 caliber....
There was in fact a few different .50 caliber versions in WWII.
It wasn't the same M2 .50 caliber MG throughout the war.
Theres also couple significant differences between ground and aircraft versions - rate of fire and the barrel lenght
Aircraft mounted guns ad the version with higher rate of fire and shorter barrel.
IIRC aircraft M2's had 3 or 4 different main versions through the war, going from early to late war versions.
IIRC again... the main differences were mainly in RoF and some adjustments of the barrel lenght.
Ammunition developtment went the same way.
.50 caliber ball type ammunition was widely used, especially early in the war.
Therefore I find comparisons to todays .50 calibers unlikely to give correct picture of the WWII .50 calibers.
Then theres other thing with the effectiveness... the penetration.
From a long range I'd say the rear armour is sufficient to stop those .50s which finds their way at the planes fuselage and therefore saves the possible fuselage tank from penetration and most importantly the pilot.
At long range I find the 20mm HE shell much more lethal than the .50 caliber.
From here we could easily jump to Hispanos and MG151/20 - to my knowledge hispanos used more AP(x)/Ball ammo than HE(x) based and MG151/20 used mostly HE ammo, which of the minengeschoss was quite powerful.
However from what I remember and from what I still read here, the Hispano is much more likely to cause catastrophic damage than MG151/20 by the relative terms.
However it should be more in favor of MG151/20 or at very least equal.
This said, to me it seems like AH is having too high damage based on the kinetic energy versus explosives.
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The stories of the d1.1 and d1.2 sniper kills from 50s never go away but the films never materialize. Age old routine of AH I suppose.
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<--has shot down spit from tail position of B17G at 1.5k and got ping on p47 at 1.7k:D
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Numerous engagements with large, 50 caliber guns during the war took place at 1,600 meters (about 1,750 yards). (http://www.vpc.org/studies/sniper.htm)
(refering to the Persian Gulf war, 1991)
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Originally posted by Hornet
The stories of the d1.1 and d1.2 sniper kills from 50s never go away but the films never materialize. Age old routine of AH I suppose.
All you have to do is find a B17, start rolling film, and approach slowly from behind. Unless you're flying a bullet resistant tank ie a FW-190A8, you should have taken several hits worth worrying about before d1.0
And what's unrealistic about that? If a sniper can hit a stationary man sized target at 1750 yards with 1 round, then an expert tail gunner should be able to hit a fighter sized target which is moving relatively slowly directly towards the shooter from a similar distance using 100 rounds, non?
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AtmkRstr,
Umm... quite alot in fact.
Sniper rifles are very well manufactured, well maintained, they usually use special ammunition which is fit for sniping with the specific gun for the best accuracy, they shoot on semifire at a relatively stable targets, they have good scopes to aim with and most of all the operators are usually highly trained and talented experts.
WWII .50 caliber machinegun is about nothing of these..
Manufacturing quality was probably at an average level compared to nowdays production... including also manufacturing of the ammunition, which were in varying types.
In WWII they didn't make a big issue out of metal wear!
The spare parts for planes alone must been enough to give a life long nightmares for FAA inspectors.
Where a sniper can hit man sized target from over 1.5km, I'd give quite smallish chances for a person with 100 rounds and a .50 cal machinegun to hit a fighter with any chance for some kind of actual damage.
Hitting alone is so-so and thats required to make damage... then theres only very small areas on planes where the hit will do damage.
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dispertion is modeled. At 2000 yards a .50 has more energy left than a 30 cal has at the muzzle and it is bigger around (makes a bigger hole) this is plenty of power to punch through most parts of a flimsy WWII ac.... it is enough to kill/wound the pilot or destroyu controls or destroy an engine or any of it's vital aux parts like radiators or oil coolers.
A one second burst from 6 .50's is allmost 100 rounds... you probly don't want 1 or two hundred .50's coming at you from 2000 yards away no matter what the dispertion.
for shooting down WWII fighters with fighters... the .50 was the best weapon.
lazs
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Sniper rifles are very well manufactured, well maintained, they usually use special ammunition which is fit for sniping with the specific gun for the best accuracy, they shoot on semifire at a relatively stable targets, they have good scopes to aim with and most of all the operators are usually highly trained and talented experts.
WWII .50 caliber machinegun is about nothing of these..
Manufacturing quality was probably at an average level compared to nowdays production... including also manufacturing of the ammunition, which were in varying types.
In WWII they didn't make a big issue out of metal wear!
The spare parts for planes alone must been enough to give a life long nightmares for FAA inspectors.
Where a sniper can hit man sized target from over 1.5km, I'd give quite smallish chances for a person with 100 rounds and a .50 cal machinegun to hit a fighter with any chance for some kind of actual damage.
Hitting alone is so-so and thats required to make damage... then theres only very small areas on planes where the hit will do damage.
Once again, to qualify with the M2 .50 cal you have to hit a BMP (frontal) sized target at 1,000 yards using less than 14 rounds. Open sights, flex. mounted. It can do this without much trouble by walking one or two bursts into the target. I have no doubt that if you present the aircraft equivalent of a stationary plywood target at 1,000 meters, then it wouldn't be too hard to "walk the rounds in" in that environment as well.
And if you ever saw an M2, or had even the slightest amount of RL experience with the weapon and its capabilities, you might know better instead of spouting off ill informed opinions. The M2 is not a stamped, cheap modern weapon. It is highly machined and hard to replace even today. The only real wear component is the barrel, wich is easy to replace and which were replaced regulary in USAAF units because of the abundance of spares and materials our airforce enjoyed.
As far as sniping capabilities, M2s were used in single shot mode as sniper rifles in VietNam.
Marine Corps sniper Carlos Hathcock recorded a 2,500 yard kill against the Viet Cong using a sandbagged AN/M2HB and 8 power Unertl telescopic sight.
I think that if you locked convergence at 400 yards max much of the whining would die down.
Charon
Charon
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Im not complaining about the range, nor the power at the end of that range, lord knows .50s are tough. Its the hit sprites. In Il-2 with nose mounted 50s in the p-39s nose You can shoot, and hit at 1k but you have no idea if you are hitting or not, do to no 30mm sized hit sprites at 1 mile. Ive seen before, bug maybe, little spark sized hit sprites , I think that they should be standard hit sprite size for most MGs in AH
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.50 cal. snipers, did someone say snipers. YUM YUM!!!
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Fishu, I forgot about the enormous difference between the weak aircraft version and the sturdy, high powered ground version.
I think you overstate the dramatic difference between the air and ground versions according the the muzzle velocities I found (multiple sources for each). A mere 23 m/s total, and still a full 140 m/s higher compared to the MG131.
Browning .50 M2 Aircraft - 870 m/s
Browning .50 M2 Ground - 893 m/s
For Comparison:
MG131 - 730 m/s
Charon
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
All you have to do is find a B17, start rolling film, and approach slowly from behind. Unless you're flying a bullet resistant tank ie a FW-190A8, you should have taken several hits worth worrying about before d1.0
The buff gunnery model has been tweaked by HTC for gameplay purposes. I was referring to fighter vs fighter encounters. HT laid down a challenge a while back for films of this phenomenon and no on stepped to the plate. I've written this brand of whine off since then.
You may be correct that the 50s should be hitting plenty accurate and hard up to d1.2...in that case they are undermodeled in AH
:D