Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on September 16, 2003, 08:47:57 PM
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It's a good read...
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-09-07-1.html
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One more reason to love Canada...
http://techcentralstation.com/081803C.html
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Damn MP3 trading communist!!! ;)
Anyone have a hi res copy of that poster?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
One more reason to love Canada...
http://techcentralstation.com/081803C.html
Canada isn't all its cracked up to be for you liberals... :)
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I would never have expected him to say anyting on this subject.
And I'm glad he did. The man is one of the greatest science fiction writers of all time. A very intelligent man.
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First, most of the people who are getting those free MP3s would not be buying the CDs anyway. They're doing this in order to get far more music than they can actually afford. That means that if they weren't sharing MP3s online, they would simply have less music -- or share CDs hand to hand. It does not mean that they would have bought CDs to get the tunes they're downloading from Napster-like sharing schemes.
That's why I laugh at their estimates of "lost sales."
I like that...an excellent point
Tronsky
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If you can't afford it, steal it.
Nice. I wonder if he feels the same way about movie DVDs or PC software. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
If you can't afford it, steal it.
Nice. I wonder if he feels the same way about movie DVDs or PC software. :rolleyes:
I bet you did not even bother to read what he wrote.
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Originally posted by Animal
I would never have expected him to say anyting on this subject.
And I'm glad he did. The man is one of the greatest science fiction writers of all time. A very intelligent man.
One of my favorite authors.
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First, most of the people who are getting those free MP3s would not be buying the CDs anyway. They're doing this in order to get far more music than they can actually afford. That means that if they weren't sharing MP3s online, they would simply have less music -- or share CDs hand to hand. It does not mean that they would have bought CDs to get the tunes they're downloading from Napster-like sharing schemes.
That's why I laugh at their estimates of "lost sales."
That "excellent point" means that since I can't afford a porsche, I can just steal one from the dealership? Hey, they got plenty, and this way, many people that otherwise would not have one will and just imagine all the "lost sales" that are being prevented!
What a stupid statement.
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Originally posted by Gadfly
First, most of the people who are getting those free MP3s would not be buying the CDs anyway. They're doing this in order to get far more music than they can actually afford. That means that if they weren't sharing MP3s online, they would simply have less music -- or share CDs hand to hand. It does not mean that they would have bought CDs to get the tunes they're downloading from Napster-like sharing schemes.
That's why I laugh at their estimates of "lost sales."
That "excellent point" means that since I can't afford a porsche, I can just steal one from the dealership? Hey, they got plenty, and this way, many people that otherwise would not have one will and just imagine all the "lost sales" that are being prevented!
What a stupid statement.
Actually it's more like you build your own porsche and stick their label on it. Not that I advocate pirating music, I don't.
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No, it is more like you utilize all of their shop drawings to build your own. If you want to create a cover of someones music, like they did in the old days with midi, I don't think there is an issue, but to make a digital copy is a little more than just a facsimile.
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Either way, you aren't costing them resources or a sale which was Card's point. He wasn't advocating piracy but rather ridiculing their estimated losses.
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Originally posted by Gadfly
First, most of the people who are getting those free MP3s would not be buying the CDs anyway. They're doing this in order to get far more music than they can actually afford. That means that if they weren't sharing MP3s online, they would simply have less music -- or share CDs hand to hand. It does not mean that they would have bought CDs to get the tunes they're downloading from Napster-like sharing schemes.
That's why I laugh at their estimates of "lost sales."
That "excellent point" means that since I can't afford a porsche, I can just steal one from the dealership? Hey, they got plenty, and this way, many people that otherwise would not have one will and just imagine all the "lost sales" that are being prevented!
What a stupid statement.
Actaully it means Porche couldn't complain about lost sales from people who wouldn't normally buy their cars.
Tronsky
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A better analogy than cars would be books. Sure there is a small minority that buy books for the book itself as well as the information contained inside, but the fact remains, if you are a publisher and the text of your book is available for free, you will lose sales that should be yours.
Lost sales due to the inability to pay for them is one of the stupidist concepts I have ever heard. It ranks right up there with the justification for copying software: They make **** software! I ain't paying for it, I will just steal it!
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Originally posted by AKIron
Either way, you aren't costing them resources or a sale which was Card's point. He wasn't advocating piracy but rather ridiculing their estimated losses.
Exactly... Software developers did the same thing... complaining about crackers that were copying their software. What they failed to realize was that the software was nothing more than a trophy. The crackers might play with it a bit, but it was ultimately shelved. These people had no intention of ever buying the software.
To call it lost revenue is not quite accurate.
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I don't buy that sandman. I have been online for a long time, and I have seen the thieves using stolen software too often. That argument just doesn't wash. You want to make it an accounting issue, sure I agree, but the software is cracked, distributed and used, just like digital copies of music are, all the time.
A lost sale is when the demand exceeds the supply, not when stolen copies are available for free.
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Books are a better comparison. I think you'll find that books on average are much more appropriately priced than music cds. Of course if books were made readily available to anyone that wanted to read them free of charge the writers would starve. Oh, wait, forgot about libraries.
While Napster or Kazaa may be likened to a very large library there is of course a significant difference. Libraries don't buy one book and then make it available for millions to read simultaneously.
I don't have a problem with the record industry protecting their property. Even it means they have to threaten and scare kids to do it (hmmm, actually kinda like that part ;)). But whining that every song copied is money out of their pocket is ludicrous. Again, that was Card's larger point.
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Let's take a few of his books, and the new one not published yet and put it in a PDF on the net and I bet he changes his mind PDQ.
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I bet you can find every one of his books, except maybe one unpublished, on the net now. I'm sure he knows it.
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Some of his books are available as Ebooks, but they run 24.95$ . I searched pretty throughly, without going to the HaXXosr sites, but there are none available for free. I have a hard time squaring his stance, re: music, with his stance re: his own books.
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Why use an analogy to describe a unique situation?
There has never been anything like the Peer sharing/mp3 thing before.
The net result of converting his book to PDF and distributing onto the net is not necessarily what you might think... and perhaps highlights what is wrong with the music industry, lets take an example scenario ($NZ used, NZ$1=US$0.60
- I see this guys ebook/pdf and download it
- I read part of it and decide I like his work
- PDFs on computers aren't fun to read for long periods of time, they're not comfortable as paper (well for me)
- I decide I want a printed version of this guys work
- I have a printer at home, but wait, its 300 pages
- I go to the bookstore, his book is there for $15
- at best my inkjet costs 5-10c per page + paper cost, it'd cost me between $15-$30 to print my own copy
- I decide to buy the covered, bound book at the bookstore because its the same or better priced
Then theres the MP3 version:
- I see some new music on the net and download it (entire CDs worth)
- I play it and decide I want the music to play on my CD player
- have a CD writer at home, and a blank CD is under $1
- I go to the music shop, the CD is $30
- I go home and burn the CD
It also leads to the question, how is it that a book can sell so much cheaper than a music CD, when IMHO a book takes more to physically produce?
Is it because the book publishing guys haven't bent us over and butt raped the consumer for the last 20 years?
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All spurious, because the fact remains: The RIAA sucks, Record companies suck, Software companies suck, but you are still getting someone elses property for free. It is stealing, no matter how you spin it.
If they wanted it to be free, they would post it with a big banner that said: FREE! download my(emphasis on MY) music here.
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If i buy a T-shirt that have a Nike print on it, does it hurt Nike that the T-shirt is an bootleg? (copy)
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Originally posted by Maniac
If i buy a T-shirt that have a Nike print on it, does it hurt Nike that the T-shirt is an bootleg? (copy)
Yes. Because the manufacturer of the shirt failed to secure legal rights to use the Nike logo and so benefited from it without consent of or payment to Nike.
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Software piracy has actually helped the marketing in many cases that I know of.
First of all, let's have a look at the professional 3D modelling, grahics... etc.
Those programs costs huge sums of money, I mean, alot.. you could for example buy a car with the price of most popular professional 3D modelling programs(!).
How many people do you know who would pay as large sums for such a program, without much knowledge about it?
I know some 3D modellers who have used pirated software and then taken it to their profession once learned to use it and got became able to make profit of it - and bought the program they've used 'illegally'.
I'd say most of these persons I know, wouldn't have done so if they wouldn't of had the program 'for cheaper'.
Most of all, they were all students at the time they began using the program...
I'd like to see how many students would otherwise have the will to buy a program worth a car, without any knowledge how to properly use it or even knowing it could someday become their profession.
Then I can talk for my own behalf with the pirated games..
I've downloaded games, not alot, only the ones which I think I'd like to play and then later on bought the games when seen it's worth it and didn't fly into the byteheaven the next day.
Although this can be partially accredited to warez games becoming available from couple weeks to couple months before available at the local stores, over here in Finland :D
..can't either talk much about trying the game with demos, since most of the games I've bought, simply never has had any demos to try!
Besides I hate demos.. when those are available for good games, it gets helluva annoying to wait for the full game... US OFP fans could probably second that :D (for those who dont know, it was like closer to 2 months later available in US than EU)
and it's too damn pity not everyone can be rich.. windows alone has cost few times more the cash I have left in hand every month after the basic bills.
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Originally posted by Gadfly
Some of his books are available as Ebooks, but they run 24.95$ . I searched pretty throughly, without going to the HaXXosr sites, but there are none available for free. I have a hard time squaring his stance, re: music, with his stance re: his own books.
All of his books are available in pirated e-form. Thats how I first learned about Card, reading a pirated Ender's Game copy. That you cannot find it reflects how much you know about this subject.
After I finished it, I ordered it, along with Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hedgemon, and Speaker for the dead.
Talk about "loss" from one downloaded pirated copy. And I'm sure it happens pretty often.
You steal a Porsche, and the dealer loses thousands of dollars. You download a CD, and the record industry loses $0, and potentially earns something if the downloader actually liked the music.
Originally posted by Fishu
Software piracy has actually helped the marketing in many cases that I know of.
Bill Gates has been quoted with saying that Microsoft would not be what it is today without the illegal distruibution DOS and Windows had in the beginning.
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Your missing the point.
Copywrite is totally fubar.
It was written to make sure that artists got their fair share of any material sold.
It never did nor was intented to prevent people from sharing.
It has not kept up with the times and as such needs to be rewritten.
RIAA on the other hand is trying to sue for something it never had. Sales, that was Cards point.
Company's have to adapt to the times & technology.
Reallity is that the internet is not going to go away. File sharing is not going to stop, people are not going to be scared away from it. RIAA & music company's need to find a new business model that works.
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Bill Gates has also been quoted as saying that 64k is more memory than anyone will need. So what.
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Leave it to Bill Gates to blame pirates for his company's monopolistic business practices. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ghosth
File sharing is not going to stop, people are not going to be scared away from it. RIAA & music company's need to find a new business model that works.
Stealing (or sharing as you call it) still continues eventhough many new business models have been implemented. Even if you could download any song you wanted for a penny, people are still going to steal it. Piracy is piracy, theft is theft.
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is he the guy who wrote Ender's Game?
I think the fact that his kid is autistic or retarded has messed him up real bad.
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Originally posted by udet
is he the guy who wrote Ender's Game?
I think the fact that his kid is autistic or retarded has messed him up real bad.
That one and many more. You didn't like Ender's Game?
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Mickey I'll make a deal with you.
You find me the average artists share dollar wise per song. & I don't mean top songs only. Price per album devided by songs per album.
Come up with a solid figure thats proveable.
I'll pay the artists for each & every song on my computer.
Not RIAA or the record labels share, but the artists.
Your wrong, give us a better reasonablly priced alternative and many of us WILL pay. But I'll never pay 12 - 20 $ for a cd ever again.
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Originally posted by AKIron
That one and many more. You didn't like Ender's Game?
I did, but the Shadow of the Hegemon series started to suck big time after the first novel. seems like he's obsessed with children or something. freaky.