Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 18, 2003, 08:00:17 AM
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Discuss.
Europeans wonder why Americans have it so good. The answer: We work hard for it while they take vacations.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
ENVY IS A TERRIBLE THING. Not so much because it makes those whom it afflicts unhappy, or as myth has it, turn green, but because it dulls their analytical skills. At meeting after meeting, in university seminars and in think tanks around the world, envy of America distorts discussions of what accounts for the wealth of nations.
Europeans know that America's standard of living exceeds their own by a very substantial margin. They know this not because they have pored over arcane statistics about output-per-man-hour, or investment in research and development, or other indicia on which economists rely. They know it because they have seen with their own eyes what a modest Holiday Inn at DisneyWorld offers by way of accommodation, service, and food; they know it because they see on television how Americans live, or hear it from relatives living in Florida--or even Detroit; they know it because their policymakers, many of them viscerally and violently anti-American, are always trying to devise programs that will enable their economies to match the performance of America's. When E.U. policymakers are shielded from public view in the safety of a seminar room, they concede that the American economy is the gold standard when it comes to producing the material good things of life.
This knowledge is pervasive. Young Italian men are too poor to set up their own living quarters long after American men have graduated from their starter accommodations. Germans are more frequently out of work, and for longer periods, than even the least lucky Americans. Brits snack on tiny sandwiches taken out of refrigerators that barely house a small bottle of milk and a few daily necessities, while America's housewives shop less frequently because their refrigerators are close to walk-in size. All because American working folks produce more of just about everything in any year than their European counterparts.
Ah, say Europeans, but the availability of material goods is one thing, "happiness" and "the quality of life" are something else, and very different. Start with vacations. Italians get 42 days of paid vacation every year, the French 37, the Germans 35, and the British 28. We Americans, meanwhile, take off only 14 of the 16 days to which we are entitled. Figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that Americans also work a 49-hour-week, which adds up to 350 more hours of labor a year than the typical European worker. Woe unto the frazzled Americans.
IF ANYTHING, these figures understate the difference between Americans and Europeans. Take the British. Anyone who has ever tried to do business in Britain in August knows that the month should be counted as vacation time. Even those trying to work find so many of their colleagues on holiday that they might as well stay home or leave town themselves. Add to that the period between, say, December 15 and January 10, when many Brits down tools, pens, and copious quantities of beer and champagne, and several bank holidays. Throw in the time off now cascading on the work force from the fevered brains of New Labour policy wonks--maternity and paternity leave, sick days, and, soon Europe Day (May 9, as mandated in Part IV, Article IV-1 of the new constitution), and the official figure of 28 days becomes, at best, a lower limit.
THE 14-DAY "vacation" estimate for Americans, on the other hand, is an overstatement. The ubiquitous Blackberry enables us to read and send emails from the seas and oceans, from beaches, fields, hills, and rooftops; call forwarding routes those who dial an office directly to the cell phone of the lawyer, consultant or engineer who is technically on vacation; and vacation days at posh spas are often scheduled around a company or industry conference.
A good way to sum up Americans' views of vacations is to study the habits of George W. Bush. He retreated to his ranch, where the temperature regularly exceeds 100 degrees, to clear brush. For relief from that vacation activity, he met with his foreign policy team, then with his economic advisers, then traveled to national parks to push his plan to reduce the incidence of forest fires, then on to California for a fund-raising tour. By contrast, Europe's leaders disappeared from view, some to the Caribbean, others to Tuscany, still others to California and Montana. No vacatio interruptus for them.
SO EUROPEANS INSIST that Americans may be more "productive," as economists measure productivity, but only because they work longer hours. In any given hour, they contend, European workers can produce as much or more. The fact that Europe's economies typically produce fewer goods and services for the delectation of their citizens then becomes a matter of choice--the voluntary selection of leisure over work.
Not a bad argument, if correct. After all, perhaps the one thing the French have got right is their famous chacun à son gout. The problem is that although an American worker can often trade off higher income for more leisure time, it is not so easy for Europeans to do the opposite. An Italian worker who would like more income and less vacation time can show up for work in August, but his factory or office will be closed. A British worker who would like to make a few extra pounds by working in the week after Christmas will have a hard time being productive in an empty office or plant. About the only thing a European worker can do to improve the ratio of income-to-leisure is emigrate to America. Which is why millions of Italians, Irish, Germans, and other Europeans have voted with their feet in favor of America's balance between work and leisure, with no discernible flow in the opposite direction.
All of this, of course, makes one wonder just how Europe's policymakers know, as they claim they do, that the less productive lifestyle of their citizens is, indeed, a matter of choice? The answer is simple: they know that Europeans are "happier," in good part because incomes, although lower than in America, are more equally distributed. So the Economist cites a study of Harvard students in which those polled say they would prefer to earn $50,000 a year while others earned half that, than to earn $100,000 annually while others earned twice as much.
Europeans who cite this study in an effort to bring Americans down a peg or two provide a perfect example of the addled thinking resulting from envy. Harvard students are not famously stretched to pay the rent (parents foot dorm bills) or meet family obligations or medical bills; even the neediest receive subsidies from the richest and most generous university in the world. So, to resort to the vernacular, their talk is cheap: until they earn their livings by the sweat of their own brows, they would do well not to tell pollsters that they prefer earning half as much so long as others earn less.
When Europe's policymakers rise above envy and politically correct talk of "happiness," "equality," and "leisure-trumps-income," they express real worry. Not only is the American economy more productive than Europe's, the gap is widening--output per man-hour in the United States continues to rise, as the infrastructure left behind by busted dot.coms becomes more and more efficiently deployed. Worse still for those who want to play catch-up, America's outlays on research and development, a harbinger of future improvements in productivity, continue to outstrip those in the European Union.
The good news for the European Union is that serious European policymakers understand the problem. The bad news for Europe is that they prefer to hide behind talk of the advantages of not working, rather than to implement policies that make work more attractive. Meanwhile, they might give a thought to the Chinese, who seem to view leisure with even greater suspicion than we Americans do.
Irwin M. Stelzer is director of economic policy studies at the Hudson Institute, a columnist for the Sunday Times (London), a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard, and a contributing writer to The Daily Standard.
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ENVY IS A TERRIBLE THING
Yup. He got that right.
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Brits snack on tiny sandwiches taken out of refrigerators that barely house a small bottle of milk and a few daily necessities, while America's housewives shop less frequently because their refrigerators are close to walk-in size.
I always thought americans were fat because of their lack of self-control and insatiable desire to consume. It seems it is because of their tremendous work ethic allows them enormous walk-in fridges. Maybe if they spent a little more time walking in these enormous fridges rather than just eating stuff out of them they would have less of a problem with obesity. :lol
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Originally posted by niknak
I always thought americans were fat because of their lack of self-control and insatiable desire to consume. It seems it is because of their tremendous work ethic allows them enormous walk-in fridges. Maybe if they spent a little more time walking in these enormous fridges rather than just eating stuff out of them they would have less of a problem with obesity. :lol
We (but *we* could include UK, since they're considered a "high income" country) seem to have a better mortality rate though, kinda weird since 60% are indeed overweight.
http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/beyond/beyondco/beg_08.pdf
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Europeans wonder why Americans have it so good. The answer: We work hard for it while they take vacations.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
Ahh..... that'll be why all your jobs are being outsourced to India then.......
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I always thought americans were fat because of their lack of self-control and insatiable desire to consume. It seems it is because of their tremendous work ethic allows them enormous walk-in fridges. Maybe if they spent a little more time walking in these enormous fridges rather than just eating stuff out of them they would have less of a problem with obesity.
Actually 'fatness' it quite genetic. Even the desire to eat is. Please don't let your American envy devour you.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Europeans wonder why Americans have it so good. The answer: We work hard for it while they take vacations.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
Ahh..... that'll be why all your jobs are being outsourced to India then.......
Only a fraction of American jobs are in the IT/IS sector.(shrugs)
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Originally posted by Seeker
Europeans wonder why Americans have it so good. The answer: We work hard for it while they take vacations.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
Ahh..... that'll be why all your jobs are being outsourced to India then.......
Jobs are being outsourced to India because of the huge cost differences. European and Japanese jobs are leaving for Asia, too. Your vacations may soon get even longer.
ra
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Your vacations may soon get even longer.
ENVY IS A TERRIBLE THING
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I get 4 weeks vacation, 2 weeks of sick leave, about 1 week of "personal time" (if I need to) and about 2 weeks of paid holidays off. (shrugs)
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That make 9 week ... 2 more than I :lol
And where did he get his 35 hour per week ?
since last wednesday I'm at +80 hours ... :(
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Originally posted by straffo
And where did he get his 35 hour per week ?
Statistically, thats the avg. Straffo.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Statistically, thats the avg. Straffo.
yep ... I forgot the guy "working" in the administration ...
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Originally posted by straffo
yep ... I forgot the guy "working" in the administration ...
hehe!
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Actually 'fatness' it quite genetic. Even the desire to eat is. Please don't let your American envy devour you.
I expect you are all just "big boned";)
To be honest, a light hearted jab at your portlyness is hardly equivolent to being consumed by envy. Then again i am not particularly au fait with consumtion as , alas, i have only a regular sized fridge in which to store my envy.
I expect you will get more violent reaction from many Euros as this article basically says "we have much better stuff than you because we are honest hard workers while you lot (euros) are lazy degenerates with to much holiday and a poor standard of living while offering zero hard facts (apart from you have fridges in which you can stroll around:))"
However everyone's entitled to their opinions.
P.S. Does starting to sweat while getting out of a chair = high quality of life? :)
Sorry i really couldn't resist that last one, no offence intended to any fatties out there (euro or US)
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You do realize ripsnort that working yourself to death isnt better then living life. Don't let your puritan outlook on life interfer with what is really important. You work enough to live a happy life, and not all people need to have 3 cars and a house payment they can barely afford.
By the way, go on vacation to western europe one day and then tell me about the terrible life's they have to live.(england dosnt count)
Oh yea and watch as boeing moves alot of the labor to china in the next 20 years.
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Great thread.
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Hehe - good thread. Rip - do you ever post any original thought, or do you only ever cut and paste? Just asking... :lol
I have lived & worked in the US and could have stayed indefinitely, but chose to come back here. A key factor in that decision (one of several) was the piss-poor US holiday entitlement. I got 2 weeks allowance - plus the usual public holidays. After I returned here I never had a permanent job (was freelance), so I could take holidays between work assignments, as well as taking a few weeks during an assignment. It all depends what you live for. I don't live for material possessions, but prefer to have more leisure time. I was amazed, working in the US, when one of my colleagues announced he was "going on vacation". I had visions of him jetting off to an exotic location for 2 weeks. The reality was very different - 4 days in Green Bay,Wisconsin. - LOL!
Since being back here, I have again worked for an American company, and then spent a couple of months working out of their Denver office. I can remember some of the American managers being gobsmacked when, in response to their announcement of "we need you to work the weekend" were told "sorry, I'm not available this weekend". They were even more red-faced when one English guy said, after being told his job was on the line on this issue, said: "So what. There was life before XYZ, and there'll be life after XYZ", XYZ being the name of the company.
The thing is about American companies is that they don't just want 40 hours a week out of you (which is 5 more than I preferred to work) but they also want a chunk of your life. They were slightly taken aback by the comings and goings of the British workers. There would be the Americans, beavering away at 8am... I preferred to come in at around 9:30 so I could miss the traffic, and perhaps leave later - say around 6pm. But "flexitime" is an unknown concept in America. Then there was all that BS about doing "Face Time" - hanging around the office as the managers left, to be seen working - showing enthusiasm, but not necessarily achieving anything. :rolleyes: Bollocks to that. I'd get my work done, and come and go as I pleased. Always have.
One thing I do agree with in that article, and that's the tedium of Christmas in the UK. In the US, Xmas is a single day. They don't have Boxing Day. New Year's Day is also a holiday, as it has been in England since 1974 - always was in Scotland. But in England, the Xmas season drags on for 2 weeks. I hate that. So I used to bugger off to Tenerife for 2 weeks over Xmas & New Year, and escape all the commercialism and other crap at home.
Irwin Stelzer goes on to make some BS and outdated observations. Brits snack on tiny sandwiches taken out of refrigerators that barely house a small bottle of milk and a few daily necessities, while America's housewives shop less frequently because their refrigerators are close to walk-in size.
Dear me, he is behind the times. Back in the 60s and perhaps the 70s, he would have had a point. But it just so happens I am in the process of buying a new fridge freezer. The modern ones all stand about 6' tall or more. Here's a weblink (http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPC-Siemens_KG33S310) showing the one I like - frost free, with a built in wine rack for the Chablis and Mouton Cadet. But this is far from top of range, and there are many others. My Mum has got a Hotpoint model - she's always had good taste. :)
Still, the article makes a good point about American service in hotels. I don't think I've ever been disappointed by an American hotel, and I'm really looking forward to staying at the Embassy Suites for the con next month.
The moral of this story is portrayed in an Aesop's fable. The one about the hungry dog who happens upon a well fed dog the other side of a fence. The well fed dog is bragging about his life and about the steaks he gets fed and had the hungry dog salivating. But the hungry dog then notices the mark on the other dog's neck - made as a result of being chained up every night. And the hungry dog thinks "F that, I'm off"...
... and the moral of the story: "Lean freedom is better than fat slavery".
Note the slightly Freudian use of the word "fat". :D:D:D
Oh, and my post is still shorter than that article. :lol
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Now it's even better!
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But "flexitime" is an unknown concept in America.
I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever been to the US.
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I'd say it's more about the culture...
Americans are heavy consumers, while europeans are more conserving.
Americans also have dirt cheap taxes, thats the thing I envy... although, I've had free schooling, still can have and got a cheap health care.
Hard to say which is better... pay taxes and have a cheap health care or have "no" taxes and have things cheap, but pay heartily for education and health care. (unless the job offers health care insurance or whatever..)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
You do realize ripsnort that working yourself to death isnt better then living life. Don't let your puritan outlook on life interfer with what is really important. You work enough to live a happy life, and not all people need to have 3 cars and a house payment they can barely afford.
Couldn't agree more. Thats why I plan to work until 55, then retire. ;) (And I'm sure the house payment comment was directed at "an avg. American" ? Because mine is only 24% of of our income)
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But "flexitime" is an unknown concept in America.
My only requirement for hours is to put in 40 a week, doesn't matter what time or how. I create my own schedule, whether it be at home or work. Virtual office is a great thing. All salary and most technical workers are offered this too.
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lets see.. blackberrys are making armericans more productive eh ?
Ok ladies, show of hands, how many of you has one ?
Yeah, i thought so.
And that's besides the whole "we're 7 centuries in terms of telecom wireless features behind europe" point.
Bush working vacation ? heheheh pleeeeeze. He meets with his advisors ? What for ? They make all the decisions anyway. Just send him the script !!! :)
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Hehe, being a civil servant I get 30 days leave, 8 public/bank holidays, 2 1/2 privilege days (being crown servant) and also any days I accumulate through working flexi-time (it is time off in lieu of hours worked mind). 6 months full sick pay, further 6 months half sick pay. I get lots of days off, but the pay really sucks, really really sucks!
Not all my previous jobs were as cushy though, a precision engineering firm I work for allowed NO holiday and NO sick days - you had to work a year in advance. This is now illegal! :eek:
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Well America is more productive than Europe and is much better at providing opportuinties to enterprenurial, hard working and clever individuals. Nobody can argue with that and certainly the immigration statistics support that. However there is no doubt that Europe can be a fine place to spend your vacation dollars.. ;)
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Managed to find it on the web. Kind of sums up the situation nicely. Hmmm... thought America was all about "freedom" :confused: Here it is, C&P -
The House Dog And The Wolf: Once upon a time, as the full moon was shining down upon the land, a thin and starving wolf came upon a well-fed, healthy house dog, busy guarding his owner’s house. "How is it that you look so well?" the struggling wolf asked the dog, amazed by his robust appearance during these times of hardship. "The wilderness is especially harsh this year, I can hardly find a thing to eat."
"My dear cousin wolf," the house dog said, "the problem lies with the way you live. It’s not easy to make ends meet, without a steady job."
"And you have that?" the wolf asked, incredulously.
"You bet," said the house dog. "I guard my master’s house each night, frightening away the thieves; and for that, he feeds me well. As you can see. Just as much as that, I can always be sure of a roof above my head, whenever it rains or snows, while you - you must suffer so terribly in the cold!"
"It’s not easy," the wolf admitted.
"Well - why not join me?" the house dog asked, generously inviting the wolf to join the household. "I could use a helper, and I’m sure my master would take good care of you."
Excited and grateful at this new opportunity, the wolf began to follow the dog into the house, when, all of a sudden, he noted a strange mark upon the house dog’s neck, and unable to repress his curiosity, finally asked him: "Dear friend - forgive me for asking - but how did you come by that mark upon your neck?"
"That? Oh, that’s nothing," the house dog assured him. "Just the mark left behind by the collar I wear during the day."
"Collar?" gasped the wolf.
"Certainly," said the dog. "You see, my master keeps me chained up by day, for I am such a good guard dog that he is a little wary of me, himself. But it doesn’t matter, I’m free to roam about at night as I patrol his property."
But at this, the wolf suddenly seemed to lose interest in his new job.
"Hey - wait a minute - where are you going?!" asked the house dog, as the thin and hungry wolf turned away from him, and slowly trotted off, back towards the unforgiving forest from which he’d come. "The house is this way!"
But the wolf only called back, as he disappeared among the trees: "Good-bye, my poor, poor friend. Enjoy the fine food your master gives you, and the warmth of your home. As for me, I’d rather endure hunger than wear your chains!"
Application: Lean Freedom Is Better Than Fat Slavery.
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So paying enormous European taxes to subsidize unproductive lazy assoles is freedom? How much tax do you pay on gasoline? How about the scandanavians, how much did that new 1.8 liter car cost you $60,000, $65,000?
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I haven't had more than a 4 day vacation in over 3 years. ( I don't count the month in rehab, that was more stressful than work!) I play hard on the weekends though :) I can't imagine taking a month off of work. Seem like you'd get replaced like that, unless everybody was off for that month. I get 2 weeks sick and 2 weeks vacation, in 2 more years it goes up to 3 weeks each. It's not an entitlement though, it's what the job offered and part of the reason I took it. Why should anybody be expected to pay anybody for not working? :confused:
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Application: Lean Freedom Is Better Than Fat Slavery.
Lean Slavery is the worst of all. And socialism is the ultimate dog collar.
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You guys beat me to it. That fable applies perfectly to US government vs. European socialist governments.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
My only requirement for hours is to put in 40 a week, doesn't matter what time or how. I create my own schedule, whether it be at home or work. Virtual office is a great thing. All salary and most technical workers are offered this too.
same here rip. I go in at 6:30 am so I can be home early and beat the traffic. I have not worked a set 9 to 5 since the late 80's.
between vacation, holidays and paid time off I have over 3 weeks time off. I never take them all and I can roll over a portion of our unused. A funny thing about vacation today at a company meeting we were told to try and take our vacation time more often because we earned it.
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Originally posted by Udie
I haven't had more than a 4 day vacation in over 3 years. ( I don't count the month in rehab, that was more stressful than work!) I play hard on the weekends though :) I can't imagine taking a month off of work. Seem like you'd get replaced like that, unless everybody was off for that month. I get 2 weeks sick and 2 weeks vacation, in 2 more years it goes up to 3 weeks each. It's not an entitlement though, it's what the job offered and part of the reason I took it. Why should anybody be expected to pay anybody for not working? :confused:
With love and all Udie, one day you will lose your job, one way or the other. Downsizing or a boss that doesn't like you. Then you'll realize that life != work. While I don't wish you bad, i hope you'll understand that soon. Maybe the other issues would clear up as well.
Work defines who you are in States. It's sad but true. Everything is tied into it. Most people elsewhere treat work as something that suplements and allows you to enjoy life. You here are lead to believe that if you enjoy work - you enjoy life.
Stroll down to Florida sometimes, you'll see 80 year old frail ladies in Stop and Shop bagging groceries. They have more jewlery hanging off them then you can afford - but they take a 5$ /h job, because without it - they don't know who they are. It's a sad sad way to waste your life.
I'm not advocating treating your workplace with disresepect and being a lazy s..t - don't assume the other extreeme. But work and balance can be balanced to provide you with meaningful career and proper personal life.
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Originally posted by beet1e
But the wolf only called back, as he disappeared among the trees: "Good-bye, my poor, poor friend. Enjoy the fine food your master gives you, and the warmth of your home. As for me, I’d rather endure hunger than wear your chains!"
Application: Lean Freedom Is Better Than Fat Slavery.
you have never seen my dog, talk about a dogs life !
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
My only requirement for hours is to put in 40 a week
There you go. 40 hours. For me, that would equate to almost a 6-day week. :eek:
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Originally posted by beet1e
There you go. 40 hours. For me, that would equate to almost a 6-day week. :eek:
And, it also presses home the validity of the article. Thks for agreeing with it. :) We're more productive, nanner nanner naaaaaanerrrrrr :p
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
We (but *we* could include UK, since they're considered a "high income" country) seem to have a better mortality rate though, kinda weird since 60% are indeed overweight.
http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/beyond/beyondco/beg_08.pdf
If my memory of history serves, the founders of our country traveled here looking for religious freedom. This freedom was not from religion, but to practice the religion.....oh...you said "mortality", not "morality".
Nevermind;)
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Originally posted by Fishu
Hard to say which is better... pay taxes and have a cheap health care or have "no" taxes and have things cheap, but pay heartily for education and health care. (unless the job offers health care insurance or whatever..)
American governments spend over 40% of our income, so we do pay taxes.
Public education is paid for out of taxes, so it is "free" by the European definition. Colleges can be incredibly expensive, but if a student scores high enough he can earn scholarships and grants to pay for all or most of his expenses. If I understand the European system, only the brightest get "free" college, so in an indirect way it is similar. But in America almost every county has a cheap community college where less serious students can take classes in basic things like accounting and computer programming. And each state has a university which is usually pretty cheap for state residents, and some of those state universities aren't bad.
Most Americans are happy with their health care because they have very generous insurance plans, IMHO too generous. The flaw is that poor or unemployed people usually have no coverage, and have to pay their own medical bills. They can still get good medical care, but when they get the bill they may wish they hadn't.
ra
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Europeans who cite this study in an effort to bring Americans down a peg or two provide a perfect example of the addled thinking resulting from envy. Harvard students are not famously stretched to pay the rent (parents foot dorm bills) or meet family obligations or medical bills; even the neediest receive subsidies from the richest and most generous university in the world. So, to resort to the vernacular, their talk is cheap: until they earn their livings by the sweat of their own brows, they would do well not to tell pollsters that they prefer earning half as much so long as others earn less.
not suprisingly, those getting a harvard education understand economics a bit better than the author. the face value of a given amount of money is just an arbitrary number. the real value is what you can get for that dollar. if everybody had had twice as much money, then money would be worth half as much.
so the author seems to be to dense to understand that the guy making $50k while others make $25k is making 4 times the money of the guy who makes $100k, while everyone else is making $200k.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And, it also presses home the validity of the article. Thks for agreeing with it. :) We're more productive, nanner nanner naaaaaanerrrrrr :p
Just how old are you?
More productive? Who cares
More guns? Who cares
Fat slobs? Who cares
Stupid and ill informed? Who cares
Badly educated? Who cares
Work harder? Who cares
Greedy and repulsive? Who cares
Just stay on your side of the pond please.
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Somebody needs a vacation.
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Ra,
Living in Finland and comparing to US taxes, it seems as if they don't have taxes worth to mention in US ;)
Over here college is free for all for most parts.. if I did the school comparison right.
lower school -> high school -> college
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Just how old are you?
Ripsnort is 13.3333 years old.
His favourite keyboard keys are ctrl, C and V.
His chief ambition in life is to form his own opinion... an ambition he has yet to fulfill.
hehe ;)
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Originally posted by Fishu
Ra,
Living in Finland and comparing to US taxes, it seems as if they don't have taxes worth to mention in US ;)
Over here college is free for all for most parts.. if I did the school comparison right.
lower school -> high school -> college
Correct, specifically, elementary school, middle or jr. high school, high school and then college.
College is free for students in some states in their public school system.
Federal grants take care of students who's parents meet certain low income guidelines and for students who are independent and also meet certain low income guidelines.
That's why our taxes are so dang high!
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Originally posted by fd ski
With love and all Udie, one day you will lose your job, one way or the other. Downsizing or a boss that doesn't like you. Then you'll realize that life != work. While I don't wish you bad, i hope you'll understand that soon. Maybe the other issues would clear up as well.
Hmm I don't quite get your meaning here. I've lost jobs before for both the reasons you listed, and more :D I remember the recession of the 80's too. When I turned 16 I went to go get a job bagging groceries at Randall's. They turned me away because they had 40 year old dudes with college degrees bagging ans stocking. I couldn't find a job (other than fast food) until I was 18 or 19 years old, and I got that from a friend who had started his own silk screening business.
I don't have too many other isues right now :) Thankfully I got most of my mental BS cleared up when I went to rehab last December and got off all those damn phsycotropic meds the shrink had me on.
Right now with my present financial state (ok there's a big isue :D) my job and my ability to work is all I have going for me. I get paid well for a draftsman, more than any other draftsman I have ever met. The down side to that is I don't expect much more money out of this career. So last week I bit the bullet. I called an old boss and got some contract work from him. So now I'll work my 40 hours at work plus (hopefully) another 10 or so at home. The 10 or so at home will net me almost the same money my real job does :) minus Uncle Sam's extortion. It's freaking absolutely awesome that I have the ability/right/will to do this. I love it. Because with this attitude I can make myself rich with my own 2 hands. This I know because I watched my father do it over the past 15 years. From zero (actually negative about $40k) to worth a million on paper and 1/2 that in liquid assets. All by his own 2 hands. Because he worked his butt off. He took his first vacation in 30 years 2 weeks ago. We went fishing for a weekend.
Work defines who you are in States. It's sad but true. Everything is tied into it. Most people elsewhere treat work as something that suplements and allows you to enjoy life. You here are lead to believe that if you enjoy work - you enjoy life.
Hmm I agree and disagree with you here. Work definitely defines who you are here. Lack of work does too (bums) Work to me is something that has to be done. The first 10 years of my career I hated this. Now I've changed some. I look at work as something I can do to make myself a better person. To further myself materially and as something that I sometimes enjoy now. I do know that the times that I enjoy my work I seem to be happier in life. The times that I hate my job I'm usually depressed in life. Now I don't know if the depression caused the hatred of the job or the otherway around. But that's been my experience.
Stroll down to Florida sometimes, you'll see 80 year old frail ladies in Stop and Shop bagging groceries. They have more jewlery hanging off them then you can afford - but they take a 5$ /h job, because without it - they don't know who they are. It's a sad sad way to waste your life.
Double edge sword there. Was she working because she wanted to or because she has to? If she wanted to do it, how can you say she's wasting her life if it's something she likes/wants to do? If she HAS to work, then yes I agree that's a waste. I look at my step-grandfather. He's 85 years old. he retired 20 years ago. He works out in his field everyday. I think it's what's kept him alive. He has something to do. He enjoys it. He hates the winter because he has to sit idle.
I'm not advocating treating your workplace with disresepect and being a lazy s..t - don't assume the other extreeme. But work and balance can be balanced to provide you with meaningful career and proper personal life.
Well my life/work ballance goal is to retire by the time I'm 50-55 60 at the latest. Then I will murder and eat many many many thousands of fish :D
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I guess europeans work to live and americans live to work.
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I guess europeans work to live and americans live to work.
unfortunatetly thats true more often than not. well over half the guys I work with devoted so much time and energy on their career that they lose their familys.
it's depressing and sad to watch a guy bust his butt all day at work, thinking he's doing it for his family, but in the end he's just suporting his wife and kids after they move on and find another guy. not that there is anything wrong with hard work or taking pride in doing a good job, but when guys think that working hard and making more money is the most important thing they can do for their family it's not going to work out well (unless of course you have no kids and the wife is just a money grubbing tramp who only married you to get at your wallet)
even worse then them are the poor bastards who sacrificed everything to get ahead at work, and when they get to their older years they are alone and have nothing. they are not as common as the others but much worse. they turn in to these sad little men who will stab anyone in the back and kiss any prettythang to get ahead at work, they have to be important at work, because they are nobody when they leave.
the real hell of it is those guys often make it quite far in companys (do to their complete lack of limits, and nothing better to do but work), they then expect everybody else to care as much as they do. work should never be the most important thing on your list of priority (doesn't even make the top 10). it's just a tool to get the things you need to take care of the things that really matter.
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I liked my holidays as a european worker, and If the americans like their working hours I really dont see a problem here ?
I usually had 3 weeks at summer and fixed the other 2 weeks with easter and christmas so i got longer periods off then.
I also had a choice to work in holidays if i wanted, but I only did that when i was younger, and or felt that i needed the money.
That did not happen many times cause i managed on my basic job.
Now im styding and have even longer holidays lol :D (too much)
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I guess europeans work to live and americans live to work.
Put me down for the Work to live catagory...
I´m always amazed at lottery winners etc who goes back to work after the big win... :eek:
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I´m always amazed at lottery winners etc who goes back to work after the big win...
ya, I can never understand that. and it's not like they go back to a good job ("good job" = you'd do even if you didn't get paid), it's always some mind numbing production job or the like.
I may not know exactly what I'd do with my time wher I to have enough cash not to have to worry about it, but I do have a fairly comprehensive list of things I'm never doing again.
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but I do have a fairly comprehensive list of things I'm never doing again.
:)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How much tax do you pay on gasoline? How about the scandanavians, how much did that new 1.8 liter car cost you $60,000, $65,000?
You're asking about Scandinavia, but I'll add a few comments here.
I personally think the current Labour government's attitude to motorists concerning taxation on road fuel is outrageous. Same thing applies to all previous Labour governments. Their policy of escalating the cost of road fuel at 6% above the level of inflation had to be abandoned three years ago, having led to a massive public revolt against road fuel costs, organised by some Welsh farmers. The real rub is the cost of diesel - cheaper than gasoline in most countries to reflect lower production costs - but more expensive in Britain. That's because a Labour chancellor saw the growing popularity of diesel powered cars, and the lower cost coupled with the fact that many cars do 1½ times the mileage on the same quantity of diesel meant that people were not paying as much tax. Labour decided they could pay more, so increased the cost of diesel to what it is now - about 80p per litre. But if you go down to the local boat yard, you can buy diesel for about 35p per litre. But there are big fines for using non-road fuel in road vehicles.
As for cars, my 2.8 cost me about £20,000. That was just after VW reduced its UK price by about £3000 because people were going to Europe to buy cars. Holland has a high purchase tax on cars, so the car producers have to price cars at levels which the Dutch motorist is able and willing to pay. But the British can go there to buy a car, and not have to pay the tax - so there are deals to be had. I chose not to buy mine in Europe (long story) but a close friend of mine bought his Ford Focus 1.6 in Holland, and paid about £10,000.
But Grun has a point. A long time ago, I hired a Chevrolet Caprice Classic in Florida. I was an enormous car - 16' in length. It was so comfortable it felt like driving a bed! The automatic transmission selector was column mounted and the floor was flat, so the car could seat six easily, and could accommodate 4 suitcases in the trunk. It had air conditioning, a radio/cassette system (this was 1990), safety features like airbags, electric windows, power brakes and power steering. The gas tank capacity was 23 gallons! :eek: Price then for this car was $16,000. At that time in Britain, the same money would have bought a Vauxhall Cavalier L model - only 4 seats, manual gears, smaller boot, basic radio if any, wind-up windows, no power steering, no servo assisted brakes, no air conditioning. A much smaller car.
But there have been reforms. Back then the car industry operated a cartel. Now you can buy a car at a supermarket almost. A Renault Laguna 1.8 here was about £12,000 at a time when the same car could be bought in Denmark for £6000 - because of not having to pay the Danish purchase tax. The car makers and dealers don't like the fact that they can no longer rip us off the way they did in the past. :lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So paying enormous European taxes to subsidize unproductive lazy assoles is freedom? How much tax do you pay on gasoline? How about the scandanavians, how much did that new 1.8 liter car cost you $60,000, $65,000?
ohh yes lol :D in Norway a average 1.8l car (japanese) cost about 250000kr (about 33000$) The car taxes her is far beyond reality vs lets say sweden that have about 30% less car taxes than us.
Then again a low paid work as a floor cleaner at a hospital should be around 28000$ a year.
I think i remember that the average yearly pay was about 38000$ a year+/-.
income tax is about 33 % but usually lower cause we put of the intrest on our house loand so a average income tax should be aroun 25-28% depending on how big loans we have.
We have very high taxes on alcohol and tobacco, but hell that is not food for living is it :D
example 20 pack with sigaretts = 8.50 $
1 bottle with cognac 3 stars = 42.5$
We also have the socalled enviorment tax on gas that gives us 1.3$ pr. litre of gasoline.
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A reason I don't have a car....
In Finland the drivers license alone costs from quickly estimated +800€
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JEEZ I can go get a 1.8 liter care for under 10 grand here. And then only pay about $30-$40 a month in gas, and I drive 100+ miles everyday.
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I don't envy americans as things are good (in some ways even better) here.
What good is your money if you live in a zoo full of crackheads?
Better yet, if you want money, start a private enterprise and earn it like me. No need to go to US for that you know.
Oh, as a bonus, as a european you won't have to worry about every raghead in the planet wanting to kill you. :eek:
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Drivers licence, first and second "stages" = 1200$
Buy a car, new budget sedan with 1.6l engine is about 20 000$. All lux stripped away of course, even the windows might be crank models if its technically possible. MOST of the new cars in Finland are like this, no leather seats, no air conditioning, no aluminium wheels etc.
Insurance varies a lot, average might be 400$ annual.
Annual car tax is 100$.
Gasoline tax is about 75%, one litre = 1.2$.
You can imagine how expensive it is to have 2 cars and 3 kids to drive around. This just for the luxury of having combustion engine on wheels in your garage.
The joys of socialism, ****ty cars, poor food and outrageous booze prizes (4$ per litre).
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The joys of socialism, ****ty cars, poor food and outrageous booze prizes (4$ per litre).
What's wrong with the food in Finland?
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rofl, I dont use my car more than 3 hours a week, getting from a to b. that is no big deal. My average gas cost never go over 50$ a month and that is no big deal.
I use my legs getting to the campus and back, that cost me 20 min a day each way and a little breath.
alcohol and tobacco ? Well if youre stupid enoght to get addicted of it you gonna have to stay the pain paying for it :D
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Originally posted by trolla
rofl, I dont use my car more than 3 hours a week, getting from a to b. that is no big deal. My average gas cost never go over 50$ a month and that is no big deal.
I use my legs getting to the campus and back, that cost me 20 min a day each way and a little breath.
alcohol and tobacco ? Well if youre stupid enoght to get addicted of it you gonna have to stay the pain paying for it :D
im 45 miles one way to work...
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The law of diminishing returns.
The subjective value of product (reward) of every additional hour of work gets lower.
At the same time subjective value of every additionall sacrificed hour of leisure gets higher.
Once they become equal in person's subjective judjement, he stops working in favor of leisure.
The fact that most americans work more and enjoy less leisure compared to europeans just means that work is more rewarding.
The european's work is less rewarding for europeans because they get taxed on the outcome of their labor and then taxed on the value of the products they buy.
So a plumber has to spend 2-3 hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of his own services.
As any economically uninformed sttistics the breakdown of work/leisure for europeans is totally misleading if not an outright lie.
Due to government tax wedge between a produces and consumer, a plumber has to spend 3-hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of a carpenter's services who makes as much as he does.
Not being prificient with carpentry, a plumber could do the same amount of carpentry work in 2.5 hours. Under those conditions it does not make sence for them to use division of labor.
Why work 3 days for 1 day of carpenter's labor if a plumber can take 3 days of vacation, do the work in 2.5 days and have 1/2 day of leisure as pure profit?
That's right, folks. A lot of that vacation time europeans enjoy is wasted on do-it-yourself projects that an american would just hire a professional for.
Actually the same process is present in US where the cost of taxes and government regulations make it unprofitable for a person to hire a professional with the proceers of his own labor, but not as bad as in Europe - yet...
miko
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Well, that's partly true - except that the situation is totally reversed should you get in a car accident or (god forbid in the US) become permanently ill and require constant hospitalisation / care. US citizens have to pay huge amounts just to get by in everyday life such as taking kids to school - even the university level is free in some european countries. Feeding them at school, taking them to dentist or even basic vaccinations easily costs the difference in taxes. Of course all above things mean there will be a huge social gap between families. If one of the parents is unable to work, the social expense burden can prohibit the children from getting a university education for example - again something that won't happen in europe.
All those things most of us 'overtaxed' europeans take for granted.
Money aside, I value personal free time far more than material things money can buy. Life is not enjoyable if I have to focus on making money at the expense of living my life.
I'm appauled at the idea of working long hours at a constant rate. I have to admit I'm guilty of doing that, too, but only on rare occasions. Primarily I'm focusing 40% of my energy to work life and minimum of 60% to my real life.
I couldn't care less if I made millions, drove a porsche and owned several mansions if I didn't have time to enjoy free time activities.
It's not worth it if you don't have time to enjoy it.
Oh and Miko, I've never worked on my vacation - it wouldn't be a vacation if I did.
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I agree with Siaf_csf, above^. That's how I feel about it too. I don't have children of my own, but both my nieces have had a state education - my brother has not had to pay a penny. Now the elder niece is just starting at Uni. Her accommodation will have to be paid for, but I don't know about tuition fees. I never went to Uni myself, so it's a grey area for me.
An English friend of mine who works for a company in Fort Smith, AR was saying how one of his colleagues was having to dig deep into his pockets along with all the other parents at his kid's school to pay for school facilities - I think it was a gymnasium, but I'll check and post back. The point being that it was hundreds if not thousands of $ that was being asked for! The school Principal's policy was to "hit up" the parents.
Miko said That's right, folks. A lot of that vacation time europeans enjoy is wasted on do-it-yourself projects that an american would just hire a professional for.
I've never been a DIY man, apart from doing a few electricals - outside lighting and the like. I did those because I enjoyed doing it. For everything else I hired a professional. Why? Because I earned far more than those guys charged, and it didn't make economic sense to do it myself, given that as a freelance I was paid only for the days I worked. Much better to keep the money coming in, and use a small portion of it to pay the decorator etc.
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Originally posted by ra
What's wrong with the food in Finland?
Its expensive, except potatoes. In EU Finland gets in top3 when food prizes are compared.
I hate the fact, that in socialism money spending gets HEAVILY biased towards the people that doesent actually earn the money. This goes for having kids, if you cant afford to support one kid's school or insurance, then why do you make one? Or more likely, why do you make 3 of them? Your family becomes a resource hog, you make small amount of money and take the remainder from the rest of us. That money is away from their personal spending, which usually means it takes away their potential free time. Is it fair?
I have nothing against society giving basic support, meaning bread, basic medical care and warm shelter. Also student loans are good, they should be extended to lend for the actual schooling costs.
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Originally posted by miko2d
The law of diminishing returns.
The subjective value of product (reward) of every additional hour of work gets lower.
At the same time subjective value of every additionall sacrificed hour of leisure gets higher.
Once they become equal in person's subjective judjement, he stops working in favor of leisure.
The fact that most americans work more and enjoy less leisure compared to europeans just means that work is more rewarding.
The european's work is less rewarding for europeans because they get taxed on the outcome of their labor and then taxed on the value of the products they buy.
So a plumber has to spend 2-3 hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of his own services.
As any economically uninformed sttistics the breakdown of work/leisure for europeans is totally misleading if not an outright lie.
Due to government tax wedge between a produces and consumer, a plumber has to spend 3-hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of a carpenter's services who makes as much as he does.
Not being prificient with carpentry, a plumber could do the same amount of carpentry work in 2.5 hours. Under those conditions it does not make sence for them to use division of labor.
Why work 3 days for 1 day of carpenter's labor if a plumber can take 3 days of vacation, do the work in 2.5 days and have 1/2 day of leisure as pure profit?
That's right, folks. A lot of that vacation time europeans enjoy is wasted on do-it-yourself projects that an american would just hire a professional for.
Actually the same process is present in US where the cost of taxes and government regulations make it unprofitable for a person to hire a professional with the proceers of his own labor, but not as bad as in Europe - yet...
miko
Well that seems like bullhsite for me miko, i was working since i was 18 and go injured badly in my work 3 years ago (39 years old now), now i get a new education for free ( 60 % of my old pay and res is low intrest studyloan) cause of my socalled high tax I paid the years i was working.
That is a part of the socalled "kommi" country im living in I guess.
Taxes might suck but for once i needed it :)
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Originally posted by Tuomio
I hate the fact, that in socialism money spending gets HEAVILY biased towards the people that doesent actually earn the money. This goes for having kids, if you cant afford to support one kid's school or insurance, then why do you make one? Or more likely, why do you make 3 of them? Your family becomes a resource hog, you make small amount of money and take the remainder from the rest of us. That money is away from their personal spending, which usually means it takes away their potential free time. Is it fair?
I have nothing against society giving basic support, meaning bread, basic medical care and warm shelter. Also student loans are good, they should be extended to lend for the actual schooling costs.
In America you would be called a racsist/elitist/greedy, heartless bastage. I know this from personal experience.
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Originally posted by miko2d
The law of diminishing returns.
The subjective value of product (reward) of every additional hour of work gets lower.
At the same time subjective value of every additionall sacrificed hour of leisure gets higher.
Once they become equal in person's subjective judjement, he stops working in favor of leisure.
The fact that most americans work more and enjoy less leisure compared to europeans just means that work is more rewarding.
The european's work is less rewarding for europeans because they get taxed on the outcome of their labor and then taxed on the value of the products they buy.
So a plumber has to spend 2-3 hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of his own services.
As any economically uninformed sttistics the breakdown of work/leisure for europeans is totally misleading if not an outright lie.
Due to government tax wedge between a produces and consumer, a plumber has to spend 3-hours earnings to buy 1 hour worth of a carpenter's services who makes as much as he does.
Not being prificient with carpentry, a plumber could do the same amount of carpentry work in 2.5 hours. Under those conditions it does not make sence for them to use division of labor.
Why work 3 days for 1 day of carpenter's labor if a plumber can take 3 days of vacation, do the work in 2.5 days and have 1/2 day of leisure as pure profit?
That's right, folks. A lot of that vacation time europeans enjoy is wasted on do-it-yourself projects that an american would just hire a professional for.
Actually the same process is present in US where the cost of taxes and government regulations make it unprofitable for a person to hire a professional with the proceers of his own labor, but not as bad as in Europe - yet...
miko
Sometimes I like what you write, a lot... But of course waaay over their heads.. :D