Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hristo on November 30, 1999, 02:49:00 AM
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Although available to everyone, I took liberty to post this data here, as of Nov. 30th, GMT 8:30 AM.
Plane - K/D ratio
Allied planes
La 5FN - 1.52
P 51D - 1.14
Spit IX - 1.06
Axis planes
Fw 190A-8 - 1.28
George - 1.25
109G-10 - 0.81
c.205 - 0.80
Please post your opinions, just for the sake of the discussion.
If anyone is interested, here are mine:
All Allied fighters have K/D ratio higher than 1, while Axis is losing the war.
My personal congratulations on all La pilots out there. You are very few, but you seem to have mastered the plane indeed. La is obviously flown by experts, rather than newbies who try it once or twice, but end up with no fuel fast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Moreover, it is not famous from any movies or war propaganda (of western type, of course), and it is mostly underestimated.
Next, there is the best streak machine IMHO. Its only drawback it that it is too famous and thus attracts many newbies who drop its K/D ratio significantly. Smart flown P 51D is unstoppable. Maybe after guns and FM revision we see a change.
Spit has quite good K/D, considering it is used mostly as base defence fighter, against vulchers and without advantage. Its greatest ally is friendly ack. However, there are also great pilots in Spit, so please don't think I have anything against Spit pilots.
Kurt Tank's brainchild has proven a good design indeed. 190's greatest quality are very cautious pilots, however, along with opponents who merrily lose all their energy and follow 190s to their bases just to turn with them. And 190 has some aces up in its sleeve (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) 190 pilots gather valuable experience until they get the Dora. Then watch out, P 51D, you wont't run away so often.
George is quite better than I would expect, considering I always see it low and slow, and usually used in base defence.
Next, there is a real loser. Plane of aces can't find its way to success. It is burdened by most drawbacks you can find, historical and unhistorical.
Macchi is quite an unknown plane to many, and its design is not up to par with the late war monsters.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-30-1999).]
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Interesting, and useful that you point out the "pilot factor" -- where a few good La-5 pilots, for example, can make that plane shine, and a bunch of p-51 newbies can have a negative effect. Perhaps it would be interesting therefore to see the numbers of sorties in each case.
Recall too that this is a beta, and additional factors come into play:
For example, I do try my hand at testing stuff. Although I don't know what's going to be done with the ground model, I've been interested in why sometimes planes will spin in and hit the ground without exploding. Or why you can sometimes blow a landing and bounce of your cockpit. I must have run about 40 sorties, all in c.205s, testing the "Cockpit" bounce alone. (found out that the runways have different collision models than the rest. For the record, go full throttle and full flaps. Let the macchi drift off the runway. at 105-110 mph, pull up, and into a stall, leaving gear down. boing!). Ok, I should have done it offline, but it is a beta, and I like company more than I do my score.
Another factor affecting the macchi is the lethal tailwheel. A plane that tends to explode on landings will have more deaths than the others. Of course, it is a small A/C.
Size probably has something to do with it too. The 109 and 205 are not big planes, and are less likely to absorb punishment and keep flying.
It's interesting, isn't it, that the planes with the biggest guns get the highest K/D?
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"It's interesting, isn't it, that the planes with the biggest guns get the highest K/D?"
I must disagree as 205 & 109 has quite powerfull cannons and they both has bad K/D,
if I understood Your message right.
Little off topic, but what comes to C205's stalling character, it's fatal.
I've crashed my 205 many times after stalling without recovery, could be just me, but I found it really bad.
Yes, I've managed to recover from a stall too, but it takes lots of altitude to do it.
Spit has good K/D regardless of being such a dweeb plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) This states that there's group of experts of spits and much much more beginners with less than average skills.
I agree with Hristo what comes to LA-5. It has the best K/D although you rarely see it up there. It won't take many hits to explode and this clearly shows that LA-5 pilots are good ones.
Quite surprise 109's really bad K/D.Same level as macchi's. It should be somewhat same as 190A-8's as they both should use mostly BnZ technique. Perhaps it easily to involve TnB's with 109, who knows...
Just my thoughts.
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janneh you stated:
It won't take many hits to explode and this clearly shows that LA-5 pilots are good ones.
Actually, the La-5FN is really a tough aircraft, able to take quite a beating and still fly home. I think Wardog can attest to that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Janneh, here's a longer version why I consider 109G-10 an unsuccessful Arena plane.
Right now it lacks some 15-20% of power, which puts it roughly on par with G-6, or even lower. And many 109 pilots don't know it (I learned this hard way in 0.39 and am still recovering from it). P 51D caught me in spiral climb no problem, as well as matched my acceleration after we crossed paths on tree top level. I am also glad La is not flown so often. Meet one on the deck and you should really cry for help. TnB is never an option, and now it is even more dangerous. Those P 51D fly with 25% fuel, and it is amazing what this does to their TnB qualities.
Generally, late model 109s greatest disadvantage is compression and weak guns (in basic configuration). 109 has to make opponent slow down to kill him. 30mm has power, but its effective range is short (however, B 17s are alergic to it, and I recommend using single 30 mm against them, in high 11 or 1 oc passes). Sucker climbing tactics are the best for killing fighters in 109. But, arena players have option to run away, rather than climb to fight. Also, 109 has to be slower than other planes to make a kill. This makes it vulnerable to other planes in the area. Climb advantage is the hardest advantage to use against an opponent, and higher plane can easily eliminate it. What this translates to is that you just have to dive away from 109 to be safe.
OTOH, 109 is a remarkable 1 on 1 and HTH plane. I have flown it on ladder for numerous sorties, and it really shines when you try to get E advantage against an opponent. Your opponent has to kill you, he can't run away. When Arena opponent sees you have gained E advantage over him, he will run to ack or friendlies. 109 can't follow, it will compress. Building E advantage in a duel takes quite a while, and Arena is no place for long duels. You can bet your position is reported on enemy country channel, and there is a P 51D high coming to kill you.
There (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Nice analysis Hristo ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree totally.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Hristo,
I feel for you. Also, those who have waited for the C.205. Let's hope they get the F4U & the B-26(?) out soon, so that work can begin on fixing the FM. In any case, the days of the uberstang are numbered.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Put me on the Dinger side of the analysis; I think more of my deaths come from trying to set a fragile bird down than anything. Comaparitively speaking, you can slam the La5 on the ground without a scratch; try that in a Spit and you will die. One in five flights in Spits result in death for me (due to landing mishaps), and I'm veeeerrry careful about it. I bring it in flat and slow, lotsa flap and power to hold it just right. No other plane gives me any trouble!
The hardest plane (for me) to survive in in A2A is the Nikki. Oh sure, you can kill with it, but once the fight is joined you don't get out until all the bad guys are dead or running. In fact, when I enter a furball the last plane I kill is the Nikki, as it is the lowest threat. In my mind, it is the expert's plane, with lots of newbies in it looking for their "Zero".
The Macchi got the short end of the stick this time around too, and I tend to agree it more closely resembles the MC202 (except for armament) in performance. The worst part of it is the extremely erratic flight model (nose bounce, heavy trim). It's early yet, and we'll see what happens down the road. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think that the high numbers for the 190 are for the same reason as the LA5. You dont see them as often as 51s and spits but in the hands of a good pilot they can vulch like a food proccessor. Joemud had 16 kills in one mission last night. 15 were against the same guy but the stats dont know that.
The LA5 is a well flown plane. I think that the most interesting thing is that these guys are not gaming the game. They are getting in there on base defence and bomber intercepts.
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I hate to say the kieren, but I'm gonna hafta retract some of what I said.
After actually bothering to RTFM, the K/D ratios aren't pure K/D ratios. Rather they're Kills Awarded vs. Awarded as Kills.
Hristo's analysis of the 109 is spot on.
I'll also suggest (and, as always, I can be wrong) that (and I have no experience on which to judge this), something in the vert. ability of many planes (such as the Macchi and the 109) is seriously lacking. Two questions: A. The macchi, (or probly any other), trimmed for level flight, at max speed, cannot perform an immelmann -- it stalls out. Is this normal? B. As a result, one of the tactics I've seen here to avoid the B&Z and in no other on-line FS is to pull up. The booming plane at speed (no matter what it is) does not have the elevator to follow. At the appropriate moment roll inverted (because you ain't gonna get enough down elevator of that puppy), apply up elevator, roll topside and waste the fool who shoot in front of your sights trying to hit you.
Kier's right about the Macchi's stability -- only the 109 can come close WRT nose bounce. Worse, the c.205 burns so much E on turns it has to be used as a B&Z plane. In that role, it is bested by just about everything else out there.
As for the weakest guns in the game, with the 109, whether you've got the 55 magic bullets or some combo of 20mm, demands you get in close to be effective. The Macchi's 20mm feel like 151/20 knockoffs (are they?), and don't compare to the devastating punch found in the La's twins. HSs are durn fine too. So I stand by that.
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The Macchi cannon feel like MG151/20 knockoffs because they ARE MG151/20's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The La is a very nice fighter, my fav in AH by far. I thought the Pony would better it (K/D), but then I dont see many good P51 BnZ'er about. The 190's cannons have got to keep it a hi scorer. I killed a B17 @ D600 first time out, maybe a little too easy?. I've been smoked at D800 by spray and pray 190's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) .. ouch ! .. Pity about the 109G-10.
laika
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Laika-
When are you on? There are numerous 51 jocks that will pound your head over-and-over from the BnZ. When I fly the 51 is the most numerous plane, and it can be a tough nut. A P51 with a 2K vertical separation over you is imminent death. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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i guess i'll have to fly the la-5 for a while to bring that ratio down :-)
i'm surprised at the low evaluation of the n1k. as far as i can tell, it's an unbeatable flat scissors plane, which *everyone* here uses when defensive. you can get in and stay in someone's elbow all day in that thing (assuming you don't get shot up by someone else, of course!).
shower
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As long as that Nikki doesn't have you nailed to the floor, you can escape anytime with a dive. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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<puts back of hand to Shower's forehead to check temperature>
Shower you feeling alright?? ;-)
The N1K2 is "unbeatable" in a flat scissors? You must be either delirious or taking some really good drugs.
Right now, I can't think of any single fighter in AH that rolls slower than a George, and high roll rate is the key to a successful flat scissor.
Maybe you just have a different definition of what a scissors is, but to me the La5 and the Fw190 are the two best scissor planes in the game.
And FYI I am probably the biggest single defender of the N1K2 around, just check out my posts in the "Aircraft" section
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Well I'm a N1k2 person all the way. I'ts not the fastest or the best turning AC but I can get more kills with it than anything else(I won't fly the spitfire). I've been flying the P51 for a couple of days now and can get 3 or 4 kill sorties but with the N1K2 I can normally get 6 to 7 kill sorties(when not taking off from a capped base).
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Agree on scissors. 190 does them great, Niki can't follow.
Tip to 190 drivers though. Never ever HO P 51D. You will probably kill it, but in most cases he will take your wing off too.
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Hristo: I've found one thing intresting in P-51, I managed to climb 4000fpm with it and having 50% fuel, with what it flies for longer than 109 I think..
I never knew that P-51D climbs 4000fpm all the way till 20k...
Perhaps this makes it now best climbing aircraft?
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leonid:
Those times I've flown LA-5, I've noticed its weak armor (or armor modelling). You propably fly it with brains and don't get so many hits, but with my "fly style" <G>, I keep sucking those nme bullets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hristo:
I must say You have quite professional touch conserning 109 (any chance You played WB with callsign -ik--? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
I agree what comes to flat scissors. 109's best bet. After we get 109F-4 I'll be there with scissors (on weekends I do them even on runway, heheh).
Very interesting thread, keep it alive.
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i dissagree the key to winning in scissors is not matching the roll but matching the decceleration and the n1k deccerates very well. all i know is that the only time i can kill someone is if they try to scissor, then it's a gimme. then again, i can do it reasonably well in a 109, too, and it doesn't deccelerate all that well. maybe i'm just good at it.
shower
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lol janneh.
Kind of funny, I think the whole 109G-10 problem is just ht and pyro continuing in the warbirds tradition of "This plane shall suck." Post war test pilots who were the most harsh critics of the 109 admitted that the 109G-6 handily outclimbed the P-51D, the 109G-10 had 325 more hp than the 109G-6. I remember not long ago there was a lot of complaining going on by people about the 109G-10 of AH, that it accelertated and climbed so well, their P-51's just couldn't keep up! Call me a fanatic, but I think they were trying to beat the 109 at its own game and now the 109 has been castrated due to those ill-founded complaints. In any sim made by ht and pyro, a 109 pilot must be happy to fly only at nose bleed altitudes, and only accept fights with those who are stupid enough to fly slow and below him. It's such a shame, many flight sims seem to model the 109 from the perspective of allied test pilots, who gave it a reputation of being a very difficult, unforgiving aircraft. Ironically, LW pilots who had the opportunity to fly P-51's and P-47's after the war criticized them in the same way allied test pilots did the 109.
If you have thought about it enough, you know nearly everything is a matter of perspective, what's true is probably somewhere in the middle ground. I don't see that sort of wisdom here.
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ik:
Thank you for your ... constructive criticism?
Pyro has stated that he agrees that the 109 appears underpowered, and has also stated that the C.205 needs to be looked at in more detail. Do you follow this board enough to read most of it? In fact, do you play AH at all?
To those who actually like and play AH:
This flightsim started on the last week of September, so that gives it a current life of about ... two months. HTC have been up front about the fact that the FM needs some serious work, not because it is flawed in any way, but because they have been working on making sure the engine is stable as well as the network setup. The FM merely hasn't been attended to with any great detail yet, because if the engine doesn't work smoothly or the network setup is porked you can forget about any FM.
Please remember that it has been a mere two months since open beta. And, more importantly, remember it is a beta. HTC expects us to report and discuss our findings and views about AH, but within the context of a team helping to build and refine what will eventually become a finished product. Making inflammatory posts that call into question the competence of the HTC staff has no merit, except for ones ego(I have been guilty of this myself with WB, but realized what I was doing and withdrew from actively participating in any WB boards). We are here to help and advise HTC with the building of what promises to be a great game. Constructive feedback would be much more appropriate than condemning flames.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 12-01-1999).]
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Hear Hear Leonid.
Sometimes the vieled threats, accusations of cheating and outraged screams of rage on this message board have astounded me. I think the dev team deserves an exceptional award just for being so calm and level headed with the most accusatory and inflammatory posters. I know I wouldn't deal with some of the crap thrown at them in such a calm way.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Hristo wrote:
"Generally, late model 109s greatest disadvantage is compression and weak guns (in basic configuration)"
Compression is a fact. Only combat experience I have is from WB, ie WB's way of modelling planes. From there I 've got this idea of "too heavy for airframe".
I mean if You fly 109F-4 and then 109G6 or K4, it's obviously how different they are on combat. F will maneuver really good compared to G & K.
But what is difference with F & G. G has more armor & more powerful engine (?) and 13mm MG's (G6 that is). Could it be that center of gravity has changed too much ? I believe the basic air frame is same on F & G ?
Someone enlight me, plz !
ik wrote:
"I remember not long ago there was a lot of complaining going on by people about the 109G-10 of AH, that it accelertated and climbed so well, their P-51's just couldn't keep up!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You should visit here more often and throw Your famous hooks, they worked on AGW and they work here as well, I see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yeah, this is only beta and really good one.
Also we have here one heck of a community already.
I agree with Sorrow, HTC is and should be calm on these matters. It's essential to listen players, but at the same time, put things to order of importance. I think HTC is doing that great, although I haven't seen my 109F-4 yet... =)
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Ik: hehe, lets ask some german pilot group do WW II flight simulator, see what we get then, lousy P51s and uber 109s? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Agreed, Leonid. I don't think game designers favor any particular aircraft when modeling FMs.
However, I believe some planes enjoy some unrealistic advantages, while other suffer from certain disadvantages. Therefore I hope FMs will get checked and rechecked again.
Also, I think A-8 was not a good choice to fight P-51D, as Dora would be. However, the longer you let 190 plots fly A-8, the more dangerous they will be in the Doras (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hristo:
I personally like the A-8 better than D-9 against P-51 or any other a/c for that matter. I would prefer an even older A, like A-4. And don't think I want to make Fw 190 a lesser plane than it is, cause I am rather fanatic about it. IMO we're not getting the short end of the stick here, but then again it's premature to say much with out seeing D-9 in AH.
My preference is based on WB with zero real stick time in any of the planes, and like we've seen ( AH G-10 vs. WB K-4 ) you really can't trust one sim's modeling to carry over to another: good or bad traits.
//fats
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CC, fats, A-8 can hold its own even now.
However, Dora was made to fight Mustangs, and it did it. And a real beauty it was.
Also, Dora is a matter of personal taste (dweebishess) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Didn't the 190D have less range than the A Models?
Mino
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I never liked the G series 109 FWIW....
I opted for the F and maybe K in WB's....
Some of my most memorable fights were in F's...it was great executing a climbing spiral on some dweeb.....
The K was a rocket and not much else....and that clip was pitiful.....For a while the 110G2R2 was the ride for me....those 30mm's were unbeatable...Some HO FW dweeb does a BnZ and BOOOMMMM ! EAT IT FW ! A fat stream of 30mm will make you think twice.
AH FE crashes on me and I been on the fence since.
JHL
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"Some of my most memorable fights were in F's...it was great executing a climbing spiral on some dweeb....."
Oooh, the good old times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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a lot of people complain about compression in the 109. lower flaps during a dive and the problem goes away.
shower
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Shower:
Being able to lower flaps in a dive will eventually be nixed in AH. The reason is that realistically it couldn't be done. And if for some reason an aircraft could drop flaps, the chance of damage to the flaps was very real and probable.
In fact, almost all flaps will 'blow back', that is return to their original position if they are dropped above a certain airspeed. This is a safety feature. What that speed is varies from aircraft to aircraft and from whatever drop angle even.
A better way to get a 109 out of a hi-speed dive is to use elevator trim to pull up.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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if you really believe that a German AH, using German test data from WW2, and German pilot comments would be anything like this AH, you have a lot to learn about human nature (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Which is the right way? Neither, probably somewhere in the middle. I'm surprised that anyone who has flown WB would trust the same game creators to make a proper 109G!
Leonid, yes I've tried AH, didn't like it much, but I think it has potential
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hey guess what, I just read the "cajones" thread and pyro posted that he porked the 109 on accident. hehe.
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yeah, i know that a real plane couldn't use its flaps, it's just to compensate for the exagerrated compresibility in the 109. i assume they will address the flight model issues with the 109 before they remove the ability to use flaps.
-shower
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shower, i don't know that it's exaggerated. Most of what I've read says it isn't.
btw, i've used the AH 109 in the same way i used to use the WB 109K-4 with no problems. i can dive down 5000ft. for a gun pass at 400mph with engine almost idle, firewall it back up 5000ft., then do it all over again, and again, and again. what's the big deal? i have always loved the fact that the 109s can pounce from above with almost idling throttles, because it makes the gun pass so much more controllable. and the fact that it regains its alt so easily allows for it.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Well, just checked the numbers again and there's seems to be very little changes;
La-5 1.47
190 1.30
George 1.29
P-51D 1.14
Spit 1.04
109 0.79
F4U 0.78
C205 0.77
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F4U that low ? Interesting.
Still, not long enough with us. Also, I notice improvement in F4U pilot quality every day.
190 really has to be careful when F4U is around.
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Ya, he is right. you guys should give up ur dweebstangs for the f4u. I ll be a good target in my 190.
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It isn't any one P51 that I fear.
Or La5.
Or 190.
Or any of the aircraft.
It's getting caught out of position by a cloud of any type of aircraft.
Face it, all of you guys are good enough to avoid almost any single enemy (except in the most extreme circumstances). I propose that the plane set is far more balanced than many think, and the problem is more of getting mobbed. Every aircraft (save the C205) has something it does very well. 1 vs. 1 on dissimilar aircraft should therefore offer at least an opportunity to escape, if not kill, any opponent.
As difficult as it may be we need to wipe all comparison to Brand W away and try to sort all the aircraft out anew. We need to wait for flight model refinements in the next few revisions (I suspect the 109 will be restored this week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). It'll be ok in the end. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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..clouds, oh yes, CLOUDS !
Yesterday was great fights over F21 when clouds arrived there, COOL !
I wish more clouds or a cloud layer, it was just sooo fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)