Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on September 18, 2003, 09:57:56 PM
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Funny but shallow and full of poor arguments and illogical reasoning...
One of my favorites is where he points out Canada's higher poverty rates by stating that Canada has twice the unemployment rate of the USA, mening that we cant explain the US crime rates as a factor of poverty. Of course he does not concern himself or really criticize the disasterous effects of such high unemployment. Then later in the segment he praises Canada for moch higher government concern and spending for social services and social security programs. No doubt his fans will fail to nice the causal relationship between high taxes and business costs required for all those programs and unemployment...
He also betrays his millionaire limousine liberals incensitivity to real world people in criticizing a US government program that allows poor people access to higher paying jobs. He all but ridiculed one man's efforts to join this program so that he could earn ONLY $2-3 more per hour over the $5.50 wage he could earn in Detroit.. Whats the problem with that, does moore not realize that is basically a 50% increase in this mnas income. But hell if you are rich man like Moore and his Hollywood buddies I'm sure making any effory for a few dollars seems nonsensical and even cruel...
I guess none of this would matter except that Mr. Moore poses himself as some champion of the working people when he is obviously anything but...
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Rich people and anyone who wants a gun or deals with the military are evil.
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i actually thought it was an interesting movie. But all he did was point out flaws and not offer any solutions.
Roger and Me is by far was his best work to date.
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OK GRUNHERZ, at least you didn't cry "it's not a documentary!"
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Roger and Me is intersting too and better than this one. But looking back on it he mostly harrases working class security guards, secretaries and lobby attendants through most of the film - the very people he's supposedly representing. Then of course there was that bizzare "meat or pets" scene with the rabbits.
I liked Roger and Me when I first saw it but I no loger find it very meaningful especially since just criticizes and ridicules peoples attempts to solve the problems.
I do wonder what kind of lifestyle Moore lives and how he would respond if some pushy uninvited camera crew was stalking him at home or at work.
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I'm glad I watched it, so I know what's being talked about. The cartoon sequence was funny in how it depicted America's policy of enslaving blacks in centuries gone by, and how that came back to bite America in the bum.
He could have left out the Lockheed Martin stuff.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
i actually thought it was an interesting movie. But all he did was point out flaws and not offer any solutions.
Roger and Me is by far was his best work to date.
Roger and Me is the whole reason I want to see this one. The split between seeing what was going on in the community compared to the layoffs was very interesting.
From what I’ve heard though I’m not sure this one is very objective.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I'm glad I watched it, so I know what's being talked about. The cartoon sequence was funny in how it depicted America's policy of enslaving blacks in centuries gone by, and how that came back to bite America in the bum.
He could have left out the Lockheed Martin stuff.
The cartoon was increibly stupid, inncuruate and racist. It basically said that america invented and initated the slave trade and that whites went to africa to "kidnap" people which cannot be farther from the truth as the real slave dealer and "kidnappers" were nearly without exception africans. Of course he also tried to tie the NRA to the KKK which incredibly offensive and innacurate. I have no doubt that thje unducated hollywood set and ignorant euro USA bashers loved that comfortable little history lesson.
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dont ya hate it when they make slavery look all bad and stuff and make people who see no problem with owning their fellow man seem of questionable moral quality.
take away his oscar!
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
dont ya hate it when they make slavery look all bad and stuff and make people who see no problem with owning their fellow man seem of questionable moral quality.
take away his oscar!
That slavery is bad is obvious, that Americans or even whites in general started the slave trade - as is presented by Moore in the film- is a flat out lie.
Thake your pick...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I have no doubt that thje unducated hollywood set and ignorant euro USA bashers loved that comfortable little history lesson.
I find the irony of this statement to be just a tiny bit hilarious.
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Find funny or ironic whatever you want but tell me that you think that little cartoon bit was a good lil history lesson and then I'll enyoy a slight laugh too.
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I'm betting he takes the lie.
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I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine, so I can't comment on the film. However, if what Grunherz says about the cartoon is a fact, that it portrays whites as the only slave owners, then that is a lie.
There were at least 300 black plantation owners in the anti-bellum South. They were wealthy families and free men. I don't know how the system was back then for slave owning. But it must not have been based on race, otherwise how could there be black plantation owners?
There certainly is more to the slavery question than meets the eye. It is complex, like all important things are. It should be better researched before showing cartoons and ridiculing a "race" for imprisoning another race. Don't you think?
Les
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Haven't seen it yet, but i guess i'll have to. It must have alot of interesting stuff in it to provoke so many people.
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Think i have to see it too :D
what was the name of it ?
If its been out for awhile i guess its on video now ?
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It's available in eDonkey.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The cartoon sequence was funny in how it depicted America's policy of enslaving blacks in centuries gone by, and how that came back to bite America in the bum.stuff.
I'm sure you are referring to the British policy of using slaves in their North American colonies.
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It's pretty good. Raises some tought-provoking questions, but since I'm not from "the island" it's none of my business. The three years I spent there was not without handgun related incidents, though :(
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Originally posted by ra
I'm sure you are referring to the British policy of using slaves in their North American colonies.
Wasn't one of the themes in the Civil war the issue of slavery? Slavery was still going strong in the 1860s, long after America's independence from Britain.
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As an aside lets put the slave trade in terms the current USA haters might understand - of course they wont...
For example one could say something like:
We should be far more concerned with England's arrogant misuse of her imperialistic power to meddle in the internal affairs of independant african powers by banning the slave trade and enforcing such a ban with her military might - shame on england that evil imperialist warmongering pig of a country!!!!!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
As an aside lets put the slave trade in terms the current USA haters might understand - of course they wont...
For example one could say something like:
We should be far more concerned with England's arrogant misuse of her imperialistic power to meddle in the internal affairs of independant african powers by banning the slave trade and enforcing such a ban with her military might - shame on england that evil imperialist warmongering pig of a country!!!!!
LOL - I think. You'll enjoy meeting Tomato next month, and talking about this stuff - if you want to.
Just as an aside, the laws mandating the abolition of slavery throughout the British Empire were drafted in my home county, only 2 miles from where I grew up. The temple is a hotel these days - had my 21st birthday party there in... well, quite a while ago. ;)
http://www.templarsites.org.uk/engl-mid/leics/019-index-rothley.html
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Originally posted by beet1e
Wasn't one of the themes in the Civil war the issue of slavery? Slavery was still going strong in the 1860s, long after America's independence from Britain.
Yes, Britain has clean hands when discussing North American slavery. After all, they outlawed slavery in the empire in the 1820's, nearly forty years before the US Civil War.
The fact that european controlled enslavement of natives and Africans in North America began before 1500 is irrelevant. That they outlawed it first washes all.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yes, Britain has clean hands when discussing North American slavery. After all, they outlawed slavery in the empire in the 1820's, nearly forty years before the US Civil War.
Indeed, which takes us back to what ra said, in his attempt to stir the cauldron - I'm sure you are referring to the British policy of using slaves in their North American colonies.
Slavery continued in America long after its abolition throughout the British Empire, and long after America became independent from Britain.
So the B for C cartoon sequence was as I said - a depiction of America's policy of enslaving blacks.
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So apparently you believe that 35 or 40 years is a long time in historical terms.
So if that is the case, then 140 years must be ancient history, and that is when America shed the blood of 500,000 soldiers to end its history of slavery.
If it is truly, as you apparently believe, ancient history, why do you argue so?
America shed its shackles 140 years ago, and the British Empire shed hers 40 years sooner. That makes them relatively concurrent in my perspective, and one shouldn't strut around claiming moral superiorty because their country stopped being evil a bit sooner.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So apparently you believe that 35 or 40 years is a long time in historical terms.
No. I come from a country in which we have 900 year old cathedrals. It is Americans who think history began in the last 240 years. :lol I always remember a classic line in a Steve Martin movie. He's showing people around LA, and points out that some of the buildings are twenty years old! :eek:
We had slavery, and that was bad, and it was abolished. It was no longer British policy - at a time when it continued in America. The BfC cartoon refers to boatloads of African slaves being brought over to America. Britain had nothing to do with it by then. The ships did not route through a British port, and we didn't claim any tax! My point has nothing to do with claiming moral superiority.
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Originally posted by beet1e
We had slavery, and that was bad, and it was abolished.
Of course it was abolished. With the British class system all of those slots were already filled, in perpetuity. There's another example of a system that bites you on the bum.
ra
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We had slavery, and that was bad, and it was abolished.
We just had it forty years later than you did. In some states.
Pennsylvania, the first state to abolish slavery, did it in 1780, 40 years before Britian, hence my "concurrent" statement. Vermont abolished slavery before that but was not yet a state.
It may be interesting to you that I have seen structures in the USA dating back 1500+ years. The thought that history begins at one's birth is not exclusive to America.
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Originally posted by ra
Of course it was abolished. With the British class system all of those slots were already filled, in perpetuity. There's another example of a system that bites you on the bum.
ra
But there's no cartoon about the British class system!
The BfC cartoon was a hoot. :lol
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Originally posted by beet1e
But there's no cartoon about the British class system!
The BfC cartoon was a hoot. :lol
Is the cartoon a documentary too?
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Originally posted by ra
Is the cartoon a documentary too?
Ask the people who award the Oscars!
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Originally posted by beet1e
The BfC cartoon was a hoot. :lol
Only if you are ignorant, now you aren't ignorant beetle, are you? ;) :( :mad: :lol :eek:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Only if you are ignorant, now you aren't ignorant beetle, are you? ;) :( :mad: :lol :eek:
Hehe - no, but the cartoon sequence did seem to make a good point.
Unlike many here, I didn't take BfC that seriously. But some good points were made.
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It was simply a series of lies. Apprently the main purpose was to tie in US gun culture to racism and concentration of "white" power through some supposed special relationship between the NRA and the KKK. But what point do you think it made?
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Ask me next month! :cool:
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:)
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Grunherz you make some good points but you spoil it with your overblown rhetoric and certainty sometimes. I suspect you'll mellow a bit with age and dare I say it, wisdom. The world isn't quite as black and white as you seem to think it is. I speak from experience.
It wasn't lies, grunherz, it was flavoured opinion, some truth some inaccuracy. Same as your opinions. A lie is a deliberate act. Moore is just airing his view of the world.
Now I haven't seen BfC but I'm familiar with Moore's work. Frankly you need people like him to burst some people's bubbles. He is quite right about so many things but like you blows it by exaggerating. Sometimes I'm not sure if he can tell the difference between entertainment and political commentary. But ultimately his purpose is to make you think about what is going on around you and less willing to accept all the BS being fed to us by politicians, media and business of all persuasions. I take everything with a pinch of salt these days. Me personally: I'm a left wing right winger, a liberal with lefty instincts and right wing sympathies. In a word, a moderate. I think like most of us. That's the best place to be.
On the slavery issue. Europeans didn't invent it. It was around for millenia. It's still with us in one form or another. As for African slaves, well the truth is that Africans sold other Africans as slaves to Europe and America and indeed Africans maintained the slave trade within Africa right up to the early twentieth century. America was just a bit behind the other western countries in abolishing slavery. But that doesn't mean they were entirely responsible for it. For people of any colour to continue to raise the issue of slavery in the USA 140 years after it was abolished is ludicrous. Nobody alive has any responsibility for slavery back then and nobody can claim that their life has been effected by their ancestors being slaves. It's just opportunism and excuses. As far as I'm concerned it's a non issue. People should be more concerned with modern slavery which is ongoing all over the world right now. The latest edition of National Geographic highlighted that. Maybe people should exercise the 'angst and trauma' on that issue.
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Ya know.... the movie seemed to say that the more racialy divese you are the more gun violence you will have.
lazs