Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SMERSH on September 18, 1999, 07:35:00 PM
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I'm impressed with the new WB flight model in the beta. The planes no longer fly like they're on iron rails (Quakebirds anyone?)
The planes now have a greater feeling of inertia and you have to think ahead, cuz you can't just jerk the stick around and expect the plane to respond instantaneously the way you want. This lack of inertia has been a BIG problem with flight models up to this point in AW / WB, so it's good to see it being addressed.
I hope Hitech is paying close attention to this, so that AH flight model has similar or better flight model with inertia.
Can't wait for the open beta. It's before end of this month right?
Thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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ya know i think it is a feeling imparted with tha realistic time resposes of control surfaces.
but you are right it makes the whole thing alot better. hard to believe that much improvement from such a simple thing. (hitech creations team fly new version for a few min i think it will be worth it, as the change sounds easy to implement in a new game.)
and it is the first thing imol did right this year im my opinion.
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Actually, there used to be built in delays in some of the 1.xx versions of WB.
It's funny that you mention lack of inertia as a problem. One of the things my modeling used to catch a lot of criticism over was the high roll inertia. When PC Test Pilot reviewed the flight model of 2.5, they said the pitch and yaw response was excellent but that the roll inertia was too high. This spring I went and dug up a lot of information on moments of inertia and found that that criticisms had been very valid. This is something that HT confirmed during his P-51 flight as well. He found the response to be so quick that it didn't take much input to get your head smacked by the side of the canopy if you weren't set for it.
The end result is that you'll see something more crisp, not sluggish, in the roll than anything I've done before.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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It is not greater inertia that is modelled, but the timelag to account for the real forces needed to move the stick.
Allthough far from being an expert, only a GA pilot, i think the inertia (not the timelag on the stick) really is overdone, especially in roll.
The new stick timelag seems to be an improvement, it really feels more real, but the rudder timelag is maybe a bit overdone IMO (Only tried it 15 minutes or so).
Bod
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I think the new WB feature is great. If you're doing 300 mph look out at your wing tip while moving the stick left & right. What I see is much more akin to what I see when flying GA aircraft. Instant response works for aerobatic competition aircraft but I doubt so much for 10,000 pound warbirds.
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Lt. Jg. Windle
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) 'The Jolly Rogers' 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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The aerodynamic forces on an ac moving at 300 mph are much larger than the rolling inertia. These forces also work on the control surfaces, thus an airplane start a roll with a slow rate due to the large muscle forces needed, but when letting go of the stick it should stop rolling at a fast rate.
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I have video from the back seat of a P51D mustang during an airshow where the pilot goes through all the "moves". I think one thing that should be taken into account is that things seem alot more dramatic from the inside, especially when your experiencing the G's, than they would appear by just "seeing" the visual. Also remember, the wings weren't loaded down with gun barrels and ammo.
As far as the new WB model, I have no clues about what the "real" numbers should be, but I can say that the "experience" certainly mimics my expectations after reading countless anecdotal stories. I was seeing FW's outmanouver my 109 due to it's superior roll performance, and I thought that was right on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Perhaps G's vs. pilot fatigue vs. stick forces are the mystery values that make recreating combat conditons and performance so elusive in flight simms.
Conclusion: I dunno (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Can't stand it when people want WWII airplanes to fly like Cessna's and AirBuses
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
--Curly..
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? Curly
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Lt. Jg. Windle
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) 'The Jolly Rogers' 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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Yes Windle?
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The new stick timelag seems to be an improvement, it really feels more real, but the rudder timelag is maybe a bit overdone IMO
The 'timelag' effect is a bit misleading I suppose as you're pushing a piece of plastic around as fast as you can yet it wouldn't happen like that in the actual cockpit.
Do the forcefeedback sticks give a truer impression with it being harder to move the stick and so keep more in-sync with the actual plane's behavior?
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Glars
RNZAF
http://glarsmaps.warbirds.org (http://glarsmaps.warbirds.org)
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Hi Pyro,
Im a friend of the PC Test pilot guy and we have talked a fair bit about the roll of Warbirds (game) aircraft.
Out of all the combat sims on the market, European Air War is one of the most realistic for roll.
In MY opinion, Warbirds 2.73 gets the roll entry correct, if a little slow, to get to full deflection, but the EXIT of the roll is still terrible (I cant wait to hear what PC TEST pilot says about it <g> ) .
An aircraft doesnt roll much after you centralise the controls. It certainly doesnt wallow around half a roll.
PC TEST pilot did a demo at RETNUHs place showing real life compared to our simulations.
Have you ever tried doing 8 point rolls in Warbirds? It is a waste of time, WAY to sloppy after centralising controls.
I am excited to hear that you are making the rolls 'crisp' .
My thoughts are it takes force to deflect an aileron, but would take a lot less force to centralise the controls.
These are exciting times for simmers....
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There has been alot of talk about roll force etc. so I though I would add my two cents worth. stick force does increase with airspeed in almost all mechanical type control surfaces, but control effectiveness also increases do to increased airflow across the control surfaces. At higher airspeed it takes less control defection to produce the same roll rate in most aircraft. The exception comes when there is to much positive stablity, or poor aerodynamic flow at high speeds.
Increased control forces at high speed also mean that there is less control force needed to neutralize the controls (something Warbirds 2.73 seems to have left out.) Flight control stick length also determines control forces. A longer control stick means a more efficient lever, and great force can be applied with less effort.
Grak
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"When PC Test Pilot reviewed the flight model of 2.5, they said the pitch and yaw response was excellent but that the roll inertia was
too high."
Pyro I was thinking the same exact thing and laughing my bellybutton off.
I've seen Robert A. "Bob" Hoover do 16 point rolls in a P-51D and there is no way you can do that with the WB 2.73 abortion of a flight model!
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I've seen Robert A. "Bob" Hoover do 16 point rolls in a P-51D and there is no way you can do that with the WB
2.73 abortion of a flight model!
Just tried to do 8 pt rolls in WB P51d - toejam your right, mashed potatoes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well I'll be damned, the tide is begining to turn! I thought I was one of the only guys who were calling bull on the FM (with the exception of Hobo) of 2.73.
In fact, tonight I am totally rebuilding my rudders including a new pot to see if it's my controllers that are making the 2.73 experience such a dismal one.
I think there is some room to adjust down from the super-fast reactions the Warbird FM has now but this rev went waaaayyy to far and has ruined the fun for me.
Humm, will be interesting to watch developments...and I'm very much ready to move into open beta with Aces High.
Merlin
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Well FWIW I don't have a problem flying the WB 2.73 aircraft. But that's not to say I think it's better than the old version. The old versions did a pretty darn good job with stick forces IMHO. Just look at the roll response differences between a P-38J and a P-38L for an example.
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i asked the question in another forum but got no answer,in wb if you fly on easy the fm is nice but slugish in easy off mode the spin factor unrealistic ww2 fighters didn't spin out just because you give full pitch roll or yaw motion... In a p-51 was full of fuel the center of gravity was bad and a quick roll would cause a spin but after the center tank was lowered to 1/2 the center of gravity would become better to the piont that roll spin was not a problem... I would like to know if this issue has been address to fly a plane that isn't sluggish you must take easy off and then spin outs make the game no fun to play!!!!!!!
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I've never flown a warbird, but I've flown a few aerobatic planes, most recently a Yak-52 primary trainer. It is fully aerobatic, pilots were intended to transition to high-performance planes from the Yak-52. One thing that really stands out is the responsiveness of the plane to even slight movements of the stick. For the first 10 seconds or so I was flying along with the wings rocking back and forth, unintentionally. I finally got the hang of it: think 'roll', and it rolls.
That's also how I've heard the P-51 described.
The new WB model is a joke, IMHO. The alleged reason for setting up the roll inertia was to prevent micro-warps, but changing the FM to prevent micro-warps is dumb. The place to prevent micro-warps is at the FE, where the other plane's roll rate can be dampened so as not to get the warp effect.
Of all the planes in WB I've flown since the new FM, the P-51 is the most adversely affected.
--ra--
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How can we address an issue that isn't our game. AH is not WB.
HiTech
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I am sorry ht I ment is the real flight spin outs going to be a prob in ah the reason i used wb for reference is because for the last 2 yrs in all the up grades to wb nothing was done about that and i was interested to know if when ya'll designed you sim if that was something that is in the real flight model of AH.....
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All I can tell you is on the P51 I can sense no difference between Aces High's departures and the departures I experenced flying and fighting the real thing.
HiTech
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Great HiTech in the other game did you se a difference in the model and the real thing
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God I am SO glad to hear some sensible discussion on this issue. I've been living in fear that AH would go the way of WB 2.73. This one issue is what has completely turned the tide swiftly in the favor of AH.
Hitech, Pyro, I'm damn glad to see that you intend to keep the AH FM as *real* as possible. These planes are high performance planes (even by today's standards) and they shouldn't be dumbed down in any fashion to appeal to the "masses" or "fix" limitiations of the internet.
As many of you know, I have been very vocal about this on AGW. I'm certain I've lost friends (virtual and othwerwise) over my passionate post today, but 3 days of hearing people say I was wrong, when my heart and mind knew I was at MINIMUM partially right, left me with a very short fuse. Hotseat lit that fuse with his snide remarks and signing his message with all the Phd's and degree's that he's earned. Desktop Engineering at it's worse IMO.
If it weren't for my squaddies and friends, I would cancel my WB account today. But since my squaddies and friends are important to me, I will wait until we can all join in on the AH beta. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, since this forum is intended for AH, I think this subject should die a slow death. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hobo
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i am sure they built an easymode in AH for you hobo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ah Hobo, so you have no Mac guys in your squad?
Bye bye then, when you get the "real" simulation...
Inet, you are spending much too much time on boards. Hope we see us again this evening flying WB2.7r4. Some people here shout without knowing what they are shouting about, lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ireg- III./JG3 "Udet"
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Damn, this Hobo guy is everywhere! Wonder if he has a job? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
wizzer
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What's a job? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Inet...Oh never mind, you're not worth it.
Ireg...When did I say ANYTHING about Macs? Sounds like you're blaming me for HTC's business decision. Have you got a case of PC envy?
Hobo
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There were several references to "PC Test Pilot" in this thread. What is it? Where can I see it?
Thanks
Fester
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I believe you will find it at www.pctestpilot.com. (http://www.pctestpilot.com.)
Hobo
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Hobo, in the moment you even don't notice when you get some applause... tststs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Because I think you are surely a nice guy I made the note you have no Mac guys in your squad or among your friends. Because a nice guy like you would surely not leave them behind, standing in the rain, would he?
-Ireg- III./JG3 "Udet"
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Hehehe...I guess it was the combination of the Mac comment and this comment:
"Bye bye then, when you get the "real" simulation"
...doesn't sound much like applause to me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have a great day!
Hobo
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INET ROFLPMSL