Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on September 21, 2003, 07:26:39 AM
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What I've noticed over'n over is that spits can dive with 190s the first 5000 feet (starting at lo speeds), then the 190s outdives the spits. But what most reports describe is just the opposite. How should it be?
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Believe 190 just as other heavier planes such as the P47 had exelent acceleration in dives. All reports state that the 190 could outdive the spit (usually with eas) in the initial stages. It also kept on outdiving however as the speed increased the superiority decreased.
Same thing with the Jug, it could outdive about every other plane in the ETO, not the case in AH IMO.
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I know is frustrating sometimes. From what i read the fw 190 when bounced by a spit would flick into a dive and "leave the spit standing".Here are some exemples from the british evaluation of a FW 190 A3:
Dive: Comparative dives between the two aircraft have shown that the FW 190 can leave the Spitfire (V) with ease, particularly during the initial stages.
Manoeuvrability. The manoeuvrability of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire VB except in turning circles, when the Spitfire can quite easily out-turn it. The FW 190 has better acceleration under all conditions
of flight and this must obviously be most useful during combat.
Dive: The FW 190 is faster than the Spitfire IX in a dive, particularly during the initial stage. This superiority is not as marked as with the Spitfire VB.
Manoeuvrability: The FW 190 is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire IX except in turning circles.
The superior rate of roll of the FW 190 enabled it to avoid the Spitfire IX by turning over into a diving turn in the opposite direction.
The initial acceleration of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire IX under all conditions of flight, except in level flight at altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage.
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire9v190.htm
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Is there any comparisions of diffrent 190 models against the diffrent spits. I wouldnt mind knowing the comparison of the 190 d-9 to the IX and Perk version, I already understand its advantages on the V models due to facing alot. I find the 190 outclimbs and ourtuns this spit version with great ease
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rs johnson [p-47 pilot] wrote in his book that when he played tag with a spit he could leave it behind by diving at will. also johnson got to fly a spit and i believe his quote was something like this: "in the p-47 you point the nose down and you dive like hell; the spit you have to fly down".
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I believe that Spits accelerate too rapidly in dives in AH. Their top dive speeds are fine, but their acceleration across their whole dive speed spectrum seems too fast.
Unfortunately I don't have any hard numbers to back this up.
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Lol, the pilots actually played tag? :rofl
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I second you on this Karnak, - our Spit V in particular accelerates too fast in the initial stages of dive.
However, looking at terminal speed after a dive from high altitude, the Spit is the Champion, - doesn't it hold the WW2 absolute speed record?
There are some factors to be looked at in AH's flight model, and we should see those in AH II, always good to keep reminding HTC :D
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The only data I have on dives is the same data you have all seen from the AFDU Tactical Trials. I will post those relevant sections here for easier reference:
Spitfire LF.Mk IX (Merlin 66, +18lbs boost)*
vs Bf109G-6/U-2:
Comparitive dives between the two aircraft have shown that the Me.109 can leave the Spitfire without any difficulty.
*Note, this is a LF.Mk IX which is superior to the F.Mk IX (Merlin 61) in AH.
Spitfire F.Mk XIV (Griffon 65, +18lbs boost)*
vs Spitfire Mk IX:
The Spitfire XIV will pull away from the Spitfire IX in a dive.
vs Tempest Mk V:
The Tempest V gains on the Spitfire XIV.
vs Mustang Mk III:
As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away, but less markedly.
vs Fw190 (BMW.801D):
After the initial part of the dive, during which the FW 190 gains slightly, the Mk XIV has a slight advantage.
...
In the attack it can afford to "mix it" but should beware of the quick roll and dive. If this manoeuvre is used by the FW.190 and the Spitfire XIV follows, it will probably not be able to close the range until the FW.190 has pulled out of its dive.
vs Bf109G:
During the initial part of the dive, the Me.109G pulls away slightly, but when a speed of 380 m.p.h. is reached, the Spitfire XIV begins to gain on the Me.109G.
*This is the same as the Spitfire Mk XIV in AH.
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Originally posted by Angus
doesn't it hold the WW2 absolute speed record?
There are some factors to be looked at in AH's
As far as I remember, the only Spit record was to have one of the most unaccurate WW2 speedometers.
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I sure do love the abundance of good science going on in this thread.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
As far as I remember, the only Spit record was to have one of the most unaccurate WW2 speedometers.
You are wrong in this case MANDOBLE. The dive speed wasn't even calculated from within the Spitfire.
I know you hate the very concept of the Spitfire and wish R J Mitchell had died before designing it, but you really need to try to reduce your bias.
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The spitfire's had very good aerodynamic from the start from what I have read.
I would think it could reach very high speed by the end of the war with all the improvements they made to it.
I am no expert, it just seems logical.
As to how fast, that is a question for people who know there stuff. Like HT and some guys on these boards.
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R.A.E Farnborough, report aero 1906. Jan 44.
Drag and trim changes on Spitfire, Mustang and Thunderbolt in flight at high mach numbers.
Spit XI.
(http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/SD+11.jpg)
Neil.
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Hi Neil,
>Drag and trim changes on Spitfire, Mustang and Thunderbolt in flight at high mach numbers.
Wow, that's EXTREMELY cool information! :-) Do you have the corrosponding Mustang and Thunderbolt charts, too? I'd love to see them!
Note the right-hand column - that's energy.
Interestingly, during the dive from 40000 ft to 30000 ft, the Spitfire hardly loses any energy. This initial dive seems to be slightly "unloaded" judging from the acceleration column. The change in elevator angle doesn't look like a result of trim changes, but rather like the begin of the pull-out (or at least some pulling up).
Of course, the elevator forces are not indicated, so it's hard to say how good the handling qualities were in the dive. The maximum Mach number of 0.89 is quite impressive! Interestingly, it coincedes with the maximum Mach number an unmodified Me 109G airframe reached during similar tests.
The Me 109G was limited in the dive by aileron overbalance, probably indicating aeroelastic deformation of the wing. The Spitfire had the same method of wing construction and also suffered from some aeroelasticity problems. Mike Ssalamander's "Up in Harm's Way" gives some good insights on the Spitfire, and Radinger/Otto/Schick's description of the Me 109 diving trials leads me to believe that in the Me 109, you had to be careful with roll inputs during a dive just in the same way.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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AH Bf109G6 often has some conisedarble trouble diving away from even our SpitIX... :)
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Utterly informative chart there!
Anyway, does anyone have a link or more information about the diving trials at Farnborough (?) where the Spit reached the highest mach number of all prop planes? Would love to know more about that.
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HoHun, I have the entire report minus 1 page on elevator forces.
I would be very interested to see your .89 Mach 109G dive report.
Angus the report is not availabe on line.
Neil.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I sure do love the abundance of good science going on in this thread.
-- Todd/Leviathn
So provide some.
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Hi Neil,
>I would be very interested to see your .89 Mach 109G dive report.
Wait - I meant Mach 0.79! A modified Me 109G even went to Mach 0.80, but that's it for the Messerschmitt.
Sorry, the Spitfire's Mach 0.89 isn't just impressive but outright incredible :-)
(I actually believe it, but it took a while until I realized how much faster than the rest of the bunch Mach 0.89 actually is.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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It was a PR Spitfire wasn't it?
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After the niki chased down my jug in a dead dive, i disqualified myself from any intelligent dive conversation:(
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Originally posted by Angus
It was a PR Spitfire wasn't it?
Yes a Mk XI with the enlarged oil tank in the nose. This was one way to tell a MkIX from a Mk XI, if the cannons could not be seen.
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>>Same thing with the Jug, it could outdive about every other plane in the ETO, not the case in AH IMO.<<
Wilbus:
I agree 100% from first hand experience. Further, there are many inconsistencies in the a/c modeled in AH as compared to a/c characteristics in reality.
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>>Manoeuvrability: The FW 190 is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire IX except in turning circles.
The superior rate of roll of the FW 190 enabled it to avoid the Spitfire IX by turning over into a diving turn in the opposite direction.
The initial acceleration of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire IX under all conditions of flight, except in level flight at altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage. <<
LOL! And this is simply NOT the case in the MA at all.
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Quoting from Alfred Price's book "The Spitfire Story"
"Because the Spitfire had the highest limiting Mach number of any aircraft during the mid-war period, and airframes of the reconnaissance versions were cleaner then those of the fighters, a Mark XI was chosen for a series of high speed diving trials conducted at Farnborough in the Spring of 1944 to explore handling as aircraft dived at speeds close to the sound barrier.
During one of these dives, in EN409, on April 27, 1944, Squadron Leader Marty Martindale reached a true airspeed of 606 MPH and .89 Mach."
He started his dive at 40,400 feet and 340MPH before bunting over into a 45 degree dive.
I've always understood that the thinner wing of the Spit was a big contributer to this speed as well.
Dan/Slack
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Hi Wilbus,
>Same thing with the Jug, it could outdive about every other plane in the ETO, not the case in AH IMO.
First, let me point out that I don't fly Aces High :-)
With regard to diving, there are many factors involved, some beneficial for the P-47, others not.
The historical P-47 did neither have great initial acceleration from low speed nor a high limiting Mach number. Its strength lay in the medium speed region - optimally, the P-47 pilot would have to enter the dive steeply, accelerating quickly before pulling out smoothly to run away with his superior level speed. The usual stuff: Maximize your advantages etc.
Diving for too long would take the P-47 into compressibility, where most contemporary fighter aircraft were superior, even if they might be unable to catch up in the mid-phase of the dive.
If Aces High models it like that, I'd say it's pretty accurate :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Its all relative to the "E" states of the planes at hand when the encounter takes place.
I fly the Spit V alot and if a 190 has an equal E state to mine or even slightly lower that mine, they easily walk away from me in a dive or otherwise. If they are out of gun range, they have nothing to fear.
Any 190 that I have caught, in a dive or otherwise, and killed, has been caught with his "E" pants down around his ankles, while I have a pocket full of "E". Simple as that ... no one, or chart to blame, but themselves.
All these discussion of ... "how the hell did x plane catch my y plane". Well from my experience, in any encounter that I have, I can only guesstimate my opponents "E" state, and if I have guessed wrong ... then watermelon happens.
Everybody is so quick to run to the charts to explain their failure to guess the "E" state of their opponent.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Its all relative to the "E" states of the planes at hand when the encounter takes place.
Not at all. Go to DA with a second pilot, place both of you on the runaway of the NW field, heading N. Roll both planes at the same time and start the dive to the sea at the same time once the runaway ends. This way you can test relative diving between planes starting at same alt and more or less same speed (just after take off).
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Not at all. Go to DA with a second pilot, place both of you on the runaway of the NW field, heading N. Roll both planes at the same time and start the dive to the sea at the same time once the runaway ends. This way you can test relative diving between planes starting at same alt and more or less same speed (just after take off).
I presume that you have already done this ? If so, what were your findings ?
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P47D30/P51D/La7/190A8/190D9/SpitIX and Typh were tested. I found, surprisingly, P47 as only an average diver, P51/SpitIX/Typh were kings of the hill about getting out the dive with little or no trim at all (best of all being the typh by far). 190s needed a lot of trim nose up, D9 more than A series. La7 also needed lot of nose up trim (augering several times). About diving speed, it varied along the dive. SpitIX can stay with 190s at the initial stages, then 190s outdives (slowly) the SpitIX and then there was a "segment" where range kept stable. Once leveled and after some seconds of stalemate, D9 outrunned clearly and suddenly the SpitIX (as if the spit hit a brick wall). A8 and D9 had similar diving but A8 had better elevators to get out the dive, needed less nose up trim. All in all, the winner was the P51D. Curiously, we needed to change the orientation of the take off because P51D kept going uncontrolably to the left even before leaving the ground, crashing over'n over against the control tower or last fighter hangar.
Cant remember the fuel load of that test (probably 50%). It was done from the highest field (NW) of the DA.
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>>After the niki chased down my jug in a dead dive<<
Hehe, a Yak chased me down to the deck from 19k while I was in a Jug. He stayed rock solid on my 6 no matter what I did. I was over 400kias and he was still there. He shot me up good, and as I was falling he pulled up and away with ease; he didnt compress or anything. :(
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Well ...
"About diving speed, it varied along the dive. SpitIX can stay with 190s at the initial stages, then 190s outdives (slowly) the SpitIX and then there was a "segment" where range kept stable. Once leveled and after some seconds of stalemate, D9 outrunned clearly and suddenly the SpitIX (as if the spit hit a brick wall). A8 and D9 had similar diving but A8 had better elevators to get out the dive, needed less nose up trim."
Seems to line up with what JAWS2003 found from British tests ...
"Dive: Comparative dives between the two aircraft have shown that the FW 190 can leave the Spitfire (V) with ease, particularly during the initial stages."
"Dive: The FW 190 is faster than the Spitfire IX in a dive, particularly during the initial stage. This superiority is not as marked as with the Spitfire VB."
So whats the problem ?
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Don,
How on earth did you get killed by a Yak at 19K? You should have murdered him up there?
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>>Don,
How on earth did you get killed by a Yak at 19K? You should have murdered him up there?<<
F4U:
He had help :) There was a Niki, and of course an La7, and a P38 also. I started out with a lot of alt on them all, and began making passes at them as they climbed up toward me. Each of them, with the exception of the P-38 were able to climb up to me like scalded monkees. I made a pass on the Niki and smoked him, as I turned away the Yak started shooting at me. I pulled a couple of evasives, and the Yak stuck with me like glue, so I dove away. He stayed on my arse all the way down, missing a lot but, getting some hits in. He never deviated from within 350 yds off my 6. At one point I was over 450 kias and he was still there within 325 yds and registering hits. He shot my wing off, and as I fell I looked in my rear view and he simply pulled up and away without much effort, giving no evidence of compression or anything.
I fly the P-47 a lot; I read Gabreski's book about it. Its a good plane but, it sure as hell can't do the things Gabreski wrote about in his book, in AH. So, I fly it anyway cuz I like it.