Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on September 22, 2003, 09:25:00 AM
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I find the balancing act between bluntness and politeness very hard to achieve - or rather to get an effect out of.
Case in point: a dude at a dz near me got around 100 jumps - which is nothing. Unfortunately something happens to skydivers when they hit the double 0's. From 100 to 300 or 400 jumps seems to be the most dangerous time in the career of a skydiver. Complacency, overconfidence, a false sense of safety - many explanations for this very common phenomena (hence the term "100 jump wonder").
Anyway, 100+ jumps and he's downsizing to a pocket rocket semi-elliptical canopy with a wing load of 1:1.55. Good wingload for newbies and somewhat advanced skydivers is around 1:1 or 1:1.2 or so. Still lots of fun (I load mine at 1:1.18). Not only that, he's doing 180 degree hookturns. No canoy control course, big hook turns, small fast canopy with a high wingload.
Since the advent of the Automatic Activation Devices, few people die from a no-pull. This has done nothing for the overall statistics however, as more die under a fully functional canopy - usually due to low toggle- or hookturns.
I've tried about every approach on this guy - advice, friendly concern, bluntly stating the facts and also called him an idiot. None of 'em have had any effect whatsoever. He's an accident waiting to happen - often when he lands he has to correct so much with his steering toggles they're basically almost at full stretch - a well judged hook turn should require none or very little toggle input. I don't do 'em - my best friend almost died after hooking his Stiletto (or Spinetto as it nicknamed) straight into the ground at near full speed.
What to do? The guy is a fun character - I really like 'im. As a skydiver I also understand and respect that each and every one of us has a different tolerance or acceptance level of risk - his is just a lot higher than mine. But it's not a question of *if* he'll hit the ground - it's a question of when. The jumping season is beginning to come to an end and come next spring he'll not be as current as now and the risks will increase exponentially.
Maybe I'm being a sissy - OTOH skydiving is the only sport I know of where 'femur' is also a verb. And a hookturn can do a lot more than that - the forward and vertical speed is extreme on a small highly loaded canopy.
What to do? Student skydivers are looking at him and think 'wow cool, I wanna do that too, who'll teach me?'. All say 'come back in 500 jumps and we'll talk' to 'em, but still.
Peer pressure isn't working either. I will not give up so quickly however, as I think there *must* be some way of getting through. Any and all advice would be appreciated - I know some of you must have experienced similar episodes and therefore possess knowledge I haven't.
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People like that are nearly impossible to convince that they're doing something dangerous.
Sad to say, but ultimately, the ground will probably get your point across.
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well you could take an insurance policy out on him and then tell him your waiting to collect !
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There are many forms of "Walking Darwinisms" out there in the world. The best we can do is sit back and learn from their mistakes.
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Well, you could shoot him in the head now and save him the agony of smacking into the ground later. Or you can just live with the fact that you told him that he's being a handsomehunk, then hope he survives the event when it happens . . . and if he does, laugh at him.
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Originally posted by StSanta
, What to do? .
Don't stand beneath him.
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Lemme get this right, some loon who jumps out of perfectly good airplanes is trying to figure out how he can give safety advice without being ignored? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaha haaaaaaaaa :D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Lemme get this right, some loon who jumps out of perfectly good airplanes is trying to figure out how he can give safety advice without being ignored? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaha haaaaaaaaa :D
hehehe you have a valid point !
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Originally posted by StSanta
Since the advent of the Automatic Activation Devices, few people die from a no-pull. This has done nothing for the overall statistics however, as more die under a fully functional canopy - usually due to low toggle- or hookturns.
When I did my first (and only) jump, on a static line the instructors talked about the device you mention, however they claimed the name had to be changed from Automatic to Assisted, or something like that because the word Automatic implied that it was guarenteed to work...and that wasn't the case with the opening devices at that time.
Has this changed?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Lemme get this right, some loon who jumps out of perfectly good airplanes is trying to figure out how he can give safety advice without being ignored? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaha haaaaaaaaa :D
There are no 'perfectly good airplanes'. Jump ships are usually so heavily duct taped the weight of it alone increase the price of jump tickets by $5. And what else can you do but jump once the door is open? :).
Seriously, that's why I mentioned the bit about risk tolerance. His is higher than mine. While there are inherent risks in skydiving, efforts are made to minimize this. His actions however *increase* them, which is why I see them as stupid. Too much too soon - hook turns are dangerous even to the experienced.
GrimCo, Ripsnort, you express the sentiments of the rest of the skydivers around me. Maybe I am being pigheaded and naeive, but it'd be so bloody pointless to have him go splatt :(. If you gotta go, a double malfunction beats death by stupidity.
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Originally posted by Curval
When I did my first (and only) jump, on a static line the instructors talked about the device you mention, however they claimed the name had to be changed from Automatic to Assisted, or something like that because the word Automatic implied that it was guarenteed to work...and that wasn't the case with the opening devices at that time.
Has this changed?
Ah I think we're talking about two different things.
With the Static Line program, you got a static line that pulls out your chute as you exit the plane. An alternative to having a Static Line is to use IAD - Instructor Assisted Deployment, where the instructor releases the chute for you. Perhaps this is what he was referring to?
AADs are there when you've f@cked up, lost altitude awareness for some reason (doing relative work, malfunctioning audible or altimeter, free flying head down or whatever) or when you've panicked and done nothing. It's astounding to read about teh situations where people freeze up - even with experienced skydivers it's not unheard of of situations where they've pulled the cutaway but not the silver handle. It's the last line of defense and your last chance to extend your life expectancy beyond 5 seconds. There are two systems, one mechanical and one electronic. The FXC has a spring that automatically pulls the pin on the reserve if you go over a certain speed at a certain altitude. It's not as reliable as the electronic CYbernetic Parachute RElease System (CYPRES), which has a small pyrotechnic charge that fires a razor which cuts off the closing loop alltogether - no risk of a hard pull on the pin or a broken pin. Still even so, if you dump yer reserve into a pile of sh|t, you're outta luck.
Your instructor is totally correct when he says it might work. The CYPRES is very reliable but even so it's a device there to increase the odds of you getting a chute out - it cannot guarantee it. I cannot see how one can 'assist' it however - it fires when you've f@cked up, end of story. It 'assists' you in the sense of probably getting the reserve out, so in this sense he'd be right.
It's considered good practise to jump as if you didn't have an AAD, although the veterans of the sport think the 'CYPRES generation' is placing too much trust in these devices.
They're totally automatic and normally work when turned on. There are some risks (premature firing) but they're not very high with the CYPRES. The CYPRES has at least 200 documented saves. It's an expensive device to purchase and even more so to own but I find its presence reassuring (being of the CYPRES generation :))
How come you only did one Static Line jump? It gets *really* good once ya get some free fall. It gets even better when you do some 2-way jumps. It gets incredible when there's someone 2 meters from your face, in a sit-fly with a big grin on their face. or a cartwheel. Or.....
Get started again - we could do some fun jumps together :D
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I like the insurance idea, but I'm guessing this guy is a Gen-X'er and nothing scares him (Ah to be young and stupid again). Until he has a fear of dying, nobody will slow him down.
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Talk to the wife Santa...and my life insurance guy.;)
The device the guy was talking about re Auto opening devices was hooked up to the reserve chute.
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Do you think he's taking the extra risk to advance the state of the art or for attention?
If the former, you might suggest other manuevers that deserve to be more fully explored, preferably some more challenging but less risky.
If the latter, perhaps ignoring his activity would deprive him of the fuel to keep it going.
Main idea is to divert his energy to something more constructive and less dangerous without him realizing what you're doing.
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Santa, take a look at this message board. Why, the likes of Eagler, myself, Grun, are trying to show some of our left-of-center posters how stupid THEY are, yet it does no good! Just let nature take its course, and let them make their beds, they'll eventually have to sleep in them. :)
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Refuse to take him up-that should solve the problem, eh?
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If I was eagler would be insulted to have my name included in the same sentence with yours and grunherz. :D
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Santa, take a look at this message board. Why, the likes of Eagler, myself, Grun, are trying to show some of our left-of-center posters how stupid THEY are, yet it does no good! Just let nature take its course, and let them make their beds, they'll eventually have to sleep in them. :)
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Originally posted by k2cok
If I was eagler would be insulted to have my name included in the same sentence with yours and grunherz. :D
Hey, I'm mild compared to those guys, just call me "Grun-Lite" :D
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no matter how you put it Santa, the ground will find a better way to get his attention ;)
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Hm, I gather you chaps are right. I'll just hope he wises up then...
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Wash his chute with salt water. That'll teach him.
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I suggest you tell the man that the drop zone operator wants to make videos of his landings, so when he blows it, and he will of course, that it will be on film and can be used to train others about the dangers of low hook turns after he is gone (dead).
Then do it, have him filmed durning each landing, so you can do just that, use it to teach new and improving jumpers about the danger of low hook turns, high speed and overconfidence.
You can't save someone too overconfident to listen, but maybe you can save someone from makibg the same mistake later.
Of course, the best way to deal with the situation for the man while he is still alive is for the drop zone operator to just refuse to let him jump there.
dago
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StSanta,
Print out your opening post in this thread and give it to him.
Tell him you're doing this cause you care and rather not be there to help scrape his remains off the turf.
Perhaps he has a better explaination for his actions.
Anyone in your club that has waaay more jumps than the person you're talking about?
Perhaps they can talk some sence into the guy.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Santa, take a look at this message board. Why, the likes of Eagler, myself, Grun, are trying to show some of our left-of-center posters how stupid THEY are, yet it does no good! Just let nature take its course, and let them make their beds, they'll eventually have to sleep in them. :)
LOL.......:rolleyes: