Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: B17Skull12 on September 23, 2003, 05:54:28 PM
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who would win. waas aruging with akak last night. my guess is a spit14 flown in the right hand could guarntee a win over even a well flown p38. ive spent lots of time in TA with trainers working on it so i know what im doing. ive looked at htc charts. spit14 seems to be better in speed and climb. all alt. ill draw a chart of what i would do after im done with homework.
skulll12
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spit;)
if you not meet extreemly good p38 driver;-)
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The overall performance edge is most decisively with the Spit14, that's undeniable.
But the problem is, while the P-38 can go vertical at will, the suspicious FM at going vertical(in case HT may read this, I'm only talking about the discussions on the tail-slide or the hammerhead! :) ), makes it incredibly difficult for a high torque plane to attempt to follow the P-38.
What makes it worse, a pilot is very much more reluctant to push the Spit14 to it's limits due to the humongous torque factor. So usually the Spit14 pilot is somewhat more passive, compared to the guy in the P-38. Often, this may result in a tactical disadvantage for the Spit14, unless the pilot is really experienced with the plane and is willing to push to the edge of the envelope.
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Might as well post this-
Theres anecdotal evidence that the P38L could out-turn the Spit14.
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There's also anecdotal evidences that cyclops did exist and that woman was made from the man's rib.
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Myths are not 'anecdotal.' That's why they're called myths.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Might as well post this-
Theres anecdotal evidence that the P38L could out-turn the Spit14.
This is the kind of data that gets people in a huff about modeling while it in fact tells us nothing. Without knowing the energy states of the two aircraft we can't base anything off of this.
To put it another way, if the P-38L could out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV then it could out turn the Spitfire Mk IX and AH has them all horribly modeled. This comment of mine is based on the non-anecdotal evidence that there was little to choose between the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XIV in regards to turning.
I would be interested in how an aircraft with a wing loading of ~60lbs/sq.ft. out turns a fighter with ~40lbs/sq.ft.
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I've not had any probs mixing it up with p38's when i fly a spit14.
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Originally posted by Karnak
This comment of mine is based on the non-anecdotal evidence that there was little to choose between the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XIV in regards to turning.
It's interesting to note that the AFDU drew a very similar conclusion when comparing the Spitfire V and the Spitfire IX; I wonder if they ever flew a V against an XIV?
The AFDU evaluation of the P-38F is quite definite that the Spitfire V could outturn it. Similarly, a 1st FG pilot (P-38s, MTO) is quoted in Pacifica's "Aces in Combat" series as saying that the P-38 could outturn anything in the theatre except the Spitfire.
The P-38 might be able to get inside the Spitfire briefly using some of its tricks (gentle no-torque stall, flaps, asymmetric thrust) but it had better capitalise quickly or the Spitfire dominates the sustained turning fight.
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Hi Karnak,
>I would be interested in how an aircraft with a wing loading of ~60lbs/sq.ft. out turns a fighter with ~40lbs/sq.ft.
The 40 psf fighter could have a maximum lift coefficient of 1.2 and the 60 psf fighter one just above 1.8, for example.
I haven't checked if that's how Spitfire and P-38 compare, but if the P-38 drops its flaps, this example might not even be unrealistic.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The guy in the Spitfire14 clearly sucks if he's losing a 1on1 against a P-38L. One exception being pilots like Fester or Kappa in the Lightning, of course :)
The Spitfire can outrun, outdive, outclimb, outturn, outroll and outaccelerate the P38. It even looks better. :D
How can the 38 win?
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I'm about 3 to 2 in p38 vs spit14. The 109 drivers in spit14 are tough opponents, have no problems out-turning them with the 38 though. The 38's fowler flaps make up for its higher wing loading.
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Originally posted by flaps737
I'm about 3 to 2 in p38 vs spit14. The 109 drivers in spit14 are tough opponents, have no problems out-turning them with the 38 though. The 38's fowler flaps make up for its higher wing loading.
im a 109 driver
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Might as well post this-
Theres anecdotal evidence that the P38L could out-turn the Spit14.
There's the famous duel between Lowell in a P-38H versus some RAF pilot in a Spitfire Mk XV, in which Lowell won the mock fight and a case of beer. Beat the Spitfire Mk XV in a turning stall fight.
ack-ack
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I haven't really played AH much in the past couple of months but in tour 42 i had 15 kills for 0 deaths against the p38 in the spit XIV- and i aint no stinkin 109 pilot.:D i love spits.:) I've not had any p38's out turn me.
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Originally posted by Guppy
It's interesting to note that the AFDU drew a very similar conclusion when comparing the Spitfire V and the Spitfire IX; I wonder if they ever flew a V against an XIV?
The AFDU evaluation of the P-38F is quite definite that the Spitfire V could outturn it. Similarly, a 1st FG pilot (P-38s, MTO) is quoted in Pacifica's "Aces in Combat" series as saying that the P-38 could outturn anything in the theatre except the Spitfire.
The P-38 might be able to get inside the Spitfire briefly using some of its tricks (gentle no-torque stall, flaps, asymmetric thrust) but it had better capitalise quickly or the Spitfire dominates the sustained turning fight.
In a high speed turn fight, the P-38 out turns a Spitfire. It's when speeds are in the medium speed area, 250mph-150mph (IAS) that the Spitfire can easily out turn the P-38. At low to stall speeds, the P-38 regains the slight edge because of the gentle stall characteristics of the Lightning.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by leitwolf
How can the 38 win?
Easily...if the P-38 pilot is good that is.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
who would win. waas aruging with akak last night. my guess is a spit14 flown in the right hand could guarntee a win over even a well flown p38.
skulll12
There are no guarantees in life. Now maybe if someone like Drex or Leviathn was flying that Spitfire Mk XIV, then I'd give the edge to them but most anyone else...
If you really want to find out though, we can duel sometime. I'm getting low on my baby harp seal skins and could use a few more before winter sets in.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There are no guarantees in life. Now maybe if someone like Drex or Leviathn was flying that Spitfire Mk XIV, then I'd give the edge to them but most anyone else...
If you really want to find out though, we can duel sometime. I'm getting low on my baby harp seal skins and could use a few more before winter sets in.
ack-ack
ive never seen drex fly but tod? he would fly it like a spit5 the old turn and burn.
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There's the famous duel between Lowell in a P-38H versus some RAF pilot in a Spitfire Mk XV, in which Lowell won the mock fight and a case of beer. Beat the Spitfire Mk XV in a turning stall fight.
The one I am thinking of was definately a P-38L.
This is the kind of data that gets people in a huff about modeling while it in fact tells us nothing. Without knowing the energy states of the two aircraft we can't base anything off of this.
To put it another way, if the P-38L could out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV then it could out turn the Spitfire Mk IX and AH has them all horribly modeled. This comment of mine is based on the non-anecdotal evidence that there was little to choose between the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XIV in regards to turning.
I would be interested in how an aircraft with a wing loading of ~60lbs/sq.ft. out turns a fighter with ~40lbs/sq.ft.
Please calm down little boy. I didn't say scientists ran a detailed and highly monitored series of turning trials between the two aircraft. I said the evidence was anecdotal.
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you can fight all day about plane stats and who would theoretically win but in the end it all depends on the pilot...a machine is no good without a decent operator...
anyway spit 14 vs p38 is like comparing a GMAW welding machine with a SMAW welding machine...they both do essentially the same thing its just 1 is incredibly easy to use and be decent at but you have to be a better than decent person to use the other well...
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quote:
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To put it another way, if the P-38L could out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV then it could out turn the Spitfire Mk IX
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Spit14 out turns a spit9??:confused:
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In a high speed turn fight, the P-38 out turns a Spitfire.
I don't quite understand this "outturning in high speed" -thing. When both planes are above their instantaneous corner speeds (usually 200-300mph at sea level) their turning ability is equal, ie. limited by 6g blackout limit. All planes are thus equal in those speeds. It is only below the corner speed, when the differences start to show. According to Badboys' EM -diagrams, Spit IX is superior in all speeds below the corner speed. The difference is quite small near stall speeds, when P-38 uses full flaps,though. Unfortunately I don't have direct comparison here, both planes are compared with C.205.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/403562/P-38LfullflapsvMC205SL.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/403562/SpitIXvMC205SL.jpg)
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Tim, I'm no physicist and totally layman at looking at charts and stuff, but I feel that chart is very much theoretical, and does not count the other possible factors.
One of them being the ability to dump E faster than the other - I've seen expert P-47 pilots like Frenchy or Lephturn quite often mentioning that in some cases, the E should not be saved and must be boldy thrown away when it is needed to be.
I don't think that refers to any extended turn fights, but in cases where two planes might start an engagement in an equal one-circle fight at speeds near 400mph, the plane which dumps E faster will often gain the advantage.
For instance, when two Spit9s engage against each other same speed, meeting in a HO merge and both turning to one side, the better pilot will often chop throttle, engage rudders, and continuously tighten his radius until he gains an advantageous position over the other pilot who's trying to turn with his throttle fully open.
I believe what Ack is saying does not necessarily represent a technical truth about plane performance, but rather empirical and tactical advantage one pilot may have over a less-skilled/experienced one - mostly in cases such as dumping E at very high speed sustained turn fights as seen when two planes spiral downwards each after another's tail, or like when one plane at high speed, tries an instantaneous turn for lining up a shot.
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The engagement where a P38L was able to out-turn a spitfire went like this- A spitfire pilot was at an allied airbase in England bragging about his aircraft. He either challenged or was challenged by a P38L pilot.
Memory is a slight bit foggy on this part- They decide to either hold a mock dogfight or a turning trial over the airbase. They have a set altitude at which they are going to merge (may have been 5000 feet). So the P38 pilot climbs above 5k, and dives down to 5k when they merge. He then uses a maneuver that he keeps referring to as a 'clover-leaf' to get around on the Spitfires tail and stay there.
Before anyone starts acting wild, this is just anecdotal evidence. We don't know what kind of Spitfire it was, whether or not the Spit and P38 had the same airspeed on merge, or even what this unique 'clover-leaf' maneuver was.
But the only logical conclusion is that the Spitfire was in a sustained low speed turn while the P38 pilot somehow figured out how to get his airspeed high enough (for short bursts anyways) to out turn the spit.
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That's the famous duel between Lowell and a RAF recce pilot in a Spitfire Mk XV. Lowell was in a P-38H and the winner received a case of beer.
During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG. Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass. Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.
ack-ack
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I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.
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P38 would win
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
P38 would win
Prove it.
Also, I don't understand why people use phrases like, "In the right hands". Completely meaningless. If we are going to compare aircraft then we must assume, "All other things being equal,", other wise we aren't comparing the aircraft.
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I do not need to prove it, Its just my opinion. Nobody can really proove any of this cause charts and numbers are just one part of this. To many variables to consider to be able to draw any decisive conclusions.
Toughness, firepower and cockpit visability etc. are just a few of the things that has to be taken into account.
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All things being equal, the Spit XIV outturns the P38. I'm not saying this because I like either any better, as I fly them both. The XIV turns very well with throttle chopped. If it weren't perked so high, I'm certain you'd see more Spit XIV drivers learning their planes well enough to give the 38 aces fits.
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You can't discuss pilot ability or initial conditions in a comparison like this as those are usually the two most "favoring" factors. Honestly, initial conditions and pilot ability determine the outcome more than aircraft characteristics in most cases.
If you look at pure aircraft characteristics though the Spit XIV should win. I would give the firepower (aiming) and stall handling to the P-38 while the Spit XIV wins everywhere else even if you consider it as a slightly inferior turner to the Spit IX (which the charts posted shot). I mean, the P-38L we have with full flaps can manage 18 deg/sec at about 126mph (sustained) and a 600ft radius. The Spit IX can manage 23 deg/sec @ 145mph in 550ft. The Spit IX has a dominant acceleration advantage (ties an La7), a climb advantage of over 1,500ft/min, and a 14mph advantage in top speed a sea-level. The roll rate on the Spit is superior, momentum on the P-38 is difficult to counter, the views from the Spit are better to most angles than the P-38, the firepower of the Spit is about equal in terms of damaging capability, and the size of the Spit has to serve as an advantage over the P-38.
Those are just my thoughts though, the P-38 would have to win early as the advantage favors the Spit more and more as time goes by and the Spit can certainly match any maneuver the P-38 throws it's way. Even in a stall type vertical climb, the Spits climb rate and awesome low speed handling make it very dangerous.
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Originally posted by Soda
You can't discuss pilot ability or initial conditions in a comparison like this as those are usually the two most "favoring" factors. Honestly, initial conditions and pilot ability determine the outcome more than aircraft characteristics in most cases.
Don't tell that to Urchin. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Everyone is an ace when you fight on paper.
Drex
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All the Spits imho are probably the best balanced fighters in the game. I can't see how you could lose against a P38 unless the P38 stick was very good or he had alot of E and you never get chance to really merge.
I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.l
Plus I'd like to add that the P38's prop hanging abilities give it hacking qualities no other plane can match in a climb. ;)
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by davidpt40
But the only logical conclusion is that the Spitfire was in a sustained low speed turn while the P38 pilot somehow figured out how to get his airspeed high enough (for short bursts anyways) to out turn the spit.
Now hold on little boy... why is that the only logical conclusion?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.
Ok ok... so it was a SEAFIRE... so what?
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I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.
Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.
In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.
I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.
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Originally posted by Gixer
I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.l
Plus I'd like to add that the P38's prop hanging abilities give it hacking qualities no other plane can match in a climb. ;)
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
I always make the mistake of misidentifying the Spitfire V and the Spitfire Mk IX, thinking the Spitfire V is a Mk IX so I try to turn fight with it. Once I realize my mistake I have no other choice but to dive away and extend and then go into a shallow climb and get above the Spitfire V. I have no fear turn and stall fighting against the Mk IX or the Mk XIV but against the Spitfire V my only chance is to either get the Spit driver to get fast and then force a high speed turn fight or BnZ it. If only there is no other choice, that's the only time I'll turn with a Spitfire V and if it's a good pilot in that Spitfire, the turn fight doesn't last too long.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I always make the mistake of misidentifying the Spitfire V and the Spitfire Mk IX, thinking the Spitfire V is a Mk IX so I try to turn fight with it. Once I realize my mistake I have no other choice but to dive away and extend and then go into a shallow climb and get above the Spitfire V. I have no fear turn and stall fighting against the Mk IX or the Mk XIV but against the Spitfire V my only chance is to either get the Spit driver to get fast and then force a high speed turn fight or BnZ it. If only there is no other choice, that's the only time I'll turn with a Spitfire V and if it's a good pilot in that Spitfire, the turn fight doesn't last too long.
an easy way is to look at the tail. the spit5's tail will look brown at about 3k out while the spit9 is a greyish color.
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When you making a high speed pass doing 450mph, it's kind of hard to see the details of the other plane
ack-ack
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Originally posted by thrila
I haven't really played AH much in the past couple of months but in tour 42 i had 15 kills for 0 deaths against the p38 in the spit XIV- and i aint no stinkin 109 pilot.:D i love spits.:) I've not had any p38's out turn me.
Yeh, where have you been, thrila? Falc and the boys have been looking for you.
shubie
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.
Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.
In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.
I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.
Mostly, people over here call the "winter of 1944" the one that starts in late december 1943. It makes sense, since all but 9 days of that winter are in the year following the year in which it starts.
That takes away the p-38 argument, but adds to the spitfire mark argument.
shubie
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.
Not entirely true. It's more then likely a typo that should read Spitfire XIV, but it also could have been a Seafire XV which was the Navalized version of the Griffon engined Spit XII. It's entirely possible that a Spitfire Service Test Pilot may have been touring the airbases in this particular version and got into the war of words.
If it was some senior pilot, who'd been off Operations for a bit, it would explain Lowell's 'victory' even easier.
One of the things the Spit pilots had to adjust to with each new version was that it was not the same beast as it got heavier and more powerful. A Spit XIV just because of it's all up weight would not have turned like an IX, just as an IX would not have outturned a Spit V. To try and fly a Spit XIV like an IX or a V would be a mistake and not utilize it's best assets.
On top of Lowell being a great pilot and at the time currant operational pilot, you'd have someone out of the loop for a bit trying to fly an XIV like an IX or V. I've often wondered if the pilot who flew against Lowell had been an operational Spit XIV pilot if the outcome might have been different.
Pete Brothers, who had flown fighters with the RAF since the B of B and was a Spit Wing Commander at the time, talked about how with the XIV you could just stand on your tail and climb up to take on the German fighters. He commented that the German pilots had a hard time getting used to that.
Ginger Lacy, another long time Spit vet, was with 17 Squadron in the Pacific when they transitioned to the XIV from the VIII. While demonstrating some aerobatics over the airfield, he took the XIV into a loop and nearly mushed it into the ground, having not taken into account the greater weight. The XIV was definatly a different beast.
Now if it had been a Seafire XV, it would have been lighter, and a better turner with the single stage Griffon best suited for lower alt. But I'd bet it was an XIV at that point.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Gixer
I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.
Don't tell that to DMF :rofl
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According to his own account, Lowell says it was a P38L and it took place right before they got 51s so say June/early July 44. He say the Spit XV had a 5 bladed prop so he clearly meant an XIV and he says the RAF pilot's name was Wing Commander Donaldson. (I've not been able to find out who that is. There was a S/L E.M. Donaldson who flew in the B of B. That's my best guess, but it would also add to the theory that this wasn't a currant operational combat pilot as there were few if any B of B Squadron Leaders still flying combat in 44)
Dan/Slack
btw the Seafire XV was floating around prior to this time. My AH namesake, F/L Tom Slack of 41 Squadron RAF, test flew one that dropped in at thier field on April 28, 1944. This XV had been modified with a full blown bubble canopy and they wanted an operational pilot's opinion. As 41 had XIIs at the time it made sense they'd get asked. While I believe Lowell fought an XIV, it is/was possible that it was an XV
Originally posted by Nashwan
I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.
Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.
In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.
I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.
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Guppy35, what was the Supermarine Type number for this Spifire Mk XV?
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Hi Guppy,
>He say the Spit XV had a 5 bladed prop so he clearly meant an XIV and he says the RAF pilot's name was Wing Commander Donaldson. (I've not been able to find out who that is. There was a S/L E.M. Donaldson who flew in the B of B.
Good information! Since you mentioned them, could it have been a Spitfire XII, too?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I dug out the book with Lowell's own account and typed it up. Hope that adds to the confusion :) Clearly it's an XIV and clearly it took place in July 44 based on the 51s about to arrive.
Dan/Slack
John Lowell, Quoted in the book "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan
"Our group received several P38Ls just before the P51s arrived. This latest Lightning had dive flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose. On a day we were stood down, General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English Aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks loke US Fighters. Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany. Most of the US pilots didn’t know about the Spits long range, and some of the Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized their insignia was the Royal Air Force and not a German Swastika. ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to make combat.
All the 364th Fighter Group Pilots attended Donaldson’s slide picture presentation in our briefing room. When he finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base. It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower. Then he said, “If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”
The entire group started clapping and hollered “Big John! Big John!”
That was me, so I asked him, “What is your fuel load?”
He replied, “Half petrol.”
“What is your combat load?”
He said, “No ammo.”
We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.
The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash. But they were wrong!. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Guppy35, what was the Supermarine Type number for this Spifire Mk XV?
Seafire XV was Supermarine Type 377/386
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Guppy,
>Since you mentioned them, could it have been a Spitfire XII, too?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
The Mk XII was fitted with a 4 blade Rotol R13/4F5/5 Durol(6 a/c) and then the R13/4F5/6 Jablo. both 10'5" dia.
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Nice fight with an equal start altitude.:eek:
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A Seafire ;) which is not a Spitfire.
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Hi Guppy,
Thanks for the post! Sounds like a very credible description to me.
Lowell obviously had an energy advantage at the merge, which the Spitfire pilot failed to realize. (The Spitfire may have wasted additional energy by a turning overly hard or into Lowell's hemisphere.)
The "rope" (in gamers' terms) was followed by the inevitable vertical diving attack, which the Spitfire tried to evade by turning. I imagine the "clover-leaf" was a manoeuvre based on a lag-turn to provide a momentary firing solution ... "and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down."
The low-altitude split-S looks like a typical "last ditch" defense, and maybe Lowell shouldn't have tried to match it :-)
(His "new flaps" probably didn't help him much as they were meant for high mach-numbers - the old "combat flap" setting was more valuable low and slow.)
The story shows excellent tactics by Lowell - remember that energy maneuvering wasn't invented yet! - and very predictable tactics by an overconfident Spitfire pilot.
The story has an odd déja-vu element to it as the sequence is so familiar from fights in the online skies ;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Milo,
>The Mk XII was fitted with a 4 blade Rotol R13/4F5/5 Durol(6 a/c) and then the R13/4F5/6 Jablo. both 10'5" dia.
Ah, thanks! I wasn't aware the Spitfire XII had a 4-bladed propeller.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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What does this thread prove again??
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
What does this thread prove again??
Essentially it proves that more often then not it's the pilot not the plane, in particular when the planes are closely matched? :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I dug out the book with Lowell's own account and typed it up. Hope that adds to the confusion :) Clearly it's an XIV and clearly it took place in July 44 based on the 51s about to arrive.
Dan/Slack
John Lowell, Quoted in the book "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan
"Our group received several P38Ls just before the P51s arrived. This latest Lightning had dive flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose. On a day we were stood down, General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English Aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks loke US Fighters. Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany. Most of the US pilots didn’t know about the Spits long range, and some of the Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized their insignia was the Royal Air Force and not a German Swastika. ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to make combat.
All the 364th Fighter Group Pilots attended Donaldson’s slide picture presentation in our briefing room. When he finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base. It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower. Then he said, “If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”
The entire group started clapping and hollered “Big John! Big John!”
That was me, so I asked him, “What is your fuel load?”
He replied, “Half petrol.”
“What is your combat load?”
He said, “No ammo.”
We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.
The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash. But they were wrong!. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."
Great story! Thanks for posting his first hand account of the mock fight.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Guppy,
Thanks for the post! Sounds like a very credible description to me.
Lowell obviously had an energy advantage at the merge, which the Spitfire pilot failed to realize. (The Spitfire may have wasted additional energy by a turning overly hard or into Lowell's hemisphere.)
The "rope" (in gamers' terms) was followed by the inevitable vertical diving attack, which the Spitfire tried to evade by turning. I imagine the "clover-leaf" was a manoeuvre based on a lag-turn to provide a momentary firing solution ... "and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down."
The low-altitude split-S looks like a typical "last ditch" defense, and maybe Lowell shouldn't have tried to match it :-)
(His "new flaps" probably didn't help him much as they were meant for high mach-numbers - the old "combat flap" setting was more valuable low and slow.)
The story shows excellent tactics by Lowell - remember that energy maneuvering wasn't invented yet! - and very predictable tactics by an overconfident Spitfire pilot.
The story has an odd déja-vu element to it as the sequence is so familiar from fights in the online skies ;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
The 'Clover-Leaf' is a low/stall speed maneuver that takes advantage of the low speed handling and gentle stall characteristics of the P-38. And you're correct, at the altitude they were flying at, there would have been no need for Lowell to engage his dive flaps, even at 600mph. I can be pretty sure though that the combat and normal flaps sure got one hell of a work out though.
ack-ack
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I took off in a new P38L
I knew it was a P38L, everyone was screaming "P38H P38H".
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Hi Ack-Ack,
>And you're correct, at the altitude they were flying at, there would have been no need for Lowell to engage his dive flaps, even at 600mph.
Well, what I actually meant to say is that there would be no benefit from the dive flaps in that situation.
>I can be pretty sure though that the combat and normal flaps sure got one hell of a work out though.
As far as I know, "combat flaps" was just an intermediate setting for the "normal" flaps that gave an optimum compromise between lift and drag.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I do not know how much of an advantage the dive recovery flaps gave pilots in a turn, but there are several references in many books of pilots using the dive recovery flaps on the 38J/L to tighten up a turn.
the story about the 38L vs spit XV I have in a book called "top guns" isbn 0671683179
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The P-38 used fowler flaps. The combat setting was simply extending the flaps and dropping them 8 degs IIRC. That effectively increased the wing area as well as the lift coefficient. Gave a useful increase in lift with less drag than a plain or split flap would give for the same increase in lift.
The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.
Greg Shaw
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Guppy, thanks for the post. It's nice to get the full story, with all the details.
Mind you, I have a hard time believing a WW2 RAF Wing Commander would say " I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!" (not in quite those terms, anyway ;) )
The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.
I thought the dive flaps gave a strong pitch-up, ie they could be used to increase instantaneous turn rate?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Guppy, thanks for the post. It's nice to get the full story, with all the details.
Mind you, I have a hard time believing a WW2 RAF Wing Commander would say " I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!" (not in quite those terms, anyway ;) )
I got to be good friends with a former RAF pilot back in the 80's early 90s when I was researching the Spit XII. He'd flown in the B of B with 266 and then 72 Squadrons before doing a tour as a Supermarine Service Test pilot. In 44 he joined 616 flying Spit VIIs before they converted to Meteors.
One day while flying a Meteor to a USAAF airfield to introduce the pilots to it, he was jumped by a P47. He was low on fuel and couldn't 'play' so he cruised in and landed. That evening he got to listen to the Jug pilot talking about how he'd whipped the RAF Meteor pilot in mock combat.
He quietly, with a smile asked the Jug driver if he'd like to go up and take him on the next day when he had plenty of fuel. The Jug driver declined :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail.
and here in AH he'd be on his way to lawndart-hood, or at the very least be too far into control stiffness/shudder to do more than bore a strightline til be bled another 180mph.
you listening HT? fix the dayum compression problems, especially down in "thicker" lower alt air!
now!! hop to it!! screw ah2, it can wait!!!
:D
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Originally posted by HoHun
Well, what I actually meant to say is that there would be no benefit from the dive flaps in that situation.
I agree. I think the altitude they were at and the particular situation didn't require their use. He could have though used them to aid in turning at high speed.
As far as I know, "combat flaps" was just an intermediate setting for the "normal" flaps that gave an optimum compromise between lift and drag.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I don't know it about being an intermediate setting. I do know that the first setting of the P-38 flaps is the Fowler Flaps (also known as Combat and Maneuver Flaps). When the flap lever was moved beyond Maneuvering, the flaps became a conventional hinged flap, which is why they are referred to as 'normal flaps'. Basically the P-38's flaps were a hybrid design between conventional hinged flaps and a Fowler Flap.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38fowler.gif)
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by gwshaw
The P-38 used fowler flaps. The combat setting was simply extending the flaps and dropping them 8 degs IIRC. That effectively increased the wing area as well as the lift coefficient. Gave a useful increase in lift with less drag than a plain or split flap would give for the same increase in lift.
The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.
Greg Shaw
The dive flaps when deployed would pitch the nose up, IIRC anywhere from 3-6 degrees. P-38 pilots did use this to aid them in high speed turns but they couldn't be deployed for extended periods while doing so because of the nose up pitch it bled speed away quickly.
ack-ack
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Ak-Ak
'Cloverleaf' is a manouver that takes advantage of the 38's instantaneous turn rate and the plane's excellent acceleration.
Simply put, plane at 400mph, pull tight 45 degrees turn high g's, 38 now at 350mph, let go of stick, 1g, plane accels to 400, repeat.
If you had smoke trailing you, it would draw the shape of a cloverleaf in the sky.
Galland almost died to a 38 pulling this on his dorka 190d9.
It basically allows you keep turning inside or with a plane that has a better SUSTAINED turn rate than the 38.
In the case of that mock dogfight, the spit I think tried a sustained hard turn (not sure what 'lufbery' means) which the 38 jock countered by pulling the cloverleaf, thus staying in the spit's tail and inside or with his turning circle long enough to bring his guns to bear for a shot.
38 cannot do this forever though, i'd say just 1 or 3 turns with the spit..after that the spit wouldve started to turn tighter.. but then again, all you need is 1 or 3 chances to shoot his arse off :D
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Here's a couple of descriptions of the maneuver.
Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.
The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver. The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....
Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver.
Too bad I've been unable to find any diagrams that show the maneuver. The only cloverleaf maneuver diagrams I've found have been the ones that aerobatic pilots use at air shows and isn't the one that Lowell did.
And speaking of Lowell, he was that P-38 pilot that almost shot down Galland. Would have too if he wasn't so low on gas that risking engagement might turn his sortie into a one way ticket flight.
A Lufbery is basically a circle flat turn.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And speaking of Lowell, he was that P-38 pilot that almost shot down Galland. Would have too if he wasn't so low on gas that risking engagement might turn his sortie into a one way ticket flight.
A Lufbery is basically a circle flat turn.
ack-ack [/B]
Don't do it Ack-Ack! HoHun and I went round and round on this one on the old AW boards as to whether the Galland-Lowell meeting actually happened. Seems like the argument had to do with whether the D9 was operational at that point or not.
Seems like we agreed to disagree that time :)
Dan/Slack
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Whos to say Galland was flying an operational D9? Could have been a prototype.
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Hi Guppy!
>HoHun and I went round and round on this one on the old AW boards as to whether the Galland-Lowell meeting actually happened.
In fact, I was positively surprised that Lowell's P-38 vs. Spitfire description sounds so convincing! :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi David,
>Whos to say Galland was flying an operational D9? Could have been a prototype.
There's a complete list of the prototypes and their history. I couldn't find any suitable prototype that might have been used by Galland - and Lowell mentions an entire flight of "long-nose" Fw 190s anyway, which is entirely impossible at the time.
Lowell's account is contradictory in a number of points - for example, the position he quotes doesn't match the landscape he describes - and Guppy and I have been unable to figure everything out. We'd probably need some additional sources for that.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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My grandfather, 1st Lt. David Williams, was part of the 384th FS/364th FG. Flew 88 missions with them:
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/364.html
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/dww51.jpg
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/dww38.jpg
He's told me about the duel. He also mentioned that one of the reasons Lowell was so good was that he'd been part of the AAC's test program when they developed the -38. In fact Lowell had been a test pilot at Wright Field.
The 364th flew its firt mission on 2 Mar 44. My grandfather arrived with the Group in April. The 364th started the change from -38's (J's) to P-51's in July of 1944. According the Group's history, the first full flight with P-51D's was 27 Jul 44.
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“If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”
LOL that statement is BS.... Rest of it may be true but no way a 1940's brit would speak like that! Especially a Wing Commander!
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Interesting thread.
Basically I would put my money on the Spit.
Now that Spit XII driver got lured by a high-E P38, - co-E, the Spitfire would have won.
Co-alt, Co E, Furball would whop Ack-Ack's arse, hehe
(Spit IX vs P38)
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Hi Furball,
>Rest of it may be true but no way a 1940's brit would speak like that! Especially a Wing Commander!
I thought the same :-) But he might have made an ironic remark implying the same challenge, and Lowell just "translated" it into American.
I'd also assume that Lowell changed the name of the wing commander - that seems to have been very common for books published early after the war and wouldn't really hurt the credibility of this story.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Dune,
>My grandfather, 1st Lt. David Williams, was part of the 384th FS/364th FG.
Thanks for the info and the links!
>He's told me about the duel.
Did he mention whether it happened while he was serving with the squadron? We have been unable to put a date on Lowell's Fw 190 encounter so far.
>My grandfather arrived with the Group in April. The 364th started the change from -38's (J's) to P-51's in July of 1944. According the Group's history, the first full flight with P-51D's was 27 Jul 44.
Good info! :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hohun, the duel I was talking about was the one w/ the Spitfire pilot.
However, in the Group history, Lowell mentions the fight w/ Galland:
"I had many 'violent missions' including my P-38 fight against a long nose FW-109 (I'm assuming this is a typo, regretably there are several in the book) just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (Which would make it early summer 1944). In 1987 at our American Fighter Aces' convention, I met a top German ace, General Adolf Galland, who remembered that flight. I got many strikes on him but he got none on me. It was NE of Hannover, Germany where he led me into a 500' deep large tar pit. I got low on fuel and had to leave. He waggled his wings at me and went the other way. Thirty-two US aces heard him say, 'You SOB, you damn near keel me dat day.'."
BTW, if you have any other questions about the 364th, let me know.
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dam after the 4th or 5th post..
NERDs
NERDs
Nerds NERDS!!!!!!!!
lmfao..
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Hi Dune,
>Hohun, the duel I was talking about was the one w/ the Spitfire pilot.
Ah, thanks, I had misunderstood the reference! :-)
>However, in the Group history, Lowell mentions the fight w/ Galland:
Yes, that's exactly the one Guppy and I had been analyzing!
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)