Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lord dolf vader on September 24, 2003, 07:18:04 PM
-
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7368531%255E401,00.html
wow public dissent and refusal of orders from a large group of pilots in the israeli airforce.
never thought id live to see that, these guys are heros over there.
-
Maybe there is hope for the whole mess.
Then again, now we just need suicide bombers to refuse to target innocent civilians... not likely.
-
I like the sentiment - sometimes I wish WW1 could have ended with the guys in the trenches on both sides just saying fck it this is pointless and all going home en masse - however I have some doubt that hamas lunatics will respond in kind to this approach. Remember they are dedicated to destrying Israel no matter what. So in the balance it's an admirable idea but unfortunately a futile one. The killing will go on.... :(
-
Now if some suicide bombers would refuse to blow up civilians there would be hope. What would happen to a suicide bomber who declared that it is immoral to target children?
ra
Tarmac already made this point
-
I admire their choice. Pretty ballsy on their part.
Their attacks were more devastating than suicide bombers - and they did survive to do it again and again.
Fighter pilots are revered in Israel just like suicide bombers are by the Palestinians.
If the politicians refuse to end the bloodshed, maybe the people will.
-
Originally posted by ra
Now if some suicide bombers would refuse to blow up civilians there would be hope. What would happen to a suicide bomber who declared that it is immoral to target children?
ra
Tarmac already made this point
He (or she) would likely get very dead very soon. They would then be "packaged" with explosives and detonated and claimed as another glorious martyr. A dead martyr becomes very usefull for their political aims.
It would be nice if hamas and all the other terrorist organizations suddenly declared peace and walked off of the job. It won't happen but it would e nice.
-
What if this is a ploy by the Isralies, the political approach wont work so they order pilots to refuse air strikes to make it look like the jewish people want peace not just the leaders. Either way it is a noble idea, but a futal one. Like I said before terrorist only understand one thing and that is war, they wil continue to kill innocent men women and children, Isreil will strike back.
-
I take it at face value. It is no stretch for me to believe that Israili pilots are sick at the targets knowing civilians will probably die.
Just think about it.
No judgements here.
I just wonder, how else do you fight a war like this?
-
This is the first positive thing to come out of the Middle East in a long, long time. Let's hope the Palestinian's make a similar move.
-
Originally posted by rpm371
Let's hope the Palestinian's make a similar move.
Thats all it would ever take..
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
I take it at face value. It is no stretch for me to believe that Israili pilots are sick at the targets knowing civilians will probably die.
Just think about it.
No judgements here.
I just wonder, how else do you fight a war like this?
I didn't mean it as a slam against the pilots, what I meant is what if the Israeli leaders thought of it first because they were sick of hitting targets in civilian areas and wanted a noble way out. I guess it is kind of pointless either way.
The only other way you fight a war like this is to completely defeat your enemy, no survivors.
-
Originally posted by Animal
I admire their choice. Pretty ballsy on their part.
Their attacks were more devastating than suicide bombers - and they did survive to do it again and again.
Fighter pilots are revered in Israel just like suicide bombers are by the Palestinians.
If the politicians refuse to end the bloodshed, maybe the people will.
You seem to think that there is an equivalence. The suicide bombers do not hide the fact that they don't want peace with Israel ever. If they had the firepower Israel has they would not hesitate one minute to use it, and any civilian casualities would be entirely deliberate. Pretending that this conflict exists only because neither side has the political will to find a peaceful solution is fantasy.
ra
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I like the sentiment - sometimes I wish WW1 could have ended with the guys in the trenches on both sides just saying fck it this is pointless and all going home en masse - however I have some doubt that hamas lunatics will respond in kind to this approach. Remember they are dedicated to destrying Israel no matter what. So in the balance it's an admirable idea but unfortunately a futile one. The killing will go on.... :(
some tried , but they did not make home :(
-
Terrorist groups like Hammas and Hizbollah have one objective; to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Other groups, like Al Quaida, it's been alleged, will not be satisfied until the ENTIRE WORLD converts to Islam, and those who do not are destroyed.
You cannot reason with terrorists because they are Fanatics with unattainable goals.
I would tend to think, also that anyone who volunteers to be "Martyrs" is not going to start suddenly thinking rationally, and caring about innocents. To these people, unless you are a muslim, you are an enemy.
Of course, this is not the case with mainstream Islam. Like any religion, Islam has it's share of extremists.
-
Interesting read
Now if Arafat would go away...he's the single biggest obstacle to peace down there.
-
Well
I guess for every pilot that refuses to bomb, theres 2 others itching to take thier place...
-
bomber blows up bus - kills +20 woman & children
pilot bombs car - kills less than 6 targeting a terrorist leader
how then is this true:
"Their attacks were more devastating than suicide bombers"
-
Originally posted by Maniac
Well
I guess for every pilot that refuses to bomb, theres 2 others itching to take thier place...
And 10 Palestinians strapping on a dynamite suit....
-
****ing religion.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I like the sentiment - sometimes I wish WW1 could have ended with the guys in the trenches on both sides just saying fck it this is pointless and all going home en masse..
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2T0YYBWMPE&isbn=0452283671&itm=4
Check out Silent Night. Good book.
-
Anyone seen anything on this at a different news site? I find the whole thing difficult to believe for several reasons.
MiniD
-
It's certainly true, it's the top story in both the mainstream online Israeli newspapers:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/343998.html
http://www.jpost.com/
The Jerusalem Post article requires free registration.
From the Jpost article:
"IAF officials Thursday suspended at least nine active pilots who signed a letter refusing to carry out targeted assassinations and other operations in the Palestinian territories.
The other signatories are reservists, and their fate has yet to be determined.
The letter, addressed to Air Force commander Maj.-Gen. Dan Halutz, said in part: "We new and old soldiers refuse these illegal and immoral orders that have been carried out by the State of Israel. We, who were brought up to love Israel and to contribute to the Zionist ideal, cannot take part in operations in the center of populated civilian areas, and refuse to endanger innocent Palestinian civilians."
The pilots also wrote that they would refuse to transport IDF troops on missions into and out of occupied Palestinian territories, nor would they provide air support for combat troops in those areas. "
Now if some suicide bombers would refuse to blow up civilians there would be hope. What would happen to a suicide bomber who declared that it is immoral to target children?
Suicide bomber is largely a volunteer "occupation". There are plenty of people in Palestinian society who declare suicide attacks immoral. As far as Palestinians are concerned, there are 3 "levels" of attacks.
Attacks on the Israeli military, mainly inside the occupied territories, which almost all Palestinians support. Attacks on Israeli settlers inside occupied territory, which have a lot of support, and attacks on Israeli civilians inside the Green Line, which have less support.
It's hard to gauge exactly how much support they have. Currently about 60% of Palestinians say they support suicide bombings inside Israel, but the actual figure is probably lower.
Let's hope the Palestinian's make a similar move.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats all it would ever take..
Sadly, no.
The war has underlying causes. No country is stupid enough to let tit for tat violence continue this long, unless there is an underlying reason.
On the Israeli side, the current government values the settlements more than they value peace, and the Palestinian leadership is not prepared to confront Hamas, certainly until they feel they need to.
If the killing stops, it's only going to be temporary, unless the real issues are sorted out.
Pretending that this conflict exists only because neither side has the political will to find a peaceful solution is fantasy.
The conflict exists because the Palestinians and Israelis both want the same land. It really is as simple as that.
The natural compromise, which is supported by most countries around the world, is for an Israeli state inside the 1967 borders, and a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza strip.
That can't happen without removing at least 50,000 Jewish settlers, and that's something no Israeli government has even contemplated since widespread settlement began.
Wether the Palestinian leadership would settle for that is open to question. I personally think they would, but it's impossible to say, as it's not really an option at the moment.
-
If it's true then... I have little respect for the actions of those pilots.
I would have respected their refusal to follow the orders based on moral beliefs, but cannot condone the letter to a newspaper method they decided to use instead. I would be very suprised if they did not see jail time as a result of what happened.
MiniD
-
Originally posted by Eagler
pilot bombs car - kills less than 6 targeting a terrorist leader
LOL!!!
Man, you ARE a media drone.
-
****ing traitors
-
it boggles the mind how unqualified you are on so many levels to judge these men.
-
-
Carry on. :cool:
-
Originally posted by Animal
LOL!!!
Man, you ARE a media drone.
yeah ur right again, an Israeli pilot is no better than a Pal bomber
silly me ...
-
Originally posted by medicboy
I didn't mean it as a slam against the pilots, what I meant is what if the Israeli leaders thought of it first because they were sick of hitting targets in civilian areas and wanted a noble way out. I guess it is kind of pointless either way.
The only other way you fight a war like this is to completely defeat your enemy, no survivors.
The only way to win a war like this is stop fighting and start talking or go on killing each other for 50 years.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
yeah ur right again, an Israeli pilot is no better than a Pal bomber
silly me ...
Look like some Isreali pilot think that.
-
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/latesoft/arafat.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Eagler
yeah ur right again, an Israeli pilot is no better than a Pal bomber
silly me ...
And when did I say that? please quote me. I challenge you.
A rocket barrage aimed at the village where a suicide bomber came from is not exactly a precision weapon.
At least some Israeli pilots can see this and refuse to continue this butchering. Sadly, the fools on the other side are driven by religious fanatism and I doubt they will put a stop to their killing.
Just like the people in the Israeli government. Now they are no better than a Pal bomber. Just the same, except they do the killing from the comfort of their lavish air conditioned offices.
Both sides are rotten, only difference is that we are allied to one, therefore they are not 'evil'.
Originally posted by Hortlund
****ing traitors
Treason and desertion are hardly the same thing. And I would not even consider them deserters, since they are still willing to fight for their country. They just dont see any sense in butchering a bunch of innocent people, like you do.
We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp
550 signatures and counting.
-
maybe these pilots can get together with the hamas ppl (who refuse any peace) hold hands and speak badly about their govs
these pilots need to be throw in the brig asap (and I think they will be) - you don't sign up for the military to follow orders only when you feel good about them
-
What if those orders involve purposely killing innocents, would you do it?
Its that kind of thinking that had a huge army under Hitlers total control.
Dissent is NOT treason.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
maybe these pilots can get together with the hamas ppl (who refuse any peace) hold hands and speak badly about their govs
these pilots need to be throw in the brig asap (and I think they will be) - you don't sign up for the military to follow orders only when you feel good about them
I seem to remember a American pilot who disobeyed direct orders which in turn caused the death of four Canadian infantry and seriously wounded twenty others, is he in the brig?
-
God blessed my socks. Only 20 bucks get them while they are holy!
-
About 500 Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the past three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence, claiming that Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is illegal.
Sending reserve troops to prison. Israelis can't do anything right.
-
Originally posted by Animal
What if those orders involve purposely killing innocents, would you do it?
Its that kind of thinking that had a huge army under Hitlers total control.
Dissent is NOT treason.
Dissent in the army = treason. Period. And stop clowning around trying to compare this situation with "Hitlers total control", there is a world of difference, and it only leaves a bad taste in the mouth if you try to compare the two.
Anyway, in the military you dont go around deciding what orders to follow and what orders to refuse out of some fuzzy feeling in your stomach. Those pilots need to be taken out of the air force and sent to prison for a long time.
-
So if you were in the army and they ordered you to kill villagers would do it?
The rules of wars forbid killing civilians on purpose.
Following those rules would make them war criminals.
These pilots dont want to be war criminal it would seem.
I wonder why? :rolleyes:
-
thank goodness the B17 & Lanc crews didn't feel the same way over Berlin eh?
or the B29 over Japan hmm?
-
Originally posted by AVRO1
So if you were in the army and they ordered you to kill villagers would do it?
The rules of wars forbid killing civilians on purpose.
Following those rules would make them war criminals.
These pilots dont want to be war criminal it would seem.
I wonder why? :rolleyes:
It doesnt quite work that way. People should stop posting on subjects they have no understanding of.
-
thank goodness the B17 & Lanc crews didn't feel the same way over Berlin eh?
or the B29 over Japan hmm?
I get the impression it's not really the methods the pilots are objecting to, but rather the motives.
Some of these men are reservists and retired pilots who served with distinction in the 1967 and 73 wars, took part in the strike on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, etc. One of them, Brigadier Spector, shot down a Libyan passenger plane that had strayed over the Sinai by mistake, and took part in the attack on the USS Liberty.
In other words, they've served Israel well in the past, and taken part in questionable acts before, without complaint.
I think they recognise that the current Israeli campaign in the occupied territories is not only futile, but wrong as well.
-
Brave move from those pilots, I really respect what they have done.
Prooves that you can think even if you serve in the armed forces.
Im sure glad nobody that was under my command when i served sees this board
:lol
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Hortlund, you know as well as I do that there is such a thing as an illegal order. If you as a soldier were given orders to do something you find contrary to military law and/or the Geneva Conventions it is your duty to refuse those orders. I'm sure that's how these pilots will (try) to justify their disobedience. I guess the courts will decide.
Of cource that is how they will try to justify their treason. That dog wont hunt though, since they are being ordered to drop their bombs on terrorist leaders, not on civilians. Collateral damage is a completely different thing, but the risk of collateral damage does *not* justify that kind of refusal to obey orders. Never has, never will...its considered a part of war.
-
I will never tell you that Gscholz but I did make a blunder one time. Didn't get into any real trouble cause my XO was to busy laughing to yell at me :D
All i can tell you is that it involved ordering a course to a place where there was not alot of water..
Actually it was more like a paved parkingspace than a safe waterway. F***** gps crap. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Tarmac
Maybe there is hope for the whole mess.
Then again, now we just need suicide bombers to refuse to target innocent civilians... not likely.
September 25, 2003
Yassin said negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority were irrelevant to Hamas, which rejects Israel's existence entirely.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mideast25sep25002431,1,3435539.story?coll=la-headlines-world
-
Originally posted by fffreeze220
****ing religion.
CC :(
-
:D
Nah the helmsman questioned my orders when he started to run out of water.
To my defence, It was the first time I had command of the ops room when i was a cadet at BSMA and it was on KNM Horten, not on MTB.