Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ghi on September 25, 2003, 12:01:25 PM
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I have just found a List of the Flight Aces of WW2, and im wondering why most of the Allies have so few kills compared to the Axis??!!!
List: ( TOP FIVE OF EVERY COUNTRY )
AXIS: GERMANY:
352 - Erich Hartmann
301 - Gerhard Barkhorn
274 - Günther Rall
267 - Otto Kittel
258 - Walter Nowotny (2 ME-262)
+more than 100 pilots with more than 100 kills
ITALY
26 - Andriano Visconti
22 - Teresio Martinoli
21 - Leonardo Ferulli
21 - Franco Lucchini
19 - Franco Bordoni Bisleri
JAPAN:
113 - Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
80 - Tetsuzo Iwamoto
70 - Shoichi Sugita
64 - Saburo Sakai
60 - Junichi Sasai
FINLAND
94 - Juutilainen, Eino Ilmari
75 - Wind, Hans Henrik
56 - Luukkanen, Eino Antero
44 - Lehtovaara, Urho Sakari
44 - Tuominen, Oiva Emil Kalervo
KROATIA:
40 - Mato Dubovak
38 - Cvitan Galic
18 - Mato Culinovic
18 - Ivan Jergovic
16 - Ljudevit Bencetic
BULGARIA:
14 - Stoyan Stoyanov
8 - Toplodowski
HUNGARY:
34 - Dezso Szentgyorgyi
26 - Gyorgy Debrody
26 - Lajos Tóth
25 - Laszlo Molnar
19 - Miklos Kenyeres
ROMANIA:
60 - Constantine Cantacuzine
53 - Alexandre Serbanescu
40 - Florian Budu
24 - Mucenica
20 - T. Greceanu
SLOWAKIA:
32 - Jan Reznak
28 - Izidor Kovarik
23 - Jan Gerthoffer
17 - Rudolf Bozk
16 - Frantisek Cyprich
NOW THE ALLIES:
USA:
40 - Richard I. Bong
38 - Thomas B. McGuire Jr.
34 - David McCampbell
28 - Francis S. Gabreski ( 6 Korea)
28 - Robert S. Johnson
27 - Charles H. MacDonald
GREAT BRITAIN:
37 - James E. Johnson
32 - Brendon E. Finucane (Irish)
29 - Robert Braham
29 - Robert Stanford Tuck
28 - F. R. Carey
SOWJET UNION:
62 - Ivan N. Kozuhedub
59 - Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin
58 - Grigori A. Rechkalov
57 - Nikolai Gulayev
52 - Arsenii V. Vorozheikin
FRANCE:
26 - Pierre H. Closterman
23 - Marcel Albert
21 - Jean Demozay
20 - Edmond Marin la Meslee
20 - Pierre LeGoan
POLAND:
22 - Stanislaw Skalski
18 - Witold Urbanowicz
16 - Eugeniusz Horbaczewski (+ 4 V1)
14 - Boleslaw "Mike" Gladych
12 - Jan Eugeniusz Zumbach
AUSTRALIA:
28 - Clive Caldwell
23 - C. C. Scherf
17 - Keith Truscott
15 - John Waddy
15 - Patrick C. Hughes
NEWZEALAND:
27 - Colin Falkland Gray
22 - Alan Christopher Deere
21 - William Vernon Crawford-Compton
21 - Raymond Brown Hessylyn
21 - Evan Dall Macjie
KANADA:
31 - George F. Beurling
21 - Vernon C. Woodward
21 - H. W. McLeod
17 - Robert W. McNair
17 - George Wittman
SOUTH AFRIKA:
35 - Adolf Gysbert Malan
34 - Marmaduke Pattle
23 - C. LeRoux
22 - P. H. Hugo
18 - A. G. Lewis
BELGIUM:
13 - Rodolphe de Hemicourt de Grunne
8 - Yvan Monceau de Bergendael
7 - Jean H. M. Offenberg
7 - Victor M. M. Ortmans
6 - Charles F. J. Detal
NORWAY:
15 - Sevin Heglund
11 - Werner Christie
10 - Helner G. E. Grundt-Spang
9 - Martin Y. Gran
9 - Marius Eriksen
Tschechien:
20 - Karel Miroslav Kuttelwascher
17 - Josef Frantisek
15 - Alois Vasatko
12 - Frantisek Perina
11 - Otto Smik
Now i wonder, how is this huge difference between the Axis and the Allies to explain ?
Don't u think the german planes need a tune up in this game??!! ( FW190s, Ta152)
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most allied pilots rotated home after 25 30 missions i think, the axis had to stay n fight the whole war.
Originally posted by ghi
I have just found a List of the Flight Aces of WW2, and im wondering why most of the Allies have so few kills compared to the Axis??!!!
List: ( TOP FIVE OF EVERY COUNTRY )
AXIS: GERMANY:
352 - Erich Hartmann
301 - Gerhard Barkhorn
274 - Günther Rall
267 - Otto Kittel
258 - Walter Nowotny (2 ME-262)
+more than 100 pilots with more than 100 kills
ITALY
26 - Andriano Visconti
22 - Teresio Martinoli
21 - Leonardo Ferulli
21 - Franco Lucchini
19 - Franco Bordoni Bisleri
JAPAN:
113 - Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
80 - Tetsuzo Iwamoto
70 - Shoichi Sugita
64 - Saburo Sakai
60 - Junichi Sasai
FINLAND
94 - Juutilainen, Eino Ilmari
75 - Wind, Hans Henrik
56 - Luukkanen, Eino Antero
44 - Lehtovaara, Urho Sakari
44 - Tuominen, Oiva Emil Kalervo
KROATIA:
40 - Mato Dubovak
38 - Cvitan Galic
18 - Mato Culinovic
18 - Ivan Jergovic
16 - Ljudevit Bencetic
BULGARIA:
14 - Stoyan Stoyanov
8 - Toplodowski
HUNGARY:
34 - Dezso Szentgyorgyi
26 - Gyorgy Debrody
26 - Lajos Tóth
25 - Laszlo Molnar
19 - Miklos Kenyeres
ROMANIA:
60 - Constantine Cantacuzine
53 - Alexandre Serbanescu
40 - Florian Budu
24 - Mucenica
20 - T. Greceanu
SLOWAKIA:
32 - Jan Reznak
28 - Izidor Kovarik
23 - Jan Gerthoffer
17 - Rudolf Bozk
16 - Frantisek Cyprich
NOW THE ALLIES:
USA:
40 - Richard I. Bong
38 - Thomas B. McGuire Jr.
34 - David McCampbell
28 - Francis S. Gabreski ( 6 Korea)
28 - Robert S. Johnson
27 - Charles H. MacDonald
GREAT BRITAIN:
37 - James E. Johnson
32 - Brendon E. Finucane (Irish)
29 - Robert Braham
29 - Robert Stanford Tuck
28 - F. R. Carey
SOWJET UNION:
62 - Ivan N. Kozuhedub
59 - Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin
58 - Grigori A. Rechkalov
57 - Nikolai Gulayev
52 - Arsenii V. Vorozheikin
FRANCE:
26 - Pierre H. Closterman
23 - Marcel Albert
21 - Jean Demozay
20 - Edmond Marin la Meslee
20 - Pierre LeGoan
POLAND:
22 - Stanislaw Skalski
18 - Witold Urbanowicz
16 - Eugeniusz Horbaczewski (+ 4 V1)
14 - Boleslaw "Mike" Gladych
12 - Jan Eugeniusz Zumbach
AUSTRALIA:
28 - Clive Caldwell
23 - C. C. Scherf
17 - Keith Truscott
15 - John Waddy
15 - Patrick C. Hughes
NEWZEALAND:
27 - Colin Falkland Gray
22 - Alan Christopher Deere
21 - William Vernon Crawford-Compton
21 - Raymond Brown Hessylyn
21 - Evan Dall Macjie
KANADA:
31 - George F. Beurling
21 - Vernon C. Woodward
21 - H. W. McLeod
17 - Robert W. McNair
17 - George Wittman
SOUTH AFRIKA:
35 - Adolf Gysbert Malan
34 - Marmaduke Pattle
23 - C. LeRoux
22 - P. H. Hugo
18 - A. G. Lewis
BELGIUM:
13 - Rodolphe de Hemicourt de Grunne
8 - Yvan Monceau de Bergendael
7 - Jean H. M. Offenberg
7 - Victor M. M. Ortmans
6 - Charles F. J. Detal
NORWAY:
15 - Sevin Heglund
11 - Werner Christie
10 - Helner G. E. Grundt-Spang
9 - Martin Y. Gran
9 - Marius Eriksen
Tschechien:
20 - Karel Miroslav Kuttelwascher
17 - Josef Frantisek
15 - Alois Vasatko
12 - Frantisek Perina
11 - Otto Smik
Now i wonder, how is this huge difference between the Axis and the Allies to explain ?
Don't u think the german planes need a tune up in this game??!! ( FW190s, Ta152)
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Axis flyers in this game just need to learn to fly.
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pls note that the Eastern front was a turkey shoot for the Luftwaffe between 1941 and 42.
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Essentially...
Axis pilots flew in combat beginning from when they started the war back in 1939 (or even earlier in China or the Spanish revolution) and until they died or the war ended in '45. And even when shot down most often they were over "friendly" territory and so they rejoined thier groups immediately.
The Allied pilots (US and UK anywayw) on the other hand had to be in theatre for a shorter "tour of duty." One reason was that the Allies wanted to ensure that they retained thier combat pilot experiuence to train newr pilots. However when Allied pilots were shot down, from anti-air flak, mechanical malfunction or by an enemy pilot, they were usually over "enemy" territoy and captured if not killed. Taking them out of action for the rest of the war.
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You also get the impression (at least I do) that a lot of pilots on the Eastern front had a lot of leeway in deciding when to engage or when to avoid engaging and how long to stay engaged in the fight. The top pilots seemd to be selective hunters, compared to the pilots on the Western front who had no choice in engaging bombers and encountering poor numerical odds directly defending the homeland. If you look at some of the top allied pilots and their kill per sortie ratios, then you can imagine a similar score to the LW pilots flying in the west were they kept in combat and as long as they were able to find LW planes to engage in any numbers.
Also, you can't discount the early war tactical advantages the LW and German forces in general enjoyed from their experience in Spain. Many of the early victories were achieved with lesser quality equipment but better tactics, experienced personnel, better doctrine and leadership.
Charon
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It's also a well known fact that kills during WWII were also grossly over stated - by all sides.
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Not exactly:
Russians lost more aircrafts against FiAF than what our pilots "officially" shot down (awarded victories).
IIRC also at some point of the war Russian pilots got only victories ground troops could find so basically if the fight was fought over enemy ground they couldn't prove their victories.
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German pilots flew until they died, or the war ended.
Allied pilots flew a tour, then rotated to train new pilots to give them their experience.
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Not sure, but I think the germans also counted a couple of ground kills too...
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Originally posted by acepilot2
Not sure, but I think the germans also counted a couple of ground kills too...
Fighter pilots? I don't think so..
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If you look at total kills per missions flown you will see a much different picture. Lot of US aces will compare very favorably with the German top aces.
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Another interesting thought, is the 'aces' we know today, might not have survived through the end, if they had no choice but to fight the whole duration of the war like JP or German pilots.
I'm very sure if that happened we'd also get to see 200 kill aces in the Allied side, but some of them could be the aces we know today, but a lot of others, may be not, with our currently 'familiar faces' being killed in action earlier than we may want to think.
In the end, it seems to me the 'hot-shots' never can endure, and only those who can firmly take the years of stress under fire, and still maintain a sense of self-control, survive through the war and become a super-ace. Their flying skills may seem like nothing special, but they survived!
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Originally posted by Rude
Axis flyers in this game just need to learn to fly.
Well if you go over the last few tours you will see that the D9 has the highest K/D among any non perked fighter. Maybe it is the allied pilots wearing the tutus who should be wondering.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Another interesting thought, is the 'aces' we know today, might not have survived through the end, if they had no choice but to fight the whole duration of the war like JP or German pilots.
I'm very sure if that happened we'd also get to see 200 kill aces in the Allied side, but some of them could be the aces we know today, but a lot of others, may be not, with our currently 'familiar faces' being killed in action earlier than we may want to think.
In the end, it seems to me the 'hot-shots' never can endure, and only those who can firmly take the years of stress under fire, and still maintain a sense of self-control, survive through the war and become a super-ace. Their flying skills may seem like nothing special, but they survived!
Adolph Glunz can attest to your statement, and so can Dortenmann. Glunz especially he was a work of art in an airplane. sad to say the last I had heard he had alzheimers and was not in good condition. If you do not know anything about him you might want to read up on him. He never broke 100 kills, but he was one of the pilots that went up alone, and was never shot down the entire war. Simply amazing fellow.
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Also....remember as the war dragged on......the axis had more targets....and the Allies fewer. 1944 to 1945 most of the time
Allied Fighters rarely found an enemy to fight....LW only upped
to engage incoming Bombers. Even so...eventually fewer fighters from the LW upped even to intercept Allied Bombers, not because
a lack of aircraft.....because of lack of fuel and trained Pilots.
Hastily trained LW Pilots became .50 Cal fodder for the allied fighters and fighter bombers. Experienced LW pilots were few
in number. One of the keys to the allied air victory over Europe
and the Pacific was the training of Allied Pilots. Experience was
not lost in a chute or in a downed fighter, but used to train fighter and bomber pilots. Called thinking ahead, something the LW never did very well, nor the IJN. Combat experience was lost with the Pilot, and not passed on.
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Originally posted by AHGOD
Well if you go over the last few tours you will see that the D9 has the highest K/D among any non perked fighter. Maybe it is the allied pilots wearing the tutus who should be wondering.
The only reason the D9 has that high K/D is because those who fly it tend to cherry pick rather than engage...not that anythiing is wrong with that of course.
I think Lazs refers to that style of flyin as sky accountanting....Women with Wings suits me better.
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True. The Axis setup provided them with some aces with an incredible kill list, but however they ran out of competent pilots in the end.
BTW, there is a RAF ace that always seems to slip away from those lists, - namely "Pat" Pattle with 50 kills, - there of 15 in a Biplane!
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I dont care what the furballing mentality says it takes nerves of steel to attack a formation of bombers. To do it right and use patience is very rare and you can see that in the main arena time after time. The guys that attack multiple formations demonstrate the most willingness to put themselves at risk to stop the enemy.
I would be interested in seeing how many survived this sort of mission on a regular basis in the real world. It doesnt take anything to be brave in a video game. In the real world you would have to be young, healthy, and under orders.
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Originally posted by wetrat
Fighter pilots? I don't think so..
Well, think again. JG52 was documented as claiming air-to-air kills when it was strafing gliders on the ground.
There are those who question the German kill figures, which are way out of proportion to any other country's experience (Japanese, Russian, English, whatever).
- oldman
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Oldman: I did a comparison between RAF losses and LW claims on the same front in the same frame of time. The LW claims were pretty accurate, - on some days up to 100%. However, many times a damaged RAF plane was claimed as destroyed with full verification and blessing of the LW, - RAF plane hower RTB with some holes to fill.
A rough estimation of the LW overclaims was about 10-20% which is about as good as it gets anywhere I guess.
However, the list of RAF losses was complete, while I may not have had all the claims of the other side, so were more data to be found, the error margin would be bigger.
Anyway, interesting stuff.
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Quite intresting that no-one has brought out any issues of tactics and training :)
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Originally posted by Rude
Axis flyers in this game just need to learn to fly.
Hehe, shame on ya Rude, rubbin' salt in a wound ain't nice, even if it is an imaginary wound. ;)
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Originally posted by ghi
I have just found a List of the Flight Aces of WW2, and im wondering why most of the Allies have so few kills compared to the Axis??!!!
Look at your list of German pilots. All of them were shot down numerous times during the war.
Generally speaking, allied pilots who were shot down didn't go home.
Russian pilots fared somewhat better than other allied pilots. No doubt this was due to two things: 1) For a good fraction of the war, there were fighting over their homeland. 2) They were flying La7s.
curly
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Originally posted by AKIron
Hehe, shame on ya Rude, rubbin' salt in a wound ain't nice, even if it is an imaginary wound. ;)
I'm sorry....I keep forgetting how tenderhearted the LW is in AH:)
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German 3rd ace Gunther Rall was shot down 8 times. With his 275 kills that makes 34 kills per "death" so to speak. Quite a few allied aces topped that.
However aces like Glunz or Marseille have a better record in that sence, - while others like Rudorffer had to bite the dust 18 times!!
I knew the Icelandic ace, Tony Jonsson some bit. He spent some 500 hrs + on combat missions, returning from WW2 with the humble score of 9 planes or so. However, most of those were deep over enemy territory, - just an engine failiure would have done it for him there. Missions were all sorts, Rhubarbs, Circuses, Scrambles, Night patrols, Bomber intercepts, Sweeps, Deep escorts (i.e. Berlin), and then the dirty work, dive bombing, Train/tankbusting and V-1/V-2 raids along with V-1 intercepts.
From his startup having a solo dogfight against 2x109's in his first sortie to doing cold and boring escorts to Berlin, things changed a lot. All the way from a hostile sky full of bandits into days and even weeks without even spotting an enemy plane.
In the course of events however, most of his buddies either got killed, captured or rotated.
Anyway, such would be the fate of so many an allied pilot. Fighting deep over enemy territory, doing very dangerous ground jobs, getting long rotations/rests, being moved out for instructions and then again, for the last part of the war, not finding anything to shoot at.
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Early war the LW tactics were far superior, using techniques most modern pilots would recognise as standard practise thesedays. Whereas the RAF insisted on 'big wing' formation attacks, flying tight V formations, and the lufberry.
Germany had used Spain as a testing ground for its aircraft, tactics and getting its pilots some experience.
Then during the BoB the RAF improved somewhat, however the LW fighters still had the advantage of the LW bombers being the targets.
Then there was the eastern front slaughter against young inexperienced soviet pilots.
Then in the late war the LW fighters were fighting a purely defensive roll over home territory, in many cases they were shot down (as above). The LW also put high value on their pilots heads and from what I understand survivability bailing from a german aircraft was much higher (as can be seen with the LW implementations of early ejection seats, high speed chutes etc) than bailing from an allied plane.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Also....remember as the war dragged on......the axis had more targets....and the Allies fewer. 1944 to 1945 most of the time
Allied Fighters rarely found an enemy to fight....LW only upped
to engage incoming Bombers. Even so...eventually fewer fighters from the LW upped even to intercept Allied Bombers, not because
a lack of aircraft.....because of lack of fuel and trained Pilots.
Hastily trained LW Pilots became .50 Cal fodder for the allied fighters and fighter bombers. Experienced LW pilots were few
in number. One of the keys to the allied air victory over Europe
and the Pacific was the training of Allied Pilots. Experience was
not lost in a chute or in a downed fighter, but used to train fighter and bomber pilots. Called thinking ahead, something the LW never did very well, nor the IJN. Combat experience was lost with the Pilot, and not passed on.
Hajo, may I ask where you can gather this kind of reasoning? That is absurd to be honest, the LW was called not only to fight the Bombers, but they had to support the infantry in a defensive roll being vectored in to the attacking Jabos. Your other statements I can only say BS as well. I have read countless entries of pilots going out on their first mission and getting a kill, and then failing to return on their second or third mission. You might want to read the book Greenhearts, first in combat with the Dora 9 this would be a good starting point for you. You will see the interaction between flight leaders and what they did to ensure the young pilots were brought up to speed (which was usually in a hostie environment on familiarity flights).
Can't stand people that think they know everything and can summarize it all after reading WW2 in a nutshell.
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Originally posted by Angus
German 3rd ace Gunther Rall was shot down 8 times. With his 275 kills that makes 34 kills per "death" so to speak. Quite a few allied aces topped that.
However aces like Glunz or Marseille have a better record in that sence, - while others like Rudorffer had to bite the dust 18 times!!
I knew the Icelandic ace, Tony Jonsson some bit. He spent some 500 hrs + on combat missions, returning from WW2 with the humble score of 9 planes or so. However, most of those were deep over enemy territory, - just an engine failiure would have done it for him there. Missions were all sorts, Rhubarbs, Circuses, Scrambles, Night patrols, Bomber intercepts, Sweeps, Deep escorts (i.e. Berlin), and then the dirty work, dive bombing, Train/tankbusting and V-1/V-2 raids along with V-1 intercepts.
From his startup having a solo dogfight against 2x109's in his first sortie to doing cold and boring escorts to Berlin, things changed a lot. All the way from a hostile sky full of bandits into days and even weeks without even spotting an enemy plane.
In the course of events however, most of his buddies either got killed, captured or rotated.
Anyway, such would be the fate of so many an allied pilot. Fighting deep over enemy territory, doing very dangerous ground jobs, getting long rotations/rests, being moved out for instructions and then again, for the last part of the war, not finding anything to shoot at.
Finnish pilot whose names escapes me had 70 or 80+ kills never had a hole put in his plane that is whatI call impressive considering he was flying outdated equipment until he was able to fly the 109. Adolph Glunz is the only pilot to serve the entire war and never be shot down, and he flew 190's ;) Being transferred to JV44 in the closing months he was not able to fly the 262 can only imagine what he could have done if he had been transferred earlier to JG2.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Then during the BoB the RAF improved somewhat, however the LW fighters still had the advantage of the LW bombers being the targets.
This statement is incorrect, 109's having to fly at the same speed of the bombers, so they could not use the advantage of speed. They were ordered to stay with the bombers which was a blunder. Sending in the 110 at the same speed resulted in it being pulled after being mauled by British fighters. The 110 did hold a slight advantage over the Hurricane but was not used the way it should. All apples and oranges but still makes for good discussion.
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Hmm...AHGOD, you sure you are not missing something here:
! Adolph Glunz is the only pilot to serve the entire war and never be shot down"
I think you must be!
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Originally posted by Angus
Hmm...AHGOD, you sure you are not missing something here:
! Adolph Glunz is the only pilot to serve the entire war and never be shot down"
I think you must be!
Read a few books there Junior. You might come to the realization that yes he was never shot down and yes he fought the entire war.
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Addi Glunz may well have been one of the best fighter pilots in WW2, never shot down, never wounded, 71 kills total, 68 of them in the west all through the war!
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Well they lasted from 39 to 45 - a period of 6 years - so at least we can say they are 52 times better than the French.
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Among Addi Glunz, also the Finnish pilot Ilmari Juutilainen of 94 kills also flew from 1939 to 1945 and was never shot down :)
But the very high scores of the Luftwaffe pilots are number of lots and lots of factors. Many pilots of course flew for many years, but not all flew until war ended or they died - many also served in non flying duties, in HQ, as trainers and so on.
On the other hand lots of Brit and US pilots served numerous tours. So it is incorrect to lump them all "they served 30 missions and went home".
Take notice that many German top pilots came into service in 1942 or 1943, already when German forces were in retreat. So also claiming that German pilots flew over friendly lines isn't the whole picture - especially in the eastern front they flew a lot in the hostile side of the front lines as well.
But a lot of Luftwaffe's successes can be attiributed to the suberb tactics and training, especially in the first half of the war. The Luftwaffe was the most formidable and most expererienced air force in teh world after the Spanish Civil War until maybe the 1943. Or even later, if they could have concentrated their forces. Fighting in four fronts caused unlimited string of problems, yet the pilots fought bravely.
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Originally posted by Grendel
Among Addi Glunz, also the Finnish pilot Ilmari Juutilainen of 94 kills also flew from 1939 to 1945 and was never shot down :)
This was the pilot whose name escaped me, from what I read he also never had a bullet hole in his aircraft. Had to have been a wonder woman thing. Awesome pilot.
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A couple of points gents:
The vast majority of 100+ victory Luftwaffe aces gained the largest percentage of their kills against the Soviets. Considering the state of Soviet aviation in their first two years of the war with Germany, that should not be a surprise. Indeed, the Finns abused them too, and usually flying lesser aircraft than the Luftwaffe.
As for Japanese and Soviet individual scores, historians generally believe that if you take their kill totals and divide by 3, you come closer to the actual totals. Both the Japanese and Soviets handed out "confirmed" kills like candy on halloween. Japan was especially generous in this regard, honoring almost every claim. Typically they over-claimed by a factor of 4, the highest of any major combatant in the war.
As to the Soviets, if you factor all claims of Luftwaffe aircraft and compare that to the total number fielded by the Germans, the Soviets would have killed the entire Luftwaffe (beginning in September of 1939) twice over. This doesn't mean that the Germans, Brits and Americans didn't over-claim, they surely did. However, many claims were disallowed by far stricter rules of confirmation than were employed by the Japanese and Soviets.
Many of the British pilots shot down in 1940 were recovered and were back in the air almost immediately. Likewise for German pilots defending against Allied bombing attacks. I believe that Hartmann was forced down 14 times during the course of the war in the east. Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, there was no other option but to keep pilots in combat until they were dead or injured too badly to fly. That certainly contributed to their high kill scores. But, it should be stated that their level of skill was extraordinary by any standard.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
A couple of points gents:
As for Japanese and Soviet individual scores, historians generally believe that if you take their kill totals and divide by 3, you come closer to the actual totals.
And it was these same historians that were in combat right? LOL, historians are like Lawyers accept they make less.
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the soviets( and indeed most commies) idea of warfare is throw more men at the enemy then he has bullets. say the Jerrys shoot 100 russkis and the commies kncok down 10 germans but only 20 germans come from pilot training the next month while 200 commies?
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Originally posted by AHGOD
And it was these same historians that were in combat right? LOL, historians are like Lawyers accept they make less.
There's no rocket science involved. One merely examines the Japanese kill claims and compares them to actual Allied losses. The net result is that the Japanese claimed 4 times as many as the Allies lost. If all Japanese claims against the AVG were accurate, they would have been wiped out within three weeks of the start of the war. Japanese pilots claimed 85 AVG fighters in air to air combat. They actually shot down 4. That's it, just 4 fighters were lost to Japanese aircraft. In exchange, the AVG was paid bounties for 296 kills (some believe they actually killed no more than 120). The vast majority of AVG aircraft losses resulted from enemy bombing, prangs and a lack of spare parts leading many aircraft down for mechanical failure to be abandoned when the AVG retreated with the Chinese Army.
All it takes is someone willing to expend the time to research the records. Luftwaffe, RAF and American records were carefully kept and carefully preserved.
My regards,
Widewing
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I am always willing to accept the fact that communsts are insatiable liers... :)
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Again.,..
After not reading any posts at all im going to agree with Grun here... :D
Make me proud as to what im agreeing to Grun, i trust your judgement :D
On to another matter.... I like well shaped female bumps.
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Check this guy, he never saw the eastern front. He downed more then 60 Spitfires.
Priler (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html)
Check Helmut Lipfert's list. He only start fighting in 1943. By then the Russians where no noobs no more.
Helmut Lipfert (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lipfert.html)
I still think that it got to be something about those FW's and 109's that made them so effective.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Check this guy, he never saw the eastern front. He downed more then 60 Spitfires.
Priler (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html)
Check Helmut Lipfert's list. He only start fighting in 1943. By then the Russians where no noobs no more.
Helmut Lipfert (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lipfert.html)
I still think that it got to be something about those FW's and 109's that made them so effective.
I have listings of the aces on the Western Front and you will be surprised that a lot of them whacked quite a few Spits. Personally I think it is just the pilot and the skill they developed. Some were just plain old gifted, 1 pilot i have great respect and admiration for is Dortenmann, WeiB is another that comes to mind. Hackl is another, there are so many to name. They were just incredible in the rides they wee given. Pokryshkin (SP?) was a great russian pilot and he deserves to be mentioned as well.
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Another pilot worht mentioning was Marseilles. He was an incredible shot and if I do recall he had the most kills in a couple minute. He is one of my other favorite pilots.
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Originally posted by AHGOD
Another pilot worht mentioning was Marseilles. He was an incredible shot and if I do recall he had the most kills in a couple minute. He is one of my other favorite pilots.
So it's rumored. But seems to me that Johnnie Johnson checked out these figures and found out that Marseilles could not possibly have gotten all those kills on that one day.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Widewing
Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, there was no other option but to keep pilots in combat until they were dead or injured too badly to fly.
And if you read Hans Ulrich Rudel's biography, in some cases even massive injuries didn't keep them out of the sky...
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I think none off them where forced to go on.
A good fighter pilot never wants to quit.
me thinks
:)
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Originally posted by Oldman731
So it's rumored. But seems to me that Johnnie Johnson checked out these figures and found out that Marseilles could not possibly have gotten all those kills on that one day.
- oldman
Interesting. Who is Johnnie Johnson, and what were his arguments?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Interesting. Who is Johnnie Johnson, and what were his arguments?
He is an RAF pilot who scored far fewer kils than Jochen Marsailles. :)
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Originally posted by Westy
Essentially...
Axis pilots flew in combat beginning from when they started the war back in 1939 (or even earlier in China or the Spanish revolution) and until they died or the war ended in '45.
Well ..... the SCW, certainly. China? Really? Now that deserves some research. Cool.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Interesting. Who is Johnnie Johnson, and what were his arguments?
I guess it's some LW report I've to dig in my doc. but it seems that Marseilles claimed some kills already claimed by other LW pilots.
btw with partial kills you can have strange results ... I remember of 4 RAF pilots killing a 110 : 3 pilots got 1/3 of the kill and the 4th got 1/2 victory
For the math impaired it make 1.5 kill for the poor 110 :D
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Originally posted by Shiva
And if you read Hans Ulrich Rudel's biography, in some cases even massive injuries didn't keep them out of the sky...
If you read Douglas Bader's you get the same. :D
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Originally posted by Widewing
There's no rocket science involved. One merely examines the Japanese kill claims and compares them to actual Allied losses. The net result is that the Japanese claimed 4 times as many as the Allies lost.
In exchange, the AVG was paid bounties for 296 kills (some believe they actually killed no more than 120).
Yes, it goes both ways. It looks like AVG overclaims with at least 2:1-3:1 ratio. Historicians checking AVG claims from Japanese archives have found vast disparencies even from combats, which were well reported by both sides.
It goes even more interesting. It's been found out that AVG pilots actually bought kills from the British pilots, who were "just" fighting and not getting paid for their kills.
Information about that can be found for example from Dan Ford's site, http://www.danford.net and his discussion forums. Dan Ford is an AVG researcher and expert.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
He is an RAF pilot who scored far fewer kils than Jochen Marsailles. :)
ROFL
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Originally posted by Arlo
If you read Douglas Bader's you get the same. :D
Bader's story is good but Rudel is just insane. Big Difference.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Interesting. Who is Johnnie Johnson, and what were his arguments?
'Johnnie' Johnson:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/86bios/johnso86.htm
The following is a posting to a newsgroup (rec.aviation.military):
About Marseille: Hans Ring and Christopher Shores did a day by day analysis of aerial combat in their classic research Fighters Over the Desert. Marseille claimed all but a few of his 158 accredited victories over the desert (he had not matured into a top pilot when he flew in the Battle of Britain). Ring and Shores able to link over 100 of his claims to actual crash sites including 12 of 17 claimed in one day. Top RAF pilot Johnnie Johnson (38 kills) mocks Marseille in his autobiography Wing Leader, indication that Marseilles' 17 claims were more than ALL RAF losses in the desert on the given day. What Johnson did not realize was
that the planes Marseille shot down were not RAF, but South African. Ring and Shores indicate that as Marseille became more and more exhausted from incessant combat and more and more confident (ie. overconfident) in his growing skill a larger number of his victories were overclaimed (ie.probably limping back to base).
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Hans-Joachim Marseille - Desert Eagle.
Written by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I look into muzzles, nothing can happen to me. Only if he pulls lead am I in danger"
Hans-Joachim Marseille. LG2, JG52, JG27. Total combat sorties: 382. Total victories: 158. (7 Battle of Britain, 151 North Africa. 101 P-40s, 30 Hurricanes, 16 Spitfires, 4 two-engine bombers) Killed on active service on September 30th 1942.
A group of Bedouin instinctively raised their heads toward the low buzzing sound of high flying airplanes, which had already become familiar sight for them. Their quiet, leisurely conversation stopped. Wrapped in thawbs, their postures became still, as they followed little dark specs on the background of a blue sky. One of those points was trailing a string of white smoke. A few moments later, it turned upside down - slowly directing its nose toward the earth. At almost the same instant a tiny black dot separated itself from the spec, going its own way but in the similar direction. They knew, that up there, it was a man falling down. But expected white umbrella of parachute did not appear. The black dot continued its trip toward the line of the horizon, where it retired. Arabs resumed their conversation, commenting on what they just seen. They decided, however, that it was too far to go and look for the body to rob it of its valuables. Especially since two of planes lowered their flight and started to circle around the place where the body met its destination. The Bedouin knew that soon someone would come to look for the corpse. What they didn't know was, that it was the "Eagle of Africa" that had fallen. The man, who was one of the very best that had ever flown up there. His name was Hans-Joachim Marseille.
* * *
Born of French Huguenot ancestry on December 13th 1919, in Berlin-Charlottensburg, (which explains non-German family name) Marseille was destined for military carrier. At the time of his childhood everything in Germany was military oriented. His father was an officer. Some sources indicate that his was a pilot in W.W.I, although this is unlikely. It is known that he was killed at Stalingrad while being an infantry general. It is also unlikely that Hans-Joachim was raised in home set upon strict military discipline or army tradition. His parents divorced early in his early teens with his mother remarrying a policeman. A doting woman, she often failed to discipline her son for mischief or bad behavior. As he became an adult, Germany was gearing up for war. While efforts to train pilots were being stepped up a young Marseille joint one of old Deutsche Lufthansa flying schools - which at that time was openly training military pilots under patronage of RLM (Reichsluftministerium). On November 7th 1939 he joined Luftwaffe.
His early efforts in the war were undistinguished. Although he shot down 7 aircraft during Battle of Britain, he himself fell victim to enemy fighters on four occasions. Johannes Steinhoff had him transferred out of 4/JG52 for insubordination. Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff (176 victories) remembered: "Marseille was remarkably handsome. He was gifted pilot and fighter, but he was unreliable. He had girlfriends everywhere, who took up so much of his time that he was often too tired to be allowed to fly. His often irresponsible understanding of duty was the primary reason I sent him packing. But he had irresistible charm"
Marseille "landed" in I/JG27 where his new Kommandeur, Edu Neumann show some forbearance recognizing in him great potential. It was noticed that he possessed superb acrobatic flying skills, excellent eyesight and an acute sense of tactics. Marseille on the ground often displayed boyish behavior. He was a great joker - always ready for mischief. He wore his hair long and listen to jazz and swing music. He also carried a reputation as a "playboy" which isolated him a little bit from other pilots. In retrospect, he was unorthodox in the fullest sense.
At the very beginning of his flying in Africa, Marseille got shot down by a Hurricane flown by a Free French pilot. It made for him a very unimpressive start. He settled in quickly, however, getting used to the very different flying conditions, as compared to those in Europe. Marseille practice dummy attacks on his cammaraten, seeking ways to shoot quickly and accurately. He insisted on perfecting a deflection shot from any given angle, using different speeds. Standard Jagdwaffe procedure was to apply full throttle all the time. Here Marseille's unorthodox character showed up again. Often he would throttle down to get to an attacking position. During combat he also lowed his flaps, in order to decrease radius of a turn. Eventually, he improved in the game of air combat, developing an instinctive taste for it. Marseille always had to be on the top. He was a very ambitious warrior who wanted to shoot down a lot of aircraft. Flamboyant flyer, he also had a great need for being accepted and appreciated.
With tactics soon perfected, his score rose dramatically. On February 22, 1942 he reached 50 (43 in forty weeks); 75 on June 5 (25 in fifteen weeks); and 101 on June 18 (26 in thirteen days), clearly becoming very effective "killing machine" in its highest gear. On June 15 he shot down 4 aircraft in three minutes. Two days later he score 6 in only ten minutes. It seemed, that he was always able to put himself in an advantageous position when engaging enemy aircraft. Thanks to his eyesight and hunter instinct he was able to see his opponents first. The esteem and admiration of his colleagues began to rise quickly too. Many tried to copy his routines but was not able to duplicate them. Friedrich Körner (36 victories) commented: "Yeah, everybody knew nobody could cope with him. Nobody could do the same. Some of the pilots tried it, like Stahlschmidt, myself, and Rödel. He was an artist." (from interview with Koerner conducted by Rob Tate in 1994)
At this time, DAF (Desert Air Force) fighters, and especially fighter-bombers, when caught in disadvantageous situation, used to formed the Lufbery Circle. That seemed to work on Marseille as a waving red cloth in front of a bull. At the expense of several of his own aircraft, he developed a tactic that enabled him to enter and defeat this defensive formation.
"... Marseille's approach to the problem was typically unorthodox: a short dive to gain speed, then up and under from outside the circle, using the blind spot under the adversary's wing; close to 150 feet, a brief burst of fire, then up and away, using the accumulated speed of the dive to soar high above the circle; down again once more on the outside but this time coming from above at a moderate deflection angle of perhaps 30 degrees; ease the stick back, then, as the target disappears beneath the nose, a brief burst of fire, then up and outward once more, or down and outward, ready for another climbing attack..." Mike Spick. Luftwaffe Fighter Aces. page 123
Hardly the brainchild of a genius, the tactic proved so successful because of Marseille's ability to execute it. It required extremely precise timing and distance-judgment. A very accurate aiming was a must. Farther more, only a pilot who mastered his aircraft completely, could do it. Using this tactics Jochen scored very well. It is well known fact that his tidy-minded armourers kept account of rounds expended for each sortie. That was used to calculate the amount of ammunition which Marseille needed for each kill. Combat reports analyzed in Berlin showed that, at the peak of his abilities, Marseille needed 15(!) shells and bullets to make him shout Horrido! This farther contributed to his staggering achievements.
On September 1st 1942 (ironically, a 3rd anniversary of outbreak of the war) Marseille down 17 allies planes in three sorties. His first encounter that day was with a P-40 which had attack Stukas. It went down in flames rather quickly. Then six Spitfires acting as escort to Kittyhawks dropped down on Bf-109s. Marseille lowered his flaps and throttling back almost staling his aircraft, causing Spitfires to shoot past him. The last got a full course meal from of Jochen's 20-mm canons and machine guns. The British fighter literally disintegrated in mid air. In the short skirmish which then transpired, another Spit was victimized by Marseille, as well as a second P-40 trying to escape on deck.
Times of victories: 08:28; 08:30; 08:33; 08:39.
On his second flight that morning, Jochen flew top cover for Ju-87s. They ran into big party of DAF fighters and bombers. Marseille with his wingman intercepted eight P-40s on their dive for Stukas, and allies planes formed the circle soon after this. He shot down two of his opponents immediately and the circle broke up. As they scattered, Jochen knocked down three more. He took his sixth after short chase, with a very long deflection shot. Throughout all this, his wingman flew close cover. They both climbed up again only to spot another flight of unsuspecting Kittyhawks. Marseille approached alone and shot down his seventh. After turning home he came upon yet another P-40 trailing white smoke. It became his eighth in this flight and probably was his easiest victim.
Times of victories: 10:55; 10:56; 10:58; 10:59; 11:01; 11:02; 11:03; 11:05.
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Eight aircraft in ten minutes! Back in the base, as soon as he opened the canopy of his 109, he learned that Feldmarschall Kesselring was visiting his unit. Upon reporting to Operations HQ tent, Marseille declared 12 enemy aircraft shot down. Kesselring inquired of him the number he shot himself, and Jochen replied accordingly: "Twelve, Sir". His supreme commander did not say a word. Later, he admitted to being astonished. That was a very busy day for all pilots of the JG-27. After a meal and a short rest, Marseille departed as an escort to Ju-88s which were seeking to bomb British troops concentrations. The battle of Alam el Halfa was at its highest point. Fifteen P-40s attacked Junkers, which in turn were attacked by Marseille's pilots. A series of dogfights erupted which gradually brought fighting aircraft from 5,000 feet to almost ground level. In this aerial fracas the "Eagle of Africa" shot down another five P-40s.
Times of victories: 18:46; 18:47; 18:48; 18:49; 18:53.
That brought his daily tally to seventeen. That was a great deal of scrap production for one man! Understandably, there was a lot of celebrating with shnaps and egg flips that evening, in a tent set up as a cocktail bar by Marseille himself. The only problem was the fact that the German pilots did not stop enemy bombers, which inflicted heavy loses on Afrika Korps.
Apparently, there is still a lot debating whether it really happened. Shooting seventeen aircraft in one day is certainly possible. Emil "Bully" Lang claimed eighteen victories in one day. They were achieved however on Russian front where opposition was much less potent, especially when mounted by lousy, poorly flown and maintained P-39s. Luftwaffe procedures were very strict when it came to confirmation of victories. To register one, pilot had to fill comprehensive victory report which was followed by combat report. To this, Gruppenkommandeur endorsement had to be attached. Then a report from Unteroffizier from air intelligence regiment was added. A report from a witness (or preferably two) completed the claim. There wasn't much room to overclaim, and the Luftwaffe was difficult to fool. It is worth noticing that in October 1941 long range nightfighting was abandoned, even though it resulted in many successful sorties over Britain. This happened mostly because it was impossible to confirm victories claimed by German Nachtjagd. Marseille's seventeen aircraft downed on September 1st was confirmed in Berlin.
Two days later heavy fighting continued. DAF's Kittyhawks MkIIs of the 260 squadron were trounced by Marseille's unit. A wild melee resulted with planes swarming around each other. Hans-Arnold "Fifi" Stahlschmidt (59 victories) wrote: "Today I have experienced my hardest combat. But at the same it has been my most wonderful experience of comradeship in the air. We had combat in the morning, at first with forty Hurricanes and Curtis's, later some twenty Spitfires appeared from above. We were eight Messerschmitts in the midst of an incredible whirling mass of enemy fighters. I flew my 109 for my life, but although the superior strength of the enemy was overwhelming, not one of us shirked our duty, all turning like madmen. I worked with every gramme of my energy, and by the time we finished I was foaming at my mouth being utterly exhausted. Again and again we had enemy fighters on our tails. I was forced to dive three or four times, but every time I did pull up and rushed into turmoil. Once I seemed to have no escape; I had flown my 109 to the limit of its performance, but a Spitfire was still behind me. At last moment Marseille shot it down, fifty meters from my aircraft. I dived and pulled up. Seconds later I saw a Spitfire behind Marseille. I took very careful aim at the enemy, and Spit went down burning. At the end of that combat only me and Marseille were left at the scene. Each of us has three victories. At home we climbed out of our planes and were thoroughly exhausted. Marseille had bullet holes in his 109, and I had eleven hits in mine. We embraced each other, and stand like this. We were unable to speak. It was unforgettable moment."
But war was taking its toll. The strain of constant fighting was showing heavily on pilots faces. There was a lack of supplies and the ever-present threat of British commando. Marseille had even more to bear. Thanks to his presence the morale of I/JG-27 was high. He was an idol and much was expected from him every day. Especially when gruppe lost Steinhausen on September 6th, and Stahlschmit next day. By that time Jochen was a famous experten. He became the youngest Captain in Luftwaffe and the fourth man to whom the Germany's highest military award: "The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds" was granted. Marseille was on a steady course to becoming one of the first 200-victories pilots when death struck. His last sortie on September 30 1942 was uneventful. At 10:47 they took off to escort Stuka dive bombers. The mission was completed and they were directed toward spotted enemy aircraft. Marseille's party failed to make contact and set a course for home. At 11:35 he indicated having smoke in the cockpit. His fellow pilots urged him stay in his 109 for a little bit longer, in order to reach German held territory. Once there, at 11:39 Marseille made his last radio transmission: "I have to get out. I can't stay here any more". At 10000 feet he inverted his faithful Messerschmitt and bailed out to his death. His body landed face down, 7 km south of Sidi.
* * *
Although the heat didn't encourage any activity, something told Mathias to wash Jochen clothes. Jochen liked to change into a fresh uniform after the flight. He always liked to look presentable. Mathias opted to use gasoline this time. They wash would dry in just few minutes. Usually, this was done by scrubbing uniforms with sand to rid it of salt, oil and grime. Everything was in short supply. Being a personal batman for Hans-Joachim Marseille, the most famous Luftwaffe pilot, had its advantages. For instance he was given a little of aircraft fuel for washing. Mathias liked being Jochens servant and he liked Jochen himself. They were friends. Mathias had barely started his chore, when the sound of approaching aircraft signaled to ground personnel to change torpidness for activness. Mathias put the lid on the soaking uniforms and started to walk towards the landing aircraft. He was looking for familiar plane which supposed to have number 14 painted in visible yellow on fuselage. It was supposed to land last. He noticed that three planes were missing, and last one to touch down had different number on it. Unalarmed, he turned toward Rudi who had already jumped on the ground from wing of his 109. He saw Mathias coming and cut short his conversation with his mechanic. His face was somber when he looked at Mathias and slowly shook his head. And Mathias understood immediately. He kept looking straight into Rudi's face for few more seconds, slowly turned and walked away. He noticed a strange sensation. No anger, sorrow, grief, nor resignation. He was calm yet something gripped his throat. Muscles on his neck tightened and he found it hard to swallow. He walked for few minutes without noticing others who were staring at him. He came to Jochen's colorful Volks called "Otto" and sat behind steering wheel. For a moment he looked like he wanted to go somewhere, but climbed out and approached the soaking uniforms. He looked at the canvas bag with initial H-J.M laying right beside it. He reached into his breast pocket for matches. Slowly but without any hesitation he struck a match and threw it on the laundry. Flames that burst out added to the already scourging heat. At that moment last rotte was flying in. Mathias intuitively lifted his head, following them. The lump in his throat got bigger.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well ..... the SCW, certainly. China? Really? Now that deserves some research. Cool.
Maybe he means Japanese pilots with china?
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Does anyone here have that book, fighters over the desert? If you do, could you look up 22/11 1942 for me:)
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What's special about that date Angus?
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Icelandic Ace Tony Jonsson claims a 109 at Bone airfield. Plane belly landed amongst the brits and Pilot was captured well and alive. Kill confirmed by Shores in his book Aces High, but is not mentioned by others, nor have I found the loss from the German side.
I have been trying to find the Pilot since year 2000 or so, and I have been both at the PRO and IWM photo archives, finding nothing but a photo that was supposed to be of the wreck, but with further investigation it turned out not to be.
(None the less, the misunderstanding sort of confirmed the kill, they just photographed the wrong wreck)
Anyway, GScholz, do you have the book?
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Eh ... no. Sorry.
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The South Africans would have been flying as part of the RAF at that time. I doubt a man of Johnson's standing and experience (Wing Commander during and Air Chief Marshall after WW2, I think) would have not been aware of the RAF order of battle at that time.
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Originally posted by Grendel
Yes, it goes both ways. It looks like AVG overclaims with at least 2:1-3:1 ratio. Historicians checking AVG claims from Japanese archives have found vast disparencies even from combats, which were well reported by both sides.
It goes even more interesting. It's been found out that AVG pilots actually bought kills from the British pilots, who were "just" fighting and not getting paid for their kills.
Information about that can be found for example from Dan Ford's site, http://www.danford.net and his discussion forums. Dan Ford is an AVG researcher and expert.
AVG pilots never bought kills from British pilots. That was a lie launched by a disgruntled RAF type who was highly annoyed that the AVG was getting $500 for each confirmed kill. He could never substantiate it and Chennault would have severely disciplined any pilot found to be doing so, as would the RAF. AVG members have threatened a law suit against anyone even suggesting that they purchased kills. Dan Ford has never made any such claim and does not believe it to be true. Dan writes: "I first ran across this question in Christopher Shores's Bloody Shambles, volume two, published by Grubb Street in 1993. If true, rumors of RAF victories "sold" or otherwise transferred to the AVG would have radically affected the conclusions I'd drawn in Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and the American Volunteer Group--not only in the number of victories I'd been able to attribute to the Tigers but, more important, my central assumption that these were honorable men. So I checked out the stories and concluded there was nothing to them."
As to their score against the Japanese; there were no surviving Japanese records. What does exist is a reconstruction of the records based upon the research of Japanese historians, some of whom have established that they have a axe to grind. Therefore, such "records" must taken with that in mind.
Dr. John Olynyk has examined the AVGs record and revised their score to 230 kills. Dr. Olynyk is recognized as being the foremost authority on the topic.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
AVG pilots never bought kills from British pilots.
Actually this exact topic has been under more debate during last and this year, there's been wealth of new information about it. And from what I recollect, there has been quite definite cases of AVG pilots either buying or "receiving" kills from British pilots.
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Don't recollect .... cite.
Virtual Pilots Finland Society vs. Cradle of Aviation Museum.
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AHGOD.....in your earlier post...refering to my post. Sorry I stated the facts. Evidently something that eludes you. Training was good for the Aces that started the war...read the first and the last by Galland. By the end of the war plane production was up!
The LW had more fighters then trained pilots. Read production figures for LW year 1944. They hastily trained pilots, put them into aircraft and sent them up against US and British Flyers who were more well trained and rested....they did become Fodder.
Their bases straffed....sometimes moving their base twice a week
because of allied fighter bomber straffing runs on their aerodromes. Destroying the infratstructure so that moving those fields, getting supplies to them by truck etc was very difficult, not to mention getting any kind of av gas and oil for their machinery.
You read...might enlighten you some as to what the conditions were in 44 and 45 for LW Pilots
References: The First and the Last A. Galland
The Luftwaffe Fighter Force
(a view from the top) A. Galland Et. al
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Originally posted by Grendel
Actually this exact topic has been under more debate during last and this year, there's been wealth of new information about it. And from what I recollect, there has been quite definite cases of AVG pilots either buying or "receiving" kills from British pilots.
Bah! There's no credible evidence whatsoever.
I count several of the AVG as personal friends, including Dick Rossi, Chuck Baisden and the late Erik Shilling. I am also the only person authorized by R.T. Smith's family to publish R.T.'s diary on the web.
There's little I don't know about the AVG and I've heard every rediculous rumor ever uttered dozens of times. I also know that no AVG pilot ever accepted or asked for (read that as bought) any kills from the RAF in Burma. Hell, the RAF took a beating in Burma, completely ignoring the advice of Chennault on how to fight the Japanese. Meanwhile, the AVG ran them ragged.
Dan Ford has spent more time researching the AVG than anyone else, and he dismissed claims of "kill buying".
I spent a great deal of time researching the Curtiss Tomahawks sold to China in an effort to establish that they were not Tomahawk IIB types as proposed by Dan, but actually hybrids manufactured using spares remaining from the previous Tomahawk IIA/P-40B production. After Erik and I presented my research and supported by Erik's own experience, Dan has concluded that the AVG aircraft were indeed, hybrids (the contract with Curtiss allowed Curtiss to build these fighters with the Tomahawk IIA fuel system, rather than that on the IIB, which had different fuel tanks and a provision for an external drop tank not found on any AVG fighters). What's my point? My point is that you will need genuine, unrefutable and verifiable evidence or you will be dismissed and labeled a rumor monger, just as Shores was for publishing his unsubstantiated tripe.
More than 60 years after the AVG was disbanded, people come out of the woodwork with rediculous and highly insulting claims directed at the few surviving Flying Tigers, all in their 80's now. Had anyone presented these men with these outrageous claims 40 years ago, they'd be regurgitating what remained of their natural teeth.
So, if you have some real evidence, present it. But, be advised that what Joe Average considers to be evidence is usually miles away from what trained historians will accept as minimal basis for review. Until you have written a Master's thesis to be submitted for review (including peer review) you can have no idea how difficult and daunting it can be to prove an argument that goes counter to generally accepted postulation of the discipline. In other words, you have to go a long, long way to prove something initially deemed counter-factual to the current history. The bar is set very high and falling short is not an option.
My regards,
Widewing