Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on December 03, 1999, 11:55:00 PM
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I decided to take an economic break for a while and discontinued my account at iEN (Warbirds).
My thinking was that I would enjoy AcesHigh while it was in free beta and then check back with Warbirds 3.0 and WW2 OnLine as they are released.
My concern today is this: I really like AcesHigh and I appreciate strongly the work of HTCreations, an alegience of sorts. Will WW2Online take most of the customer base away from HTC?, from WB 3.0?
Will HTC pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and offer a strategic model complete with armor, ground troops, navy and air or will it stay simply a flight sim and offer only a fraction of the total options
coming from the other two competitors?
I feel that both WBv3 and WW2OL will be competative with AH based soley on the properties of their flight sims but they will offer other aspects as well.
It is obvious (to me at least) that the AH customer base could shrink quickly to a unsustainable econmic model.
Yeager
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Yah Yeager that was exactly my concern as well.
See my "Development Ideas" thread a couple days ago I had originally mentioned that the merging of HTC+wwIIOnline might be a good thing. Either that or if HTC models the aerial side of the sim in more detail it might help to keep customers e.g.:
-spare planes left next to runway
-modelling the completely entire of planes (e.g. B17 so you can walk around)
-letting one run out to the airplanes etc..
However, there is going to be a lot of overlap with wwIIonline, especially with some of the more "cool" ideas.
There is always the possibility that wwIIonline and WB 3 will fail. The wwIIonline may never go anywhere and drown in its own complexity. While WB 3 might drown in the bureacratic crap that I call Interactive Magic (I have not once played a quality game produced by that company).
Lord HaHa
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I think the cost may be the deciding factor for more people than might admit it. Right now with the flat rate that AH is considering, there already out in front. When it all wash,s out. Its like any other product. Whats it cost , and what do I get for my money. I will no doubt try ww2online. But in truth, I dont care about tanks and boats. Im interested in flight simming.
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At the moment I'm skeptical that ww2online will be able to make their vision a reality. It's a nice idea, but trying to organize at the level they're talking about without a true rank / discipline system is gonna be a tough trick to pull off. Yeah I know they *say* they've got the rank / discipline system, but in reality it's a bunch of people who more often than not want to jump in for some fun without a whole lot of pre-organization. Everyone is always seemingly interested in the detailed strategy sims, but I've never seen the interest really last day in and day out. We'll see. In the meantime I hope HTC will perfect what they have instead of trying to dilute it with a grandiose scheme that goes beyond their current vision.
ko
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Whats the web address of ww 2 online and what developer makes it?
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Bet you won't believe this since you must of been looking for hours before asking the question here:
www.wwIIonline.com (http://www.wwIIonline.com)
go figure huh
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I really have to wonder. How many players on-line simultaneously does it take to make an air, ground and sea war interesting?
Seems like it would take quite a few. (300-500)
Mino
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Well, I am firstly a Flight Sim Person.
Right now, IMO the View System in Aces High is the hands down winner.
I like the fact that 55 Aircraft are modeled in Warbirds, but can't fly it because my SA gets blown.
I still have an iEN Account (To my knowledge HT and Pyro still hold stock also.)
I personally hope that WWIIOnline is a sim of historic proportion, and participation.
I personally want all three to make it, cause that makes competition, and competition is good for us, the customer.
Survival of HTC and iEN/Warbirds is good for Hitech and his stock portfolio.
Ultimately for me it comes down to finances. The $29.95 that HT proposes for Aces High is about the limit of my expenditure for this type of entertainment.
So, if WWIIOnline is any good, and say runs $20.00 a month, I could do an iEN $9.95 account (They say they are going flat rate also?) and a Playnet/CRS/WWIIOnline $20.00 account.
I hope that I don't have to make a difficult choice about what sim(s) I can play in the future.
Be nice to be able to afford an iEN, HTC, and Playnet/CRS account, and participate in all three.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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As online flight sim pilots, we've got a great thing coming up with AH, WBv3, and WWII OL, all hitting the market at roughly the same time. In short, there will be competition in for WWII flight sims for the first time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) . War Birds had the monopoly for a long time, I see all three developers working as hard as possible to provide the best product for the lowest rate.
Hang in there and wait...when the time comes to pay, we will have plenty of options.
IC
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You all are forgetting one other concern... what about connections? I discontinued my iEN account not because I was so disatisfied with their product but because I couldn't use it. It has (at the point I dropped my account) gotten to the point I couldn't remain connected a game for more than 5 minutes. This went on for 6 weeks, and the only answer iEN seemed to be able to provide was upraised palms, hunched shoulders, and empty promises of how great things were gonna be. I started playing AH, initially not liking it, but in the end developing a real taste for it. On one of my final visits to the iEN arena I realized that 10 minutes to get logged on for only 5 minutes of fun was ridiculous, incompetent, and intolerable. I cancelled the account and deleted everything to do with iEN from my computer.
Now everyone will decide what their relative break point is; I tend to be loyal to a company once I spend time there... think of it as protecting time invested (not to mention money). Still, if the company cannot deliver service there is nothing to be loyal to. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by -kier- (edited 12-04-1999).]
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Thanks HAHA for the URL,now you really made me feel like a bum.I made a fruitless search
using my search engine,in the back of mind i thought the url could be like it is.Thanks again i'll go check it out,and see if it delivers anything interesting.Ciao!
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How does WWII Online plan on making an interactive naval combat sim? Things happen so slowly at 25 knots, it would take hours for players to manuever into fighting position. Meanwhile they will be under constant attack by suicidal Jabos. It just seems to me that it will be very hard to simulate this in a way which is both enjoyable and realistic, they will have to make some big compromises to make it work. Does anyone know how this game will work? The webpage doesn't give many details.
--ra--
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I am a pilot so the sim that provides me with the most satisfactory flight sim will get my money.
I excepect certain things from the game a high fidelity flight, damage and gunnary models, a stimulating and challenging enviroment to play it in (read arena setup, strat, encouragements for me and others to fly a certain way), high degree of imersion (given by graphics historical accuracy etc.), the right price and finally (but most importantly) fun fun fun.
WWII Online will offer me extras (ground and sea war) assuming a price structure where you do everything but if HTC make a better flight sim at the right price they will have my money.
The fact that players are controlling all aspects may detract from some elements. Imagine having to depend on those Quakers on the ground to capture targets (people who play Quake not the religous sort, although i wouldn't depend on them either to capture a airfield). This is the reason WWII online is so ambitious not because of the programming or game design but because it will rely so heavily on the players to make it work, not just in the way they play the game but also how many people play.
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-04-1999).]
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-04-1999).]
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There is one fundamental concept that WWII online is making a big mistake on. There are going to be mission planners and everyday grunts. If you can only just jump into the game for a short period of time its real nice to be told what you have to do! I have observed that most players want to be, bigger then life in sims. If they are reduced a lesser role in their mind they will soon get bored and move on. I predict there will a great deal of bantering and unachieved objectives. How many people in general like to be told what they are going to do and pay for it as well! Parts of it may be fun but in the long run this sim is destined to fail! It is like playing a Senerio FOREVER! If you like to be on one side or another game scripts include resets so as to not loose a group and control play. Watch how many guys jump from side to side because a lot like there K/D ratio's or like to be on the winning side. This will be hard in WWII online and its easy to have fun kickin butt but if you are constantly getting beat you won't stay. Guys will proobably not swich side as much because of the rank structure and not stay because its not to loose all the time. Squad functions as we know it we be destroyed because the individual will be moving ahead or falling behind his freinds and constantly be in a new competitive invironment daily and weekly. Sooner or later there will be major attrition. Though we all think we want true realism when it really comes down to it... IT IS A GAME! HiTech is on the right path from that angle! I will be watching but I see more smoke then real substance on that Page. We have seen a lot of promises and puff in the Past with countless numbers of sims! Look at the record! Its more than realism, eye candy, and technical dribble that is posted on these pages... It is also playability and "DO I HAVE FUN WITH TIME I HAVE TO SEND ONLINE!"
If you do then you come back! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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There's definitely room in the online flight sim/war game market. There are more sims offered and more on the way, than in previous years. Warbirds is still enjoying a fair amount of players, albeit some real connection problems. AH is still in beta and working up a good head of steam. WWIIOnline has revealed some images and conceptually sounds very good. So, is there anything to be concerned about? I don't think so.
I think its the best time in history for players. I don't know about WB3. I haven't seen any specs on this. I know WWIIOnline will have a very integrated strat model with air, ground and I think sea warfare included. I read soemthing about espionage as well. Fascinating. AH has established their commitment to a good flight sim and some level of ground vehicles, sea vessels and strat model. Sounds good too.
Why players choose one over the other is a tough call. Why did VHS dominate Beta? VHS certainly wasn't the best. Feature for feature comparison doesn't insure success.
On the practical side, I'm with -kier- and his question, "...what about connections?" No game feature, graphic, price or community matters if the player connection is poor. I haven't been in WB in almost 6 months, but I remember my connection being great 99% of the time. Around the time I left, I began to hear from squadmates and other players about chronic problems, closing accounts and deep frustration. Obviously, connects are a big one and extremely critical. AH has been excellent with connects, so far. WWIIOnline will undoubtedly get their chance. WB as we know has problems, and if 3.0 is released, it may give them a chance to turn that around.
I see several winners and several possible winners in the picture. Are there others being conjured up we don't know about? Could be. A 'sleeper' might even appear and command a nice crowd.
As for the economics of running a sim, I'm certainly no expert. I think its fair to say that companies like HTC and Playnet, with their established and respective backgrounds, have given consideration to the question. Undoubtedly they have found better and more viable methods, both financially and technically, to handle things. Will they work in the long term? Who can say? Things change, and any or all of them might make more changes over time.
I personally find it fascinating that some players make decisions based on a relatively minor amount of time trying one sim, over something like WB, which they've played for months or years. I remember when WB was in beta (Confirmed Kill) and people I knew well would try it and say, 'I hate WB. I can't hit anything. The flight model is too difficult' and similar. You could argue that the only sims around at the time were very poor. There was also an argument at the time that it was TOO difficult for the average player and would fail. Time proved the latter incorrect. Hindsight being 20-20 we can't discount either point of view as unreasonable. Early judgments just didn't hurt the sims success. Aces High, WWIIOnline, and others could go the same way. We will see.
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Thunder, you made some huge assumtions as to gameplay and implemtation in ww2 online. I think you're wrong to be negative over ideas that may seem impossible to you, perhaps there are some things you don't understand yourself.
I personally can't say which game is going to be more successfull, perhaps they all will be successfull in thier own right.
As far as ww2 online is concerned, they are not just a flight simm and my best estimate is that their bread and butter will come from infantry and armor fans. If you think that EQ had close to 40,000 people online the other Friday - you can only imagine the possiblities.
So arguably, both companies can be successfull at the same time.
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I have talked to both groups makeing AH and WWIIonline. Heres is what I think WB is doomed by that lousy net they have in MCNC, WWIIonline is going to be a career I dont know how soon they will add new plane a vehicles and things but they are starting at the begining of the war and will add new things as the war progresses. Aces High does not compete against WWIIonline it is a total flight sim which most people want. I think you will probably wind up playing more then one game. I like AH better then WB and its still beta. For those of you who doubt HT can do better then WB then look and see who wrote that game in the first place. The people at Playnet say that HTC is doing what they like to do and having fun at it. Look around you might see ssome of them online sometime.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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Thunder,
wwIIonline will not be a "boss people around game". Yes there will be generals and high levels who make decisions but these are "system implementation" decisions.
e.g. A general decides he wants air support, and artillery support at a particular location so he tells the system to alocate more missions in that area. Result is when air/artillery people log on the "system" gives them missions to perform. Of course they don't have to carry out that mission but then again they won't get as many points.
The game will be focused around a roll playing system where the more points you get, the higher rank you get, the better equipment/machinery you get and upon reaching a high level you can start to influence the campaign.
From what I've seen everything will be somewhat automated so higher ups wont be yelling at people what to do.. the system will be assigning missions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This is actually one of the things I always wanted in WB or now AH. Some mechanism to assign organized missions for people to follow. Instead of the "Hey guys lets all attack f21" (and 95% of the people are like wtf like I want to listen to you.. or even when you do get interested people they get confused, don't know what to fly yadda yadda). Most of the work is actually organizing the darn missions.
If the system could somehow assign missions to people who ASK for missions e.g. you have been assigned to fly a p51 to defend an attack on f21. Then a person can either decide not to follow this and play as usual, or to follow it and get extra bonus points. Don't know it just seems like a better way to organize people who drop in and want to help out for a bit.
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I'm going to look at AH and WW2online and play them in beta. I'm enjoying AH right now.
I won't be making any decisions, however, until they go to pay for play.
Personally, I'm just glad this genre/era are getting some attention.
The more we have to choose from, the better!
Why argue about things that aren't even in final form yet? Let's just wait and see.