Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Jester on September 25, 2003, 07:46:34 PM
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THUNDER OVER THE REICH
This scenario represents the first really large raids deep into Germany by the Allies in Early 1943. Decent long range fighters where just starting to become availalble for the Allies to make
this possible.
ALLIES: (KNIGHTS)
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-51B
Mosquito
Lancaster
B-17
B-26
A-20G
C-47
M's
Ostie
Panzer IV
AXIS: (BISHOPS)
ME-109F
ME-109G-2
ME-109G-6
FW-190A5
ME-110G
C.202
C.205
JU-88
C-47
M's
Ostie
Panzer IV
SETTINGS:
Map: Big Week
Fuel Burn: 1.0
Ack Setting: .7 (CT Norm)
Downtimes:
Flak: 25 minutes
Hangars: 20 minutes
All Other Structures: 30 minutes
Troops to capture: 15 Troops
Radar: full friendly, 500 ft height - dot 25/bar 50
NOTES:
1. FIGHTER FIELDS IN ENGLAND ARE A1 - A6
BOMBER FIELDS IN ENGLAND ARE A7 - A15
2. Italian planes (C.202 & C.205) are available only from A27.
3. Fuel Burn has been increased to 1.3 - keep a sharp eye on your fuel if you want to get home. Remember the drop tanks!
4. All Heavy Bombers will be based in England. Only A-20, Mosquito & JU-88 bombers will be available from captured fields.
5. It will take 15 TROOPS to cature a field or base.
6. As this scenario represents the Strategic Bombing campaign deep into Germany none of the short range fighters like the Spitfire will be available.
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Nix P51B and then its fine - that one only entered action in very late 43.
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WHAAAAA!!!!
Where are the Spitfires!?
How dare you not give the Allies Spitfires!
Spitfires fought in every battle, (heck every dogfight for that matter), in the ETO
This sucks! (Grumble grumble)
Seriously, this sounds like a Great Match.
Looking forward to it.
eskimo
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Sweet! Im going love P38, P51, and P47 ;)
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Looks good Jester.
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Yea looks good but, give us 190-A8 so we can have atleast one bomber interceptor.
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4. As this scenario represents the Strategic Bombing campaign deep into Germany none of the short range fighters like the Spitfire will be available.
Ummm, the Spit 9 has a whole whopping 6 minutes less fuel then the Mossie which you included. Have to assume it is late in war since P51B is also included.
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Sssssssh jazz. :p
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Where is it??!?!!
Its 4pm already....cmon i want my g6!
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Originally posted by MajorDay
Sweet! Im going love P38, P51, and P47 ;)
me too - they make nice explosions :)
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Sorry for the delay in putting up the scenario - late night duty at the Fire House.
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Just curious Jester to why the 202 and 205 are in this set up? Did they have the Italian Air Force over Germany then? Thought they were mostly limited to the Med. Or is just a balance thing? I am sure that the comments will come after this post...
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AIRCRAFT:
SPITFIRE: It was left out because this scenario represents the deep bombing raids into Germany. Spitfires in real life did not have the range to fly deep into Germany. Usually they escorted out as far as the coast of France then picked the bomber stream back up as it came home. Long range stuff was left to Pony's, Juggs & Lightnings.
P-51B MUSTANG: I have added this as kind of "Freeby" for the British squad players for not including the Spit.
C.202 & 205: I have added these also for the Axis as I forgot Italy was also on this map. However they are available only from on field - A27.
FW-190A8: I have left this out as this version of the 190 didn't start production untill Dec. 1943 much less squadron service. I may enable it the last couple days to represent it coming on line.
P-38L LIGHTNING: This version is actually a 1944 bird also but I included it as it is the only Lighting we got. The J version would have been better to model - then we could use it for both PTO & ETO set-ups.
P-47D-11 THUNDERBOLT: I just enabled this version because of the time of my set up the "D" models werent even in combat yet. They were still flying the "C" model Juggs.
Compromises, Compromises....(sigh). Maybe one day we will have a better flock of a/c models to choose from.
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Jester I ran this setup myself.
The factory complexes have no small aaa so you may want to tweak the fuel mod so that the fighters wont be able to make it deep into germany and then low level rape the structures down.
There really arent a lot of fields so it may be a good idea to get rid of base capture. If the allies gain ground they will get close to the factories and just be able to fly in lo and kill them all.
If you want this to be about "bombing and bombers" then you will need to disable field capture and adjust the fuel mod accordingly.
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Originally posted by scJazz
Ummm, the Spit 9 has a whole whopping 6 minutes less fuel then the Mossie which you included. Have to assume it is late in war since P51B is also included.
That is only due to a bug in AH. Mossie Mk VIs had 1200 miles range on internal and 1800 miles with external fuel. More than twice the Spitfires range. In AH the Mossie's fuel consumption is twice or more than it should be.
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Having the P51B here is BS - especially so consideribg the reasons you excluded the A8 and included a P38 thats one year ahead. I dont buy the spit excuse, the P51B simply did not exist as a warplane until very late in 1943 - simple. Plus there was no comporable performance P51 serving before. There is no justification for it being in the setup.
As for the A8 the LW had the A6 model at this time which had the 4 20mm MG151 and could mount 30mm cannon as well. In fact it was prolly a better performer than the A8 because it was lighter.
The 47D11 and P38 are enough - the allies dont need the 40-50mph speed advantage of the P51.
Pleae remove P51B and add FW190A8. Get rid of C205.
Hoever feel free to give us a "freebie" 262 if you wanna leave out the A8... :)
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I accept with grun.
If allies get later planes than should, why we cant get one decent buff interceptor?
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you are worried about the p51b?
hardly anyone even flies the thing
put gonds on your 109 or take the fw up if you want to play with the bomber dweebs - otherwise just ignore them like the rest of us do
way better setup than the ack/flak filled room of the past 7 days :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
way better setup than the ack/flak filled room of the past 7 days :)
notice no fleets? and they say they *have* to have them in BoB setups?
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If ya take out the P-51B, ya still ought to leave out the 190A8. The LW has two fighters armed with 30mm tater guns...no need for another.
As to the P-38L......Jester plainly stated that he included it only because of the fact that we do not yet have the earlier model Lightning modelled in AH yet.
I swear, the concept of fairness and balance seems to be lost on some LW fans.
"Take away their better escorts, but give us a better interceptor" was what I got out of GRUN's post.
If this is intended to be a semi-realistic setup, then, yeah, the Pony-B should be excluded....unless he wants to do a RPS style progression of aircraft as the week goes by. THEN add the 190A8. But to take away the P-51B and in the same sentence ask for the 190A8......some folks just don't want an "edge", they want the whole deck stacked in their favor. When I fly, I won't be in a Pony, I'll be in a Jug, so taking away the Pony won't bother me in the least.
Excellent setup, Jester! Disregard ALL Axis complaints and run it!
If you sought to recreate an accurate atmosphere with this one, looks like you succeeded! :p
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axis is gonna kick butt
I just hope there are enough US target to go around :)
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hooray
on a different note, anything in the ETO prior to D-day should have base capture DISABLED!!!
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How is it not an allied edge to not only have fighters that did not exist as warplanes at that time that are 50mph faster? Like the 51B.
The A8 should be in there because they had the A6 at that time - it had the 4 mg151 armament and could mount 30mm cannon.
THE P51 WAS NOT ESCORTING ANYTHING OVER GERMANY IN EARLY 43. NOTHING. IT DID NOT EXIST - AND NO SIMILAR VARIANT of the P51 WAS DOING IT EITHER.
THE only thing A8 would add over a5 is better buff firepower and a few mph on the deck. All else is worse, turning, accel, climb, high alt speed.
Now compare that to the 51B which is much faster than all the allied fighters, turns better than 47, climbs better, accels better.
Why u need that? And it wasnt there in early 43, no variant of it merlin engined stang was.
Why not add the dora then, its the same thing as P51B in this setup. New engine and redesign for high alt capability over A series? In fact just like mustang B. And neither existed as warplanes in early 43.
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give RAF typh!
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Jester,
looks like a nice set up <>
thanks for taking the time...If others don't like it They can become CMs and do it the way they want to:eek:
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For those of you who like to complain and have no shane, I mean shame, I'd like to remind you that Jester is VOLUNTEERING his position for the Combat Theatre. His time, his hours. Not paid. Nada.
Comments like "This setup sucks" is like saying "HEY JESTER, FOURKE THE 5 HOURS YOU HAVE SPENT ON THIS SETUP, THE WEEK OF PLANNING, AND GO JUMP IN THE LAKE."
If you can't respect that, fly somewhere else and keep malicious comments to yourself.
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It is good setup, but hard to find decent fights when low numbers, but thats happens at every setup.
Thx for the A8 btw.
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mommy, mommy! make the bad man stop!
even CMs can make errors in judgement - this happens to be one that quite a few people agree with.
it *is* a scenario map, not suitable for arena play - BoB map would have been the better choice. it's not about the planes this time.
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smaller map vote here too pls
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I've got a couple of old versions of the BoB tile set lying around that would make it look like late autumn or winter if anyone wants to do a quick rebuild of one of those maps for this setup :)
BTW Jester I think this is a fun matchup overall!
Sqrl
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Jester hasn't said much since releasing the setup, but reading from the original post, he says it represents the long-range bombing raids of '43.
Just to pick up on what others have said ... that sort of thing might be dandy for a scenerio -- or even one or two organized 'mishuns' during the week on squadnights -- but for the rest of the week it's dullsville for a lot of folks who frequent the CT.
How can you have a "Strategic Bombing campaign" with strat turned off?
But mostly, the map's not conducive to a small population being able to find quick a2a COMBAT. It caters to the bomber pilots, primarily ... and those who like long, high-altitude, uneventful escort missions. Perhaps the kind of stuff we'll see in AH2 TOD?
I suppose we shouldn't begrudge them a setup once in a while.
Nice shot at an experiment to mix things up a bit ... but it misses the mark for the majority of CT regulars, I think. Just sayin'.
Splash1
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Jester great set up...thanks.
to a fellow smoke eater also.
I.A.F.F. Local 2676
Where is St. Charles at? Couldn't find it on the map.
Sorry for being off topic a little.
Robert
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Originally posted by Squirrel
BTW Jester I think this is a fun matchup overall!
Sqrl
Agreed. I was skeptical when I saw how far apart the bases were, but figured I'd give it the old college try. To my surprise, the distance factor encouraged real-life behavior: High altitude approach to the continent, low level return, close attention to fuel consumption.
The plane set, so far as I'm concerned, is one of the better ones we've had. From the Axis side I expected to see a lot of 51Bs, but I guess the weak guns encouraged people to fly the 47 - again, duplicating real life. Air-to-air, the 47 is clearly a match for the 109Gs and the FWs, but a close match.
The big flaw, as I see it, is that base capture is enabled. There just aren't enough bases on this map to permit that, in my very humble opinion. The problem is made worse by spill-over MA types, who I observed traveling far afield, porking fighter hangers so that the allies could Win the War. Result was Axis having to fly multiple sectors to get to the fight. Figure out some other objective that might attract bomber pilots (IS THERE any such alternate? What would you fluffers like to bomb instead of bases?)
On balance, I like this setup very much, and commend Jester for a clever approach.
- oldman
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lemme guess oldman, you flew basiclaly prime-time?
try flying off peak hrs... yaaaaaaaawwwwwnnnnnnn.
matchup good... map bad.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
The problem is made worse by spill-over MA types, who I observed traveling far afield, porking fighter hangers so that the allies could Win the War. Result was Axis having to fly multiple sectors to get to the fight. Figure out some other objective that might attract bomber pilots (IS THERE any such alternate? What would you fluffers like to bomb instead of bases?)
On balance, I like this setup very much, and commend Jester for a clever approach.
- oldman
I like the planeset, personally.
As far as your question goes- no, the bomber 'pilots' wouldn't bomb anything else even if it was available. They want to feel like they 'have an impact' on the game, so dropping the fighter hangars is the only way they can have that impact.
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i heard that USAAF squadrons in England started recieving P-51Bs in '44. Is that true?
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Originally posted by Shane
lemme guess oldman, you flew basiclaly prime-time?
try flying off peak hrs... yaaaaaaaawwwwwnnnnnnn.
matchup good... map bad.
You mean there's a CT map that's exciting during the off-peak hours? I mean for the guys that aren't milk/pork/risking.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
i heard that USAAF squadrons in England started recieving P-51Bs in '44. Is that true?
First operational mission of the 51Bs (a fighter sweep) was the 354th's mission of December 1, 1943. 354th was a 9th AF unit, temporarily loaned to the 8th AF. First escort mission was December 5, with the second on December 11, followed by missions on the 16th, 20th and January 5 and 11, 1944, and on the Bruswick mission at the end of January (the one that made Howard famous). So, basically, there was one (count them) group flying 51Bs through the end of January. In late January, the 9th AF traded a group's worth of 51s to the 8th, which gave them to the 357th FG, known thereafter as the Pioneer Mustang group. Their first mission was Febuary 11, 1944. The 8th started reequiping its 47 groups with 51s, but clearly up until late spring/early summer of 44 it was the 47 that was the main 8th AF fighter.
- oldman
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I think this was a good setup,yes the fields are far apart this was supposed tobe a bomber vs fighter setup I thought,
I spent most of sat. flying lanc and b17's flying to the industrial targets and bombing them unopposed I guess ppl dont want to take the time to climb up to intercept,hell i even announced my tgt over chan 1 and still noone even tried to intercept they were too busy trying to take fields,the more and more I think about it I think field capture has no purpose in the CT
But during prime time on a bombing run 3 brave souls tried to intercept me and met there fate but that was it,then I took some ju88's to england and man you would think i was in a perk plane everybody and his brother was attacking me.
I really think it comes down to ppl dont like to attack the big bombers due to the fact you spend 15-20 min climbing up to a bomber stream only to make some stupid rush 6 attack and get flamed
BTW sorry to here about jester leaving the CM team I wished I had the time for this I would like to give it a whril but Iam afraid would not have enough time to do the job effecitivly.
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Hey, key ... how ya doin?
Were there lots of axis folks on during your LD Lanc & Superfortress raids?
Personally, I've just gotten to where I leave the big bombers alone unless I have lots of friendly company. Particulary if all you're doing is bombing strat targets that have no relevance to the game.
1 fighter vs 30 .50s is a recipe for a trip to the tower, even without a stupid 6:00 attack.
Bombers are more trouble than their worth as targets, imho ... unless there's an organized mission going from both sides. That just doesn't happen in the CT 24/7 ... as already stated.
This setup will be kewl in the TOD, i'll wager .... but probably with a new state-of-the-art map.
The complaints about the setup on this board are grounded and fair, I think. A couple of "this sux" and "this blows" comments about the map, tempered by praise for the planeset .. and a couple of fact-supported pitches for planeset changes. Some positive comments, too. We've seen far worse during some PTO setups.
I Wasn't privy to the Friday night debacle, but if it was as bad as everyone lets on, that's a shame. As poor a choice as this setup is for the CT, it doesn't justify chasing someone away from a volunteer staff position.
Splash1
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doin fine, yup it was 16-5 in favor of axis thats why I upped allied bombers after my first unopposed trip (almost 1hr and 5min) I started to announce where I was going but noone seemed to care.after that it was 10 -1 axis with me being the only allied and still noone showed up to intercept,but later when the numbers evened up a bit a few tried.I was just playing the set up the way it was designed thats all no complaints here.
I dont think it really matters if i disrupt gameplay or not the object is to get to target bomb it and return safely.One thing for sure the ack was very heavy almost never came back with out damage.
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Originally posted by keyapaha
... the object is to get to target bomb it and return safely...
Understood. I'm all about everyone enjoying the game.
Just to elaborate a bit on my point, though. With only a handful of axis online (10-16 during primetime Saturday?), if you're not a threat, there's really very little incentive for me to climb up and intercept you, especially in B17x3 with its 1k forceshield.
If you were headed for HQ to kill dar, or if those factories really supplied something on this map ... then, yeah, you might have gotten some action.
(Not intended as a pitch for enabling strat, btw).
Anyway, good to see you getting some stick time in. Been missing those days in the 13th.
Splash1
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understood