Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sixpence on September 26, 2003, 11:20:55 AM
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http://www.boston.com/dailynews/269/wash/Census_reports_poverty_rate_up:.shtml
The poverty rate rose again after having fallen for nearly a decade to 11.3 percent in 2000, its lowest level in more than 25 years. Income levels increased through most of the 1990s, then were flat in 2000 and fell the last two years.
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Gee, I wonder if anything happened in 2001 that might depress an already flat economy from 2000.
Probably not. Must be Boosh.
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well I can say that I make about 20% less then I was making 3 years ago
I dont directly think it was the fault of bush.
the factors I see
Is the fall of the IT sector.
Outsoursing.
and 9/11
Btw I lost my job before 9/11
but i think it made it harder to find a new one.
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Well I will say I haven't gotten a raise in 2.5 years, the longest time in my career without one. Then I look at the fact that I get paid more than any other draftsman in this company by at least $3/hr. and I look at the fact that I know of NO draftsmen that make what I do in this field and I'm happy :)
Then I look at how much work we have lined up (over 2 years job security right now) and I think that this is civil work that I do so my projects are developments. We've got 2 subdivision projects right now, a car dealership, Several current and future city projects. Then I realize the economy is pretty freakin good here in Tx. Oh yeah that doesn't include the house plans I draw on the side. The building boom is still going here. It did stall for about a year but it's picking up steam again.
Then on the way home I see some pan handlers begging for money at a stop light. I look to my right at the store that has a sign on the door that says "HELP WANTED" and then I look at the bum again and shake my head in disbelief.
Oh yeah, and I just bought a new car yesterday :) Well it's a 2000 but it's cherry! Chevy Impala, jet black exterior with tan leather interior. The LE model so it's got all the bells and whistles :) The dealership I purchased it from was very busy as were the others I went to shop at.
In July we went on our company fishing trip to Rock Port, Tx. We stayed in a brand new hotel, it was opened the week before we got there. The place was huge, 6 floors and probably 100 rooms on each floor. It was full to capacity....
I go out driving on the weekend and there is traffic all over town. Now Austin does suck for traffic, but if you look at all the stores, they're packed with people shopping, and a lot of pan handlers too (guess they know where to go to get fed)
36 million people under the poverty level? Hmm that means roughly 200+ million people above the poverty level. Me thinks the 36 million did something wrong. They put their faith in something they shouldn't have or didn't save money. They did something wrong.
The economy isn't as bad as the media/dems portray it to be, at least not in Texas. I'd be willing to be though that in the next year it's going to get real bad, at least if you listen to the dems. ;)
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Okay toad, its been over 2 years its time to give up on the whole "9/11 is to blame for all of bush's problems".
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Okay toad, its been over 2 years its time to give up on the whole "9/11 is to blame for all of bush's problems".
Ok frogman it's been 20 something years, time to give up on the whole "I think I'm smart thing" :D
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once again attacking me and not the subject matter. Bravo!
I like your darwinistic aproach to human life udie, its very christian of you.
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gsholtz, just visit the states and go drive around the non suburb parts. The numbers sound right. But guess what the "average" income is increaseing! yAay.
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well gsholtz they obviously have done something wrong in their lives to get to that point. Like be born into a poor family, lost their jobs due to structural unemployement, or just be black.
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tryin to put the cart before the horse?
lets create the jobs THEN the economy will improve
psst it is from the '90's bubble burst
but elect a handsomehunkcrat in 04, have him raise taxes - that oughta fix it :rolleyes:
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Frogy and Gscholz,
Go up a couple of posts and read mine. And froggy, that wasn't a personal attack it was a joke hense the :D I usually don't post emoticons when I'm personaly attacking somebody ;) Besides, I'm not in a personal attacking mood today I'm too happy :D Got a new ride.
I'm off to the carpet store after work to get a pad for my parking spot at my apartment :D
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actually eagler, clack is promoting investment in the infrastructure. Not tax hikes. This isnt about the economy, its about the growing gap between the class's.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
well gsholtz they obviously have done something wrong in their lives to get to that point. Like be born into a poor family, lost their jobs due to structural unemployement, or just be black.
Or not go get a job, or not save money, or on drugs, or didn't move to where there are jobs, or didn't do a good job on the last one, or are just generaly lazy, or don't mind living in poverty because even our poor have their basic needs met (most of them anyway). Too many places that still need workers for that many people to be out of work.
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like i said before, thats a great christian outlook on poverty in your own country. A very uneducated view, but a christian one.
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Unfortunately I don't have time to spar today, I'm already over my lunch time. I don't think my view is Christian or what ever you want to call it, it's from looking at the environment around me and from looking at all the different industries that are employing the engineering firm I work for. Civil engineering doesn't get done if somebody isn't investing money, period. People don't invest millions of dollars into projects if they don't think they'll make those millions back, plus profit.
Do I think all of the unemployed did something wrong? Of course not, I'm sure mental illness plays a part with many of them. I'd be willing to bet though most did something wrong in their lives. BUT :D Most liberals I know wouldn't understand what I'm talking about because it has to do with personal responsibility.
that's all from me for a while, I'll try and pop in later and rebut ;)
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Growing gap between the classes, Frogman?
Bravo, I haven't heard it mentioned yet, and I agree with you.
If I read one more time how the AVERAGE single earner income is $60k I'm going to hurt someone til I find the people that make that.
I sure as hell don't, and I work a lot, AND make a good wage.
I THINK my wife and I together make $70k?
And that's with MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE overtime. I work 80+ hours a week, she works 60+.
I am a Teamster, drive 18wheeler, deliver beer.
She makes submarines. My little iron worker, heh heh.
Now, those two jobs right there are prime, aren't they?
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The reason why my family does not believe in the darwinistic approach to economics has alot to do with what happened to them in the 1930s.
Family used to have a huge farm out in washington state, depression hit, lost farm to bank because a small load couldnt be paid. lost thousands of acres and cattle. Spent the next 6-7 years living in the gutter(no exageration) till FDR started investing in the infrastructure out west, which in turn created jobs. building dams roads etc.(employee's of boeing can thank the democrats, and yes your welcome) .
**** happens, and if you say worked in a factory that closed down and moved to mexico. Would you move halfway across the country leaving your family behind to work for 3 dollars less an hour putting up drywall udie?
I guess thats where facists and I differ. I think everyone has the potential to do well if given a fair chance. And thats why i believe in free college education and health care for anyone that wants to get it. Not the strong shall survive mentality of a nazi.
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GScholtz, you have nothing to gloat over, our system works fine. The poverty level doesn't count government assistance money. People who fall below the poverty line qualify for food and rent subsidies. Most poor people in America own cars, color tv's, etc. Many even own homes. If US poverty standards were applied to your country, probably 30% would fall below the poverty line. Our poor people are fatter than our rich people, is that true in your utopia?
ra
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of course RA, but they are massivly in debt as well. Dont forget that. Oh and you would rather them have absolutely no government assistance. then we could watch them starve to death GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Udie, you say these people did something wrong. I can buy that, but how can you as a society accept that more than 10% of your population suffer such consequences for their mistakes? Sure, people make mistakes here too as they inevitably do anywhere, but we don't just sit idly by and watch them suffer in poverty. Not one single individual in this country has so little money to make a living as that report stated. Less than $14,480 a year for a family of three? You got to be kidding me?! I simply can't understand how you as a society can let this happen, knowingly, and do nothing.
I'm going to get fired if I get caught! Here's the way I look at it. If I feed a man a fish he's no longer hungry. If I teach him to fish I've fed him for a lifetime. That's the Christian model, and I buy in to it. We don't sit by and watch them starve. I'd venture to say that the poverty level (lifestyle) here in the US is 10 fold better than it is anywhere else in the world. How many poor people do you know that have 3 tv's and a car? I know a few..... There are Federal, State and Local programs for the poor out the yazoo! If I were poor? I'd go join the peace corps or freedom corps or army or 7-11. I'd do just about anything to get back above the poverty level.
If a family is only making 14k a year there is something wrong with them. You can go cut lawns and make 40k a year, if you're willing to bust arse. I know I watched my dad do it in the early 80's when Houston was hurting. I can make 40k next year by coming and doing my job. I can make close to 100k next year if I "moonlite" and do houseplans on the side. It all depends on how lazy I'll be or not. Point is, it's up to me to decide. So if I bust my hump 9 hours a day at work and then another 4 hours at night at home and earn a lot of money do you think I'm going to be happy with giving it to some lazy vagrant who's to stupid to go get a job flipping burgers or cutting grass or anything that would make money? I can tell you with a resounding NO that wouldn't make me happy. And I'd be right because I'm an American and it's my right, at least for a little while longer anyway.
I have to add. Every so often I feel guilty about the guys standing on the corner begging (2 or 3 times a year usually). So I'll give in and "donate" 10 or 20 bucks. I can count on one finger how many times I've been thanked. It's the same with tax money, they demand more for this stuff and do nothing about it. The people (ie. bums) don't thank anybody, they feel they are entitled, that's BS. What would you do if I came into your house and started eating your food and sleeping with your wife? Prolly about the same as I feel about my hard earned cash.
i gotta go.....
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actually udie it isnt the christian outlook. I was being sarcastic. Your not a true christian, but someone that follows a religion because he is scared what will happen when he dies.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
of course RA, but they are massivly in debt as well. Dont forget that. Oh and you would rather them have absolutely no government assistance. then we could watch them starve to death GOD BLESS AMERICA!
only half as the other half would eat them :)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
**** happens, and if you say worked in a factory that closed down and moved to mexico. Would you move halfway across the country leaving your family behind to work for 3 dollars less an hour putting up drywall udie?
You know what? If that's what I had to do for my family to survive, you betcha. I'd flip burgers if I had to (done it!) I'd do what ever it took to make sure my family was fed and housed.
I guess thats where facists and I differ. I think everyone has the potential to do well if given a fair chance. And thats why i believe in free college education and health care for anyone that wants to get it. Not the strong shall survive mentality of a nazi.
oh now see there you go you silly communist. You expect to be taken seriously calling me a facist and a nazi? Ignorant child, the nazi's were socialist, that make them closer to the dems not the republicans. One day you'll grow up (maybe) and understand.
and about your fair chance. I had the same chance as anybody else. I'm a high school and college drop out. I function on an 8th or 9th grade education level. I do engineering work. I bust my hump. I started with NOTHING and now I have $50k in debts :D I'm living the American dream and I'm doing it mostly on my own terms. You're ilk are too worried about blaming some one or something else for your problems instead of looking at the source and learning from mistakes and correcting them and GETTING ON WITH LIFE. Understand any of that?
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udie nazi's were not socialist. Just because it was in the name does not believe they had socialist values. They believe in a pure strong shall survive society. Go read a book.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
gsholtz, just visit the states and go drive around the non suburb parts. The numbers sound right. But guess what the "average" income is increaseing! yAay.
so you
can just drive thru a neighborhood and tell who is poor and who is not?
profiler
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
of course RA, but they are massivly in debt as well. Dont forget that. Oh and you would rather them have absolutely no government assistance. then we could watch them starve to death GOD BLESS AMERICA!
I'd like to hear your explaination as to how poor people get in debt, nobody lends money to them.
As far as government assistance, it should only go to the physically or mentally handicapped. You would qualify.
ra
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
udie nazi's were not socialist. Just because it was in the name does not believe they had socialist values. They believe in a pure strong shall survive society. Go read a book.
go get a job and support yourself - let your parents off the hook -sonny :)
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Originally posted by Krusher
so you
can just drive thru a neighborhood and tell who is poor and who is not?
profiler
you dont even need to drive through the nieghborhood. just point it out on the map.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
actually udie it isnt the christian outlook. I was being sarcastic. Your not a true christian, but someone that follows a religion because he is scared what will happen when he dies.
I am? :confused: Gee I didn't realized I'd known you my whole life. Son, you know nothing about who I am and how I got to be who I am. You're still young and full of yourself so I can understand your ignorance. I just hope you don't let your ignorance foster into true stupidity, i fear it may be too late for you though.
Lizking has you pegged though, you are definitely a child.
NOW I REALLY HAVE TO GO!!!!
IT's been fun :D I think it will be more fun at home tonight when I read this thread and see how badly you're about to get pWn3d :D
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ahh i see you have no idea how close your beliefs are to facism then udie. I understand mine are rooted in socialist values.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
you dont even need to drive through the nieghborhood. just point it out on the map.
so how does it feel to judge people by the place they live?
profiler
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you supply side guys will love this:
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html
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Originally posted by Krusher
so how does it feel to judge people by the place they live?
profiler
I dont judge them, i just know they live in poverty. Of course i could but a bag over my head and live in denile but im not ripsnorts wife.
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Why would anyone argue politics with frogboy? Either he hasn't the slightest clue what he's saying or he does and he's saying it anyway just to piss people off. Oh well.. it works pretty well on Udie (but he's on meds).
MiniD
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damn you mini d stop letting them know my real motives.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
once again attacking me and not the subject matter. Bravo!
This is the best quote of the whole thread, it says so much.
MiniD,
:mad: :mad: I'M NOT ON MEDS :mad: :mad:
:eek: :lol :rofl :cool: :p
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oh i never said i dont attack people personally, i just make sure i back it up with attacks on the issue as well.
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One little thing you forgot to say. It found was during the cences that they found poverty up. Let's see, who was President then? Can you say Clinton? I knew you could.
I can see where you thought it was Bush's fault. The stat's was release during his time in office. But it was taken before he was elected to it. So it was going up before he took office.
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i guess you didnt read the part that it was falling. and used to be higher the 11 percent.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
i guess you didnt read the part that it was falling. and used to be higher the 11 percent.
No he probably read what you called the thread (in a dishonest manner no less) Poverty up during Bush
liars and the liars who tell them :rofl
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The US poverty rate measures only income, not assets or most subsidies. You could have $1 million in assets and fall below the poverty line if you have little income.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Could you elaborate a bit on this, I may have been mistaken earlier. What is the definition of "poor" in the US? If this person you know has 3 tv's and a car, how is he poor? I don't know any poor people ... we have none here. If "poor" is based just on income (is that what you mean?) then I guess I'm poor. I got laid off 6 months ago, but I do have a car, a tv, three computers and an apartment + about $22,000 a year. We have "bums" too, and drug addicts, but they don't live on the street. This is a vital service in my country, we simply cannot accept people being homeless ... unless we are prepared to collect their frozen bodies come winter. Unfortunately we now have a growing problem of illegal immigrants who (for obvious reasons) are afraid to get help from the state, but I have yet to hear about anyone freezing to death in our streets. In my town no one is homeless, everyone has housing guaranteed by the state, and de-tox programs ... if you want it.
We have the same stuff here, only most of it isn't run by the government, though alot of it is subsidised by the gov. A lot of people here simply don't know about it or are too lazy to go get the help, because then they may have to stop doing the drugs, booze that got them where they're at.
I should say also, just so you don't think I'm a nazi too, If a person CAN"T work because of physical or mental problems I have no problem helping them, and that does encompass a large part of our homeless. I've just known too many (met a few in rehab last year too) homeless or "poor" to know diferent. They get tired of being homeless and they will do ANYTHING to not be homeless. That usually entails work. Anybody here can always go get a bed at the YMCA or the Salvation Army or AA. There are hundreds upon hundreds of privately run shelters.
Where do you get the 22k a year? The gov? Who pays them the money? If that's the way your system is set up good on you. If everybody there likes that system, then even better on you. Here, 50% hate it. I wouldn't actually mind it if it weren't for all the fraud. But how can I be free or have liberty if they take 30% of my money every 2 weeks? I mean if I say no, they say "too bad, anti up or go to jail"
WTF is that? Where is that in our constitution?
My point of the post your quoted was that if there's a will, there is a way to get ahead in life. I know, i've been there. More than once too. It probably wouldn't take much to put me back there either. BUT, I don't want to be there so I bust arse.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
ahh i see you have no idea how close your beliefs are to facism then udie. I understand mine are rooted in socialist values.
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If you put all the vagrants and "bums" together it would make up less than .005% of the people living in poverty. It's the working poor that make up the majority. Where I live most people must drive at least 60 miles for a job with a decent ($10 hr +) wage. Factor in the gas you burn to get to and from the job and you are just making ends meet. It's the Uber-Rich CEO's that get millions when they are fired for incompetence as part of their severance that does not help the economic figures. That alone throws any "average wage" figure out the window.
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lets see some facts to back up your arguement udie. you keep saying that i have no idea what im talking about. Well prove me wrong. Show some FACTS.
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Originally posted by rpm371
If you put all the vagrants and "bums" together it would make up less than .005% of the people living in poverty. It's the working poor that make up the majority. Where I live most people must drive at least 60 miles for a job with a decent ($10 hr +) wage. Factor in the gas you burn to get to and from the job and you are just making ends meet. It's the Uber-Rich CEO's that get millions when they are fired for incompetence as part of their severance that does not help the economic figures. That alone throws any "average wage" figure out the window.
No, I said I just call what I see. $10/hr sux. I must be rich :confused: Sure don't feel like it.
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poverty in america aint so bad ;)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
actually eagler, clack is promoting investment in the infrastructure. Not tax hikes. This isnt about the economy, its about the growing gap between the class's.
please stop....you can't possibly be serious.
Anyone who believes that growth in the 90's was due to Clinton, that the 90's growth was going to be free of a correction(I know you guys believe Bill defeated the business cycle) and that Bush is to blame for a natural correction along with 9-11 not impacting the current economy, is either so partisan it's laughable or is simple-minded.
You guys must be in your twenties.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I think this only proves that statistics means nothing (as usual). How many people are actually poor in your country?
Anyways, I am very pleased with our system, although there are things I'd like changed or modified a bit on the taxation side in particular, but I guess it's like that in every country. What I like most about our system is that whatever should befall me I know that my society will take care of me (like it did 6 months ago when I lost my job). I know that I will always have a roof over my head and food on my table. If I should get ill I know that my medical needs will be taken care of. I know that when I grow old, no matter what happens, I have at least a minimum pension guaranteed by the state, and if/when I get to frail to take care of myself my society will. If I have kids in the future (hope so ;) I know they will get a good education no matter how much me and my spouse earn. I think this is a great freedom to be able to pursue a meaningful life without having to worry about the future. Low taxes and inexpensive cars are a luxury I am willing to forgo to have that freedom.
I have no clue how many poor people there are here in America. Probably less than the dems say and more than the Reps say. I have had surgery 3 times in my life. Only paid for it once. I've never been turned away from ANY emergency room. I will always have a roof over my head, even if I'm homeless there are places to go get help, many more than the dems would have you know. When I get old I'll get to take back my money from the Ponzy scheme that is Social Security, though I could make that money go alot further if they'd let me (that's the main thing that makes me a conservative too - in America, I don't have the freedom to do as I wish with the money I earned. I understand we have to pay taxes, but they just waste it, millions at a time. Maybe you're lucky in your country and you can actually trust your gov, we can't here.
Now free college would be nice, BUT :D There are PLENTY of ways to get funding for school. I went through 2.5 years of college and didn't spend a dime of my own money on it. Did it with Pale grants. There were many many many other "private" grants too. A person can go through college with grants and no loans, they just have to be wily enough to look for them.
Socialism would be fantastic! If I could just trust the people who are elected to control it, they do a piss poor job at it.....
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Originally posted by Yeager
poverty in america aint so bad ;)
A recent CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/08/60II/main535732.shtml) story.
But in Ohio, the lines continue to grow. In the first three months of this year, the lines jumped by nearly 20 percent with over 200,000 more families standing in line for food.
p.s. Nice of you to think of your fellow man, Yeager.
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Originally posted by rpm371
A recent CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/08/60II/main535732.shtml) story.
p.s. Nice of you to think of your fellow man, Yeager.
Nice of you to continue telling us the sky is falling....very predictable
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Originally posted by Eagler
psst it is from the '90's bubble burst
This is the funniest thing that contiuously spurts forth from the righty tighties. The longest economic upswing in our Nations history was in fact just a set up for this mini recession. That bastard Clinton only let the "bubble" grow for 8 years just to make himself look good. That darn economic "bubble" should never be allowed to happen again!!
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Originally posted by Rude
Nice of you to continue telling us the sky is falling....very predictable
I suppose we should just look the other way....nothing to see here....move along. Try reading the article.
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do you honestly think he'd been re-elected if he had today's economy in '96?
I mean with his track record to that date ... hmmm?
slick had nothing to do with the rise of the bubble (it would have happened if the white house was empty - the course was set by previous admins) as bush had nothing to do with the fall of the correction but bush has put in place, steps for a recovery the dems of 04 want to remove
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This is the funniest thing that contiuously spurts forth from the righty tighties. The longest economic upswing in our Nations history was in fact just a set up for this mini recession. That bastard Clinton only let the "bubble" grow for 8 years just to make himself look good. That darn economic "bubble" should never be allowed to happen again!!
Investing in Dutch Tulips lately? Maybe buy Gold at 800 / oz? How about follow the Hunt Bros into silver?
I know, let's invest in Pets.com, lets-give-away-music-and-not-have-any-possible-chance-of-positive-cash-flow.com (napster) or *anything*.com that has no assets and a stock value of 100 Billion....
Naw, the tech bubble didn't happen.... And bubbles never happened in the history of the western world.....
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I knew napster was behind it.
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Everything will be blamed on Clinton and 9/11, until a Democrat President is elected.
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Come on now, I just blamed everything on Napster and Pets.com...
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Everything will be blamed on Clinton and 9/11, until a Democrat President is elected.
yes, as the new ills he/she creates will trivialize the past ones ...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Could you elaborate a bit on this,
GSHoltz,
In the US the state provides free meals to school children, free medical care, free post secondary education, free heat and food, free diapers, subsidized housing and probably a lot that I am unaware of. You only have to meet certain low income standards, some of which are actually above these poverty standards.
Most homeless here simply choose that lifestyle and refuse to go to shelters that are available. Many are mentally unstable and unless they pose a danger to themselves or to others, the state cannot force them into shelters.
For example, there is not a child in this country that doesn't have access to health care, as some politicians would have you believe.
Many of these stories concerning our economy are published with only enough facts to support certain political ideologies.
BTW, I'm third generation Norwegian.(actually 1/2) :)
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Originally posted by sonostudmuffinun
Many of these stories concerning our economy are published with only enough facts to support certain political ideologies. [/B]
They made it up, yeah, that's the ticket
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Originally posted by Rude
and that Bush is to blame for a natural correction along with 9-11 not impacting the current economy, is either so partisan it's laughable or is simple-minded.
You guys must be in your twenties.
So you say if 9/11 didn't happen he would have more of a chance to be elected? I think the opposite, and i'm in my thirties
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Originally posted by rpm371
I suppose we should just look the other way....nothing to see here....move along. Try reading the article.
There have and always will be poor folks....unemployed as well. Have you ever served these people yourself personally? I mean right in their face, holding their hand and actually helping with your time and money? I have....so don't preach to me about reading your articles.
Posting this crap like it is Bush's fault is a lie. You want the truth? It's all of our faults....if we actually did something to help our neighbors, that alone would begin to change our country....guess it's easier to post on a computer during an election season?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
They made it up, yeah, that's the ticket
I probably shouldn't respond to this, your oversight being so blatantly obvious. I said facts, not "make it up."
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This is the funniest thing that contiuously spurts forth from the righty tighties. The longest economic upswing in our Nations history was in fact just a set up for this mini recession. That bastard Clinton only let the "bubble" grow for 8 years just to make himself look good. That darn economic "bubble" should never be allowed to happen again!!
C'mon MT....are you fishin?
You seriously don't believe Clinton brought on the growth in the 90's do you?
Much of the upswing was due to artificial growth...p/e's were so lopsided that companies trading at $200 on the Nasdaq, never turned a profit....hitech brought the highest rate of productivity ever seen in the US economy...cell phones and laptops alone contributed to this never before seen growth.
That's just a small part of what brought us that growth....the conditions in the late 80's are relevant as well. The business cycle was not defeated as Bill told us....I remember laughing out loud when I heard him say that.
What do you do for a living....just curious as to your knowledge base regarding this topic.
I develope and build shopping centers and office buildings....we own a bank...we're very connected to what makes the economy go or slow.
If you believe that Clinton or Bush are relevant to our economy on any scale larger than simple climate, then you are deceived.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Anyways, I am very pleased with our system...
It's good that you are pleased with it, as you have no choice in the matter. There a saying that goes something like "someone who trades freedom for security usually ends up with neither". Let's hope the socialist systems of Europe can provide both.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
It's good that you are pleased with it, as you have no choice in the matter. There a saying that goes something like "someone who trades freedom for security usually ends up with neither". Let's hope the socialist systems of Europe can provide both.
ra
how secure are they? Seriously. What if we weren't over there and Russia said "Game on" what would they do?
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If it is ok to blame Clinton for this or that, is it not fair to blame Bush too? The goose and the gander thing. Clinton had nothing to do with an economy, yet Bush has a plan to fix a bad economy. And if the economy rebounds, you will say it was Bush's plan. If that is true, can it be said that Clinton fixed an economy because it got better as him as pres?
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Originally posted by Rude
C'mon MT....are you fishin?
You seriously don't believe Clinton brought on the growth in the 90's do you?
Much of the upswing was due to artificial growth...p/e's were so lopsided that companies trading at $200 on the Nasdaq, never turned a profit....hitech brought the highest rate of productivity ever seen in the US economy...cell phones and laptops alone contributed to this never before seen growth.
That's just a small part of what brought us that growth....the conditions in the late 80's are relevant as well. The business cycle was not defeated as Bill told us....I remember laughing out loud when I heard him say that.
What do you do for a living....just curious as to your knowledge base regarding this topic.
I develope and build shopping centers and office buildings....we own a bank...we're very connected to what makes the economy go or slow.
If you believe that Clinton or Bush are relevant to our economy on any scale larger than simple climate, then you are deceived.
Not giving Clinton credit, just laughing at the finger pointing at him for the current problems. Economics run in cycles... We had a great big long upswing in the 90's. It wasn't a bad thing.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
well gsholtz they obviously have done something wrong in their lives to get to that point. Like be born into a poor family, lost their jobs due to structural unemployement, or just be black.
BULLCHIT or just be born black!:mad:
Thats a load of chit.
OH lordi eyes b borne black and the whole world is a pickin on po little ol me.
Please black americans have all the chances at an education that anyone else has they have to WANT it!
Maybe the nieborhood and classroom aint as nice as the suburbs but the education is there.
And as far as the suburbs go you have to earn the right to live there by educating yourself so you can obtain a job that will pay for that lifesyle!
Look one of the people in history I admire the most is DR. Martin Luther King.
But the day of the world owes me because my great grand daddy picked cotton is OVER.
Heck My Grandfather picked cotton SO WHAT!!
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it is said that the average american in poverty owns a house, a car and two TVs. .........and is far better off than the vast majority of people elsewhere on this planet. whether its true or not, I dont know.
I dont do much to give to the needy. Im pretty certain my local, state and federal government, taking about %40 of my earnings combined are doing that for me. Or at least thats what they say.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
ahh i see you have no idea how close your beliefs are to facism then udie. I understand mine are rooted in socialist values.
Maybe you should move to a socialist country:D
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What freedom have I given up? And I do have a choise in the matter. We are a democracy you know.
You personally haven't given up any freedom, it was surrendered before you were born. You are not free to opt out of the socialistic system and keep more of the money you earn, those decisions have been made for you. No amount of democracy will reverse the government's control over most of the economy. You say that the government's guarantees make you free, but aren't you then in fact almost completely dependant upon the government? That is not the definition of freedom as I know it.
Even in the US, where we are much less socialistic, we hear government bureaucrats say, in effect, "don't rock the boat or we won't be able to provide you with ". Correct me if I am wrong, but I would guess that in a country where the government guarantees healthcare, education, and retirement for everyone, those kind of words have a big impact. That is not freedom, it's serfdom.
ra
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Originally posted by Rude
There have and always will be poor folks....unemployed as well. Have you ever served these people yourself personally? I mean right in their face, holding their hand and actually helping with your time and money? I have....so don't preach to me about reading your articles.
Have I served them personally? Yes I have. I help load food into their cars, shopping carts or whatever they bring to the North Texas Food Bank in Ft.Worth. I have accepted donations for Mission Arlington and personally delivered beds and furnishings to apartments that were donated to impoverished people and battered women.
The reason I wanted you to read the article is that you obviously shot it down without reading it. I saw the story on 60 Minuites-II and it does not try to slant WHO is to blame, but WHO is suffering. When someone has to cut a gallon of milk with a gallon of water just so their infant can have enough to last until the next food line, we as decent human beings need to get off our high horse and help. Most of these people are not unemployed, they are under-employed. Making $7.50 an hour at Home Depot or Wal-Mart because it is the only job available is the reason these "bums" and "welfare mothers" are standing in the food lines. We need more jobs with decent wages and less CEO's taking $20-30 Million home when they are fired.
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accidental double post
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So can we cut the price supports out of milk?
That'd take care of the other half.
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there is a great lack of sympathy and understanding from many in the US who are quite comfortable in the middle and upper class. Our society rewards and reveres greed and selfishness. It is far easier to assume that the poor dont really have it that bad and that all they have to do is "want" to go to college and get a good job.
throughout this entire discussion there has not been one mention of the simple fact that 3/5 of the poor people in this country are CHILDREN.
the truest test of the morality of a society is what it leaves to the next generation. In the US our "leadership" (and I mean EVERY administration and congress since WW2) has chosen to leave huge deficits to the next generations, be it in the form of national debt, foreign debt, social security trust, etc.
Both Bush2 and Clinton fail this test, as we should have been socking money into the social security trust for the ~80 million boomers who will retire in 10 years (Clinton) and the ridiculous tax cut for the wealthy that is bush2's answer to every economic problem - which has put us right back in the red and will be a burden on our children.
the sad fact is that our culture is more like a spoiled 5 year old than a mature adult in that unless we are instantly gratified we are not interested (these are broad statements here of course, YMMV). we are no willing to make hard, real, substantive choices, but would rather stick our collective heads in the sand and wait for the f'in prom
It is those without a voice, the children, who suffer most, as the majority of the poor in this country and in the sense that we are passing on our debts to them.
In stark contrast to the greatest generation that we so revere, we are probably in the mot shameful period of our national history.
so instead of the glitz and glamour of tax cuts, we should be making our nation financially sound and providing for those americans who need protection the most, our children.
shame on us, and our nation of selfish fools
strk
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Woohoo!
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strk, you are a moron. You should be in the Democratic presidential race.
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Just for grins and a minor clue, take a look at the 5 year stock market graph and then puzzle a while on how this correlates with the overall economy and the "poverty level".
You might notice a dip in the chart Sept. 2001 that hasn't fully recovered yet.
But, hey, Blame it on Boooooooosh. Looks like that's about as deep as you get.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I do not see it that way. You pay taxes too, and you have no say in it except for your democratic vote. The only difference I can see is how much you pay and how much society provides for you. You say you are freer? How so? You too will be jailed if you refuse to pay taxes. The only choice you have is how to use your vote.
Yes, we pay taxes and we have little say over what the politicians waste our money on. But because our government makes fewer permanent commitments than a more socialistic government, we are freer. The guarantees you are comfortable with come at the price of permanent revokation of your control over most of your income. If the world economy goes bad and your government has a hard time paying for all the guarantees they have made, you, as an individual, will have no option but to turn to the same government for a solution. Socialist policies work very very well until they stop working. Then everyone is hosed.
People like to say that capitalism is based on greed and selfishness, but I can't imagine anything more greedy and selfish than demanding that your basic economic needs be guaranteed by your fellow citizen from cradle to grave. My basic rights cost my fellow citizen nothing at all.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
People like to say that capitalism is based on greed and selfishness, but I can't imagine anything more greedy and selfish than demanding that your basic economic needs be guaranteed by your fellow citizen from cradle to grave. My basic rights cost my fellow citizen nothing at all.
ra
RA people will not understand unless they are Americans:D
Thats what makes us different and in my opinion better.
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**** ****** ********* **** **** ******** ******
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Not giving Clinton credit, just laughing at the finger pointing at him for the current problems. Economics run in cycles... We had a great big long upswing in the 90's. It wasn't a bad thing.
I agree....and be certain, I won't give credit to Bush for an economic recovery....however, our defense and the war in Iraq he will be held accountable.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Have I served them personally? Yes I have. I help load food into their cars, shopping carts or whatever they bring to the North Texas Food Bank in Ft.Worth. I have accepted donations for Mission Arlington and personally delivered beds and furnishings to apartments that were donated to impoverished people and battered women.
The reason I wanted you to read the article is that you obviously shot it down without reading it. I saw the story on 60 Minuites-II and it does not try to slant WHO is to blame, but WHO is suffering. When someone has to cut a gallon of milk with a gallon of water just so their infant can have enough to last until the next food line, we as decent human beings need to get off our high horse and help. Most of these people are not unemployed, they are under-employed. Making $7.50 an hour at Home Depot or Wal-Mart because it is the only job available is the reason these "bums" and "welfare mothers" are standing in the food lines. We need more jobs with decent wages and less CEO's taking $20-30 Million home when they are fired.
I agree.....it just seemed to me you were blaming Bush for something that is old as dirt....poverty.
My apology.
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LOOK on the bright side we could have these guys running our country:D (http://home.comcast.net/~c.hambleton/wsb/media/134502/site1025.jpg)
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Originally posted by ra
strk, you are a moron. You should be in the Democratic presidential race.
That the best you can come up with? You should be in the republican presidential race.
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hell...morons arent so bad. there are good morons I think. at least morons that mean well.
We are all morons to some extent, at some point in our lives. You know, like when we should have pulled but pushed instead.
Stuff like that......
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Originally posted by Sixpence
quote:
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Originally posted by ra
strk, you are a moron. You should be in the Democratic presidential race.
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That the best you can come up with? You should be in the republican presidential race.That the best you can come up with? You should be in the republican presidential race.
You two should get a room and study Carlson's list of insults... together.
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Hey, stop double quoting me!
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if you want to see poor people come to south east texas.
lots of shacks and people who still hunt some ( or poach as republicans put it ) people dont go to free doctors because they dont have ****in cars. ect ect ect
the rich folks run america and run the place to keep themselves rich and allow enough upward mobility ( if you follow the rules) to keep the 80 hour a week drones chaseing the carrot on the stick that is do nothing wealth. i work with two people who dont have medical care despite the fact they they work full time jobs. one is epileptic the other has hepatitis from old carrier as a nurse. (now she makes minumum with no benifits workin for NBC affiliate as a cameraman 30 hours 5 days a week she is sick and it affects you mind) same for the dude with epilepsy he has fits at work and they dont do **** but call and ambulance and threaten to fire him.
i could go on for hours and hours about situations they would make you angry for blood right here in the good old usa with people who go to work every day ( bleeding broken and infectious) because the rich want to be richer.
quite frankly socialism sounds great to me. i saw alot of europe and envy the hell out of them.
a republican is a man who will tell you strait faced your horse will run better if you cut a leg off it to save weight. their theorys on economy are exactly the same.
can politician after politician till the little man is healthy enough to work.
sorry im pissed dude had another fit at work and i want to kill someone. he deserves better.
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strk, you are a moron. You should be in the Democratic presidential race.
lol ra coming from you that means . . . . . nothing.
since youre only response is an adhominem attack let me respond in kind. You are probably the biggest idiot posting on these boards, and that says a lot.
werent you the one saying that poor people are fat, so they must have it easy? lol your arguments demonstrate tht you have the intellectual depth of a 12 year old.
Did you ever serve your country ra? Have you ever done anything that didnt serve your selfish petty self centered interests? I would venture a guess that the answer is "absolutely not"
so shut up, stupid. What you say doenst mean jack to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Continue your pathetic existence wrapped up in your own little disneyland world and wait for your republican masters to tell you what to think. You are a slave who is too stuid too see his own chains.
they say that God looks after children and fools. being both, I suppose you are doubly blessed. FU
strk
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Matthew, Chapter 26
26:11
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
Seems things haven't changed much, eh?
Any of you folks notice that there were poor people even BEFORE there was a Republican or Democratic party?
Any of you folks notice that during what might be considered the poorest time in American History.. the Great Depression... FDR was the President and he was a Democrat?
Any of you think it may be just a teensy-weensy bit more complex than which party holds the Presidency?
Uh... no... I guess you folks let all that slip by you while busily hurling slings, barbs and ad hominems all about the place.
Once more, in hopes that it might get through:
14:7
For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
So, what did YOU do for them today?
Or were you waiting for some particular political party to solve every problem in the world?
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Matthew was a Republican..
25:
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Originally posted by Toad
Seems things haven't changed much, eh?
Any of you folks notice that there were poor people even BEFORE there was a Republican or Democratic party?
Any of you folks notice that during what might be considered the poorest time in American History.. the Great Depression... FDR was the President and he was a Democrat?
From whitehouse.gov:
Hoover became the Republican Presidential nominee in 1928. He said then: "We in America today are nearer to the final triumph over poverty than ever before in the history of any land." His election seemed to ensure prosperity. Yet within months the stock market crashed, and the Nation spiraled downward into depression.
After the crash Hoover announced that while he would keep the Federal budget balanced, he would cut taxes and expand public works spending.
Sound familiar?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bush seems to have taken some pages out of Hoovers play book.
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I have said before and will say it again.
America needs to take care of America before we spend bilions on everybody else.
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Originally posted by k2cok
From whitehouse.gov:
Hoover became the Republican Presidential nominee in 1928. He said then: "We in America today are nearer to the final triumph over poverty than ever before in the history of any land." His election seemed to ensure prosperity. Yet within months the stock market crashed, and the Nation spiraled downward into depression.
After the crash Hoover announced that while he would keep the Federal budget balanced, he would cut taxes and expand public works spending.
Sound familiar?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bush seems to have taken some pages out of Hoovers play book.
Dude.. if you think we're anywhere near a friggin depression, you've got issues.
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Originally posted by k2cok
Bush seems to have taken some pages out of Hoovers play book.
Cod, I love documented history!
Actually, FDR took some pages out of Hoover's play book. You know, FDR... that Democrat guy that everyone loves? Well, he expanded upon Hoover's (you know, that Republican guy?) ideas.
Short version:
President Hoover's Philosophies
Hoover believed that the depression was caused by problems other than the U.S. economy, and that these problems were beyond U.S. control. He also believed that the key to recovery was confidence in the economy. Factories and businesses tried to maintain confidence, and even as they shut down, Hoover continued to insist that recovery was on its way.
Hoover believed that keeping high and steady wages for workers would bring recovery. He called together many business leaders and got their promise on keeping workers wages reasonable and steady. They held their part of the agreement for a few months, but they soon started to drop wages. Many Americans blamed Hoover s passive attitude for the Great Depression.
Feeling the pressure, Hoover finally began to act. The government, in an effort to create more jobs, built new public buildings, roads, parks, and dams. A Presidents Emergency Committee on Employment advised local relief programs. The Hawley-Smoot tariff was passed by Congress in 1930 to protect domestic industries from foreign competitors.
However, these tariffs backfired European nations countered the tariffs by increasing their tariffs on American goods. In 1932, Hoover set up the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC), which gave government credit to banks so that they could extend loans to clients. Many people felt that this measure did more to bring prosperity to the bankers rather than to the ordinary citizens.
Hoovers efforts were not effective enough. He wanted the state and local governments to handle recovery, but unfortunately, their programs never had enough money. Hoover believed that direct federal intervention would create a large bureaucracy. After much disapproval from the American public, Hoover finally budged. He allowed state funds to provide relief for the unemployed. But this effort came too late.
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President Roosevelt's Philosophies
FDR was ready to experiment, unlike Hoover. Because of his own illness and the giant gap between the wealthy and the poor, FDR had compassion for the ordinary citizens of America. FDR knew that Americans were searching for a change and that s exactly what he gave them.
FDR communicated with the public by radio every week and assured them that recovery was near, thus, increasing their confidence. During the first one hundred days of President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s term of office, he feverishly pushed program after program through Congress to provide relief, create jobs, and stimulate economic recovery.
These programs were based on federal agencies that had controlled the economy during WWI or on programs started by Hoover[/u] or by state governors. FDR s new programs were known as the "New Deal." [refer to Successes and failures of Roosevelt's "New Deal" programs for more information]
Philosophies of President Hoover and President Roosevelt (http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/depression/philosophies.html)
So, I guess you figure FDR and Bush were both smart enough to use Hoover's ideas then?
:rofl
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yea bush and hoover have alot in common both are idiots following a flawed idiotic economic policy. bush is just doing it 70 years after we discovered it was lunacy. the sad little deserter **** that he is hasent ever paid a hard debt in his life.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2082321/
i simply can't believe you are trying to sell that hoover of all people was a decent president or was responsible for the new deal policys (every other damn republican almost to a man was against them in any case).
p.s.
know what a hoover hog is ( at least in south texas and lousiana)? its a armodillo, my whole family still calles them that in thanks to the man who made them to poor to get the real thing.
wake up dude look at your motives for selling this outragous lie.
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Still the bitter curmudgeon, I see.
No, I was pointing out to k2cok that
After the crash Hoover announced that while he would keep the Federal budget balanced, he would cut taxes and expand public works spending.
Sound familiar?
Bush seems to have taken some pages out of Hoovers play book.
is inaccurate. Bush's policies are more like FDR's than Hoover's.
Historically, Hoover barely got the ball rolling on expanding public works spending; it was FDR that spent the nation into what was then a "huge deficit."
Note that during Roosevelt's "New Deal", the average yearly federal budget deficit was about three billion dollars, out of an entire federal budget of six to nine billion dollars, a significantly a larger portion of the government's operating expenses in the 30s than it is today.
(Neither agreeing with nor disagreeing with the "need" for such spending here; just pointing out that it was FDR that really turned on the money spigot from Washington.)
Check out this quote:
Our policy is succeeding. The figures prove it Secure in the knowledge that steadily decreasing deficits will turn in time into steadily increasing surpluses, and that it is the deficit of today which is making possible the surplus of tomorrow, let us pursue the course we have mapped.
:lol Sure makes K2cok's comment a non-starter.
As for
yea bush and hoover have alot in common both are idiots following a flawed idiotic economic policy. bush is just doing it 70 years after we discovered it was lunacy.
You're just as mistaken only typically more bitter. If one has to compare, FDR/Bush economic policy is much, MUCH closer than Hoover/Bush economic policy.
Next time before you bathe you stomach lining in more vitriol, pick up an apple and a history book and save yourself an ulcer.
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Here, just for you.. better take a few Tums first. :)
: President Bush's supporters would dearly like to equate him with Ronald Reagan, but the mold doesn't fit, even though Bush, like Reagan, may have to reverse himself on the matter of tax cuts.
: Something eerier is going on. Bush seems to have been invested with the ghost of Franklin D. Roosevelt. The similarities are remarkable, and not just because both presidents had their terms punctuated by a devastating and dastardly sneak attack.
: Roosevelt and Bush both came to office on vague problems, their appeal being largely that they were sunnier and more optimistic than their opponents, the dour Herbert Hoover and the pedagogic Al Gore.
: Roosevelt created an alphabet soup of government agencies. Bush created the Department of Homeland Security that now employs 1 out of every 12 federal workers.
: Roosevelt assumed vast new responsibilities for the federal government. So did Bush, assuming responsibility for one of the few areas Roosevelt left for him -- public education -- through the No Child Left Behind Act.
: Both presidents ran huge deficits. In his first six years in office, Roosevelt never ran a deficit of less than $2.2 billion, and that was back when a billion dollars was real money. Until 1930, the government had run surpluses 11 straight years. The federal budget was in its fourth year in surplus when Bush took office; then it went into the red, and the deficit this year will be around $500 billion -- and that's when a half-trillion dollars is real money.
: Both successfully fought wars abroad under remote and difficult circumstances. Both wars had long and difficult aftermaths _ World War II begat the Cold War, and the Iraq war has left a difficult and dangerous occupation and a restive Arab world.
: For both presidents, their closest ally was a British leader, Winston Churchill for Roosevelt and Tony Blair for Bush. Both British leaders found themselves in political hot water after having successfully prosecuted a war.
: Both presidents liked the Navy's ships. Bush, sporting a Navy flight suit, landed on a carrier, and Roosevelt vacationed on warships.
: Both love dogs. Roosevelt was inseparable from his Scottish terrier Fala. And Bush is rarely without _ this gets spooky _ his Scottish terrier Barney and his English springer spaniel Spot.
: Both spend part of each summer in Maine.
Is Dubya Really FDR? (http://www.igl.net/wwwcurr/messages/507.shtml)
Enjoy.
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This one is going to make your acid pump run overtime. :)
However, you can't really consider yourself educated unless you examine both sides of a question before forming an opinion, can you.
A summary of:
Out of Work: Unemployment and Government in 20th Century America. The authors are Richard Vedder and Lowell Gallaway, both Professors of Economics at Ohio University who have served on the Joint Economic Committee of Congress.
HERE (http://www.independent.org/tii/content/briefs/b_outofwo.html)
Of course, I realize that two professors have nowhere near the understanding of economics that you do, but perhaps you'll write them and help them correct some of their more glaring inaccuracies?
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Originally posted by Toad
The authors are Richard Vedder and Lowell Gallaway, both Professors of Economics at Ohio University who have served on the Joint Economic Committee of Congress.
So they held a government post, hmmm. And who appointed them to this commitee?
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He kinda looks like Al Franken
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_55_1064754785.jpg)
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Toad, I read the article. So basically what they are saying is that if government does not get involved with unemployment and we all work for lower wages, everything will be just fine.
"Unemployment not only reeflects excessively high wages, but also is exacerbated by government programs and regulations designed to increase earnings and foster ‘income security.’ "
So i'm making too much money? That's news to me and my family. Could you take that statement and say that CEO's of big banks and oil companies are making too much $$? So you could say that it's them making too much $$ and causing unemployment? Or is it just the wages of people who make under 30k that matter?
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Six,
I think you have to talk to Grun or Miko about labor rates, supply and demand for labor, CEO pay, etc., etc., etc.
I spent most of my working life in a Union, doing Union committee work as well. :rofl
So, if you want to pigeonhole me for your own comfort, I think you're going to find I'm a bit hard to classify.
However, like I said, you can't really consider yourself educated on a subject unless you read and try to understand both sides. I think those efforts often lead to the comments about "hmmm.. this isn't as simple as it first appeared to be."
Point in that reference is that THERE IS another side. And like most "other sides" they have some good points in their argument. They have some reasonable data to back up the points. This leads inevitably to the consideration that "hey.. they just might be right, or partially right."
Hmmm.. this isn't as simple as it first appeared to be.
:p
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That is why I took the time to read the link you posted. I didn't realize I "pigeonholed" you.
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Originally posted by Toad
However, you can't really consider yourself educated unless you examine both sides of a question before forming an opinion, can you.
HERE?? AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA!! :lol :rofl :lol
:D