Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Minotaur on December 04, 1999, 08:59:00 PM
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Please; lets put all our ideas in this thread. I grow tired of reading negative comments regarding the above in just about every other thread.
Mino
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This thread is over modelled.
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Talk to CW, who thinks the Spitfire is under-modeled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Take That CW!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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P51. climbs like a ki84
top end like a 262
armor like a f4f
turns like a spit.
Its only saving grace is the relatively weak guns. Which is quickly made up for by being favored by gang bangers.
Spit. yes its overmodeled. but at least they stand and fight. And you can fly by yourself and have a fighting chance against the afore mentioned gang bangers.
[This message has been edited by TT (edited 12-05-1999).]
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Bear in mind that it has been said that the FM is not complete but if you believe something is wrong don't shout out uberspit or ubermustang one just shot me down so they are overmodelled. Do some testing and clearly present your evidence.
When pyro sees "xxxxx is overmodelled" do you think he thinks "you know i think he/she is right" or "banana" (ps i use this word cause i hear you americans don't know what it means).
Anyway i hear that recently a flight magazine made a list of the top prop aircraft of WWII judged against certain catagorys and the p51 came 3rd so it should be pretty uber (the two planes that beat it aren't in this game.....yet)
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The spit doesn't seem overmodelled to me. Should turn great - does. Climb great - does. Good acceleration - has it. A bit fragile - is. Nice top speed - has.
51's may be slightly overmodelled, but if so it's in the acceleration category. Its sustained climb is about right from the specs I've seen. Zoom climb is simply outrageous - and in RL it was. The ability to accelerate as fast as a spit at 10k with 100% fuel is what has me wondering, though.
I don't think it's so much that they're in the uber category as that a few planes are in the unter category. And you know what? Pyro said he'll look into it, because it does look suspect (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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*Yawn* Let's move on to something better, please.
-Pchr-
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HEAD ONs.
and those that like using that skill-less cheap shot can kiss my arse.
-Westy
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Leonid: you forget that P-51 climbs like rocket too..
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i think the spit is ok but the 51 definitely is too good. when it's climbing with my clean 109 i really start to wonder.
-shower
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fishu, i tested the 51's climb rate and it came smack dab in the middle of the two values i had from references.
i really think that the 109 is undermodelled, not the other way around.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I really wonder about the complaints about HOs. Plane A and his buddied get the advantage on Plane B. Plane B canot out turn or out run any of his adverserys. He has no time to patiantly try to get rear aspect kills on even one target little own 2-3. Only raw aggression can save him. I have often been in Plane Bs postion. There is a gang of Bish Ponys lead by Wardog I believe that have several times gotten me at a bad disadvantage. If given nothing else I will try to make them pay for it at least. Unforunalty Wardog is very deadly HO. But when you have a team of guys that work together well with all the advantages..what do you do Bail?
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Well the I've since renounced my anti HO stance and am joining the rank of those who do it.
I know all about creatgin seperation on the merg and not going head to head. what happened that got my pressure up was a group of 4 P51's that decided they weould B&Z a 4 plane furball on the deck. It was me and another guy versus two enemy. We were turn fighting...till these four P51's would come swooping in for head on shots only.
Me and my wingy died of course.
Is it realistic? Yes. Headons occured. No. They didn't fight WWII on a computer in an arena where anyone can fly any plane.
It was the deliberate use of the Buzzstang head on maneuver that sucked.
Head ons are for rutabagas. I've decided to become a popsicle too.
-Westy
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Please.. try to HO me. I love it. Every guy that tries to HO me I get angles and usually E on as well. Going for the HO for some is a good move... ie if they are out of options and/or have better guns, but it is a poor choice. I'll go low at the merge under the nose of a HO'er and then reverse upward smoothly. If the enemy tries to HO, he has to point his nose down.. and going low on the merge while I go up hands me all the advantages on a nice shiny platter.
Sure, sometimes I screw up my jinks or mis-time it and get hit, but I get tons of kills because some dweeb keeps trying to HO me and gives me the advantage. So fill your boots all of you HO dweebs, it makes it easier for me to kill ya! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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I am not talking of current Me109, I am talking of the desert 109, in earlier versions, which DID climb better.
nowadays 109 barely outclimbs light 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I am begining to form a new way of looking at "overmodeled" or "undermodeled" plane commentaries! Maybe the planes are fine just as they are! Maybe the opinions of them are "overmodeled" or "undermodeled"! Maybe we have too many "UberCritics"! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It never will be right for everyone, everyone has there own likes and dislikes, opinions and bias's. It is a game and for me, learning what to do with what we have makes more sense then WHINING about this or that! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) HiTech's wav file sums it up nicely! We want this!.. and that!.. we demand a share in that!.. and most of that!.. some of this!.. and F***in all of that!.. less of that!.. and more of this!.. and F***in plenty of this! And another thing!... I want it now!.. I want it yesterday!.. I want f***in more tomorrow!.. And the demands will be changed then!.. so f***in stay awake!
A thought.... We have Killshooter for guys that shoot freindlies. We need a killshoter for some on these "overmoded","undermodeled", "UBERthis-or-that" over opinionated, pompis
try to feel big by driblin all over these pages flyer types! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) hehe Makes me wanna puke! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think I'll take names and go hunt um... I knew something good would come of this!!!............................. ...
I say this in jest though there may be a thread of truth in it! hehe
Thunder Out!
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i don't know how accurate the pony really is since i've never flown one. but i do know this: i am a mediocre pilot (i admit it) and i make plenty of mistakes. with every other plane you pay for those mistakes most of the time, but with the stang you can use its speed to get away with mistakes almost every time. i like to use other planes because i want to pay for my mistakes, and hopefully become a better pilot because of it. since i as a mediocre pilot can jump into a stang and survive for many times longer than any other plane, it leads me to believe the plane has an advantage over other planes. maybe it had that advantage in real life. which brings up my point: ultimate realism and game balance are mutually exclusive goals. the US won the air battle in both theatres despite having less-experienced pilots. the primary reason we did well then is one of the same reasons we do well today: we can afford to produce superior equipment. since this is ultimately a game (ok, ok! i'll say 'simulation') it has to balanced, or else it's not worth playing, so i say you gotta 'fix' the mustang even if it doesn't really need fixing.
-shower
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Shower
... so i say you gotta 'fix' the mustang even if it doesn't really need fixing.
I hope this NEVER (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) comes to happen.
Once you start "playbalancing" aircraft, where do you stop and with which country or type of aircraft?
This was reportedly done in another simulation, and the repercussions and personal attacks are still flying over the issue.
I don't want to see that happen here.
And can you honestly call this a "simulation" if the flightmodels have been intentionally crippled to "playbalance" the arena? If it flys differently than the real thing did, the name is just a name.
You might as well call a playbalanced P-51, an Intercomm Tie Fighter. Because neither one is an accurate description of what you are flying.
I say if an aircraft had a historical advantage then so be it, as long as its historical disadvantages are just as accurate.
Match the FM's to the best numbers available, and then let things fall where they may.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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That other sim has a correctly modeled(I assume)jet in it. But they only let it play about once a month.
The better pilots will be able to make out in any plane. But aside from them, we are on the verge of becomming a one plane sim.
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Shower.
Have to disagree.
I would rather fight at a disadvantage every time then "Balance" anything.
People have questions about the modeling of the planes in the game. After however many years in the multiplayer Aircombat sim business I bet the crew at HTC are so used to people "discussing" FMs and lethality and everything else that they dont even hear it.
I hope for myself that they find a way to release their flight models in a way that is understandable to us so that we can really debate and compare their "Interpretation" of our favorite aircraft. Some justification for each aircraft would be nice too. I would rate this in importance somewhere between boxart and incorporating the Boomarang into the game.
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No, Shower, nobody is asking for tuning down an aircraft for playability reasons.
I just repeat that I can't believe Pony was that good in just about every aspect except roll rate.
And all we ask is that HTC crew takes another look at the model. Surely they know better, but they can make mistakes (remember our 109G-10). And if it really was that uber, than we need LW uber planes to fight it.
As for detuning a plane for play balance. Hmm, somehow it reminds me of an old WB Dora tale.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-06-1999).]
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Just for the heck of it I did some offline climb tests. I tried the 51 and F4U.
Method used: Both planes were loaded with 25% fuel (both have about the same milage on this amount, maybe little more for stang) Trimmed for level flight at about 50 ft. Cut to idle and let her slow to 200mph (IAS) then punched it full wep and pulled till climb was 4k then hit auto angle. Recorded time every 1k ft.
I'm not gonna post every 1000 feet here, and my graph is on paper, but heres the over all gist....
1k - 5k both were about equal. I'm presumming this was still sort of a zoom climb from that 200mph starting speed. Both the 51 and F4U were good zoom climbers. No complaints here.
5K-15k, the P51 has a 1-2k advantage at any given time.
15-25k that gap widens to around 2-3k.
Overall times 0-25k were....
P51: 7:14
F4U: 8:17
Also, upon reaching 25k the P51 was traveling about 20mph faster than the F4U. Presumably you could yank up a bit at the last 2k and cut a large margin off that time, while the F4U would just stall.
I could have made errors, infact I'm sure I did somewhere in there. I may re-do the test and film it this time...or I might not. I'm not saying anything either way, you be the judge of the data. Try it yourself if you want.
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pongo and hristo,
i agree with you idealogically, of course. but TT is right when he says we are on the verge of becoming a one plane sim. realistically, i wonder how many people will tire of shelling out $360 a year for a flight sim the effectively offers only one plane. i know this game is supposed to appeal to the flight sim purist, but purists alone won't make Hitech Creation's bankroll. this game has to appeal to the 'dweebs' also, and the way you do that is with variety.
-shower
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Shower sorry for that attitude back there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But you must realize that saying a historic FM should be playbalanced, in a Sim like this, is like walking into your local church's chapel and performing a druidic fertility rite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) HERESY !!!!
There are other ways to get people to fly "different" aircraft. 3 quick ways I can think off.
1.) Scoring Modifier: Your score awarded for kills is inversely proportional to the amount that killing aircraft is flown. So if you go out and fly a Hurricane II, that is only flown 1 time compared to 100 Spitfire IX sorties, you get a x100 multiplier to any score awarded (probably not that large but you get the picture).
2.) Fuel Multiplier: This is currently in use. Alot of people, myself included, complain about the number of Spitfires in the arena. Well, I think that the fuel modifier is actually keeping that ratio lower than if it wasn't applied. Of course this doesn't effect the problem is the current "uber" is a plane like the Mustang.
3.) Strat Targets: Make each country have 1-3 aircraft factories. Factory #1 produces the most popular aircraft (and popularity should be dynamic, based upon sortie ratio). Factory #2 produces the second most popular aircraft, etc. So now the enemy can deprive you of your "favorite" ride by bombing the hell out of the factory that produces them. Just like with fuel, ammo, bombs, and troops.
These are just a few of the more common ideas that can be implemented.
But please please please don't ask for "playbalancing" of the Flight Models (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Lephturn: totally agree on HO'ing. Only time I find myself in an HO these days is if I'm lo and slo. Otherwise, I do exactly as you do. In fact, I suspect there are many players who if not HO'ing are at least looking for a gun pass on the initial merge. This places them in a similar position as well. Establish position, then find the gun solution. Only way to come home alive consistently.
CombatWombat: Your time of 7min. 14 sec. for 0-25k feet in a P-51 is a mere 4 seconds off a time I have from a reference source.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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the 51 1500hp? acceleration is complete bull it can out accelerate a spit 1900hp? in most situations,and what is up with the flaps i have seen them out turn a spit slow. you guys fixed this prob with the spit by slowin down the speed that flaps drop(wonder why the 51 are still fast and will deploy at 600 kn)
i really believe the super 51 is ruinin this sim (much as the super spit did air warrior)
just give it some weakness, THE HISTORIC ONES WILL DO (the laminar wings suck for low speed turns PLEASE MODEL THIS).i would love to see just one guy lose control in a 50 g 150kn turn. most of the half decent 51 pilots are not at all afraid to engage a spit slow and that is just plain bull.
well im playin alot less, yall may not miss me but just the same i was gonna join this sim when it went public, as it stands im lookin forward to ww2 online, im tired of losin fights to low skill pilots in a plane with no weaknesses at all
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Towd;
Sorry to hear that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I am not sure that I understand your reasons, but good luck to you.
For myself I know that I have gotten alot better. I actually get a kill once in awhile these days.
It is just my opinion, but I suspect that the pilot quality in general is going up. I just CAN'T be the only one to have improved.
"Bragging Rights" (or wrongs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I got my first 4 kill sortie yesterday. It was very thoughtful of those C-47's to line up so nicely. I am happy just now.
Tally Ho! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Towd, please, P 51D has one historic weakness. It rolls way slower than 190, especially at slow speed.
Hmm, but that's the only weakness I'd give to the AH P 51D.
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well after my post i went on and climed into a 51 for the evening. and the carnage began, must have made atrox mad killed him 4 seperate times, now he beats me most nites and i consider him to be beter than myself ( at tactical flyin) but hell in a 51 you dont need tactics you are basicaly untouchable if you keep you head on strait and dont get jumped. please please please make one of the "varients" the 190d9 or somthin that is in the 51s league cause 51s are jusplane unreal as far a proformance ( kill tha 650 kn flaps/speedbreaks) .
also an interesting side note got board whith the carnage my 51 was causin so i jumped into a shinden and had a 6 kill run all 6 kills in less that 5 min (no buffs or 47s either) and unlike wardog they werent vuches either.
in sumation please guys the 51 is in need of some taming (i was turn fightin spits for gods sake)
yall be good
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the 51 1500hp? acceleration is complete bull it can out accelerate a spit 1900hp? in most situations,and what is up with the flaps i have seen them out turn a spit slow. you guys fixed this prob with the spit by slowin down the speed that flaps drop(wonder why the 51 are still fast and will deploy at 600 kn)
The vast majority of IXs had a Merlin 66 at 1580HP. Not 1900.
And flaps on a spit are designed for landing only. If you're dropping them in a fight you deserve to get your bellybutton shot off.
B
[This message has been edited by Baal (edited 12-08-1999).]
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Combatwombat: Any time-to-climb tests in AH are hopelessly distorted by the screwed up fuel-flow rates.
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Bugster has 3 kills and has been killed 1 time against the P51-D.
Bugster has 6 kills and has been killed 0 times against the SpitIX.
The one that gives me creeps is the LA-5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
EDIT: To prevent specualtion I've flown only 190A8 in this TOD
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Bugster
JG-2 "Richthofen"
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/ (http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/)
[This message has been edited by Bugjam (edited 12-09-1999).]
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Ok guys...I've been following this thread and have one question to pose to Towd.
Towd Stated: "...please please please make one of the "varients" the 190d9 or somthin that is in the 51s league cause 51s are jusplane unreal as far a proformance.."
Dont we already have a plane that will offset the Stang? We do! Its another Stang! =)
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Think all of you guys are forgeting 1 thing!! Once out of Beta and we have a large plane set,im sure HT will go with an RPS per arena. Therefore the late model planes will have there place at the end of the RPS. Uberplanes will come along as they where meant to by date in the war..
You really dont think there is going to be an open arena with all planes available at the same time,do you?
This kills the Uberplane talk,as everyone knows at the wars end,51s did rule the sky enmass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If this wherent true,we would all be speaking German (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Stop squeakin bout planes till we are outa beta & go public. You will see a big difference with an RPS setup..
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whos bichin? i just like playin the game and 80% of the planes i see are 51s ( very much like 1944 europe where hourds of 51s overwelmed not outproformed all others)/
if there is a negative lean to my comments im sorry, its not intended i love this game more that any other. but, why do we have this dicussion? i assume the boys at hitech read this and will react to out comments if they find them valid if not they can just ignore us. the statements here are i am shure considered valid by their authers so lay off the constant comments about winin/complainin (or brown nosein) ,and re read the topic. we are all aware its a beta that is why we post our comments. you are the only fellow who had no response but to tell us we are all wrong, in future how bout if you have no addition to the converstation just shut up yourself
[This message has been edited by -towd_ (edited 12-09-1999).]