Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ISHMAEL on September 21, 1999, 12:35:00 PM
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The following is quote from the front page of this Web site:
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Aces High is about the science and art of air combat. It is designed to be very representative of air combat through the use of real world tactics.
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The makers of this Online Only Sim are claiming that they have DESIGNED the product with the specific aim of encouraging use of "real world tactics."
I ask, What *is* this design that will encourage such tactics? Why should I expect to see greater use of "real world tactics" in Aces High than I might expect to see in Air Warrior or Warbirds (or for that matter Desert Fighters *free* MMP?).
I have presented a cohesive plan for HOW real world tactics CAN be encouraged (and thus used as a marketing angle) in an online only flight combat simulation (for more details on this subject, I encourage new readers to review the "How to Conquer the Flight Sim Market" and "An Epistle to Ishmael" threads). This plan has enjoyed limited testing and has met with great success - it awaits a more extencive testing for conclusive results.
What plan does Aces High currently have in place to encourage use of "real world tactics" by paying members? Does it have a plan?
If not, what reason can it provide for *NOT* developing such a plan? How is the current marketing angle justified in the absence of a plan?
If it *DOES* have a plan for encouraging use of "real world tactics" - as the marketing would suggest - what is this plan?
The Online Alter Ego system is designed to produce the results that the makers of this sim claim to desire. Should it then be so quickly dismissed?
ISHMAEL
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can u picture him playin a organ with a crazed expression like captain nemo in 20,000 leages ?
"they destroyed me and now i will destroy them, full speed ahead"
heheehe
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Really, liked his idea, but he's worn it out....
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GreyBeard
Flt Ldr
Skeleton Crew
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I would like to add these points:
#1. I am very excited by the Aces High product and look forward to the beta test.
#2. Some of the featues (like the weapon loadout screen) are very innovative and appear extreemly user-friendly.
#3. The graphics look beautiful!
#4. The weapon and flight modeling sound astonishingly detailed and feature-rich!
MANY of these elements contribute to the immersivness of the player experience and some have an impact upon tactics.
HOWEVER - I maintain that we can have no hope of "real world tactics" being used by players in the absence of some modeling of the >real world conditions< underwhich combat took place: specifically, the undesirability of "death."
To encourage use of "real world tactics," some system needs be developed to model the pilot's "will to live." The OAE "rewards-based" system is one such model.
ISHMAEL
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Ish,
Methinks you should adopt the name of your captain, as I believe you have found your whale.
Rolo
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Or Renfield from Dracula
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Rolo:
LOL!!! :-)
Moby Dick is indeed my favourite novel of all time - and the origin of my moniker.
ISHMAEL
~~--->>
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Silly Plonk and Ishmael you disappoint me I was looking forward to a nice war of words but I'm afraid it has degenerated into mutual backslapping please do not keep this up and since the topic has moved to a new post I hope you can reignite your hatred.
On a more serious note I am still having trouble seeing your idea working in it's current form on a 24/7 server. As many people have pointed out before your idea and your test is very much like a scenario. I will describe a scenario in more detail as far as I have experienced it in AW, I will also comment on why it is similar/dissimilar to your test. In a scenario you only get one life which creates tension like your OAE system does but it in a different way. In a scenario everything is organised so people fly in groups with a definite game plan and objectives which creates a feeling of being a team which is part of the fun. Your test will be similar to this in the fact that it is flown by people who know each other and therefore will find it much easier to work in a team making this similar to a scenario although probably not the same level of organizeaction. I also assume these flights are flown in a similar time frame to the scenario. So to sum up the similarities you have created an environment very similar to that of a scenario which is FUN. Now here comes the part in which I believe your idea has shortcomings Ishmael :
1) While the your setup is similar to scenario I do not believe it is as good due to the fact everyone in your group flies the same plane regardless of ability and also planes of opposing teams are a historical match and also the planning is not done on the fly. Obviously a major attraction is just 1 life and as your system is designed for 24/7 play it can't have one life so instead it has huge advantages for long surviving pilots but in my opinion this decreases balance and realism ( squadron leader to pilot officer : I'll have this spit 14 you have that hurri 1 - this is not realistic)
2) When you analyse a scenario it's probably 2 hours of flying around and 15 minutes of action this is compensated for by the tension(for everyone not just those with a kill streak) , team work, and knowing you are playing on a level playing field. I just don't see how your system can create this atmosphere on a 24hour basis as many players will not have any sort of substantial kill streak and the main arena is not organised so many players will be flying around on their own with no definite objectives and when you haven't got these factors but still have the 2 hours of flying and 15mins of action it will not be fun for a sizeable proportion of the arena.
On a separate point about the award scheme for long streaks is the fact you will give ace's better visibility to indicate superior situational awareness(SA) of a RL ace but RL aces did not have better eyesight they had better SA i.e. They probably to look around more, look harder and look in the right places the same is true in sims, better pilots have better SA not better eyesight this idea is nonsensical.
P.S. Ishmael i would appreciate a well thought out well argued response as i agree with your basic principal that lives should be more costly
P.P.S You've read all this are you MAD?
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Hehehe... I just wanna see these two go at it in the air. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) They should be good 'n worked up by the time the AH beta is out!
Andy
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Of course, Ish only gets one life. Sure hope he doesn't crash on the first takeoff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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Ish and I are friends now.
Go find your own sandbox!
:b
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
S.P.
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ME GAWD...are all Canadians this pushy Ish?
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Are all Canadians this pushy? No...
My Dad's a preacher....that's explains everything. ;-)
ISHMAEL
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This is a reply to jimccaul:
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In a scenario everything is organised so people fly in groups with a definite game plan and objectives which creates a feeling of being a team which is part of the fun.
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The OAE system doesn't require people to fly with any kind of organization. However, as formation flying and team tactics make susrvival more likely, the existence of an OAE system PROMOTES such activities without requiring them as a condition of participation.
Players are free to fly when they want and with whome they want where they want. Many will CHOOSE to arrange to meet friends for team flights in order to promote their personal survival.
Once again, if you simulate real world conditions, real world tactics will result naturally - without any additional complications.
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Your test...is flown by people who know each other and therefore will find it much easier to work in a team
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As a matter of fact, few of the players in the Historical War knew each other. Furthermore, each participant was ANNONYMOUS. Only >I< knew their real identity. Each player assumed the name of his current alter ego and other players knew him/her only by that name. When the alter ego died, that was the end for that persona.
This kind of scenario need not exist in a more relaxed OAE environment however. Players may re-use the same name for all of their alter egos. Only their stats are reset upon death.
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Obviously a major attraction is just 1 life and as your system is designed for 24/7 play it can't have one life so instead it has huge advantages for long surviving pilots
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Remember that pilots can only survive long IF THEY ARE SKILLED IN COMBAT OR SUPERIOR TACTICIANS. Demonstrated skill is the only means to success.
Many people have refered to the OAE as a "kill streak" system. This is inaccurate. The system rewards long life with experience and kills with base points. More experienced alter egos have a multiple applied to these base points.
To become experienced, one need not make a single kill. Experience is gained by time spent in the combat area. Rank, medals, or other awards are a product of points but experience is a product of combat time.
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When you analyse a scenario it's probably 2 hours of flying around and 15 minutes of action this is compensated for by the tension(for everyone not just those with a kill streak) , team work, and knowing you are
playing on a level playing field.
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Tension would also be increased on the 24/7 combat arena as a result of the OAE system, however there may be many more engagements. The OAE compensates the cautious player by rewarding actions that lead to survival. It also provides all players with an ongoing challenge (rather than just a series of minor combats).
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On a separate point about the award scheme for long streaks is the fact you will give ace's better visibility to indicate superior situational awareness(SA) of a RL ace but RL aces did not have better eyesight they had better SA
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Eyesight would not be improved. The hat switch and other manual views would operate the same for all pilots. The proposal (and it is only one proposal) is that long lived OAEs be given a greater range for their automatic tracking keys - to simulate the improved SA that comes of combat experience.
This WOULD remain a measure of the player's skill - as more skilled players would tend to fly the longer-lived alter egos more of the time.
ISHMAEL
ps. I am not mad. Though I am perhaps a little crazy ;-)
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BTW, Desert Fighters got cancelled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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TKoKFKA-OZDS-
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If Desert Fighters has been cancelled, that's the first I've heard of it.
ISHMAEL
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Ishmael your answer doesn't really satisfy me it avoids the main issues which I feel need to be addressed but this is partly my fault due to my long rambling post. I will now break down my feelings why this idea at the moment wouldn't work in a 24/7 arena. I could be wrong nobody will really know until it is tested 24/7 server with a 100's of people in the arena.
1) You say you want to encourage more realistic player behaviour as it is to unrealistic at the moment i.e. Not disengaging enough, furballing, taking opponents on against the odd. The way you do this though is inherently unrealistic. You give pilots with long "live" streaks better planes than there country men this would not happen, you give these planes unrealistic performance boosts and also give these player extra skills and abilities as if they were magicians. All this is not realistic. Also pilots would take planes on against the odds, when large groups of planes met they furballed and did not run away from fights. Admirably though I feel people furball a bit much but it is there money.
2) Unfortunately your unrealistic artificial rewards for long kill streaks will reduce the amount of air combat drastically for those who have a streak of note. This would get boring, there is nothing more fun than going into an against the odds battle and coming out on top. Your system would reduce these circumstances many fold.
3) Your system rules the game so people who do not like it are driven away purely because the way it is setup.The amount of people who will not like the system will be large as I suspect any one with a k/d ratio of less than 1 : 1 would feel aggrieved that they will not get a chance to fly the favourite planes such as the P51-d or spit14 because only the good players get these planes. Also there is no greater joy for the average player than to shoot down a good player but this will happen a lot less if you have to take on a spit14 in a P-39. There is a time and place for strict penalties - scenario's.
4) You will have a situation where at least 50% of people have nothing to lose as they only have kill streaks of 0 or 1 so your system not only denies this majority of an even fight but the tension and fearing of death your system is supposed to give.
5) Also you say this encourages teamwork as people group together or protection but this isn't teamwork, in fact your system discourages teamwork as it is completely based on individual success. Whose is going to risk there streak to save a fellow country man in a 3v1, or go on a daring raid to capture an enemy field when they could be safe cruising away at 30 000 feet ready to dive away at the sight of an nme and perhaps taking an occasional flying shot at some low performance plane circa 1939.
6) You do not have much experience in WB or AW I was wondering maybe you found these sims boring because you got shot down a lot.
I have thought of more points but have left them out for brevity ( this is brief!). I will say that on testing of the concept not all these factors may appear if the idea was tested but I believe the idea just will not work at the moment because to much about it is wrong at present that is not to say it is not without merit.
P.S. Your dad is a preacher..... Now I see where you get your faith in ideas with little evidence to back them up.
P.S. I would appreciate specific reaction to each point on why I am wrong not vague politicians mumbling on why your idea is great.
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Read the news on any gaming site -- Sierra went out and zapped several titles, Bablyon 5, a Middle Earth RPG, Desert Fighters, and Pro Pilot something or other. Was yesterday IORC.
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TKoKFKA-OZDS-
[This message has been edited by Ozymandias_KoK (edited 09-23-1999).]
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Dweebwarrior I
In the arena you describe Ish, you seem to miss out on a few things.
1)-Death..if death has such a weighted penalty attached to it how are you ever going to find a fight?
Once you get a few kills under your pilots belt, you will take off far away from the action (taking off from a field getting vulched would be suicide of course.
You will only engauge the enemy when you have the advantage. (You might be balsy enough for a 1 on 1..but id bet youd be in a faster plane..just in case..)
Dogfites will be a thing of the past, (I'm not gonna risk MY pilots life in a furball !)
You would prey on the weak and newbies of the arena in your shiny 190 or p-51. (newbies of course flying f4-f's or ol' p40's)
Risk of death would overcome all and force you to behave this way, its the only way your pilot could survive many missions.
There is nothing wrong with this per say.but an arena that forces everyone to value life so greatly,and forcing all to behave like scared rats with no desire to get killed.
Nobody likes to die, but it happens..all the time, every day in our sim lives..it happens.
When your squad needs you to go in under heavy fire and bust that ack, what are you going to do?
When you are ordered to attack that 17 that has gunners from hell what will you do?
When your wingman is smokin bad and needs scortin back to base with 3 or 4 bad guys chasin him what will you do?
Avoiding death? absolutely nothing.
Give it hell, all you got, do or die knowing you will probably auger in in the process?
Somehow I can't see you doing the latter..not with your precious Pilots life on the line.
BTW, in aw3, in b land..there is a pilot named Zazen. Anyone that flies FR knows him, or of him. He averages 400 kills per tour, with maybe..MAYBE 3 to 6 deaths. How does he accomplish such a feat..easy. He follows the guidelines listed above..preys on weak and inferior aircraft, never attacks unless he has a huge advantage, and is always in a lightning fast plane..(I think he flies the 190-D9..maybe the A8.) Hes always up there in points, but a guy like that is pretty much worthless to have around doing mundane missions for a squad. Hes a loner and only cares about himself..he will circle high above and watch his countrymen die below him whiles hes up there in the stratosphere..waiting and watching like a buzzard for a smokin or ammoless enemy breaks and heads back to base. Is this wrong? not at all, but its just not something that 98% of us want to do. I have many friends I have met in aw3, and believe me..if im gonna die tryin to save one of my buddies in a furball so be it. For me, thats what makes these type sims so great..the comraderie and friendship, depending on each other and knowing when you see a squadmate, help is on the way..
Just my .02..ok..maybe a nickles worth
Granger
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so whos going to log on and risk thier one life flying a stuka...who would bother...you have outlined the ultimate fiter dweeb game and thier is nothing realistic about that and you reward the "ace" for getting better while the essential stuka is just target practice...
i would award the points to the stuka fodder.
i would also have a limit on the planes if side A loses all its uber rides thats thier fault and a penalty for throwing them away/using them up...the reward would be more points for flying the essential or boring stuff...these point could be "spent" on flying a better plane which you lose if you die or upgrading to better plane if avaible..of course if you have earned a lot of points flying stuka missions maybe you have enough to buy your ride again...(if still availble)
this way you have something to gain while adding to the game itself...some one has to fly the less glamoruos stuff. what you propose is selfish and not good for a game though i too believe the fighter jock furball mentallity will change.
if red baron 2 had ever become an effective on line game it would have shown the way...it did not its best played as stand alone. i fly many one life scenarios in WB and have flown AW also and know of the excitment of trying to land my one misrable life on a CV with only one gear down and a fuel leak...the combat was tame compared to this..
the players who need rewarding are those who fly the stuff that makes the game such as the buff and stuka boys and those who have to fly the obsolete equipment...not some dude in the latest and greatest ride...
OAE will simply be boring becuse who is going to be interested in flying the other "stuff" to boost some dudes hot ride score...not me....if i got lotsa of points for flying the other stuff maybe so.
Tomb
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My Dad's a preacher....that's explains everything.
Billy-Ray was a Preacher's son, And when his daddy would visit he'd come along,
When they gathered round and started talking,
That's when Billy would take me walking, Through the back yard we'd go walking,
Then he'd look into my eyes, Lord knows to my suprise -
The only one who could ever reach me, Was the son of a preacher man,
The only boy who could ever teach me, Was the son of a preacher man,
Yes he was, he was, ooh yes he was.
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Oblt. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
[This message has been edited by Jochen (edited 09-23-1999).]
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*THWAPS a pointing-stick into a big picture of Jochen taped to a blackboard*
And this, gentlemen, is what can happen if you fly that FW190 for too long...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-bmjk-
617 Squadron RAF
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The Wuerger is the only plane, grasshopper. Spread the Hate in 20MM enemas so they know you mean it.
Seriously, check out my ranting on the thread I just kicked off; I think I explain the how and why of what Ish actually accomplished well enough. I gotta add, the highest-scoring pilot in the test war was a bomber jockey, and he was a real in-yer-face hero IMHO. It really worked, but I have to admit everyone there WANTED it to work, except one pain in the a** who was kicked out and banned for his troubles. It's a sad-but-true fact there'd have to be some clubs around to use on the troublemakers.
As far as furballs, dogfights, fighting from advantage, and all that ... wtf? Has Bullethead left you mutts adrift for too long? You mean there's another way to fight? Fair fights are for the schoolyard, mon ami. The best kill is the one who doesn't know he's meat until the enemas explode in his face, and the killers I know from Ish's deal racked up their scores by not being happy unless they were killing something. Hardly the attitude of slacker trying to save his skin, nope. The trick is learning how to shed lots of blood and not dying in the process. Doesn't take fancy ACM, it takes knowing when you've got a sucker and when it's time to extend and restock -- and then coming back to kill them on your terms.
<EG>
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The one thing all games of this type lack: mission orientation.
There is no real objective that has to be accomplished. I'm not sure you can put that into a game that runs 24/7 and which people pay to play.
If you basically try to emulate "one life" through various devices, it's going to be a tough sell.
Can one create a _game_ that can engender the necessary emotions to make a FW pilot repeatedly make passes on a closely-packed bomber stream that's guarded by higher squadrons of P-51's?
Not in a game...those bombers aren't headed for your house and homeland. No game administrator is going to be able to order you to the Russian front as an infantryman if you want to take a "pass" on that day's flying.
Bottom line is that people still play _games_ for _fun_.
If it's NOT fun...they won't play.
If you make the "death penalty" too high, people will lose interest pretty quickly, I'd wager.
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If you make the "death penalty" too high, people will lose interest pretty quickly, I'd
wager.
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I completely agree. The key is "balance."
As I stated in one of my original posts on this subject, players do not receive electric shocks upon being shot down! :-)
The OAE system is rewards based, rather than punative. It is also designed to appeal to the player's sense of adventure.
Combat flight sims provide immediate rewards for engaging in combat: the thrill of the contest. Rewards for life preservation must be designed to provide a balance only against the desire for immediate gratification of the desire for action. Ideally, they should also model the increasing value of real-world experienced pilots.
In this way, true heroics become possible. The pilot who risks his own life to save that of a comrade has really done something worthy of note (in game terms). Without some risk, there can be no heroics.
Speaking for myself, I can see no reason to spend 30$/month to enter a sim world where true adventure is impossible - especially when I currently participate and officiate combat games based on the OAE (on the other hand, I would CERTAINLY pay $30+/month to participate in a persistant game universe based upon the OAE).
Red Baron 3D's 64 player MMP, combined with the player-modified flight models, damage models, and additional aircraft and ground vehicles created by players, continues to prove itself an ideal platform for running immersive and semi-persistant, campaign-style games.
If there are any persons reading this forum who might be interested in seeing how (and if) the OAE works in practice, I encourage them to pick up a copy of Red Baron 3D and join us in the AirWar or the next Historical War.
For more information, check out these Web sites: http://www.delphi.com/airwar/ (http://www.delphi.com/airwar/) http://www.netvector.com/redbaron/ (http://www.netvector.com/redbaron/)
ISHMAEL
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After wading through the other topics that discuss this OAE system, I think HT has it right.
While you're own extremely limited experiment has satisfied you that you have the right answer, there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that the majority of of on-line ACM players do not desire the gaming experience you so clearly believe in.
You yourself admit to limited/no experience in either Main Arena or Scenario play in either WB or AW. Like it or not, these two games presently lead this category and thus pretty much present the "target market" of an on-line ACM game.
As previously discussed by many others, Historical Scenarios and Arenas just don't draw the crowds that Main Arenas do. This isn't an endorsement of one style over another, it's simply a business fact.
While there is undoubtedly is a market for the OAE experience you suggest, I agree with HT that it is most likely too small to entirely support any ACM game and generate a profit.
Don't give up. Continue to experiment and refine your idea. Every field needs visionary theorists.
Once AH gets up and running, perhaps you can convince HT to let you set up an arena as you envision on-line ACM. I think AH will provide you with a seasoned, serious customer base to try out your ideas.
Good luck!
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Don't give up. Continue to experiment and refine your idea. Every field needs visionary
theorists.
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It is certainly possible to disagree over a purely theoretical concept and respect the opposing view point. Though your own experience leeds you to believe that the OAE concept is not (mass)marketable, I compliment you on your willingness to entertain the idea.
The OAE system remains untested. I can't claim any hard evidence outside of my own experience and limited testing to support my belief that it would have mass appeal. Unsurprisingly however, I remain convinced that it is a good idea that can (and someday will) revolutionize online games (of many genres).
Until the concept has been put to the test, little emperical evidence will exist to support my belief. My hope is that some game developer will eventually take note and invest the resources required to research and test the concept.
If it works (as I believe it will) the payoff could be enourmous. The system would provide a unique feature to the first online sim to employ it and it could perhaps attract thousands of new customers to per-per-play online gaming who might otherwise have restricted themselves to the single-player experience or "free" MMP games like Red Baron 3D (such as myself).
Furthermore, if the effects on combat tactics are as I predict (and limited testing has shown) then many "hard-core" simmers may be drawn to an environment where they can encounter more frequent use of "real world tactics."
In conclusion, by way of responce to some of the criticisms of the OAE that have been made by others in posts I could not respond to directly, I would like to add these final remarks....
Our tests under the OAE system have shown:
1. Players still take risks - but fewer of them and of lesser extremity.
2. Players still come to the rescue of teammates - even against the odds (but do tend to give less extreem assistance).
3. Players with more experienced alter-egos tend to "shepherd" the less-experienced alter-egos (as keeping everyone alive helps the team and helps their own chances of survival in the long term).
4. Less skilled players suffer less from the deaths of their OAEs - minimizing the "disappointment" factor
5. The historical value of combat experience for living pilots is "accurately" modeled (death depleats a valuable or potentially valuable human resource - not just a piece of hardware).
6. The subjective "immersive" feel of the game is reportedly increased (I can now testify to this first hand).
7. Players are never prevented from playing the game. They can always create a new alter ego and immediately rejoin the action (though this was not the case in our tests)
8. OAEs are not the same as "role playing characters." They have no unique characteristics. They have "powers" and "bonuses" that grow in a linear direction (making all equal OAEs share identical characteristics). The player still provides the intelligence, motives and personality.
9. Minimizing loses is now a legitimate goal of any "mission" or offencive/defencive action.
10. The player's individual success is MORE INTIMATELY tied to his team's success.
If anyone should like to get in touch with me regarding this system, I invite them to send me an email: christopher.ash@home.com
ISHMAEL
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Hey ish you still are not answering specific critisms you have done exactly what i asked you not do just post saying OAE is good, except you seem to be doing it with less confidence then you did originally when you were making statements like
THIS IDEA WILL WORK I'M JUST HERE TO INFORM YOU IT WILL
ANY COMPANY THAT USES OAE CANNOT LOSE
IT WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMP GAMES
now you are saying
IT NEEDS TESTING AND TWEAKING
I THINK IT WILL WORK
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Aww, we twit Ish all the time over in RB-land for being a used-car salesman, and a damned pushy one at that. But we did tell him to put up or shut up, and damned if he didn't deliver. It's not for everyone and it's still got refining to suffer but you know, you guys are giving him the same grief he got over there so he's heard it all before, and most of the nay-saying stuff turned out just not to be true.
His success was just a prototype, sure, but how many prototypes blew up on the runway and killed the test driver? His took off and flew pretty damned good, if not perfectly. Yeah, the RB crowd tends to be more polite and stuff than the usual baby-seal-clubbing gomers (now I'm getting hungry) in the WW2 sims, but he's not totally full of sh*t, really. He comes on like afterburners but to his credit he worked his bellybutton off the whole time his war was running and made it happen.
Just give his ideas some thought, why don't ya, and look past the hype to the nuggets he's got worked out. Then go kill something in case you start feeling too polite afterwards. <bg>
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My primary observation is that the OAE idea is extrapolated from a very limited and not necessarily relevant testing protocol.
1. We asked a few guys what they thought was lacking in on-line ACM.
OK, fine...good idea.
2. We came up with an idea that might work.
Super, press on.
3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.
Uh-oh...this is not a representative sample of on-line acm-ers is it?
4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.
So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?
5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.
...and the "pay-to-play" element was totally missing.
6. We, the originators of this idea, were the sole judges of success or failure of the experiment. We found it succeeded beyond our expectations.
Raise any red flags here?
7. We now declare this concept fully validated and ready for "prime time".
Say, you don't work for the U.S. Government by any chance do you? <g>
As HT pointed out, not everyone plays for the same reasons. For everyone seeking the elusive "true realism" there are apparently herds of paying customers crowding into what are basically "fantasy" arenas.
Without going into the "but they didn't do it MY way" argument, it's clear that the AW FR arenas and the WB HA arenas don't get the play that the Mains attract. Perhaps the unwashed paying masses like what they like?
I think it's a bit premature to suggest that OAE is "the" answer based on such a limited test.
Still, that is not to say the idea has no merit. It just really hasn't ever been tested in the pay-to-play environment. I think HT is pretty smart in going with what he knows and what he knows will work, rather than betting the farm on an essentially untested hypothesis.
Always time to experiment _after_ you've paid a few bills.
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Yah, Toad, methinks we're mostly on the same track here. I'm not willing to extrapolate the future by generalizing over one data point but, like someone said up there, good ideas need idealistic visionaries to keep them alive until some part of them takes root. I think I already stood up that the 24/7 type game won't work with this, IMHO. I am keen on seeing more controlled situations where the idea can be tested, though. DoK organized some kick-ass scenarios that weren't the regular order of business for the AW arenas, and I'd bet my last case of old Scotch that Ish will keep plugging until he gets a chance to work out something similar for special AH sessions. There oughta be something for everyone, or at least most people (something just for dweebs leads to images I don't want to think about) and I bet some of the AH crowd, whoever that turns out to be, will want to take a stab at some "one life to live" alter ego stuff with advancement and all that Ish has dreamed up.
Oh, the guy who got the boot wasn't over not following the rules of the scenario, it was for generally being the kind of obnoxious pain in the bellybutton who ought to be flying in properly Hate-filled venues. I actually like the gomer. <g>
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Oh, yeah: I actually DO work for the Feds. Fear me. Bwahahahaha!
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Basically, its a GAME.
Thats why "death" can't be realistically modelled.
People wouldnt play paintball if one hit killed them for the rest of the day.
The best a game system can do is punish deaths by some type of scoring system, and try to make "deaths" negative enough to prevent suicide tactics, while keeping the player interested and a paying customer. People are here to have fun, not adhere to exact real world conditions. That's why you don't need several months of training before they allow you to pick up a Thrustmaster.
<S> To all, it is a very interesting topic, and Ishmael, your motives are noble.
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Let me just reinterate a few points here.
You will recognize them.
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Toad
Junior Member posted 09-24-1999 04:08 PM
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My primary observation is that the OAE idea is extrapolated from a very limited and not necessarily relevant testing protocol.
1. We asked a few guys what they thought was lacking in on-line ACM.
OK, fine...good idea.
2. We came up with an idea that might work.
Super, press on.
3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.
Uh-oh...this is not a representative sample of on-line acm-ers is it?
4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.
So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?
5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.
...and the "pay-to-play" element was totally missing.
6. We, the originators of this idea, were the sole judges of success or failure of the experiment. We found it succeeded beyond our expectations.
Raise any red flags here?
7. We now declare this concept fully validated and ready for "prime time".
Say, you don't work for the U.S. Government by any chance do you? <g>
As HT pointed out, not everyone plays for the same reasons. For everyone seeking the elusive "true realism" there are apparently herds of paying customers crowding into what are basically "fantasy" arenas.
Without going into the "but they didn't do it MY way" argument, it's clear that the AW FR arenas and the WB HA arenas don't get the play that the Mains attract. Perhaps the unwashed paying masses like what they like?
I think it's a bit premature to suggest that OAE is "the" answer based on such a limited test.
Still, that is not to say the idea has no merit. It just really hasn't ever been tested in the pay-to-play environment. I think HT is pretty smart in going with what he knows and what he knows will work, rather than betting the farm on an essentially untested hypothesis.
Always time to experiment _after_ you've paid a few bills.
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My one additional point, that ISH refuses to discuss concerning that guy that got kicked out for not being Gung Ho enough.
There are enough of those types, that would ABSOLUTELY RUIN ISH'S OAE CONCEPT.
Now ISH please expound on how the OAE Concept deals with dweebery in a 24/7 Flight Sim market.
Thank in advance.
Toad, you stated your points, I don't really feel they needed restating, just re-emphasizing.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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Hey Ish if you really believe in your idea why not make it yourself. The flying circus guys did it in there spare time, just read this interview http://www.combatsim.com/fl-circus.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/fl-circus.htm)
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Toad,
I thought the 1 thing games of this type was missing was the ME-163....?
On a completely different note... I'm a flight lead now in RL. Passed my flight lead checkride this week, just in time to get a few lead sorties under my belt before heading off to Texas to be a T-37 IP at Sheppard AFB this November. Ironic, but at least it's a flying assignment.
Hmmm, maybe not so far off topic. No matter whether I risk my life at the hands of the Iraqis or UPT students, my flight pay is the same and I only get one life to mess with. Sorta like the fighter vs. stuka comparision? No? Ah well I tried.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Who makes the seats in the T-37, and are they rocket assisted?
I saw what happened to a Phillippeno GIB who ejected into the ground at Clark. Lost an engine on take off, and the plane rolled just right.
So how long to set up your ISP in Texas?
Don't let Uncle Sam ship you puter, carry it in your car (Truck in Texas) and unpack it as soon as you get to the BOQ?
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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Rockets... Hah. The T-37 uses the charge from an artillery shell or something equally subtle to start the seat up the rails. You gotta be something like 100 ft up and 100 knots to even hope that the chute will open in time. I've heard stories about people who have ejected from the T-37 while stopped on the ramp... They do a half-gainer and land on their face about 50 ft behind the plane, usually still strapped in to the seat.
I plan on hauling some of my stuff to Texas myself for 2 reasons. First and most important, I don't want some stuff damaged on the way. Second and also nice, the USAF will pay me something like 2/3 of what they'd pay a freight company if I move some of my own stuff. It's by the pound, so if I haul the max load my car is allowed to tow, I should make a few hundred bucks. I'm hoping to make the trip pay for the cost of the trailer hitch and trailer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I dunno about network hookups in Wichita Falls TX, but I'm hoping for DSL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Sandbags. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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TKoKFKA-OZDS-
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3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.
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The sample was the best I could get. It included many players who were originally sceptical that the format could work.
What choice did I have? I could only ask for volunteers. But I did try to recruit from both hardcore and casual player elements.
As for the one guy who was booted, this would not have been necissary on an automated system.
Because we had no automation, we had to rely on the honour of the participants to abide by the limitations of the test. None of the system's rules were incorporated into the server architecture, so anyone who wanted to cheat could very easily get away with it - most of the time.
If the rule system was innate to the gaming environment, it would not have been possible to cheat (without hacking into the server). Our only recourse, to maintain the integrety of the system, was to eliminate players who I suspected of cheating (there was only one).
For the record, the one guy who got booted actually did enjoy the game. I think his problem was that he was only about 11 years old! :-) (though he was good pilot, he lacked the maturity to abide by the honour system)
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4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?
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No. But again, I am not a robot. I had ZERO automation capabilities at my disposal. All records were TRACKED BY HAND - with a pencil and calculater. I could only run the test on a limited basis - as my employer wished to see my face at the office from time to time.
Are you suggesting that unless a TEST recreates 100% of the conditions of actual use it has NO value??? The test has enourmous value if only for the fact that it was the first time anyhting like it had been tried!!!
Let me ask you this. If all the players had quit in disgust, boredom or frustration, would you then suggest their reaction was no indication of the validity of the system???? Of course not!
But when the players rave about the game and it attracts attention from people who once said it would never work; when others start to copy its format - many of whom once swore they'd never play under such conditions; when other players make new rules to further enhance the OAE concept; THIS....THIS you say has no value???
Your motives are clearly suspect.
You can easily find holes in this test large enough to drive an elephant through. But it's the possabilities it indicates that are intriguing to those with open minds. It does in fact lend support to an innovative concept that has a real shot at making the online experience more fun and exciting for us all.
If the test can be improved on - then improve it!!! I dare YOU to prove me wrong! Adopt the Historical War rules wholesale and try it.
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5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.
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So....Aces High's own Beta Test will also be initially free. You gotta start somewhere. It's on the BASIS of such a test that a decision is made on whether an idea is commercially viable.
It also provides a "hook" to get players involved before asking for money. Had I asked for money (impossible of course under RB3D) to test an untried concept, I would have had maybe two volunteers. :-)
But if you asked the participants NOW if they would pay for a 24/7 OAE war - I'd be surprised if 100% of them did not say yes.
Yet was it this test that convinced me my idea would work?
No.
I was already convinced.
The test was performed to provide some measure of emperical evidence to support my convictions.
I encountered all the arguments from the naysayes prior to the test. I've heard all the arguments before. But after the test, the stories completely changed - because the skeptics heard the first hand reports from the participants and knew the participants as respectable and trustworthy members of the community.
I don't feel the need to convince you - because I know you are beyond convincing. Not until you have actually played under this system on a 24/7 automated environment will you change your point of view - and only then with the utmost reluctance.
I could have argued till I was blue in the face on Delphi. It wouldn't have changed one opinion. Not until I actually made it happen and showed how exciting and fun MMP could really be did anything change.
I have answered your questions to the best of my ability - but I have no further interest in debating this subject (I'm sure you will be relieved to hear) ;-)
If anyone has a real interest in UNDERSTANDING the system (rather than "proving" why it won't work) I welcome your questions. If anyone has any ideas on how an OAE system might be implemented on the server architecture without requiring a major financial investment, please post! If you have any proposals on how the OAE system might be best applied to achieve an ideal balance, please offer this up for consideration.
But I'm through with the debate. The skeptics will not be swayed by words on a page, and the question is settled in my mind.
ISHMAEL
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"But I'm through with the debate. The skeptics will not be swayed by words on a page,and the question is settled in my mind.
ISHMAEL"
That to me sounds like you are not testing with an open mind ISH. Prejudicial testing never works IMO.
Your concept I could see working in a scenario, but as for 24/7 its asking a bit much. Talk to the different "Free" companys about setting up a test arena to try your thesis out. Warbirds and AW have tried to varying degrees with some of those ideas and it was almost a total waste of time.
Its been pointed out that the masses want unrestricted gameplay for the most part, with the odd 1 life scenario thrown in. Must we hit you over the head with a SHAW BIBLE to make you see the light? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
summary: The masses have spoken..not extremely interested.
Kari Sommer
WB -ping-
Hopefully AH _ping-
Ottawa,Canada
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Yeah, it sure does seem like "Here it is, this is great, you'll love it 'cos I said so, and you must abide by it." This community sorta don't go for that. (Hell, even a King of Kings can't go against community wishes! -- Tho sometimes, summary execution of leaders of rebellions works. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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TKoKFKA-OZDS-
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Ish posted a REALLY long message so here's a condensed version :
MY TEST WAS VALID BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKED IT
I WON'T ANSWER ANY SPECIFIC GAMEPLAY QUESTIONS BECAUSE I AM RIGHT
I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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why don't we just put this topic on the back burner till the beta EH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
then ish should ask htc for a test arena for his idea(personly I think it's a good one,but i think it would only really be good in a seperate arena,then I could go to the main fart around learn how to get killed real well then go to the "REALISTIC"arena and try not to repeat)
just my $.043can $.02 us and I think two partriges in a pear tree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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when you least expect it.
there I'll be.... A perfect target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by dogsta (edited 09-26-1999).]