Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HaHa on December 05, 1999, 05:21:00 AM
-
Bouncey.. all I can say is all the planes are bouncey. I've gotten a new stick so I know it's not my stick. I always used to have WB as my "realistic" sim now with AH its like.. uhm gee is this realistic? these things fly like they're suspended by rubber bands
Every little movement I always hear the little stall horn.. getting louder and louder. So fine I'm not going fast enough but then once I actually have speed I get blackouts instead of hearing the horn. There is no happy medium!!
Maybe it's my stick, maybe I'm going crwazy but I was NEVER frustrated nearly have as much with the flying model in WB as I am now with AH. It might have something to do with the "anti-stick" stirring code forcing more stalls.. I don't know all I know is it just doesn't feel right (of course I only have 2-3 years of WB experience to base "right" on.. no real-life flying experience).
My wish:
- lower stall horn sound sensitivities on all the planes (i.e. make them more maneuverable)
- lower black out sensitivities
- improve the joystick code and something.. I've spent over 2 hour trying to tweak my stick and it still doesn't feel like it's working as it should.
I know you realistic diehards are going to just flame me for this but please don't flame me unless you've had first hand flying experience, other than assuming that the "harder" the sim is then the more realistic it must be.
-
Don't know about making the planes more maneuverable, but I agree with your comments regarding blackout onset.
At the moment, blackout does seem to come on a trifle early IMHO. Sure makes it hard on those barrel roll break reversals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
-
HaHa,
No flame here. I have real life flying experience including some time in a Aeronca Champ that was a really enjoyable stick and rudder tail dragger. I do not have any experience in high performance war birds. I personaly feel the flight model is really good in here, I prefer it to WarBirds. The planes do have a bit of a hung on a rubber band feel to me too, but I think it may take some tweaking on Pyro's part to reduce that, something they are going to be working on next.
As far as every little movement causing black out or stall I don't have that problem, I get black outs when pulling high G maneuvers in combat, generaly fly on the edge of a total black out, and also I end up flying on the edge of a stall with the stall horn blaring away at me the whole time.
It takes time but learning to fly smoothly is a major item here. We don't have the tacticle and "felt" gravity to give us clues to what we are doing so we need to learn to use visual and audio clues instead. The stall horn gives us an audible clue as to the ability of the wings to provide lift. BTW, there are high speed stalls too so don't depend on strictly speed to tell you if you are going to stall or not. The black outs give us the G loading clues, where (when they get it modeled) the limits of the plane and pilot reach their limits.
Reducing stall horn sensitivities, or as you stated, making them more maneuverable, in my humble opinion is not the solution. Though some of these planes may need tweaking in that regard, we also don't want an arcade type of plane set that only requires pointing the nose at a con to shoot at him. What makes this work as a ACM combat sim is the various strengths and weaknesses of the different types. For low level, in the dirt turn and burn type dogfights pick the right plane, the Spitfire or the LA5. For boom and zoom, slash and run type combat pick a P-51, F4U or FW190. Dont expect to take a B&Z plane into the realm of a T&B plane with good results.
Black outs start in the 4 to 5 G range and this has been discussed over and over on this bulletin board but I feel it to be a realistic start. The fact that you cannot feel the actual gravity involved makes it more difficult to know when the onset of the high G forces start to come in to play so we use the visual que's like the tunnel vision and G meter to indicate these to us. Since I don't spend my time looking at gauges while in combat I rely on the tunnel vision to give me the feedback I am looking for. Something to keep in mind too is if you are flying the Spitfire it is so maneuverable it can load up it's pilot and airframe with a lot of G's in a hurry!
On the matter of your joystick settings in the joystick setup: I use the graph at the bottom left to indicate how I want to set up my sliders. You will notice that when all the sliders are at the top, for each axis, you get a straight line from lower left to upper right. Belly this out. Start with about 25% up from the bottom on the first slider and make it look like a curve, somewhat flat on the bottom, going to the last slider. I use this on roll and pitch more so than on yaw. I start my yaw sliders from about 50% up from the bottom. Your graph needs to look like a loose fishing line on a pole more or less. Set this up and then make sure you fly it that way for about a day's worth of flying. After you have flown it that long and have gotten used to it, then adjust one thing at a time and fly for a while (several hours) before making another adjustment. You can use the damping adjustment to reduce the actual movement of the control surface relative to the input of the joystick. Set this to about 25% up from the bottom on all axis except yaw, set that one to about 10% up from the bottom. The reason I want my yaw axis more sensitive is to help me with ground handling and take off.
Hope this helps.
MarkAT
-
Haha,
I agree about the stall horn sound. However you can make a copy of it and reduce the volume using the Sound Recorder in Windows 95/98. Usually found in Start: Programs: Accessories: Entertainment or Multimedia.
A lot of pilots have had problems with the sensitivity of Aces High. I used to think it was a fault of my MS SW Pro 3d, (you know the old twisty stick by Micro$oft). After adjusting deadbands, damping and scaling of the stick inputs I found that you couldn't just wrench the plane about like I do in Warbirds.
All the fighters modelled, (perhaps with the exception of the Macchi c.205), are late war uber-planes. They require loads of Energy to fly and sometimes need to be treated with kid gloves in the midst of a fight. I was complimented 2 days ago on how well I retained Energy in the FW190. I didn't have a choise because the moment you push a 190 around the torque will kill you cause a stall and then you dead meat for the first dweeb that comes along. This is true of most planes currently modelled, (and especially true of the F4u just released). Even the N1K flies more like an energy fighter. When/if the Zero, (or my favorite the Ki43), are modeled I imagine the response you are expecting will be reflected in these planes and their handling.
In summary all I can say is scale your stick settings a little more and treat the planes with respect. When stress limits are modeled I can see a lot of pilots giving the stick a good old wrench and watching their fighter plummet to the deck "sans wing", (if they don't pass out from the g forces =).
Spotcha in the Air
-
I sometimes get the feeling that part of the "bouncey" response is due to "out of trim" conditions.
That is, when things get loose and bouncey, it seems to help if you can quickly slap on the autopilot, give it a second to square away the trim and then go back to hand flying. Usually, I don't have time to do this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Because of this, I wonder if it's really a Flight Model issue per se. I think it's more of a "trim model" issue, although I agree that trim figures into the FM.
This once again brings up the whole issue of autopilots in WW2 fighters, cockpit adjustable trim in fighters that didn't have it and the fact that trim is NOT a primary flight control.
But I'm not going there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's too nice a day!
-
I found the Warbirds flight model too "bouncey." Seemed like the nose was always bobbing up and down.
Probably a lot of the percieved bobbing and bouncing is as was mentioned by the previous poster: no matter how good your flight model physics are, you can't model the physical sensations of flight. The G-loading you would experience when jerking back on the stick at 300 would go a long way toward teaching the value of smoothness and moderation.
Another problem is the sticks we are using. My CH setup is not bad, but doesn't allow the small inputs you can get flying a real airplane, mainly because there is no feedback. Even the so called force feedback sticks only model what the programmer THINKS is the proper feedback for various situations.
I go into a real (DC8) simulator every six months and spend at least 4 hours a day for two or three days. The simulator is MUCH harder to fly than the real airplane because of all the factors I mentioned above. The cockpit is modeled perfectly, everything looks exactly like the airplane, sounds like the real airplane, etc. It just doesn't have the tactile feedback, and that messes people up.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that without a way to model G's and accurately feedback control forces, we will never have a perfect flight model. (Flight model meaning the whole flight sensation, not just the mathematical physics of airflow, etc.)
IMHO, the AH flight model is closer to the real sensation of flight than the Warbirds. The Falcon4 model is the most believable of all, to me.
org
-
Couldn't agree more Haha...have tried every combination of stick settings I can think of and still my stick is so sensitive in the pitch axis that i cannot enjoy flying the sim. Wish that it wern't so...oh well.
-
I was just about to say I find it bouncy as hell too, but I'm gonna log in and try again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
yup, very bouncy, fine tuning aim is next to impossible. Slight adjustments and I feel like I'm a pinball machine especially in zoom!
Now, I'm afraid to play with the stick dampening because of the loss of performance and I don't know how much difference it would make as far as nose bounce since the nose goes up and down the axis 2 times before settling anyhow.
Anyone figure it out yet?
-
A properly trimmed a/c will just about have no bounce. I use the zoom in all my engagments, and have no problem with the bouncy nose screwing up my aim unless I am out of trim. I use a CH Force Fx with the default stick settings, no adjustments to sliders, deadband or dampener. You just can't jerk on the stick. When Aces was first released, I used to black out left and right. Now I spend most of my dogfights in 'tunnel vision' using zoom! Small stick movements are the key, especially to conserve energy. If using all the adjustments available and adjusting your flying style does not help, possibly you need to get a different brand of stick. I've spent more money than I care to mention finding the right stick, throttle and rudder setup that works well for me.
ts
-
I have no bounce at all. Not sure why your getting it.Stick scaling might help..
-
Hmm the fact that you have no bounce at all concerns me WAY more than if everyone did have bounce.
I really really think AH might be heavily biased towards the biggest+most expensive+ fanciest joystick gear. I have a relatively inexpensive wingman extreme (logitech) which I just purchased and its fine for all games except AH. My joystick before this one was also inexpensive (Thrustmaster FCS) and it also bounced. Everyone who says it has no bounce seems to either have a force feedback stick or some other expensive joystick gear.
Is there anyone out there with an inexpensive stick that doesn't experience severe "control difficulties" ?
-
Try the spit WD. you,ll get bounce. The most wonderful thing about tiggers is.......
-
hmm... I really think that the bounciness depends of the FM because I get different feedbacks on different planes. Take the N1K2 for example. This kite flies like on railroads, I don't get any bouncing around at all. On the other hand the c.205 is very bouncy - I hardly get any good shots an enemy even if he is 200 yards in front of me. This bouncing is the main reason I switched to the George again although I really like the Macchi as a plane. I hope tweaking on the FM will help to get rid of that. As for this I really appreciate that HTC decided to stop popping out new planes and concentrates on tweaking the FM we already have!
Kirin out
-
The "bounce" may or may not be due to out-of-trim conditions. But it varies considerably from A/C to A/C.
From my experience, the 205 and 109 are the worst bouncers; the Stang, Hawg and La5 have less bounce (I've heard the George is good, but haven't tried it).
If you want to play with nose bounce, go offline, take the respective birds up and do the Homer Simpson "Jiggle" test -- trimmed level and at full throttle, take the auto off, and apply and remove (at different dampening speeds if you wish) full rudder. Measure the time it takes to stabilize. Now imagine having to make a precision movement to line up a bogey with the nose bouncing all over town.
This becomes important in a TnB situation when being able to point the nose in the right direction at slow speeds is critical. The macchi's all over the course; the la5 can hang on its props and spray.
-
HaHa.
I have a Logitech Wingman Extreme. The one with three 8 pos hats. I dont think I have the prob that you are describing. I can and do use zoom to target. If the bad guy is not evasive I will probably get him in one pass. I fly the FW most of the time. My only problem (other then competence) is stalling and warping. Particularly in the FW sometimes I cant figure out why I have stalled.
Hope you work it out.
-
TT if they give us the Spit 1a ill fly it. Just cant stand the thought of flying around with those uber cannons of yours (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for my stick,it the CH F16 Combat Stick and it just rocks. I have tryed my brothers Logitech and cant stand it.To sensitive,im not sure why but its the touchiest stick ive tryed. Think it may be digital,CH is analog..
-
I suffered from "bouncing" in the beginning with AH...although it will vary from plane to plane I've found it usually relates to using the auto pilot. Usually it is a result of autoclimb setting a "nose up" trim..and extreme airleon trim..later you exert stick force to nuetralize these settings. A sudden change in stick pressure and you "bounce" the nose. I'll now trim the nose heavy and back off the airleon trim as i enter a fight. Still have lots of problems with FM but bouncing is greatly reduced in all but the 205 (FM problem I think)
-
The old WB model was very bouncy. Same guys built this flight model, so... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, there are some guys who say this way is more realistic, some who say WB current modeling is closer, but either way, there should be a way to at least minimize the bounciness.
Make sure your joystick is calibrated properly, so that full deflection of the stick is shown as full deflection in the calibration routine. Reaching full "apparent" deflection before you reach full physical stick deflection will make the bounciness worse.
Do whatever you can to minimize spiking. This may mean polling WITH interrupts, it may mean polling WITHOUT interrupts, try it both ways. A good digital joystick PORT will help here (can't vouch for digital or USB sticks--haven't tried one).
Put your "dampener" sliders all the way UP. Run your stick deflection curves way DOWN. See what that does. It should make the plane REAL sluggish. Now work your way back down with the dampener until the plane moves about as you "expect" for the amount of stick deflection used. Once you get something that feels like an airplane to you, start moving the stick deflection curve sliders back up, starting at the right side. The goal is to be CAPABLE of full control deflection when you need it, while still maintaining fine control at high speed with small stick movements.
If you can't "create" an airplane that's WAY too twitchy at one extreme and WAY too sluggish at the other, I'd suspect either calibration or your joystick port is at fault (assuming a decent joystick to begin with of course).
--jedi
-
I have a CH Flight Stick, and no bounce, in any plane. I think WD is right, analog (good) vs. digital (bouncy)
personally i think CH products (stick, throttle, & peddels) are good for AH if anyone is looking for some open advise
RC
-
Ch F16 fighterstick, Pro Thottl and Pedals inot a GameCard III Auto and no bounce at all.
(not many kills either so I must be a smooth flying drone <G> )
-Westy
-
I noticed that the higher the altitude the greater the bounce effect becomes. I am starting to feel this is very accurate, but as usual I really have no clue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
-
It seems to be mainly in the pitch axis and what i see happening is you pull a deflection on the stick when you lessen that deflection the plane doesn't sink smoothly and cleanly to the new deflection it oscilates around the point of the new deflection. Wheather or not this is realistic i don't know but it don't help my gunnary.
-
Alright guys.....I have the solution to your problems, however, I cannot share it with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I will give you a clue tho....ready....here it comes....
A Hardware Device must be purchased!
If I simply spilled the beans, all could kill me faster and that would not be a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Ice Out!
-
Well a perfect example of my bounce problem can be shown even without using the stick. Take your plane (say a p51) and put it at a high climb angle, say 30degrees or so.. such that its climbing but not losing too much speeded. Then hit "x".. the plane will bounce up and down, up and down before it levels out. This is exactly what happens with my stick controls.. bounces up and down, up and down.
-
Hi HaHa, I was wondering when someone was going to speak up and say what you have. I do not believe that the flying characteristics of the planes has anything to do with your joystick as long as it is a good functional stick. I do believe that it is the flight model that is very weird and hard to get used to. I also fly real aircraft and simulators and I have NEVER had either fly the strange way that the AH aircraft do. I am trying really hard to enjoy this sim. and I do have patience with such a new product, but I must admit that sometimes I get frustrated and just go fly ANYTHING else to get aircraft that fly in a somewhat normal fashion! Just my humble opinions but I just had to tell somebody to get it off my chest!
-
To me it flies exactly like pre 2.0 warbirds.
And Im seeing the exact same posts in this NG as used to be on AGW. "Ohh its ur stick heres the fix"
Its not the stick! its the Flight Model
Now how did they change it before? The AC were too stable or somthing like that I heard.
I dont know whats right. Never flown any kinda real plane.
Hi tech when you flew that Stang was it bouncy like this?
-
There's a thread on AGW regarding real ww2 mustang pilot who tried WB over the holiday weekend. He's said that there's too much nose bounce (that was his first impression). AH is even bouncier than WB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It could be the travel on our j-sticks, but when I talk about nose bounce I talk about how many times the nose of the a/c passes through the axis before settling once you fereze j stick movement.
-
If I were doing a simulation at work, and I saw something like that, I would check my integration algorithm.
-
The strange thing (and I do mean strange) is that some people say.. I have no bounce I don't know what your talking about. Maddog I believe is one who posted that on the thread. It makes me wonder what is:
1) going on with the joystick code?
2) going on with these special sticks some of these people are using?
Maybe its computer speed as well? If your computer can't calculate fast enough you get a weird "oscillation" problem? I have a PII266, anyone with a machine similar to (or less than) that have no bounce problem?
One test which I posted (2-3 posts earlier) and I think is an EXCELLENT test is do the following:
- aim aircraft up (p51 say) at 30 degree angle so that it is flying at a constant speed.
- hit shift-x, let go of stick
- then hit x twice (i.e. level it without using the stick)
On my machine the plane bounces crazy like tell it finally levels off.. it actually even blacks out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and does a bunch of stall sounds as well. This is ALL without using the stick.. thus is my computer incapable of calculating fast enough? do I have some floating point error hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Remember guys just because a plane flies horrible doesn't mean it's more realistic ;0
Also remember this is BETA we are suppose to be improving the flight model.
[This message has been edited by HaHa (edited 12-08-1999).]
-
If you think it might be a joystick problem, sheeze, try using keyboard rudders.( I have my rudders programmed onto the ANT knob on my TQS) Picture if you will that you finally get advantage on the nme and you need to move that gunsight just a touch to the left for the perfect 6 shoot, touch the rudders one (1) uno click and boing boing boing, the gunsight is jumping around like me after eating Ma Renfro's(SP) salsa.
Even getting off the ground can be a pain. Just one touch to the rudder key is not enough, two clicks, WAY too much, so I correct and now Im draggin a wing, slamming into barracks, fuel dumps, innocent onlookers, perhaps pushing baby strollers. The guilt I feel when I log off sometimes gives me insomnia.
At least for my mental health, the rudder bounce needs to be looked at.
Gimp
-
Well, unless HT is using a completely "new" flight modeling system, the nose bounce IS a product of the flight model. The way the old explanation went, IIRC, if the airplanes are made to be "stable," (i.e. more resistant to spin and snap roll) then they become "bouncy." When they put in the more macho spin modeling in WB 2.0, the nose bounce was decreased significantly.
So, it may be that the problem will solve itself as the flight model is tuned to the next degree of difficulty. Or it could be that this model is completely different from HT's earlier model and I'm completely out to lunch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Either way, the only thing WE can do is tweak the joystick settings. At one time I had the OLD WB (pre 2.0) nose bounce pretty well minimized (and I know I had it as bad as anyone before that). The stuff to try:
--Clean your joystick pots
--Try another joystick port
--Try both digital and analog ports and sticks
--Use a third party calibrator, such as TM's ProPanel (www.thrustmaster.com). It works on generic sticks and CH as well as TM gear.
--Trial and error adjusting of dampener and stick throw curves.
--Try "polling with interrupts" in Windows controller setup.
--Try "polling withOUT interrupts" in Windows controller setup.
The biggest thing to check, tho, is that your controllers work "normally" in Windows. That's the baseline you MUST start from. If you get ANY spiking, you're just asking for nose bounce. Spiking in the Windows calibration is PROBABLY a joystick problem (i.e. worn or dirty pots). Fix that first. Then try calibrating with a good third-party utility. Then reduce your stick response in the sim so that small stick movement produces small aircraft movement. Then increase dampening so that it "feels" right to you. Then gradually tweak the actual curves so you can get full control response at some point. It goes without saying that you should be using the same airplane for all this testing. You may find that you need completely different curves for the Spit IX and Corsair, for example.
None of the planes I've flown are quite as bouncy as the old WB or the new AH. But you should be able to tweak a decent joystick/port combo to minimize the worst of the bounce.
Don't expect to get it right quickly tho. It takes a combination of tweaking and practicing with it to "defeat" nose bounce. Try flying with two fingers, and using the keyboard to fire guns instead of the stick trigger.
I know, I know, "stopgap measures" at best, but if they decide to leave the flight model unchanged in this area, it's about all you can do.
--jedi
-
For anyone that is having bouncing problems using a joystick with a turn-handle rudder system, I managed to lessen it quite a bit by tinkering with the joystick setup in game. At least with my MS precision pro in the default setup I had significant rudder movement in the tiny distance I could turn the handle in the middle (rudder-neutral) position before the spring resistance kicked in. This would cause my plane's nose to yo-yo all over the place whenever putting the slightest pressure on the joystick.
What I did to correct this is to up the yaw damping to about 80%. This keeps the rudders from moving unless I am actively turning the handle. I don't think this is a complete solution, but it has helped considerably.
Lance
-
didnt read all the replys, so many but i read the first couple and thought id add my 2 cents. planes out of trim are infact very " bouncy " the soulution in real life and i use it here ,is : trim nose down and hold the planes nose up with your stick. if the planes is trimed nose up and is flying level it is very hard to control. and when im doing my preflight check one of the main things i check is the stall horn. i wouldn't ride in plane that didnt give me plenty of loud and unmistakable warning that i was about to depart from controled flight ( military term for stall ). and belive me "snap naps" are much more a concern in real tactical military planes, then in this, or any sim ive seen. we are all blessed with near super human abilitys as far a G tolerance in sims. in real life you cant be sure of what your tolerance is going to be that day. some days 4 or 5 gs for a few seconds beats you to death and some times you can pull 7. Gs do beat you up. they wear you out,break blood vessels in your eyes,give you vericose veins in your wrists and ankles, and stains in your shorts. the more tired you get the lower your tolerance.and waking up from a "snap nap" is akin to waking up in the drivers seat of your car going down the hiway. stall horns and blackouts are on diferant ends of the perfomance envelope. as your speed and alt approach the maximum the envelope can and does get very tight. i like the supended from rubber bands analogy - had a flight instructor tell me that flying a phantom at altitude was going to be like sitting on a bicycle that wasnt moving.