Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rude on September 29, 2003, 11:15:33 PM
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That we could remove Sadams regime, restore peace to the whole of Iraq, establish a constitution, conduct free elections by the Iraqi people, restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues and exit the country, all in 4-6 months?
For me personally, I kinda took Bush at what he said as well as common sense telling me that this would be a long and tough road....some of you seem to believe it was to be painless and without sacrifice....imagine that.
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I lost the office pool... I had 23 days, 16 1/2 hours. :(
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american troops have been in germany 55yrs, japan 55yrs , korea 50 yrs, confederate states of america for about 140 yrs.
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I believe it's spelled HERE. Did ya believe we would find those WMD as well?
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Originally posted by john9001
american troops have been in germany 55yrs, japan 55yrs , korea 50 yrs, confederate states of america for about 140 yrs.
Your point?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Your point?
oh! oh! I know! I know!
4 to 6 months is an incredibly short time! a virtual eyeblink!
Did I get it right John9001? Did I?
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the point is that no we aren't going to get out of iraq cheap or soon. just one more reason why we shouldn't have gone at all. I got 171 other reasons too.
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Comparisons with Germany, Japan, or South Korea are no more relevant than comparisons with Vietnam.
...but that's just my opinion.
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why are we there at all again?
ohh yea wmd.
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WMD? Just what is WMD? We were there to free the opressed Iraqi puppies damn you!
At the end of the day the re-building of Iraq was secondary to the disarmament and destruction of Iraq's alledged WMD. No-one realistically expects the rebuilding to be done overnight - but let's not lose sight of the primary goal of the intervention; security from WMD proliferation.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I believe it's spelled HERE. Did ya believe we would find those WMD as well?
You're right...my point is invalid....correction made...I'm waiting for your answer.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the point is that no we aren't going to get out of iraq cheap or soon. just one more reason why we shouldn't have gone at all. I got 171 other reasons too.
Well if it's so obvious, then why all of the suprise by so many?
Politics ya think?
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No one believed it Rude. At least no one that gave it more than 5 minutes of thought. Those clamoring "quagmire" do so only to discredit Bush to further their political agenda.
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I never believed it for a minute.
According to the architects of this war:
"Indeed, the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."
They have no intention of creating a democracy, then leaving Iraq to the Iraqis. There is too much at stake.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
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Well if it's so obvious, then why all of the suprise by so many?
Politics ya think?
no suprise at all.
you see about a year ago we started screaming-"don't do it, it's a mistake, there's no conection to 9/11, focus on the war on terror, we have no time/money for this diversion"
now that we have had the war the above statement is pointless, it's just too late. so now we scream-"you dumba**, we told you not to do this, we're all **cked now, and here's why"
more of a "I told you so, now what are you gonna do to fix it, and how much is that gonna cost me on top of this"
than any sort of suprise. no those of us who where saying not to do it aren't really suprised at all by this outcome, maybe some people who where nieve enough to think this was a good idea where fooled.
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Of course it will take time Rude. But why are we making excuses for the initial act of war now? We went to war because we though there was a significant and impending threat to our country (from WMD). Kind of moral hypocrisy to ignore that dontcha think?
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Rude: That we could remove Sadams regime, restore peace to the whole of Iraq, establish a constitution, conduct free elections by the Iraqi people, restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues and exit the country, all in 4-6 months?
Why couldn't we "conduct free elections by the Iraqi people" right now and let them "establish a constitution"?
Why do we need to keep an army there in order to "restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues"?
miko
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^ You already know the answer! I'm sure you'll try to put some sort of spin on it thou.
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Initially I think I hoped it would be a quick thing, go in and liberate, turn over control. I guess 6 months wouldn't have seemed unreasonable. But when I considered the deep seated hatred among many middle easterners toward the US I realized it would be naive to think we could just topple Saddam and then leave. I believe we're gonna hafta topple another government or two before we're done. War has been declared and it is with those that support those that would actively destroy us.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Rude: That we could remove Sadams regime, restore peace to the whole of Iraq, establish a constitution, conduct free elections by the Iraqi people, restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues and exit the country, all in 4-6 months?
Why couldn't we "conduct free elections by the Iraqi people" right now and let them "establish a constitution"?
Why do we need to keep an army there in order to "restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues"?
miko
Maybe there are some folks outside of Iraq who don't want to see that happen?
Stability ring necessary to achieve those goals in your book?
I can't believe some of what you guys post
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of course it will take time Rude. But why are we making excuses for the initial act of war now? We went to war because we though there was a significant and impending threat to our country (from WMD). Kind of moral hypocrisy to ignore that dontcha think?
Who among the Bush crew has denied that we went to war because of a percieved threat?
What excuses and by whom MT?
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as stated before..
history will show Iraq was the right move at the right time .. not the hand wringing media and the dumacrat bush haters of today
and if we don't build/relocate military bases into Iraq, we are dumber than dirt...
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Whoa, we're 'occupying' the 'Confederate States of America'?
You lost, get over it.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Initially I think I hoped it would be a quick thing, go in and liberate, turn over control. I guess 6 months wouldn't have seemed unreasonable. But when I considered the deep seated hatred among many middle easterners toward the US I realized it would be naive to think we could just topple Saddam and then leave. I believe we're gonna hafta topple another government or two before we're done. War has been declared and it is with those that support those that would actively destroy us.
Damn straight... in three or four decades the Iraqi people will grow to love the U.S. ;)
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Originally posted by Rude
For me personally, I kinda took Bush at what he said as well as common sense telling me that this would be a long and tough road....some of you seem to believe it was to be painless and without sacrifice....imagine that.
I knew it was going to be a long fight. Although I was in agreement with this administrations position regarding the need to remove Sadam from power, I never thought that WMD should have been the reason pushed by Bush and Co. There was no imminent danger and indeed we are prosecuting an elective war instead, something that, IMO, this administration knew they couldn't 'sell' to the American nor the International public.
The lessons of occupation and democratic conversion of a region of the world that we aren't welcome in has been lost to this administration.
The smarter route would have been to use the international good will we were recieving after the tragedy of 9/11 to our advantage in getting overwhelming international support for persuing the goal of defeating terrorism.
The arrogant and dismisive attitude that the Bush administration had and still has toward the international community is an embarrasment, the 'with us or against us' attitude only feeds the WWF mentality that seems to prevail in the administrations die hard supporters and certainly doesn't make the job in the international arena any easier.
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There isn't enough stability for free elections yet. I believe it will happen, but not for a while, I bet.
AFAIC, its moot. We really do need to have a permanent American presence over there. Its strategically obvious. I think its the best way to keep mom and the apple pie safe back here in America. Take the focus to Al-Queda and the rest of Muslim extremists over there. Think of it as a move on a chess board.
Is it right? Is it fair? Is it moral? Were motives sexed-up because they couldn't take the risk that the actual reasons for invading Iraq would fail to overcome partisan or popular objections? I don't really care.
We are being attacked, and Muslim extremists haven't been shy about about telling us why - its because of who we are. OBL and others want a clash of civilizations. We need to advance some force over there, export some democracy, and hopefully influence some of the cultural factors that breed terrorism. I can understand the need to do this, and I can understand the political need to sugar coat it.
I also believe that the international community will help us over there. Its necessary to democratize in that area. You don't hear France clamoring for Islamic rule in Iraq.
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Originally posted by MrLars
I knew it was going to be a long fight. Although I was in agreement with this administrations position regarding the need to remove Sadam from power, I never thought that WMD should have been the reason pushed by Bush and Co. There was no imminent danger and indeed we are prosecuting an elective war instead, something that, IMO, this administration knew they couldn't 'sell' to the American nor the International public.
The lessons of occupation and democratic conversion of a region of the world that we aren't welcome in has been lost to this administration.
The smarter route would have been to use the international good will we were recieving after the tragedy of 9/11 to our advantage in getting overwhelming international support for persuing the goal of defeating terrorism.
The arrogant and dismisive attitude that the Bush administration had and still has toward the international community is an embarrasment, the 'with us or against us' attitude only feeds the WWF mentality that seems to prevail in the administrations die hard supporters and certainly doesn't make the job in the international arena any easier.
HEY!!!! You best leave the WWF outta this pal...or else!!!
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Rude: Stability ring necessary to achieve those goals in your book?
I can't believe some of what you guys post
US was screwing up with that region for the last 80 years - toppling governments (including in both Iran and Iraq), installing puppet regimes, supporting oppressive dictators, supplying and training fundamentalist terrorists.
Hadn't brought us much stability so far.
Gunthr: We are being attacked, and Muslim extremists haven't been shy about about telling us why - its because of who we are. OBL and others want a clash of civilizations.
And how would you now what they are saying? Did you read any sources or listen to Al-Jaseera?
miko
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Originally posted by Rude
Who among the Bush crew has denied that we went to war because of a percieved threat?
What excuses and by whom MT?
I agree, the Bush admin is sticking to the WMD line. There are many on this BBS however, that spout the following.
"it doesn't matter if there were WMD, aren't the Iraqi's better off?"
"Have you seen the mass graves?"
"Saddam was a bad guy... nuff said."
(those kind of excuses)
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midnight Target: "Have you seen the mass graves?"
That was a smart move on the US administration part, wouldn't you agree?
Incite a whole bunch of fundamental Iran-sympathising shia militants to rebell against their government in the time of war.
Abandon them to be slaughtered by the government troops.
Use them as an example of oppression of helpless civilians instead of having to kill them ourselves.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
wouldn't you agree?
miko
ummm, nope.
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We will likely need to leave Iraq to use our resources in other endeavors. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=1&u=/nm/20030930/wl_nm/korea_north_dc
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I dont recall WMDs being the sole and exclusive reason the Bush admin sought and was given by congress the authourity to use whatever means necessary to create a saddam free Iraq. The fact that WMDs have not been found is disturbing to me but in no way cancels out the other sound reasons for removing hussein.
In my opinion people that are pro clinton anti bush are as narrow minded as the pro bush anti clinton crowd. and the canadians here have less clout than the french by a magnitude of 10, as far as Im concerned, and are merely polluting their own vast empty space at no ones expense.
The absolute worst thing that americans can do now is withdraw from Iraq leaving it in chaos. The Clinton-ites really seem to want this badly, for the sole purpose of humiliating the Bush-ites. Extremely bad form.
I swear to God if america screws up this Iraq affair I will abandon my patriotism once and for all.
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The Clinton-ites really seem to want this badly,
name one.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Why couldn't we "conduct free elections by the Iraqi people" right now and let them "establish a constitution"?
Why do we need to keep an army there in order to "restore the infrastructure, rebuild the economy, riemburse ourselves thru oil revenues"?
miko
We know you are incredibly one-eyed about anything involving the US miko, but even you're not stupid enough to ignore the news reports of bombings and attacks by remaining elements of Saddams regieme... or are you?
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Gunthr: We are being attacked, and Muslim extremists haven't been shy about about telling us why - its because of who we are. OBL and others want a clash of civilizations.
And how would you now what they are saying? Did you read any sources or listen to Al-Jaseera?
miko
Yes, have read sources and Al-Jaseera. Al-Jaseera is actually relatively moderate for being a muslim news agency. My sources come and go as the FBI or the ISP shuts them down from the internet and then later they pop up elsewhere. I have fairly extensive knowledge of the Muslim extremist's deen. I have had a great curiosity as to why the mujahadeen want to kill you, Miko.
The FBI or ISP shut this one down. Looking for links to show you, I find its back in operation:
Youth of Islam (http://forums.clearguidance.com/index.php?s=) I am registered on this site as MrManners and Khamis, and about a dozen other names at different times. I've had many private message discussions with people who want to kill Miko.
Some others:
Shia (http://http://www.shianews.com/index.php)
Salaam/UK (http://www.salaam.co.uk/)
This one currently stillshut down:
Taliban News (http://WWW.TALIBAN-NEWS.COM)
Conspiricys Against Islam (http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid//muslimarticles/conspiracies.html)
I have too many to bother copying. You can google it, they are not hard to find. I've seen video after video of killings, as in the Pearl murder, live ambushes in Chechnya and elsewhere, piles and piles of dead majahudeen in India, Pakistan, and all over the middle east, I've heard Dua from famous clerics with the translations, OSL's own words... etc.
Make dua, Miko inshalla you will find the deen.
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No one doubts the war, saddam is gone, good.
Now you tell me we need to stay there several years so "outsiders" will not topple their weak government. But if we stay there several years, leave, and their government still gets overthrown, what have we accomplished?
Miko makes a great point, we have been there 80 years, and what have we created? A bitter hatred towards us. Now we are going to be there several more years. Great.
OBL lives and breathes in Pakistan. What happened to "we will make no distinction between terrorists and the people who harbor them"? Maybe the GPS system had a snafu and pointed to Iraq? Now OBL is off the hook while we secure iraqi oil and "save" it's people. How this turned from get OBL to get Iraq is beyond me.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I swear to God if america screws up this Iraq affair I will abandon my patriotism once and for all.
Hmmm. Cant be a true patriot if your willing to abandon it on one issue.
Patriot n. one who loves his country and upholds its interests.
Patriotism n. love for, and loyalty to, ones country.
Seems your willing to sell your soul pretty cheap there Yeager.
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Originally posted by Eagler
as stated before..
history will show Iraq was the right move at the right time .. not the hand wringing media and the dumacrat bush haters of today
and if we don't build/relocate military bases into Iraq, we are dumber than dirt...
Just like Soviet "international assistance" and a "limited contingent" in Democratic Republic of Afghanistan...
:rolleyes:
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closer to the action .. kill them on their own continent, fine by me
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Boroda,
Except US is doing far better in Afganistan than SU and is there with a better purpose.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Boroda,
Except US is doing far better in Afganistan than SU and is there with a better purpose.
It is not over yet, it has just started