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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 10:01:48 AM

Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 10:01:48 AM
...from Nazi Germany?


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20031001/ts_nm/mideast_dc_5
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 10:10:47 AM
Guess not...

Some fun tidbits:

"All we are trying to do is first and foremost to provide security for the people that live there," he told Reuters. ---Discussing why they are building the wall around a settlement that sits 12 mils into the west bank...

Errrmmm..maybe there should be no settlement at all, therefore requiring no protection? Who lives in these damn things anyway? I know I would not move there.

A report compiled for the United Nations (news - web sites) and released on Tuesday called it "an unlawful act of annexation" which would cut off tens of thousands of Palestinians.---

Uh-Oh...the UN will fix it! I'll take 26 resolutions, 12 years, and 3 shouting matches before they condemn the action.

I can't decide who want peace less...The Palastinians or the Israelis. No blood for oil? How about NO blood for real estate?
Title: Re: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sikboy on October 01, 2003, 10:33:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
[Didn't they learn anything] from Nazi Germany?


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20031001/ts_nm/mideast_dc_5


The Nazi's built a wall?

-Sik
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Westy on October 01, 2003, 10:35:30 AM
Sure did.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/WarsawGhetto/WarsawGhetto05.html
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Fishu on October 01, 2003, 10:37:49 AM
Muckmaw,

As long as US is using it's veto right in UN to save Israelis, the UN isn't going to do much.
So don't go faulting UN, when US goverment is the one vetoing for Israel every now and then.

You should rather ask why in the hell is the US goverment supporting Israelis this far and not giving them the ultimatum already.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sikboy on October 01, 2003, 10:42:58 AM
Ok, so this wall in Israel is to keep the Palistinians in the wests bank, not keep them out of Israel?

I guess it doesn't matter which side of the wall you were on, but at first glance I didn't really buy the parrallels to the Warsaw Ghetto (or even the Berlin Wall) which were erected to keep a certain population within the confines of the wall, whereas in the current case, they would be used to keep someone out.

I suppose the only real difference though, is that The West Bank will most likely always have a non-walled border on the Jordan.

But I can see the parallel a bit better now.

-Sik
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 10:44:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Muckmaw,

As long as US is using it's veto right in UN to save Israelis, the UN isn't going to do much.
So don't go faulting UN, when US goverment is the one vetoing for Israel every now and then.

You should rather ask why in the hell is the US goverment supporting Israelis this far and not giving them the ultimatum already.


And if the US did not veto....then what would the UN do?

Come one, Fish, admit it..we all know they have no teeth.

Meanwhile, I don't need to ask why we support Israel. It's a simple matter of pandering to the Jewish vote in the USA.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: nuchpatrick on October 01, 2003, 10:46:07 AM
I tell ya these guy's are going to wipe themselfs out at this rate.

If they could get Arafat outta there I think things would go much more smoother.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Heater on October 01, 2003, 11:00:07 AM
Nuke Israel:mad:
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: gofaster on October 01, 2003, 11:03:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by nuchpatrick
I tell ya these guy's are going to wipe themselfs out at this rate.

If they could get Arafat outta there I think things would go much more smoother.


Not really.  Arafat can't control the various factions.

I would suspect that there will always be friction until the matter is decided by one side annhilating the other.  The Arabs had their shot at wiping out the Israelis back in the '50s and '60s in military combat, but instead of getting beat back, the Israelis actually gained more territory.  If a shooting war started today, the Israelis would most likely emerge victorious, even without US military assistance.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 11:05:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw

Meanwhile, I don't need to ask why we support Israel. It's a simple matter of pandering to the Jewish vote in the USA.



This isn't entirely correct. There are fundamental Christian reasons to support Israel. They are the chosen people of God.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Thrawn on October 01, 2003, 11:15:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Ok, so this wall in Israel is to keep the Palistinians in the wests bank, not keep them out of Israel?



No, the wall is there to keep Palistinians out of Palistine.  The walls isn't just in Isreal.

"JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's government approved on Wednesday the next stage of a vast barrier it is building in the West Bank, despite international criticism that it cuts deep into Palestinian territory and undermines peace moves. "
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 12:09:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This isn't entirely correct. There are fundamental Christian reasons to support Israel. They are the chosen people of God.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml


SANDMAN-

GREAT ARTICLE!!!

Everyone should read it. These people, the Christiam Fundamentalists and their leader Falwell, are frightening.

Once again, read this article, and see what religion can do to some people. It's scary.

“It’s not good for the Jews. It’s not good for the Jews," says Alfer. We have to get God out of this conflict if we’re going to have any chance to survive as a healthy, secure Jewish state."---amen, brutha!
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 12:30:12 PM
I think many millions of them learned of cruelty from the Nazis, though I haven't heard of any gas chambers in Israel.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 12:32:37 PM
Read that article, Iron.

Theres more than a few folks in Israel and many Christians here in the USA who would like to work out their own "Final Solution".

So far they are just talking about moving the arabs to countries that will take 'em. Is'nt that how the Nazi's started?
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 01:10:56 PM
I read some of it.

I just think it's a very lame comparison. Let's see, the nazi's walled in the jews because of the frequent suicide bombings creating continual fear and disrupting their lives, right? Of course the one's in the death camps would liked very much to have stayed behind those walls I would imagine.

And the Israeli's are building this wall why?

I don't think there's a middle eastern country there that hasn't wanted to see Israel destroyed. Many of them have tried to do so, launching unprovoked surprise attacks.

Sure, Israel was granted the land by the UN out of a sense of guilt. Imo it was guilt well earned.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 01:29:44 PM
Iron-

I'm having a hard time seeing the comparison between Israel and Nazi germany as well, but aside from the title of the thread, it is an interesting discussion. I especially enjoyed that article.

There was a passage toward the end, where I could almost hear the whispers of a "Final solution".

If you did not read the whole article, please do when you get some time. It's worth it.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Rude on October 01, 2003, 01:31:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This isn't entirely correct. There are fundamental Christian reasons to support Israel. They are the chosen people of God.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml


Thank You.

You keep this up and I'll be obligated to buy ya a Coke at the con:)
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: gofaster on October 01, 2003, 01:39:37 PM
I'm still seeing Henry Gibson as an Illinois Nazi and I just can't get the picture out of my head.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 01:40:30 PM
I'll read it Muck. I did mean the comparison made by this thread rather than the article. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what this thread was created to do? Compare Israel's actions with Nazi Germany's?
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 01:42:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Thank You.

You keep this up and I'll be obligated to buy ya a Coke at the con:)



Well... I didn't say I agreed with it. I am, afterall, a godless heathen. :)
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 01:52:10 PM
Ok Muck, I finished it, and as I thought after reading only part, it's full of sensationalistic hyperbole.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 01:55:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Well... I didn't say I agreed with it. I am, afterall, a godless heathen. :)


That's what these :rolleyes: are for. So we can know when you're being sarcastic. :rolleyes:
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: gofaster on October 01, 2003, 02:42:01 PM
While we're on the subject of Nazis, was there an overreaction to a high school marching band's performance?

I wonder how they teach world history in a classroom without saying the words "Nazi", "Hitler", and depicting a swastika.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20031001/od_nm/life_nazi_dc
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 02:45:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
While we're on the subject of Nazis, was there an overreaction to a high school marching band's performance?


Hard to say, wasn't there.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: midnight Target on October 01, 2003, 02:53:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Ok, so this wall in Israel is to keep the Palistinians in the wests bank, not keep them out of Israel?

I guess it doesn't matter which side of the wall you were on, but at first glance I didn't really buy the parrallels to the Warsaw Ghetto (or even the Berlin Wall) which were erected to keep a certain population within the confines of the wall, whereas in the current case, they would be used to keep someone out.

I suppose the only real difference though, is that The West Bank will most likely always have a non-walled border on the Jordan.

But I can see the parallel a bit better now.

-Sik


The real parallel here is with this post and a fine chum line leading to a juicy mackeral on a #2 treble hook.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 02:57:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
That's what these :rolleyes: are for. So we can know when you're being sarcastic. :rolleyes:



I don't understand. The article highlights the motivation of the fundamentalist Christians and Bush for their support of Israel. While I may disagree with the motivation for it, I can't deny the existence of this belief.


WRT the wall... Maybe it's a thin parallel, but it just struck me that Nazi Germany systematically separated a certain segment of thier population not only away from the Germans, but also from each other.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Siaf__csf on October 01, 2003, 02:58:27 PM
AKIron - no they don't gas them in gas chambers. They prefer to bulldoze the appartment buildings while families live inside them. However BBC has reported experimental attacks on a new type of 'teargas' that causes violent convulsions to the exposed. The type of the gas hasn't been released to the medical community - so no antidote is available.

Israel has not signed the treaty against biochemical warfare (meaning they possess and develop WMD) and they have a sizable amount of nuclear weapons.

The death ratio is about 700 israelis killed for 2000 palestinians.

From the looks of it, Israelis are repeating the mistakes of their own past and their own enemies. The wall around palestinians can't be called anything but a modern ghetto. Probably they'll require them to wear shirts marked P on them next. :eek:
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sandman on October 01, 2003, 03:02:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
From the looks of it, Israelis are repeating the mistakes of their own past and their own enemies. The wall around palestinians can't be called anything but a modern ghetto. Probably they'll require them to wear shirts marked P on them next. :eek:



Exactly!
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Sikboy on October 01, 2003, 03:08:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Israel has not signed the treaty against biochemical warfare (meaning they possess and develop WMD) and they have a sizable amount of nuclear weapons.


There's a treaty againsst biochemical warfare? Why didn't anyone tell me?!?!
(seriously, there's no such treaty).

There are actually two treaties, the BWC and CWC. Israel has signed the CWC (Chemical Weapons convention) but not the BWC (Biological Weapons Convention).

However, by and large you are correct, as they never got around to ratifying the CWC.

[edit] I supposes you could be talking about the Geneva Protocal, but that's not really fair lol


-Sik
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2003, 03:10:00 PM
I misunderstood your post Sandman.

Bulldozing homes with families in them? How sure are you of this? And if it did happen are you saying it happened with no warning to the occupants to leave prior? I'm not saying it's ok to bulldoze a home with children inside but there is a dramatic difference between warning someone to leave prior to 'dozing and rounding them up and gassing them.


Isn't there?
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: gofaster on October 01, 2003, 03:51:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
AKIron - no they don't gas them in gas chambers. They prefer to bulldoze the appartment buildings while families live inside them.


I know the photos to which you're refering, and it was proven to be propoganda. If you do and you look closely, you'll notice that (a) the sun's position has changed, indicating that quite a few hours have passed, and (b) the background has changed slightly, which indicates that the bulldozer has been moved.

(edit: I found the link - http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Mar-21-03.htm )
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Tarmac on October 01, 2003, 05:18:12 PM
Those don't even look like the same bulldozer.  Look at the placement of lights on the roof.  

Not to mention the background is quite different between the two photos.  It's pretty obvious to me that those pictures weren't taken right after each other, as popularly represented.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: Scootter on October 01, 2003, 06:51:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
Those don't even look like the same bulldozer.  Look at the placement of lights on the roof.  

Not to mention the background is quite different between the two photos.  It's pretty obvious to me that those pictures weren't taken right after each other, as popularly represented.


same dozer, the lights are mounted on the lifts and go up and down with the blade, they are not on the roof (cab) of the dozer.

The time of day, location, forground, and background are however all differant and were not even close to taken at the same time.

edit to post... I think you may be right, look at the guard mounted on top of the blade the vert. parts seem closer together on one blade then the other. the lights are articulated to the blade lifts and go up and down.
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: OIO on October 01, 2003, 06:54:54 PM
"As long as US is using it's veto right in UN to save Israelis, the UN isn't going to do much.

So don't go faulting UN, when US goverment is the one vetoing for Israel every now and then"

THATS RIGHT!

Now lets sit back and wait for France to invade Israel.

:D :D
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: muckmaw on October 01, 2003, 07:41:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
"As long as US is using it's veto right in UN to save Israelis, the UN isn't going to do much.

So don't go faulting UN, when US goverment is the one vetoing for Israel every now and then"

THATS RIGHT!

Now lets sit back and wait for France to invade Israel.

:D :D


We gonna be here a while...
Title: Didn't they learn anything
Post by: lord dolf vader on October 01, 2003, 07:54:01 PM
sad situation.

cuttin all support to isreal is the only answer.

they are a religious state. their religion is their problem.