Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: eddiek on October 02, 2003, 02:58:20 PM
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This week we return to the South Pacific.
Guadalcanal has been taken, and the USN and IJN have withdrawn their fleets to lick their wounds after several savage and costly battles.
The focus this week is on the air battles fought between the Japanese air forces and the U.S. Army Air Force in the SW Pacific in late 1943 and early 1944.
Thus......no naval units (ships) will be enabled for either side. All naval vessels will be made neutral and moved to the far corners of the map.
The Slot map does not have the Japanese stronghold of Rabaul included, which is a shame as it was a primary focus of Allied forces as they attempted to move closer to Japan.
The plane/vehicle sets:
Japanese:
A6M2
A6M5b
B5N
D3A1
Ki-61 (available at rear bases initially, moved forward as the week progresses.....this is to reflect their general rarity in the theater at this time)
Ki-67
C-47
M-3
M-16
M-8
LVT's
USAAF:
A-20G
SBD (A-24 in USAAF terminology)
P-40E
P-38L-0 (perked at 10 points to represent rarity in theater at the time period) available only from rear bases at the start of the setup BUT made available at more bases or moved forward as the week progresses
C-47
M-3
M-16
M-8
LVT's
As stated above, the front will be setup more to the northwest than in previous setups to reflect the US's successful invasion and capture of Guadalcanal.
Also, please read closely the descriptions of aircraft deployment:
The Lightning and Tony will be enabled at rear bases only at first, but I will enable them at more and more forward bases as the week progresses. I was toying with the idea of having the Lighinings perk points removed as the week progressed to indicate that it was more and more common as time went by, but that would be a LOT of work for Skuzzy, so the perk cost will remain in place through out the setup. Only change that I will make is to enable the Lightning at more bases.
Now, as Sabre told me in the CT Staff forum, this is an imperfect setup, but all the major players are represented for both the IJAAF/IJN and the USAAF.
The A6M5b is faster than the A6M3 which was in service at the time, but I added it add flavor and a touch of equality to the planesets.
Initially, I expect to see mostly Zeroes against P-40's, which was pretty much what you would have seen had you been there. Later, there will be more Ki-61's and P-38 matchups.
Everyone's perk points will be reset to ZERO tomorrow to allow everyone to build perks from scratch again.
Tomorrow's setup will begin at or around 9AM CDT to allow Skuzzy to reset everyone's perks. Once he has done that, I will set the arena and open it up for your enjoyment.
PS--To those who want to see the Hawgs in action, wait til my next setup, please. This is a USAAF versus the Japanese setup.........your time is coming, I promise. ;)
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hmmmmm,sounds good to me.
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Originally posted by eddiek
Everyone's perk points will be reset to ZERO tomorrow to allow everyone to build perks from scratch again.
Could the CM team please consider perking at least 1 ride for roughly 5 to 10 perks in each category every single map?
For instance and this is just a rough quick example using the last setup in Germany.
P-38L 10 perks
110G2 5 perks
Ostwinds both sides 5 perks
Lancasters 10 perks
Ju-88s 10 perks
The primary goal is of course to make it possible for the CMs to not worry about having everyones perks reset. A secondary effect would be the removal of the suicide JABO/Bomber attacks or the insane everyone has an Ostwind base defenses. Generally I suspect that this would keep everyones available perks at a reasonable level.
As it is everytime my favorite ride(s) come up I first have to do something silly to be able to fly them. For instance expect me to be flying an A-20 in Attack mode bombing a target that is totally worthless so I can fly a P-38.
An oddball thought just popped into my head before I posted this... For maps where capturing bases would be odd or unrealistic you could perk C-47s, LVTs, and M3s. If every map has a perk plane for both sides then the perk point totals will be kept to a dull roar. Perking the base capturing vehicles would cause a fair amount of consideration before launching one.
Keep the responses civil and intelligent.
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JCJazz, I have to admit that the thought of perking troop-delivery systems never occured to me, but it's not a bad idea. We're always looking for ways to improve our control of milking, without taking base capture completely out of the equation. Good suggestion.
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Perk the drunk express to 50 perkies and make it take 15 troops to capture.
And ... no F4U for a month or more at a time in the CT is a fact of life us Hog drivers have unfortunately gotten used to. N1K fans too, I reckon. Two CT arenas would be nice. Then, even with early non-Hog PAC setups figured in (or ... like this one ... a late PAC that has tunnel vision) there would be rotation ... but hopefully one where it comes up more often. There are F4U squads that would like to spend more time in the CT. (hint hint) ;)
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Sounds like fun.
eskimo
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One of the down sides to perking is that it is not easly implemented, it requires HTC to set the values and typicaly the perking of specific rides does not realy limit their impact on the arena effectively enough to warent the doing of it. In adation to this the eney values nead to be adjusted to realy have a true effect and this is another thing that neads working over and doing by HTC.
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Originally posted by brady
One of the down sides to perking is that it is not easly implemented, it requires HTC to set the values and typicaly the perking of specific rides does not realy limit their impact on the arena effectively enough to warent the doing of it. In adation to this the eney values nead to be adjusted to realy have a true effect and this is another thing that neads working over and doing by HTC.
I don't like perks all together.
The best way to limit plane usage is to limit the fields they are available at.
Perks give more experienced players a bigger advantage, which they already have. Field limiting makes everyone pay the same price... driving time.
eskimo
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I like this setup even though there are no unbalanced hogs in attendance. I give it full thumbs up.
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I agree with Sabre......that is not a crazy idea, it is actually a good one.
I never thought of it, as most times perk rides are considered to be fighters or other hi performance rides.
Thanks for the kind comments and feedback, folks. I was really sweating whether or not anyone would like my idea or understand it. Time will tell how successful it is; success or failure is up to the players who populate the CT.
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Good Looking setup Eddiek. A PTO thats a change of pace. The addition of the P-38 was a good idea, although I'll be dodging them all week, like the F4U , they need to be seen in PTO's
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One alternative to perks is to raise the number to capture a town to a number like 50 drunks. Make them EARN the capture. ;)
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Very nice thoughts for a good map. You will see me in the P-38 as I build the required perks. Since the P-40E is nearly 60mph slower than it should be, the A6M5 will eat its lunch as long as the Zero retains its energy. In the typical "hamsterwheel" furballs that are so popular in the CT, the A6M5 will rule over the P-40E.
I have to agree with eskimo, even in the last PTO, 95 % of my time was departing the cv and flying nearly three grids to the fight just to be able to fly the F4U-D.
The last map was good do to the fact that the bases were far enough apart to somewhat prevent the "hamsterwheel" and allowed "us" to regroup after a heated enguagement.
to the BOB map!! I thought it to be a great set-up Jester!
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I like it
Ensign Rafe35
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We are coming! Banzai! :D
(http://www.kesalesket.net/kanttori/kuvia/zero_partio.jpg)
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Originally posted by eddiek
PS--To those who want to see the Hawgs in action, wait til my next setup, please. This is a USAAF versus the Japanese setup.........your time is coming, I promise. ;)
USAAF had the P-47D at the time. Best Allied unperked 'fighters' in this setup seem to be A-20G (faster than P-40 at sea level), and SBD (which can almost turn with Zeros). But don't let historical accuracy come into way of the Sacred Game Balance.
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The P-47 was in theater, but if I include it (much as I would love to.....I am a confirmed JUGLOVER and unashamed to admit it) then the USAAF has TWO fighters that have the ability to hit and run, disengage at will (IF the pilots are smart and get some alt under them.......low and slow both the P-38 and P-47 should be dead meat for the Zeroes and Ki-61). The Pacific was the theater in which the P-38 really shined, and I don't want to detract from that by adding the P-47 at this time.
At the start of this setup, USAAF pilots are going to be hard pressed to get their perk built up, as the A6M2 and A6M5 are both more maneuverable, and the A6M5 is as fast as the P-40E.
Things will become a bit easier as the week goes by and they build up perks and have the ability to fly the Lightning.
It is not all about "SACRED GAMEPLAY BALANCE" as you put it. I take this position on the CT Staff very seriously, and try to find a way to put all the planes for BOTH sides into my setups that I can within the target time period.
Problem is, if either side has an aircraft that is clearly superior to it's opponents, more and more players gravitate to that side and soon we are looking at ratios of 2:1, 3:1, and I have even seen 4:1 ratios at times. That is not much fun for the outnumbered side, I think you will admit, and it usually ends up with a gripefest here and in the arena, and lower attendance to boot.
There are a several variations to the planeset in this particular time period, and over time, I intend to use most or all of them at one time or another.
One thing to remember whenever we run a Pac setup:
The Japanese never fielded a fighter that had the speed of the P-38, F4U, P-47, or P-51. Ever. Closest thing that comes to mind is the Ki-84, and it still falls short by about 25mph of the slowest of that group. What the Japanese gave up in speed they gained in turning ability and low speed maneuverability.
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A USAAF link that may be of interest to some..
USAAF Chronology (http://www.usaaf.net/chron/index.htm)
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hooray
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Only changes from my original description were:
Fuel Multiplier set to 1.4
Ki-61 perked at 4 points (easy to get in less than a day)
P-38 is available at A1 and A41 only
Ki-61 is available at A12 and A15 only
Have fun, ladies and gents! !
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Sounds like a well thought out setup Eddie...
. Am looking forward to flying both sides. Since I tend to fly for whichever side has low numbers, I'm guessing I might be flying Allied early in the week and Axis later in the week.
Kantorri...thats an interesting photo. Do you have any details regarding those aircraft? The Zero in the foreground looks as it should, but the Zero in the background doesn't quite look right to me.
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Originally posted by pangea
Sounds like a well thought out setup Eddie.... Am looking forward to flying both sides. Since I tend to fly for whichever side has low numbers, I'm guessing I might be flying Allied early in the week and Axis later in the week.
Kantorri...thats an interesting photo. Do you have any details regarding those aircraft? The Zero in the foreground looks as it should, but the Zero in the background doesn't quite look right to me.
Rear Zero has elevators mounted higher and doesn't have as large an intake under the nose. Wonder what version it is?
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Pangea, I don't know the details of that picture. My Squadmate send it to me today (he find it from internet) and I put it there because I like it!
Does anybody know the history of those planes or this photo?:confused:
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Originally posted by eddiek
It is not all about "SACRED GAMEPLAY BALANCE" as you put it...
Problem is, if either side has an aircraft that is clearly superior to it's opponents, more and more players gravitate to that side
Looks like you are contradicting yourself.. But, OK, I understand that too unbalanced numbers is not good. Although I haven't noticed that in the few months I have been around, even when there have been planes like Spit IX and XIV. There seems to have been enough players to take the challenge.
I just feel that CT is *the* arena you should recreate the historical planeset as accurately as possible. After reading many WW2 aviation books I am interested to know how these aircraft perform against eachother in simulation (I always try both sides).
Anyway, eddiek, don't take my and other peoples whining too seriously. I am glad to fly this setup as it is, and I appreciate CT staffers and mapmakers voluntary efforts very highly.
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But to me, that Zero in the background looks like one of the AT-6 Texans converted to look like a Zero.
TimRas, I may have contradicted myself, but it was not on purpose. What I want to get across is that over time, I will try to get as many of the planes that did see action against one another into my setups. Just not all at once.
I value very highly feedback from players, always have, always will. Heck, I am first and foremost a player, and I want to have fun just as much as the next person.
If and when we get more Japanese planes (not just fighters either), the Allied planesets in my setups will expand accordingly. For instance, if and when we get the much anticipated Ki-84, you will see more P-47/P-38 tandems and even some P-51B/D and P-47 combos.
Until then, it is all about compromise. I do my best to live up to the description Pyro initially gave the arena:
"A new arena is now up. It's called "Combat Theater" and deals with historical, quasi-historical and perhaps even what-if setups. The Theater will rotate between different settings. How long that rotation period will be dictated by response." (from 8-9-2001 in the News, Announcements, and Information)
That may mean that from time to time one side or another will have an advantage, but I will do my best to represent as accurately as possible any particular time period I can without causing either side to have such a huge advantage that no one attends. I feel that the CT staff have to walk a fine line between historical accuracy and "what will draw players to the arena".
Just my thoughts...........!
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Seems what's brought players to the CT most often has been the pizza map and nightime in the MA. Perhaps if all the dedicated CT players swamp HT with really crappy MA maps, we could increase the population of the CT on a more regular basis.
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On behalf of the VF-17 Jolly Rogers, I would like to extend a note of appreciation to EddieK for this setup and other PTO's to be perfected in the future which will have corsairs.
You have the support of this group of hog drivers.
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(http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/graphics/MIN/L14432.jpg)
Tony the Tiger :)
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Najdorf, you guys got yer work cut out for ya.
I just logged a bit ago and it is TOUGH to be in the USAAF in the CT right now.
13-4 odds when I logged in, and most of the Japanese were in Ki67's or A6M5b's.........not a friendly enviroment if you are in a P-40E, lemme tell ya.
I got 6 buffs in two sorties, so I am now able to up a P-38 when I get back into the arena after my boys get home from school.
May have to move the P-38 up closer to the front today just to get it into play, but I don't wanna be premature on that decision.
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yep
take out the betty and the A20 - A20 hosed up last week
and nothing wants to catch & mess with a betty
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God knows i'm not a pac fan, but this one looks better than the others. looking forward to giving it a go.
hey eagler (my hero), would ya mind if i stole your av from ya? or do i have to go dig one up on my own? hehe (big republican here, ya know.)
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Here ya go, Tuck.
(http://home.centurytel.net/dennisfaught/art/bush.jpg)
Splash1
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4 more wars, eh?
i have no problem with that....but that's for a thread in the officer's thingie. :p
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Originally posted by Tuck
God knows i'm not a pac fan, but this one looks better than the others. looking forward to giving it a go.
hey eagler (my hero), would ya mind if i stole your av from ya? or do i have to go dig one up on my own? hehe (big republican here, ya know.)
sure tuck go ahead - I just shrunk a bumber sticker from
www.georgebush.com (http://www.georgebush.com) to make it
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u have the only flying A6M (foreground)
There are now more A6Ms airworthy with more being restored. I had a link to a list of A6M projects. Ill see if I can find it.
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(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/corsair.gif)
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OK what can I say about this setup. Hmmmmm as an Allied only flier some days it just doesn't pay to get out of the hanger. I got lots of practice yesterday in all the gun solution spoiling manuvers. I made TimRas and Kigjo work for the honor of blowing my P40E out of the sky in their Zeke. Happily next week the whole art-of-not-getting-shot-out-of-the-sky lessons will be fresh in my mind which should make me a difficult target when I get a plane that works.
I really don't like the tweak done to the SBDs and A20s. They are set so they can only earn Bomber perk points. The Attack button doesn't work. This is going to hose my Attack rank pretty nicely until I can earn the perks for a P38. It will probably take awhile since unlike EddieK I wasn't lucky enough to run into some of the newer (greener than fresh wood) pilots in KI67s and earn 6.67 perks in a single sortie.
Eddie and others asked the same question several times yesterday. Just how did the Allies manage to win considering just how viciously horrible their aircraft were? The answer is of course Indigo. For those who aren't familiar with it (probably no one in this group of WW2 experts), Indigo was the main cryptosystem used by the Empire of Japan. It has several offshoots but each of the flavors of Indigo share the same roots. To put it simply the fact that the US cracked Indigo long before the war began allowed it to work out favorable conditions for engagements. Even P40s could manage to shoot down Zekes when the odds were 3:1 or even 4:1. What would occur goes something like this...
Intercepts show that a major Nip attack would launch at X time along Y path with target Z. To prevent the disclosure of the fact that the US had broken Indigo an observation plane would be dispatched to "accidently" run across the strike group. After establishing this accidental detection a major US strike force would pounce the Nips. The odds were always hideously unfavorable to the Nips. Allied aircraft would be waiting several thousand feet above them on full fuel tanks when the Nips were stuck down low and slow trying to conserve fuel. Many times the Allies would withdraw critical equipment from the target and allow the IJN/IJAF to hit the now worthless target just so they wouldn't have any ammo either. With odds of 3:1 and in this vulnerable state BLAM no more Imperial Japanese strike group. Repeat as necessary with object lessons such as those found in the Battle of Midway and the US has the time to build aircraft that actually work and lay waste to the nascent dreams of Imperialism Japanese style.
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"The odds were always hideously unfavorable to the Nips"
Really? At Pearl Harbor, Phillipines, Wake, Coral Sea, Midway, Gudalcanal, Singapore, CBI, Darwin 1943, unfavorable how?
"Allied aircraft would be waiting several thousand feet above them on full fuel tanks when the Nips were stuck down low and slow trying to conserve fuel"
Again, what battle was that? I read Major Foss's accounts of the Guadalcanal campaign, he doesn't mention any of that. He seems to remember it as a hard fought camapaign for some inexplicable reason. Did INTEL help the air war? of course it did, when it could, but you present it like it was a pre ordained kabuki dance with everybody knowing their parts in advance. Hardly!
As for the crappy Allied a/c well, try fighting a P-38 in a Ki-43, or a F4U or F6F in a Zero. Again, an overgeneralised statement. Some were dogs, like the P-39, and some had no equal, like the P-38.
P-40s fought the IJN, against the odds and sometimes came out the better, sometimes not, (just like the CT), they were surely not the only allied fighter used in the PAC, however.
"(probably no one in this group of WW2 experts)"
Gee whiz mister, shucks, thanks for stopping bye...lol.
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Jazz, I didn't tweak anything.
The "ATTACK" button should work. I didn't do anything special with this setup other than perk the P-38 and limit it to two or three bases, perk the Ki-61 and limit it to two bases, and eliminate the naval aspect by making all fleets rook and moving them to the far corner of the map.
I told ya yesterday while we were flying in the same area I felt the P-40E was outclassed as a dogfighter against the Zero hordes we were facing. I still feel that way, though there are others who are adamnant that the P-40E outclasses even the A6M5.......funny thing is, ya don't see them in one, trying to take on a Zero one on one, or a gaggle of 'em.
I guess it all boils down to tactics......TimRas, Storch, and others were doing pretty well when I was there later, bagging several Zeroes while I watched from the cockpit of a P-38. I confess they are probably LOTS better than I am at AH, as all I can achieve in the P-40E is a lot of floundering around and trying to dive away. The P-40 bleeds E even faster than a Jug (which I thought bled E like no other plane I had ever seen), so your opportunities to strike and get the kill are rare. That is, unless the Zero pilot is inexperienced or you have numbers on your side.
WMaker1 schooled me and two others yesterday, he in an A6M5, me in a P-38 and two other guys in P-40's. To put it bluntly, he flat outflew all three of us and was untouchable.
Any speed advantage the USAAF is more than matched by the superior maneuverability of the A6M's.
In a P-40, ya gotta (unfortunately) take off from a base at least a sector away from where you want to fight, grab alt, and hope like heck you are above the Zeroes when you meet them. Otherwise, you have little recourse but to dive away or keep going straight and don't turn even a smidge.........once the Zero has reversed course, he takes a while to get up to your speed again.
My problem is, and has always been, I tend to be too aggressive and try to turn with the Zeroes, Nikis, and Ki-61's and end up DEAD because of it.
Keep your speed up, try to get some alt under yer wings, and don't turn too hard in the P-40. At 250mph and up, you can compete with the Japanese planes, well, at least the Zeroes. Below that, and you give them a big advantage again as they simply fly rings around a low speed P-40 OR P-38.
If you find yourself in a fight with a Ki-61 in a P-40, you will find he has E management problems too, just not as bad as yours. If you try to dive away, he can stay with you and maintain high speed control, unlike the A6M's.
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Originally posted by Squire
"The odds were always hideously unfavorable to the Nips"
Really? At Pearl Harbor, Phillipines, Wake, Coral Sea, Midway, Gudalcanal, Singapore, CBI, Darwin 1943, unfavorable how?
You mention one of the best examples of the Intel battle, Midway. Nimitz had pretty much exactly what he needed to blast Yamamoto's fleet. He had it pretty much exactly where he needed it. Yes, it was a hard fought battle but the fact that Nimitz was reading Yamamoto's TOE and Op orders was decisive. In this sense the situation was hideously unfavorable. In fact this particular battle caused a huge uproar in the Intel community because Nimitz did not fall for Yamamoto's feints, did have everything where it was needed, did proceed to blast the IJN to bits. Dr. Turing and Commander Schoen had fits because of the improbability of this occuring without our being able to break Indigo. They were deeply concerned that this battle would cause the IJN to switch ciphers because they felt Indigo was broken. After this battle Nimitz takes extreme precautions to make accidental detection of enemy intents because Roosevelt chews him a new orifice.
"Allied aircraft would be waiting several thousand feet above them on full fuel tanks when the Nips were stuck down low and slow trying to conserve fuel"
Again, what battle was that? I read Major Foss's accounts of the Guadalcanal campaign, he doesn't mention any of that. He seems to remember it as a hard fought camapaign for some inexplicable reason. Did INTEL help the air war? of course it did, when it could, but you present it like it was a pre ordained kabuki dance with everybody knowing their parts in advance. Hardly!
Only Theatre Commanders, Heads of State, and the actual cryptanalysts were on the MAGIC list (Indigo Intel take codeword). Naturally enough Major Foss wouldn't have anything to say on the subject. Again part of the reason for these battles being hard fought were due to the need to keep the break secret. No action could be taken that explicity or implicitly informed the Japanese command that Indigo was broken. Therefore some opportunities had to be passed on.
As for the crappy Allied a/c well, try fighting a P-38 in a Ki-43, or a F4U or F6F in a Zero. Again, an overgeneralised statement. Some were dogs, like the P-39, and some had no equal, like the P-38.
Actually I was referring to P-39s and P-40s. Once the Corsairs, Hellcats, and Lightnings started showing up in Theatre in great numbers with the teething problems of these classes worked out things went much better. This is the "getting planes that work" part I was referring to.
P-40s fought the IJN, against the odds and sometimes came out the better, sometimes not, (just like the CT), they were surely not the only allied fighter used in the PAC, however.
Sure they did never said they didn't. I was pointing out that many of the major engagements were won because we were reading the enemies mail. Aside from the mail aspect there is also the training issue. After the initial stages of the war US pilots were generally better trained, supplied, and equiped.
"(probably no one in this group of WW2 experts)"
Gee whiz mister, shucks, thanks for stopping bye...lol.
Re-read the sentence and note what it actually says... I'll try again. I'm certain that everyone here knows what Indigo is because everyone here is a bunch of WW2 enthusiasts.
Originally posted by eddiek
Jazz, I didn't tweak anything.
The "ATTACK" button should work.
Flew an A20G yesterday with the attack button pressed. Earned Bomber perks not Fighter perks. Only did this once and couldn't get out again for a second try. I'll do it again and confirm.
I guess it all boils down to tactics ...(SNIP)...That is, unless the Zero pilot is inexperienced or you have numbers on your side.
WMaker1 schooled me and two others yesterday, he in an A6M5, me in a P-38 and two other guys in P-40's. To put it bluntly, he flat outflew all three of us and was untouchable.
...(SNIP)...In a P-40, ya gotta (unfortunately) take off from a base at least a sector away from where you want to fight, grab alt, and hope like heck you are above the Zeroes when you meet them. Otherwise, you have little recourse but to dive away or keep going straight and don't turn even a smidge.........once the Zero has reversed course, he takes a while to get up to your speed again.
Most of my experience yesterday was as follows...
1) Only 1 time was I actually higher than the A6M I engaged.
2) I was never flying against an inexperienced pilot in an A6M.
3) I was always flying from A40 a sector away and climbing to 12K to 20K.
4) I was flying 1 vs 1 or once 1 vs 5.
5) I could get 1 good gun solution on the initial merge and put rounds into the target but never enough.
6) After the initial merge I'd get 1 or 2 opportunities for HO or hi deflection shots but couldn't take advantage of it. Some rounds would land but not enough.
7) Having sucked all the E out of my aircraft in these 3 passes without a kill I'd be screwed. Totally defensive and trying like hell to get out of the fight.
Rules of Engagement in this setup
1) Never engage unless E state is far superior to IJAF.
2) Only work 2 gun solutions... initial merge and the next pass after that disengage.
3) Open fire with half second burst on any opportunity for HO at D1.7.
4) If WidowMaker is flying for IJAF switch to MA immediately and don't even bother.
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Originally posted by storch
I'm sure my score will suffer but I think I'm enjoying the challenge.
Heh heh. Storch, dude, renew yourself and break free of the score chains. It's a whole new world out there if you forget to check whether you killed more of them than they killed of you.
Trust me on this one.
- oldman