Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rattler of The OUTLAWS on December 06, 1999, 11:48:00 AM
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Problems that all can be solved with one concept.
Re-think the Arena Concept. CK II beta test
was right on the mark.Just never got the
Networking bugs worked out in time.
Make your own game ( you set the arena parameters )
Don't like the Rif-Raf (aka kids)? crank up
the realism settings and or password protect your arena.
Strategy? Wildly Mixed Interests (aka Main Arena) hasn't ever worked over the entire test of Online WWII multiplayer gaming Time.
When are we finally going to SQUASH this bug?
User Definable Settings such as.......
1) # of fields per side ( Allied & Enemy ) 2 sided event
2) Limited Resources ON/OFF
3) If ON How many Aircraft allowed Per side?
**** this is KEY ! Limited resource engagements will crank up the Strategy beyond
anyones conceivable imagination....think about it******
4)Icons settings for Allied/Enemy Aircraft?
5)Flight Model, Check the box
Blackouts/Redouts ON?
Easy Physics Mode ON?
Easy takeoff/landings ON?
Overstressing Airframes ON?
Compression ON?
ECT.........
6)Type of Aircraft per side allowed?
You check the boxes next to the aircraft.
7)Time of Day simulated for start?
One hour before darkness?
One hour before dawn?
Mid-day?
Mid-night?
8)Cloud/ weather?
9)Time limit ON?
1/2 hour
1 hour
1 1/2 hours
ect.......
10)# of Carrier Fleets per side?
11)# of fields per side?
12)Terrain?
You pick it!
You get idea I think.
You log on, shop the games.Don't find one you like, create your own.
Aero Squadron Meets could be pre-arranged and
password protected and given out via email.
Make it a Realistic/Strategic as you Want/don't want.
Wildly Varied interests = NO PROBLEM
Always a game that fits your interests, and your Never forced into one the doesn't.
Furball with all planes available No Resource
Limit or a 2 Hour Limited Aircraft Engagement
with a Midway type Flavor....... U decide!
Either beat this Drum with me or keep complaining and never get it resolved.
Think about it.
Thanks for reading
Steve "Rattler" Needham
The Outlaws
Since 1992
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I thought about it... I DON'T LIKE IT!
Next!
Thunder
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Of course you're right, rattler, although that first response tells you there are still knuckleheads who just don't get it.
Many current online flight sims have all strived to give us choice, choice, choice, and limits have been a taboo subject.
So what do we, the players, do with all that choice? Create dweebery. All the original thoughts wrt tactics have revolved around gaming the game and exploiting loopholes (ackstars, attack-dweebing, sealclubbing) rather than using the proper tools for the job and maintaining the feel of WWII combat...all the while maintaining some semblance of side balancing so that everyone can have some fun.
We need to have more controls and restrictions in the hands of the players to allow them to create (or choose from) the type of experience they want.
Confirmed Kill DID have it right. There certainly are worse alternatives to the "Main Arena" concept.
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If I understand the idea correctly, it's sound...but the potential downside (and what probably keeps it from happening) is the "20 arenas for 80 pilots" phenomenon.
Potential negative effects: You just don't get "critical mass" in any single arena. Additionally, once you get up to a certain number of arenas it might cause server load problems (no matter how few pilots are in an arena, there's an irreducible minimum of server resources required to run it--too many arenas and something goes sproing.
Still an interesting idea, though. Maybe if there were an equitable way of limiting the number of arenas that could exist at any given time, along with a way of rotating them in and out of existence so that others could get a turn to "run the war their way."
Or how about this (dons flameproof suit): Maybe this "player-created arena" feature should be available...for an additional charge (by which I mean you pay extra to create your own arena). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (i am now running briskly)
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
[This message has been edited by Flathat (edited 12-06-1999).]
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Kinda agree with Flathat here. The problem would be how to create numbers in any given arena.
Maybe the "Basic Arena" could be a high-fidelity, two-sided war along the lines of the HA (come on now, sooner or later, SOMEONE has to try the historic setup as the "standard" arena). The BA would initially be the ONLY arena open (with flat rate pricing, should be no problem getting some folks in there). Once the BA reached a "sustainable" number (50 guys, maybe?) then the "arena modification area" would become "unlocked." At that time, players could create their own scenarios, and you're off and running. Once the BA dropped below 50 again, the mini-scenarios would continue to run, but the arena-modification area would become "locked" again, so no new scenarios could be created until BA numbers went back up. Of course, new players could join a mini-scen in progress if its creator had permitted that option.
Perhaps set up two "theaters" for "arena-masters," a fantasy theater where you could build Spit vs Spit, no-holds-barred mini-arenas and a realist theater where the mini-arenas have historical limitations imposed.
But retain the Basic Arena as the initial focal point, and require players to fly there until "enough" players are online. Maybe link "arena-master" privileges to score, or rank, or something...
--jedi
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Excellent feedback and Idea's guys!
See that, there IS intelligent life on this
board :/
I would add, although 100 players in an arena
sounds grand, you hardly encounter more than
15 MAX at any time (for the greatest part)
100 ++ players all in Mixed directions OR
30 to 40 with the Horns Locked in a heated and desperate Battle with Everything on the line.(Limited Aircraft,fuel,ammo,maintence..)
I know what my choice would be...
Rattler
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I agree with flat, all though you might only encounter a small percentage of the actual players in the arena, it's the unknown factor that the 99% you don't see are hi on your 6, keeping the level of excitement and anxiety high. Warbirds has many different arena's, but you still see the majority in the Main. Only during Scenario's and occasionally the HA, do the other arena's have any significant numbers. As and example, I checked out Fighter Ops, (Warbirds on AOL) and even if I still liked Warbirds, I would not have even considered playing, as the only arena's with anyone in them were the novice arena's.
The other idea's are great tho, and already done to some extent for Scenario's by players who have been given the ability to manipulate arena's in other Sim's.
Patience. Other arena's will pop up, and wait until you participate in your first Scenario! They are the best part of online simming, recreating history, who know's what the outcome will be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
ts
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You might find this interview interesting guys... http://www.allgames.com/combat/archive.cfm (http://www.allgames.com/combat/archive.cfm) Scroll down to the Aces High 9/20/99 interview, then FFWD to ~27 minutes. Basically it explains some more about what Leonid points out below. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-07-1999).]
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Rattler, Hitech is planning on giving us players:
1)terrain editor
2)8 vs. 8 head-to-head configuration (free)
so, your idea will be implemented in a roundabout way.
I do have to say that numbers aren't everything. I have had 4 vs. 4 squad duels with almost no icons and only directional radar and let me tell you, it was probably the most exciting time I ever had. Rattler, I feel your idea does have merit, but it does have some hitches as those above have stated.
Now you said CKII was using this? Were you a beta tester for it? And if so, how did the freely configurable arena concept work there?
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 12-07-1999).]
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I dinnae think we can discuss the details of CK's beta cause we're still covered by the NDA for it, but the demo that ran on mplayer had the various games hosted on one of the client machines, with no central server.
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Tshred: I've flown in many Warbirds senarios
over the years.They do mimmic the "user definable Arena" in sorts.
Cave: We are able to discuss CKII openly.
I believe Stiglr was the only one to fully understand the point I was trying to convey.
I don't wish the Main Arena away. I've been
thru AW1Dos via Genie,AWII for windows beta,
Warbirds all the way thru,FA-1 beta,CKII beta, and now AH beta.
Air Warrior has some of best Stategic inferstructure around. The problem is,SOME folks don't want to be penalized for furballing and don't wish have all the fields
eliminated,forced to fly further from the action,or be limited on their resources ( fuel,ammo,ect)
OTHERS want Full Strat Mode ON:want to punish
the enemy to the fullest,and deprieve him
of all his resources.
And,there is a full range of varients in between.
A Wildly Mixed Interests Main Arena , is a
constant compromise and not a Direct
Solution to all the customers wants and needs.
The Historical Arena suffered from this and has left many Paying Customers with the only option to pull the plug and wait.
Many of us that have been around for this long are simply tired of Capture the Flag,and
the 24 hour arena.
We want the ability to tailor our own arena to suit our needs while not stepping on someones elses.
The closed end arena with Clear-Cut winners and loosers,limited aircraft & resources will
cure 95% of all the Gripes posted on these
boards for the last 8+ years I've been at it.
I don't like the Icon ranges
Its an altitude fight,highest alt wins!
Why carry ordinance when it rebuilds?
Why close a field when they can simply switch
sides or go to another.
I don't like the plane-set.
I hate ditchers! (this is a good one,ditch the plane in a limited resource engagement and loose it the rest of the game)
Damned Head-ONs!
No one will escort my bomber (another good one,in limited resource engagement,limited aircraft{including bombers}every plane is sacred,and so are your fuel tanks,ammo sheds,
maintenance facilities,ect)
I could go on for hours.........literally
The beauty is,only those wishing to Engage under the specific terms need join.
Everyone is happy!
Rattler
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Hmmmmm I felt that I understood your points. They were well constructed and very understandable. However, one CAN understand and still disagree! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Respectfully! I THOUGHT ABOUT IT... DON'T LIKE IT! You did say "Think About it!" and the thread calls for a reply!
Thunder
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Thunder: I never did single you out.Your opinion is yours,neither right or wrong.
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Rattler,
I never thought you were singling me out! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)My comment in response to yours ......I believe Stiglr was the only one to fully understand the point I was trying to convey. He agreed with you so you must figure he was the only one that fully understood your point. My post ment nothing more than "I THOUGHT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD" but "I DON'T AGREE!"
Deep down you know I'm RIGHT hehe! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute
Thunder
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I would just like to see an arena with mountains everywhere. Not just a "Very Cool" hump in the middle.
Get rid of that flat ground.
Mino
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Yeah - there are some great rolling hills west of 22, and of course F1 is blessed with a bunch of these. I don't know if it's a frame-rate issue that the terrain is predominately flat, but I too would love to see more of these hills.
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Rattler, do I understand well when i say that you are proposing something "CFS"-like, with smaller arenas you can set by yourself waiting for others to join?
I think the major propblem is to set the Main Arena in a way that objective for all sides are set and clear enough to avoid the endless furballs you see in MA of WB.
the idea of limited resources is good: but I don't know how many people would accept to join the arena and take the available plane because theyr favorite ride isn't available.
On the other end we shouldn't forget that maybe there are also a lot of people expecting big and endless furballs: so the risk is to create a "furball arena" like the MA in WB and a "serious" (please understand that I'm not writing in my mother tongue, so the word's choice might be unhappy) arena whit the risk for it to end like the Historical Arena in WB...to be or not to be?
I don't know what is the value added to the discussion by this my response, maybe zero. Take it as if I was reasoning by myself loud..I'm geting older and i speak alone...
Ciao
Luigi "falco" Pacetti
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Perhaps, there could be a player configurable arean or two, for use by squads.
The squads would check the scheduleing of the arena(s) and then put themselves, and their competeing squad on the schedule.
Then during that period, the squads set the arena setting.
They can choose to limit it to members of the two squads, or allow "Lone Targets" to join.
Players/Squads could then lobby for the setting they want, and encourage others to join.
Say I wanna run a CBI Scenario.
I configure the Arena Thusly.
100 P-40Cs available.
50 Hurricane 1s.
25 Brewster Buffaloes.
150 Ki-44s.
50 Ki-41s.
6 B-25Cs.
40 G3Ms
40 G4Ms
20 A5M.
15 I-16s
CBI Terrain.
AVG; Limited Fuel, Functional Radios (text Buffers) and Radar.
IJA; No Radios, No Radar.
RAF; Same as AVG.
I schedule this to be PLAYER ARENA 1 on a Saturday starting at say 11:00 A.M. EST (6:00 A.M. GMT)
We get Two Hours or 4 Hours depending on how I schedule.
I then come here to the UBB, perhaps the is a player arena UBB and announce that I got PA1 and am doing this setup, and I need 20 minimum flyers.
If say, Friday at 12:00 P.M. EST (7:00 A.M. GMT) I don't have my 20 pilots, the Arena is then offered to the next Player Scenario Scheduler. (And he has to find 20 Pilots.)
Squad Leaders and volunteer an entire squadron by simply posting a "Outlaws 16 Members Message) then there would be a tally of Volunteers on the Schedule.
Players Arenas that regularly get a large number of Participants can be considered for incorporation as Permanent Arenas, or Regularly Rotated Arenas.
Be cool to also have a "On This Day in History" Arena, where famous Air Battles can be fought, using Realistic Settings.
Say Every December 7th (or the Sunday/Saturday immediately before or after the 7th) they run the "Pearl Harbor" Scenario.
As I said somewhere I would like to do this, but allow the U.S. Forces to get the warning of the imminate attack at 5 Minute intervals, up to 40 minutes warning.
They could pop in the BoB arena in the Spring and Summer.
Interrupt it for Midway.
Toss in a Malta occasionally.
Just have a schedule of "Historical Arenas" to rotate.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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Downtown,
Very nice,well thought out idea. Where as unlimited arena's may be too much,having a two of three "Configurable" Arena's would be
just fine.Infact, it would help keep them full.
Folks could log in (Paying Customers)have the option of 2 to 3 Mini-Senario's or the Main.
The big differece to WB is that these would be player choosen,offering Virtually Unlimited formats,seeing literally 100 or more different setups having been run in a 24 hour stretch.Everyone could find something to keep them happy,or join the Massive Main if thats what you desire.
The NON-paying customers could still chew on the hook with Dale's and Doug's 4 to 8 player
H2H air combat offering.
I do Dare Taunt that once everyone could taste a limited aircraft/resource engagement
and feel the pressure and feel of XTRA urgencey to make the right desicion,they may
enjoy it more than the Main than they might think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for Reading!
Rattler..... (thunder,again I was referring to only those that posted feedback as to what I had said,You just gave a simply thumbs down with no explanation,therefor It WASN'T about You,please get over it allready)
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Rattler,
You posted an idea of what would be fun to you. I personally think the concept is flawed in that it undermines and draws off pilots that might otherwise be in the main arena. It fractures pilots into self serving splinter groups. The opportunities for teamwork and cooperation with strat can't be accomplished by small numbers.Basically it appears that you don't like the structure in this simulation and want to create your own! PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH CK AND DO SO! THEY REALY KNOW WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS AND HOW TO PRODUCE IT! I was in CK beta too! Blaaah! I wouldn't want to play it but if others do... have a good time! Warbirds did a bit of that in some of the private scenerio stuff and they were never full. I can think of one squad that was once a very good squad that suffered when they went to that stucture. The squad served as fodder for some that had a blast but the result was not good for that squad. I like short (6 frame)well thought out scenerios. That is where things should be modified for playablity and a fun change. Read these newsgroups and if there were as many options to play as ideas we would have KAOS! I like structure and and not moving targets! To fly in all arenas that are all inconsistant would be very frustrating to me!
Thunder
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Rattler S!
I flew in the CKII beta. The big draw to me was squadron play. Ya know in jet fighter games you can get into a set mission game and actually have a real task to do to "win" the mission. In WWII and WWI games we have huge arenas to furball in.
For a lot of players this is a fun concept and has a place in the game. BUT for some of us also having a way, whether on the server or being able to set up the server, to have a true goal to win brings something new into the game. A real goal, a real winner. No changing sides. No replaning once a plane type is gone. Real Limited fuel.
Now I KNOW that not all gamers would go for this BUT IMHO it would give squads something real to do and be able to have a REAL squad ladder system in place. It would also allow for non squad aligned players to join in to fill the gaps on the server for the duration of the mission.
How many times has someone gotten just plain bored with takeoff, grab alt, fly out, shoot someone down and rtb or get shot down start over. I love the way AH is shaping up and the 8player version may help fill the gap but I do think the mission based arena that is configureable prior to the game would be awesome!
I am not searching for flames just trying to get across how I know a few of us feel.
Rocket
The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
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How about just a plain old change of airfields once and awhile. Like just rearrange them. I bet every buff pilot knows "exactly" where all the factories are located, and where all the ack is at the fields.
Make it harder by having positions change once and while.
Just my 2 cents.
BTW...I'm really starting to like this game. You guys on the boards are mostly cordial and polite. Been around some that contain the worst of all humanity.
Kudo's and Thank You.
Smitty "One of these day's I'll learn to fly fighters"
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Thunder, You said........
"You posted an idea of what would be fun to you. I personally think the concept is flawed
in that it undermines and draws off pilots that might otherwise be in the main arena. It
fractures pilots into self serving splinter groups."
If its flawed then no-one would participate
in these sub-arena's,and you got nothing to be worried about. IF,its not flawed then let folks DECIDE where they want to play instead
of being Hurded into Your Main Arena.
"The opportunities for teamwork and
cooperation with strat can't be accomplished by small numbers."
I couldn't Disagree more!Arena's with 20 players per side FOCUSED together will be a
better display of teamwork than the Wildly
Mixed Interests Main.
Aces High has a flight Model,3D cockpit,graphics engine very similar to CKII
and I'd love to see them OPEN UP the game a little and hit the HOLE in the Sim Market.
WWII ONLINE will go another route alltogether.
Rattler
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I think its a GREAT idea. However, instead of player configurable make two or three arenas that have been setup by the host. The first arena could be the *cough* *boring* *cough cough* type of arena we currently have. The other arena could have full strategy, limited planes, all the good stuff.
Try running those two arenas, see which one is more popular after a couple months and see what the gamers prefer. Of course I doubt the HTC group even reads these forums.. sigh.