Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wulfie on October 05, 2003, 05:57:38 AM
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http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-428E-B8E5-26E52D387622.htm
Mike/wulfie
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In the occupied Gaza Strip, Israel launched two helicopter attacks on the homes of resistance fighters.
Well we know who's side Aljazeera is on. I would call them terrorists. :rolleyes:
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Actually that AlJazeera report is far more reasonable than I have come to expect from them.
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maybe history's ultimate justification for the iraqi war will be that we had a large troop presence in the middle east at the same time that that powder keg exploded . . .
my first reaction to this story was - oh no here we go. But I dont think it is ww3 just yet
strk
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Originally posted by strk
maybe history's ultimate justification for the iraqi war will be that we had a large troop presence in the middle east at the same time that that powder keg exploded . . .
Well that was always the devious plan, no? Think black helicopters... :)
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WTFG Isreal! It's about time.
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'For the record' I was just posting a link to the news.
Opinion-wise, there's definitely a good side and a bad side to the attack.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
'For the record' I was just posting a link to the news.
Opinion-wise, there's definitely a good side and a bad side to the attack.
Mike/wulfie
Clue us in? =)
Personally I think it is good because it puts the media light on the Syria-terrorist connections. Alot of ppl in the west need to be told about those. It also shows the pals that Israel will not stop at the border when going after the top level terrorists in the future.
On the other hand, its bad because it means the Israelis wont remove Arafat right now. And it is never good for the arab blood pressure to have the Israelis smack around yet another arab nation.
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Aug 14
"Wherever al Qaeda terrorists try to hide, from the caves and mountains of Central Asia to the islands of the Philippines to the cities in Pakistan, we are finding them and we are bringing them to justice," Bush said.
Oct 5
“Any country who harbors terrorism, who trains (terrorists), supports and encourages them will be responsible to answer for their actions,” Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner said.
Sounds like we are finally on the same page ............
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Sure does.
I think Israel better watch itself though.If she gets too overzealous, she could be on the receiving end of a Pan-Arab Smack down.
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allow me to clue you all in:
This attack took place within 10 miles of Damascus.
President Bashar Assad approved this, and also made sure that Syrian GCI & air defenses (which include enough SA-10 & SA-6 SAM networks to make your head spin) were all shut down during this attack.
I don't know the details, but it seems that Assad Jr. is too weak to handle things internally, and welcomed this clandestine strike against the islamic jihad camp that we hit. He has been requested by the USA to close down the offices and power bases of several terror organisations, but has not complied yet - more because of his inability rather then unwillingness to do so.
like they say... "The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
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I wonder if this might be a prelude to a strike in Iran...
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Originally posted by ViFF
allow me to clue you all in:
This attack took place within 10 miles of Damascus.
President Bashar Assad approved this, and also made sure that Syrian GCI & air defenses (which include enough SA-10 & SA-6 SAM networks to make your head spin) were all shut down during this attack.
I don't know the details, but it seems that Assad Jr. is too weak to handle things internally, and welcomed this clandestine strike against the islamic jihad camp that we hit. He has been requested by the USA to close down the offices and power bases of several terror organisations, but has not complied yet - more because of his inability rather then unwillingness to do so.
like they say... "The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
I wonder if Syria's cooperation has anything to do with the 200,000 American soldiers they suddenly found living next door...
hmmmm...
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'quick and dirty and short' response:
Syrian leadership has been trying to work with U.S. and Allies. They are caught between strong anti-Israel groups in Syria and pressure on them from outside Syria to crack down on terrorists.
Israel attacking puts the leadership in even tougher spot now, as some of their supporters may not be all for eliminating Israel but Arab culture doesn't do well with the 'turn the cheek and wait before losing control' mentality. A lot of Syrians that were 'on the fence' about Israel could very well be swung in favor of 'Israel must die' not because they are Jews but because they 'besmirched the collective Syrian manhood' by striking so close to the capitol, etc.
I'm not saying Syria has done a 'great job' of 'getting in line with everyone on terrorism' but they have certainly been attempting to do so. Any Syrian in a senior leadership position who has been in favor of 'jumping on the anti-terrorism bus' has just been put in a really tight spot. Their 'political' (ideological might be a better word) opponents just got a big club to whack them in the head with argument-wise. "We should sit and let the Jews bomb us and appear as weaklings to the world?", etc.
Mike/wulfie
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This isn't the first time we strike inside another sovriegn country against palestinian terror bases. read up on black september in the early 70's.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I wonder if Syria's cooperation has anything to do with the 200,000 American soldiers they suddenly found living next door...
hmmmm...
Part of the cooperation probably does, but they also started to cooperate before those troops were there. In most Western Nations it would be nearly impossible to have people in senior leadership positions directly defy the will of the National leader. The same cannot be said for all Nations. While there have been bad guys that snuck into Iraq from Syria, odds are they didn't do so at the command of Syria's top leadership. It is very possible to have senior military leaders be in favor of anti-Israeli terrorism and supporting those terrorists in defiance of their superiors.
And it's not as simple as 'fire the military leaders' in a place like Syria. There's no gurantee that a military coup would not take place, etc. The Syrian leadership is in a tough spot.
The counter is they could be playing the West for fools, and that they do support anti-Israeli terrorism, and are using some military leaders as 'bad guys' to deflect direct blame away from themselves. But that type of trickery can usually be 'found out' foreign intelligence services.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by ViFF
This isn't the first time we strike inside another sovriegn country against palestinian terror bases. read up on black september in the early 70's.
The 'War in Europe' was one of the greatest sustained CT operations in the history of CT warfare. You guys kicked ass. :)
I love the thought of scumbags who previously were hiding in varied Nations all of a sudden thinking "I'm not safe *here*? They can't come across borders to get me!". Talk about righteous payback... :)
Mike/wulfie
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I think Israel has shown much restraint, at least up 'til now. How long would frequent bombings be tolerated if they were happening in the US? Be honest now. I think hunting season would have been declared long ago on all Muslims living in the US if we were in their shoes. Not saying it would be right, just that it would be.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I think Israel has shown much restraint, at least up 'til now. How long would frequent bombings be tolerated if they were happening in the US? Be honest now. I think hunting season would have been declared long ago on all Muslims living in the US if we were in their shoes. Not saying it would be right, just that it would be.
I'm not saying that I think what Israel did is 'wrong' or 'dumb'. I'm saying that certain Syrian senior leaders are sweating bullets right now. :)
The one certainty about the Israeli-Arab situation is that there will be no 'perfect' answers, responses, etc.
Mike/wulfie
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I think it's possible that Israel is now trying to force the issue. By starting an all out war in the region their problem may be solved. Living with the sort of fear they have for years now leads to desperation.
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WTG IDF/IAF!!!
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How long would frequent bombings be tolerated if they were happening in the US? Be honest now.
A closer parallel is how long they'd be tolerated if they were happening in Iraq, or if Iraqis were launching attacks in the US whilst they were still occupied.
I think it's possible that Israel is now trying to force the issue.
An Israeli on one of the boards I read described the attack as "nonsense" meant to convince the Israeli public the government were doing something. I read it as an admission by the Israeli government there isn't much they can do anymore, no more targets to hit, closures to impose etc amongst the Palestinians.
I'll be interested on what the analysis is like in the Israeli press in the next few days.
By starting an all out war in the region their problem may be solved.
How, by occupying Syria as well?
Israel's problem is the West Bank and Gaza, which are too big to digest, but ideological reasons prevent them spitting out. Hitting Syria, or Egypt, or Lebanon or Jordan won't change that fundamental fact, and won't bring long term peace.
Syria and Iran certainly fund the terrorist groups, but they probably get most of their funding from Palestinian society, certainly for "domestic" operations. Yesterday's suicide bomber didn't come from Syria, she came from Jenin, and wore an explosive belt that cost a few dollars to make.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
How, by occupying Syria as well?
Occupying? No, by expanding their territory sufficiently to allow a buffer zone and by relocating the Palestinians to their newly gained territory in what was owned by Syria. Of course they'll have to prevent their own people from settling the buffer zone as well as relocate everyone currently living in the buffer zone.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Sure does.
I think Israel better watch itself though.If she gets too overzealous, she could be on the receiving end of a Pan-Arab Smack down.
~snork~
Those "Pan-Arabs" have tried that crap before. They got their tulips handed to them.
More than once ;)
culero
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Occupying? No, by expanding their territory sufficiently to allow a buffer zone
Why a buffer zone with Syria? No attacks that I know of have come out of Syria in decades.
and by relocating the Palestinians to their newly gained territory in what was owned by Syria.
You're suggesting they ethnically cleanse 3 million Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza, and another million or so from inside Israel itsellf?
In the real world, that isn't going to happen. Israel hasn't got the troops for it, the Israeli public wouldn't stand for it (herding women and children in to trucks wouldn't go down well).
Israel would lose it's American financial support (about $12 billion this year, and a very large percentage of their economy), and face trade sanctions from Europe.
Most people round the world will see ethnically cleansing 4 million people so that 200,000 settlers can have their land as a bit extreme.
Of course they'll have to prevent their own people from settling the buffer zone
Which is the problem, of course. Sooner or later they'd have to clear out a new buffer zone, settle it, then another buffer zone, etc.
Many Arabs already believe Zionists are intent on a state from the Med to the Euphrates. (note I am not sugesting Israel plans to expand it's borders to the Euphrates)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
You're suggesting they ethnically cleanse 3 million Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza, and another million or so from inside Israel itsellf?
I said relocate. You're kinda grandstanding there with the ethnically cleanse statement aren't you? Tell me, are you a liberal?
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I wouldnt suggest it but I am wondering how much longer they can tolerate these idiots that blow themselves up.
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I said relocate. You're kinda grandstanding there with the ethnically cleanse statement aren't you?
No, relocate implies, or at least doesn't rule out, consent.
Companies help workers relocate.
Here's Dictionary.com's definition of ethnic cleansing:
"The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide"
Seems to fit perfectly to me.
It was also applied to the Balkans, and the pattern you are suggesting seems to be exactly the same.
Tell me, are you a liberal?
No, I'm a Thatcherite conservative. (seriously)
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An Israeli on one of the boards I read described the attack as "nonsense" meant to convince the Israeli public the government were doing something. I read it as an admission by the Israeli government there isn't much they can do anymore, no more targets to hit, closures to impose etc amongst the Palestinians.
I'll be interested on what the analysis is like in the Israeli press in the next few days.
One must ask, why would a heretofore competent Israeli airforce hit an abandoned training camp?
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I didn't say that you weren't technically right just that you are grandstanding. Relocating by force, if necessary, is still relocating. Call it want you want.
The Palestinians are at war with the Israelis. They know they have absolutely no chance at an overt war so they conduct it covertly. Anyone that denies this is either blind or a liar. Relocating them is far kinder than killing them.
Originally posted by Nashwan
No, relocate implies, or at least doesn't rule out, consent.
Companies help workers relocate.
Here's Dictionary.com's definition of ethnic cleansing:
"The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide"
Seems to fit perfectly to me.
It was also applied to the Balkans, and the pattern you are suggesting seems to be exactly the same.
No, I'm a Thatcherite conservative. (seriously)
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One must ask, why would a heretofore competent Israeli airforce hit an abandoned training camp?
Why do you think it was abandoned? The Israelis say it wasn't, I think the Syrians are saying it was. I'd be more inclined to believe the IAF, myself.
I didn't say that you weren't technically right just that you are grandstanding. Relocating by force, if necessary, is still relocating.
I just think that people who are advocating things like ethnic cleansing should at least make it clear exactly what they mean, not sanitise the language they use to describe the act.
"Lets relocate the Palestinians" doesn't really convey the misery and destruction that would be involved, does it?
The term in Israeli politics is "transfer". Thankfully, it's beyond the pale in Israeli politics, and can get you locked up and banned from standing in elections.
The Palestinians are at war with the Israelis. They know they have absolutely no chance at an overt war so they conduct it covertly.
Definately true.
Anyone that denies this is either blind or a liar.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone deny it. (Unless count those who merely split hairs, eg it's not war, it's armed conflict short of war (Israeli government term))
Relocating them is far kinder than killing them.
The third option is ending the occupation, as favoured by most of the Israeli public. The fourth option is giving the Palestinians citizenship, and equality before the law.
Quite honestly, I've always favoured option 3, but I think it's clearly impossible, and option 4 will be the eventual result. It's just a question of how many people die before it happens.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I just think that people who are advocating things like ethnic cleansing should at least make it clear exactly what they mean, not sanitise the language they use to describe the act.
"Lets relocate the Palestinians" doesn't really convey the misery and destruction that would be involved, does it?
Uh, if they're so happy where they are now why do they keep killing Israeli civilian women and children?
Ethnic cleansing implies extermination by many who use it.
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WTG Israel !
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Originally posted by AKIron
Uh, if they're so happy where they are now why do they keep killing Israeli civilian women and children?
Ethnic cleansing implies extermination by many who use it.
I strongly disagree with what you said in the first part - although it's a fine feel good fantasy to wish collective punishment on all palestenians it will not solve the problem in the long run - not to mention how evil the idea is, let alone if such a nazi style einsatz was carried out by Jews.
And no, ethnic cleasing does not singly imply genocide, forced relocation as you are advocating is enough.
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I hate people that quote dictionaries to try and prove their point.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I strongly disagree with what you said in the first part - although it's a fine feel good fantasy to wish collective punishment on all palestenians it will not solve the problem in the long run - not to mention how evil the idea is, let alone if such a nazi style einsatz was carried out by Jews.
And no, ethnic cleasing does not singly imply genocide, forced relocation as you are advocating is enough.
Who said anything about punishment? Israel is hated by most other middle eastern countries including the Palestinians. They are being continually attacked by the Palestinians now. Do you think the Palestinians will ever stop? Even if their so called occupied lands were restored? Seems very doubtful to me.
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CNN made a big fuss about something pretty small.
The attack was made IMO to put some pressure on Assad. It worked when the IAF attacked two Syrian radar stations in Lebanon - Suddenly the Hizballa went quite. There was also a more "personal" messege delivered by the IAF to Assad about a month or two ago. I'm not sure what and if was published in international media.
why now? I don't know. The restaurant bombing in Haifa was the excuse, not the reason.
"ethnic cleansing" - I don't know what you guys are talking about. It ain't gonna happen, like the KKK isn't about to clear the USA from black people any time soon. Israel is moving population into the occupied territories, not taking out. If any population is about to be cleansed it's the israeli settlers - sooner the better.
Those "Pan-Arabs" have tried that crap before. They got their tulips handed to them.
as one of those that would have to go out and hand their tulips to them by risking his own ass, I much prefere if they keep it to themselves in the first place. and I urge Sharon not to encourage them.
Bozon
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So forcibly removing millions of palestenians from their homes is not punishment? I suppose you think suicide bombers kill all those people because they love them?
:eek:
But hell the way they have both been doing it for the past 50 years is way cool by me.. I mean how many chances in this boring modern world do we get to see video of Tanks running through rubble strewn streets or piles of mangled bodies sprawled all around blown up burnt out city busses these days - FUN STUFF!
:rolleyes:
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What are you talking about Grunherz?? Of course the Palestinians hate the Israelis. That's what I said. Do you think the Palestinians will ever stop their bombing as long as there are Jews in Jerusalem? What's the solution then?
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So deporting all palestenians into a freshy conquered syria would do what? Why not move them to madagascar?
You use the word "deporting" or "relocating", tell me what happends if some palestenians dont want to move?
Tell me why should they let the israeli army pack them into trucks or rail cars - what would then stop the israelis from just gassing them all?
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Tell me what happens when Israel goes to war with say Syria and/or another middle eastern country and the Palestinians decide to take advantge and begin more open attacks?
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They get deported to Syria. and resume attacks from there?
Tell me what happends to Israel's moral aothority then?
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Many of them get killed and the rest moved into what used to be Syria. Morality sometimes plays second to survival.
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What about the perfectly normal Syrian citizens currently living there - where don they get lovingly relocated by the israeli einsatzgruppen?
Are you nuts? I really thought the whole stalinist/hitlerian/milosevic mass ethnic population resettllement
thing had been done to death allready - hey thats practcally a pun.. :rolleyes:
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Relocation is more humane than saying that's it and responding in full force to the war that's been declared and is being waged by the Palestinians.
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No, forced relocation is no way humane. No, no, no, no...
Would you accept it if your family was told one day to leave your home for some foreign land by Russian soldiers?
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Its a little different if Americans were suicide bombing, or participating in terrorist like activities, within Russian borders.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No, forced relocation is no way humane. No, no, no, no...
Would you accept it if your family was told one day to leave your home for some foreign land by Russian soldiers?
Isn't that what the Palestinians want from the Israelis? For some of them to leave their homes and relocate? Isn't that why some of them arm themselves with bombs and blow up busses, restaurants, and other public gathering places?
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I guess you could call what the Palestinians are trying to do ethnic cleansing. In fact, they are the only ones doing any ethnic cleansing in that area, right?
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I say Israel more than gives back everything thrown at them.. So far the KD is over 3 to 1 since the last round of violence started.
But hey you guys wanna deort all the palestenians, if you think thats a good thing then so be it.
My people did that and worse and then that was done on us when the fortunes reversed all in a 50 year period... Wont solve a thing.
Now killing all, well most all the arabs and muslims in the world once and for all would do it though. And knowing how many nukes Israel has - why dont they try that? It would all be over in less than one hour....
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Its a little different if Americans were suicide bombing, or participating in terrorist like activities, within Russian borders.
-SW
Lets say Americans are, how u feel about it? Or how bout some heavily armed Taliban show up at your house all pissed off at what the USA did in Afghanistan - they tell you to move to canada or else... What then?
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You avoided my question Grun.
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AKIron, it is pretty simple to argue a point when you stack the deck, by pretending there are only two options, ethnically cleasing them by relocation, or ethnically cleansing them by killing them. Either choice, by the way, is immoral and not a viable option.
Happily Nashwan present two other vialbe options that do no resort to methods you are discussing. But for some reason you have chose to ignore them. Avoiding those options Iron?
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No I adressed your question perfectly, Israel should just kill them all using their weapons just as the Palestians are trying to kill the Israelis with their best weapons. You see thats what ure saying, that israel behave just like the indsescriminate terrorist groups.
Killing all the arabs is much better than relocating therm all. Because after your Syrian idea Israel is gonna have to find some way to relocate all the arabs in the mideast somewhere bacuse that course of action will solve nothing and will only amplify the arabs percetion that israel must be destroyed.
But I'm really all for that, a general war in the mideast - hopefully they will use nukes - both sides if possible - that will be cool to watch on CNN. Tel Aviv and Cairo going up in a nuke fireball - awesome!!!
:rolleyes:
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My question Thrawn was "isn't that what the Palestinians are trying to do to the Israelis?" Ethnically Cleansing them from their claimed land? And they are resorting to terrorist activity to do it. Are you denying this?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No I adressed your question perfectly, Israel should just kill them all using their weapons just as the Palestians are trying to kill the Israelis with their best weapons. You see thats what ure saying, that israel behave just like the indsescriminate terrorist groups.
Killing all the arabs is much better than relocating therm all. Because after your Syrian idea Israel is gonna have to find some way to relocate all the arabs in the mideast somewhere bacuse that course of action will solve nothing and will only amplify the arabs percetion that israel must be destroyed.
But I'm really all for that, a general war in the mideast - hopefully they will use nukes - both sides if possible - that will be cool to watch on CNN. Tel Aviv and Cairo going up in a nuke fireball - awesome!!!
:rolleyes:
So, you avoid a reasonable answer because you have none?
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How did the israelis claim the land?
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It is simply the natural extension of your policies. How do you thgink the arab world will react to israel forcibly resettling millions of arabs after having conqured and subjugated syria.
Get out of your fantasy mindset, there would be serious consequences to such an act.
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What the hell? I don't have any policies. Just trying to see where this is all headed and what might be the path of least resistance or bloodshed.
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Yes advocating the forced expulsion of millions is not a policy...
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Originally posted by AKIron
What the hell? I don't have any policies. Just trying to see where this is all headed and what might be the path of least resistance or bloodshed.
Least resistancs? Least bloodhed? Do you think these people will just let the israeli army simply herd them into cattle cars for a comy trip? Would any people do that after WW2 or Bosnia? It would be a bloodbath....
You obviously havent thought this through...
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Originally posted by AKIron
My question Thrawn was "isn't that what the Palestinians are trying to do to the Israelis?" Ethnically Cleansing them from their claimed land? And they are resorting to terrorist activity to do it. Are you denying this?
No, it is what some Palasinians are tyring to do. Others are doing it for retribution, others to try and force the settlers out of thier land. But by far, the vast majority of Palastinians aren't blowing themselves up at all.
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I don't think you've considered the full impact of what a no holds barred war in the middle east might be like. By the time it's over the Palestinians may be more than willing to move a few miles from where they are. If there are any left.
If you look at my first post you'll see I'm only speculating about what may be motivating their current actions. And yeah, I'm not hiding my lack of sympathy for the murderous Palestinians.
Please tell me why the Palestinians are so intent on the ethnic cleansing of their lands and how it's justified?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Please tell me why the Palestinians are so intent on the ethnic cleansing of their lands and how it's justified?
Geez, I thought you caught my drift in my last post. Using the generalisation "the Palastinians" is rediculous. It implies that all the Palastinians on intent on enthically cleasin their lands. Can you prove this is the case?
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I didn't bother reading any further the the post title, and I'll say It's about time.
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Maybe our media is so right wing that they intentionally fail to show all the anti-terrorism rallies in Palestine? Or detail the actions taken by the Palestinian leadership and police force in curtailing the continual mass murders? Not the Palestinian police force that occasionally conducts firefights with the Israelis, the one you're refering to. Or how about all the interviews we're missing where the average Palestinian reveals how revolted they are at all the unncessary bloodshed. Maybe I'm watching the wrong stations, maybe they're only on Al Jazeera?
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Well if it was indeed a terrorist camp. I hope they all died painfull fiery deaths that lasted a long time.
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Why dont the israelis expell all palestenians?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
It would all be over in less than one hour....
Sounds like a plan, I'm tired of hearing about it.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Maybe our media is so right wing that they intentionally fail to show all the anti-terrorism rallies in Palestine?
Maybe they don't. However, the implication of you statement is interesting. Because the Palastians don't have anti-terrorism rallies they are all for terrorism? Remember my issue was with the all inclusive, "the Palastinians".
Strangely enough you have still yet to proved proof that substantiates you statement that they all wish to ethnically cleanse their land.
Or detail the actions taken by the Palestinian leadership and police force in curtailing the continual mass murders?
Ah, so because the Palastinian leadership gives tacit, if not outright, support of terrorism, all the Palastinians support terrorism. Kind of like, how because the the US goverment were for the war in Iraq, all American citizens were. Of course, they weren't.
Not the Palestinian police force that occasionally conducts firefights with the Israelis, the one you're refering to.
Are you saying that the Palastinian Authority has firefights with the IDF? Can you please provide a source documenting this, because it's news to me. If they occure, do they occur do they occur in Isreal, or is it when the IDF invades the West Bank and Gaza strip. If that is the case I don't see how defending you country from an armed invasion can be considered terrorism.
What's more are all Palastinians are part of this force, or some?
Or how about all the interviews we're missing where the average Palestinian reveals how revolted they are at all the unncessary bloodshed.
Great, now we are getting somewhere. The average Palastian is much different that all the Palastinians.
Of course we don't protest marches in the US against the war in Iraq anymore either, does that mean that all Americans are for the war? Of course not.
Enthic cleasing by relocation is immoral. It's immoral because it's a trial in abstentia of every Palastinian for this simple crime of being born Palastinian. Not for any actual action, not even for their actual thoughts and feelings, which of course isn't a crime anyway. And this is why generalisation is so very dangerous.
Not to worry though it won't happen. It won't happen because the Israel people wouldn't let it happen.
PS: Grunherz, it's very disconcerting being on the same side of an issue with you. Please switch. ;)
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But what is the average Israeli women and children right to be clear of suicide bombings? If you cant hold your citizens away from suicide bombings, then you dont have right to have country. Israelis should do cleansing operation in Palestinia. Mobilize all forces and kill everyone that lives within 10 meters of explosive material. Thats how it has worked previously and how war works generally, you wannabe partisan, then die like one. 10 000 of Africans starve to death every month, life is tough, people die you know. Better be on the winners side. Morality is for peacetime, if you want to have perfect moral and wage war, then you should destroy all your weapons and ***** slap your opponents.
I understand Isrealis standpoint completely, they have right to end this thing fast, its been already been on for tens of years. Every peaceful solution that is within any reasonable limits has been tried atleast twice. Enough is enough. Yeah i am a nazi, there is no difference between outright slaughter and gassing few million people because they are jews.
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Strangely I agree with GRUN ...
Don't you think you are slowly becoming an Euro***** ?
Prepare to be assimilated :p
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I'm hoping being on the same side of an argument with Grunherz is a temporary thing that will quickly pass.....God I hope so... :eek:
Tronsky
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Well I find the idea of a nuclear vitrification of the area seducing :)
Imagine : doing ice skating with a bright sun ... it would be pretty attractive for the tourists ... (I admit the radiation can be a problem at first )
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My fantasy anti-communist ravings aside, I dont like genocide type solutions or any of it's cousins such forced mass expulsions and resettlements. Really I thought that decent people learned how bad all that was with the last century oh Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot or Milosevic or even after 911, an event of that magnitude considering some 25,000+ civilians were targeted for death..
I guess I was wrong...
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Man, ~S~! Grunherz, Thrawn, and Nashwan (hope I didn't forget anyone as it's late/early.)
Grunherz, Rip was right about you, we're in good hands :)
Thanks, man.
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Just trying to see where this is all headed and what might be the path of least resistance or bloodshed.
The path of least resistance and bloodshed is to remove the settlers (some or all), and establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza strip.
That's the solution that's backed by almost every country in the world, including the United States. It's backed by the main oposition party in Israel, and even Sharon says it's the plan he's working to.
Isn't that what the Palestinians want from the Israelis? For some of them to leave their homes and relocate?
The more moderate Palestinian leaders want the Israeli settlers out, so that they can establish a state. The more extreme, like Hamas, want to destroy Israel totaly.
The majority of the settlers have been in place for 10 years or less, the vast majority for less than 20 years.
I guess you could call what the Palestinians are trying to do ethnic cleansing. In fact, they are the only ones doing any ethnic cleansing in that area, right?
Not really. Under international law, the Israeli settlements are unlawfull. Wanting to remove them is about as much like ethnic cleansing as America deporting illegal immigrants.
Tell me what happens when Israel goes to war with say Syria and/or another middle eastern country and the Palestinians decide to take advantge and begin more open attacks?
They cannot begin more open attacks. Their heaviest weapons are a few rpgs. They have no army.
Of course the Palestinians hate the Israelis. That's what I said. Do you think the Palestinians will ever stop their bombing as long as there are Jews in Jerusalem?
Yes.
With statehood comes responsibility, wether they like it or not.
I have no doubt some Palestinian groups will want to continue a terrorist campaign against Israel, but I have no doubt a Palestinian government will have to clamp down on them for it's own sake.
It pretty much happened the same way in Lebanon, and unlike the PLO, Hezbollah are an Islamic movement, and so less likely to agree to peace with Israel.
Of course, a clearly defined border, with proper border controls, will make it very difficult for terrorists to cross, even if the Palestinians on the other side were not cracking down on them.
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Escalation can only help the nutters in the Israeli ultra right-wing in their push for "greater Israel".
An open war between Syria-Lebannon and Israel would be a walk in the park for the Israelis and might just set the stage for yet another "voluntary" mass exodus of palestinians into Jordania and Egypt.
I would not put this kind of machiavellism beyond thugs like Efraim Eitam & Co.
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now the US should veto Syria's latest UN whine
again - WTG Israel !
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we got confirmation it was a terrorist camp or is he just being a party drone?
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
we got confirmation it was a terrorist camp or is he just being a party drone?
Yeah, the Israelis said it was a terrorist camp. They know these things. What kind of confirmation were you looking for anyway?
Syrian? "Yeah, it was one of our terrorist camps"..?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Relocation is more humane than saying that's it and responding in full force to the war that's been declared and is being waged by the Palestinians.
Iron.....
No other Arab country want's the palestinians....imo, the conflict serves their interests perfectly...keeps the focus off of them and onto Isreal.
The palestinians are being used by other Arab countries to perform their work against Isreal all while those same countries fund this conflict from a distance.
The only solution will come by this and this alone...Armageddon.
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CNN made a big fuss about something pretty small.
The attack was made IMO to put some pressure on Assad. It worked when the IAF attacked two Syrian radar stations in Lebanon - Suddenly the Hizballa went quite. There was also a more "personal" messege delivered by the IAF to Assad about a month or two ago. I'm not sure what and if was published in international media.
why now? I don't know. The restaurant bombing in Haifa was the excuse, not the reason.
"ethnic cleansing" - I don't know what you guys are talking about. It ain't gonna happen, like the KKK isn't about to clear the USA from black people any time soon. Israel is moving population into the occupied territories, not taking out. If any population is about to be cleansed it's the israeli settlers - sooner the better.
quote:
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Those "Pan-Arabs" have tried that crap before. They got their tulips handed to them.
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as one of those that would have to go out and hand their tulips to them by risking his own ass, I much prefere if they keep it to themselves in the first place. and I urge Sharon not to encourage them.
Bozon
Excellent post Bozon. Most Americans are unaware of an Israeli position counter to the Likud viewpoint.
Charon
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets say Americans are, how u feel about it?
Well, see as how Americans are over there launching a covert campaign to rid the Russian people from the face of the planet - I'd except some retaliation, I highly doubt they'd be as nice as a relocation... well maybe a radioactive relocation. The term "Get the hell outta dodge", yeah you wouldn't find me or mine in America until that sh** storm blew over.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Or how bout some heavily armed Taliban show up at your house all pissed off at what the USA did in Afghanistan - they tell you to move to canada or else... What then?
This has absolutely nothing in common with the first "what if" you threw out there, so beyond what I'm typing here - I won't reply to it, because it also has absolutely nothing in common with the Israel/Palestinian conflict either.
-SW
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Well I can tell you what would happen if any armed anyone came to my door. Telling me to convert move etc etc or die. There is going to be a big firefight. But I would NEVER walk into a place filled with civilains woman and children with a bomb strapped to my arse. The muslims doing these acts of murder are animals that deserve to be cleansed from this planet. Hopefully slowly and painfully.
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I have 2 thoughts on this:
1: We have no other option than to support Isreal on this, they are fighing the same type of war we are right now, a war on terror ,peroid. The only option is to either build a huge wall and expell all palisinains or kill all the terrorist. Nothing else will work. Sharon is supporting terrorism and should be executed, end of that story.
2: These homicide bombings are acts of terror. The definition of an act of terror is: Using the destruction of property and death of innocent people to achieve a political purpos. (according to the FBI guy that tought the last WMD class I was in)
Isreal is respondidn by using a legit military to target legit military targets (terrorist). The innocent that die from those attacks are the fault of the terrorist not the Isralies, adn are colateral damage. This happens in war.
Straping a bomb to your chest and walking into a resturant or a market or on a bus and setting it off is targeting innocent civilians in order to make a political statement (see def. of terrorism above).
Kill them all!!!!!!!! WTFG Isreal, was wondering how much longer you could sit on your hands.
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SW all that matters is that these enemy people think they have a reason to come to your home and demand you leave with them to some deportation processing facilty - whether YOU think that is a just reason or not is obviously irrelevant to them.
So do you go peacefully?
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SImple if it wears a turbin and smells of camel watermelon shoot it:D
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I was only commenting on your comparison, not on the issue of relocation between the Israeli's and Palestinian's that you and Iron and talking about.
If they can't live as neighbors peacefully, I highly doubt forced relocation would be anything other than a blood bath.
I don't pretend to know what to do in that region. Personally I don't forsee any outcome other than large war that will escalate until the majority of the world (Europe, Russia, US, UK and Canada) become involved. IMO of course.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I was only commenting on your comparison, not on the issue of relocation between the Israeli's and Palestinian's that you and Iron and talking about.
If they can't live as neighbors peacefully, I highly doubt forced relocation would be anything other than a blood bath.
I don't pretend to know what to do in that region. Personally I don't forsee any outcome other than large war that will escalate until the majority of the world (Europe, Russia, US, UK and Canada) become involved. IMO of course.
-SW
Yep forced relocation would only result in a disaster.
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Disaster worse than what they are currently experiencing? Worse than frequent bombings causing constant uncertainty and fear? Sooner or later the breaking point will be reached.
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Put yourself in their shoes for a minute Grun. Imagine that everytime you go out in public you wonder if the stranger next to you is about to kill you and your family and/or friends. This isn't irrational fear I'm describing either but a very real possibility. However, a person can take only so much stress like that before they do become irrational.
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Originally posted by icemaw
The muslims doing these acts of murder are animals
Yep, homo sapien, just like you or I.
See as what the topic of this thread is concerned, I though I would post the following article.
"Mideast 'martyrs' often manipulated by masters
Ian MacLeod
The Ottawa Citizen
Monday, October 06, 2003
Suicide bombers are often no different from people who kill themselves out of deep personal anguish, according to a new study by one of Canada's leading suicide researchers.
In what is sure to be a controversial finding, Dr. Antoon Leenaars found the central motivation for some Middle East suicide bombers, Palestinians in particular, is not politics, but depression and despair. Terrorist groups often manipulate the emotional misery of such individuals, especially the young, and induce them to sacrifice their lives for the group's political cause.
Suicide bombers "don't differ much from others, except what they're feeling is a loss of freedom. They're depressed about their freedom," says Dr. Leenaars, a Windsor, Ont., psychologist and past-president of the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention.
"There's still anger, there's still unbearable pain, there's still anguish. But their anger is towards the Israelis, as opposed to anger towards Sally or Mary or whatever. These people may not be as different as you and I think."
Dr. Leenaars is an internationally recognized expert on suicide notes and much of his latest research is based on deciphering the background, final messages and suicide notes of bombers. His study also explores forms of "altruistic suicide," including sati, the ancient Hindu custom of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre, and the self-immolations of Buddhist monks protesting the Korean and Vietnam wars.
His work is to be published in the January edition of the Archives of Suicide Research, the quarterly journal of the International Academy for Suicide Research. Dr. Leenaars is the journal's editor-in-chief.
While suicide bombers are considered by most people to be terrorists, the sociology of suicide classifies them as altruistic deaths, motivated by a sense of duty to their social group. A classic example is the soldier who unquestioningly accepts a "suicide mission." Another is the political martyr.
Dr. Leenaars examines, among others, the case of Arien Ahmed, a 20-year-old Palestinian business administration student who was to be a suicide bomber. Her case was the focus of a major exposé in The New York Times in 2002 after she gave a jailhouse interview to Times reporter James Bennet.
"She was to be a martyr, what we call an altruistic suicide, although others would claim, a terrorist," Dr. Leenaars writes in his upcoming article. "Yet, she fit no known terrorist pattern. There was no lengthy training, no connection to a dissident group and so on -- she was only shown how to push a button on a bomb. She was, however, to become a suicide bomber because of duty -- her society saw an obligation for people to kill others, the Israelis, by killing themselves."
Palestinian society, he says, is a culture that fosters anguish, despair, hopelessness and helplessness.
"This was true for Ms. Ahmed. Her father, for example, had died when she was six years old. Her mother remarried and abandoned Arien. She was alone.
"Ms. Ahmed, however, made friends, did well in school and lived with her extended family. In The New York Times, her family is reported to have stated that Ms. Ahmed, 'hid a great deal behind her bright smile'."
But the family was unaware of just how deep her anguish ran and of her sudden suicide mission.
Ms. Ahmed had only offered to blow up herself five days before the planned act. On May 22, 2002, she was approached at Bethlehem University, shown a bomb and how to trigger it. She was soon placed in a car, dressed as an Israeli, and sent off with an accomplice.
What was the motivation?
"Not duty, but to avenge -- there was deep aggression -- the death of her fiancé, Jaad Salem," a member of the Tanzim, the militia connected to the violent Palestinian group Al Fatah. After his death, Ms.Ahmed felt she had lost her future. She wanted to die and join Mr. Salem in the afterlife. Al Fatah convinced her she should do that by martyring herself for its cause.
"This reads like a suicide note," says Dr. Leenaars of Ms. Ahmed's circumstances. "She was depressed and forlorn; she believed that the Israeli soldiers had killed her fiancé. (Israeli intelligence agents told the Times he had accidentally blown himself up.) Her pain was deep. Her needs were frustrated. She wanted to attack, to have revenge. These are not atypical markers of most suicides.
"Yet, to her social group, she would become a martyr, a hero. Her death was not to be seen as a suicide, or an act of terrorism, but an act of martyrdom," a notion that Ms. Ahmed told the newspaper she found "stupid."
As she neared her bombing objective in the town of Rishon le Zion, Ms. Ahmed later told Mr. Bennet she remembered a childhood belief, "that nobody has the right to stop anybody's life."
At the last moment, she turned back. Her accomplice carried through, killing himself and two Israelis. Ms. Ahmed is now in an Israeli jail.
Reporter Bennet says she agreed to be interviewed to discourage other Palestinians from suicide attacks, and to gain sympathy for herself. The Israeli Security Agency, he wrote, appeared eager to allow the interview to illustrate how easily militants manipulate susceptible people and send them to kill and die.
© Copyright 2003 The Ottawa Citizen"
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Israel trying to forcefully relocate millions of Palestenians, not to mention the fact you will have to invade Syria and relocate millions of Syrians as you suggest will end up in the death of hundreds of thousands of people.
Just imagine how the israeli army will have to behave in Syria, llok at all the annoying troubles we are having in Iraq - a country that by most measures actually appreciates our presence there and likes our soldiers. Now imagine if we all of a sudden our army told millions of Iraqis we would deport them to Iran....
This suggestion of yours to forcefully deport entire populations of millions of people is so callous and ignorant and such an armchair fantasy of one man who has no responsibilty and no accountabilty to actaully carry out such an adventure, its simply staggeringly stupid.
You just imagine how the IDF will be treated at every home in the west bank, gaza and Syria when they knock on the door and demand the family leaves. And you know what tanks, APCs and F16s with laser guided bombs cannot deport people. Some young Israeli kid with an M16 and a helmet will be doing it and doing it hundreds of thousands of times and getting shot at every step in every tight narrow street in the territories. What will the IDF do if one family barricades itself inbtheir house, blow it up? Kill everyone inside? Well they will have to do it over and over again and then it will become genocide.
NO whoopee HITLER STYLE MILOSEVIC STYLE STALIN STYLE DEPORTATIONS!!!!!!
And you know what I dont really have to imagine very hard what that is like because my family was forced to become refugees when the gentle serb relocation officers decided it would be safer for croatinas to relocate and not face the terrors of being killed.
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!
You have no clue what you are talking about... Stop talking and start thinking more, please, please just think of the monstrosity you are suggesting...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Israel trying to forcefully relocate millions of Palestenians, not to mention the fact you will have to invade Syria and relocate millions of Syrians as you suggest will end up in the death of hundreds of thousands of people.
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!
You have no clue what you are talking about... Stop talking and start thinking more, please, please just think of the monstrosity you are suggesting...
Look Grun, stop being obtuse. What I said was conjecture. I'm not in charge of Israeli policy or war making, or anyone elses for that matter. But, do you not see the current monstrosity that is actually being perpetrated by the Palestinians? Please calm yourself, I'll feel guilty if you give yourself an aneurism.
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Sorry Thrawn you can wrap all the psyco babble around it you want to. You will never make me believe that suicide bombers are human like me. They are animals they deserve no pity no reward no tears. They and the animals that lead them deserve death plain and simple. Hopfully as slow and painfull as possible.
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If somebody came on here supporting the stupid palestenian terror campaign, in conjecture or otherwise, I would argue with them just as I am arguing with you.
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Originally posted by culero
~snork~
Those "Pan-Arabs" have tried that crap before. They got their tulips handed to them.
More than once ;)
culero
In Yom Kippur in 1973 the Syrian/Egypt forces were about a week away from Israeli collapse - if the US hadn't massively reinforced Israel with aircraft and more importantly ECM equipment there was a good chance they would have lost the battles on the purple line.
As it was the Egyptian ability to cross the canal and hold ground in the first week won them back both the canal and the Sinai in later peace negotiations.
I don't think the world would have allowed Israeli annihilation in '73 they were still popular then - but with USA intervention they would have lost both the Sinai ( which they did in return for peace) and the Golan - Syria would have taken it and then held for a cease fire.
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Originally posted by icemaw
Sorry Thrawn you can wrap all the psyco babble around it you want to.
Nah, I'm sorry you don't understand the article. There was no moral judgement in the article. It wasn't trying to justify. It was trying to explain.
You will never make me believe that suicide bombers are human like me.
And I guess WW2 bomber pilots that targeted civilians aren't human like you either. (thanks -Kats)
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Suicide bombers aren't trying to stop a world war in progress Thrawn. That's such a pitiful stretch.
Your usually pretty good on the bbs, but that's just retarded.
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The creation of Israel was one of the worst historical mistakes of modern time.
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No doubt a swiss nazi banker like you hates Israel, I mean they might even try to stand up for their citezines - some of whom may even want their family valuables back..
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
As it was the Egyptian ability to cross the canal and hold ground in the first week won them back both the canal and the Sinai in later peace negotiations.
That was probably the last time an Arab army was able to accomplish anything over a non-Arab opponent, and when it was over they lost it of course.
Most Americans don't know that the #2 country for US aid behind Isreal is Egypt. At least it was, who knows how much Bush is spreading around now to countries like Poland these days.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The creation of Israel was one of the worst historical mistakes of modern time.
The holocaust from Nazi Germany showed us why it was necessary to develop a modern Israel. The continued goal of a Greater Israel from the radical right is the mistake though. Too many innocent casualties from both sides from the violence. The long term survival of Israel and the developement of a Palestinian State might be in question given the paths taken, unfortunetly. So much potential, too much hate. Looks like the hate is winning.
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That is the basic problem - they just seem to prefer killing each other the past few years over really settling down and talking.
I gotta wonder about Arafat though. Either he is supporting (not opposing) the terror attacks or is completley powerless to infulence the terror groups who are carrying out the attacks. Either way this situation makes him a weak negotiating partner. It will be intresting where he ends up in this process.
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Arafat is undoubtedly supporting the terrorism. Not every individual act, but in general.
The problem is, Arafat is the only one with the status to stop the terrorism, as well.
Israel has vowed not to negotiate with Arafat, and insists on a replacement leader for the Palestinians, but Arafat has the clout to stop any replacement doing the job.
The result is stalemate, which certainly suits the current Israeli government, Hamas, and probably Arafat as well.
Arafat isn't a weak negotiating partner, he's the ONLY negotiating partner. Sharon's refusal to negotiate with him is an excuse to prevent talks.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Arafat is undoubtedly supporting the terrorism. Not every individual act, but in general.
The problem is, Arafat is the only one with the status to stop the terrorism, as well..
you give the fish face "ex"-terrorist way too much credit
you actually think if he were to have Israel kiss his arse (ain't gonna happen) and to agree to whatever and he were to come out and publicly condemn the bombings, they would stop?
hamas or some other nutbag group would put a bullet through his fishface and call him a traitor to the "cause" - the extermination of the Jewish ppl...
Israel knows how to best protect themselves just as we do our own
I say once more syrian evidence is discovered, the US do the next bombing
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you actually think if he were to have Israel kiss his arse (ain't gonna happen) and to agree to whatever and he were to come out and publicly condemn the bombings, they would stop?
hamas or some other nutbag group would put a bullet through his fishface and call him a traitor to the "cause" - the extermination of the Jewish ppl...
Hamas wouldn't dare to assasinate Arafat. Hamas are a minor movement compared to the mainstream PLO, with about 20 - 25% support, and that mainly from their charity work (they run community hospitals, schools etc)
Arafat has already signed one peace deal that was meant to lead to an end to the conflict, ie the Oslo accords. He enjoyed even more popularity amongst Palestinians as a result.
If Arafat concluded a peace deal with Israel, Hamas would try to scupper it with attacks on Israel. Only in a final desperate endgame would they try attacking the PLO leadership, and the vast majority of Palestinians would back the PLO. Arafat enjoys immense support amongst the Palestinians.
Getting assasinated is of course a risk to any leader in the region who tries to make peace, eg Anwar Sadat, Yitzhak Rabin, both of whom were murdered by religious fanatics amongst their own population.
I think Arafat and his henchmen are more likely to defeat any assasination attempt, however. He has after all managed to survive as leader of the PLO for nearly 40 years, and I'm sure there have been more than a few attempts on his life in that time.
Israel knows how to best protect themselves just as we do our own
Israel certainly knows how to protect itself. Unfourtunately, they cannot carry out the logical measures, because it means giving up the West Bank.
The security fence was also supposed to protect Israelis, but it's emerged that the latest suicide bomber actually passed through the fence. Instead of running along the border, it runs through Arab villages, encompasses some Israeli settlements, and is so full of crossings that it's almost useless.
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I keep seeing the settlers as the key of the situation. Bring them onto their side of the green line, build that Golly-geem wall strictly along the green line, mine it and man it with the IDF. That's properly protecting your population.
Terrorism gets more difficult, the occupation ends and with a better situation support for Hamas et al. dwindles, and the palestinians get their state,
The problem of the Israelis is that they are hijacked by nutbags who want both the security and the land, and they really should have noticed by now that they have to choose.
To agree with this you only need to look at the current plans for that separation wall:
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rodack/map1_eng.gif)
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To get back to the actual topic of the thread, the raid on Syria, I said I'd be interested in what the Israeli press had to say about the raid. I thought it was a diversion, seems some of the Israeli cabinet think so too:
Effi Eitam, one of the most right wing politicians in Israel:
"I certainly view this as a distraction for
public opinion in Israel and the world.
Everyone is all excited about an attack near
Damascus, after 30 years. Our problem is not
near Damascus, but near Jerusalem,"
Justice Minister Yofef (Tommy) Lapid:
"I was against it because we are opening a new
international front which we do not need at the
moment, because we needn't endanger ourselves
with renewal of the fighting with Hezbollah on
the northern border, and because I don't think
that this is something that will really aid in
fighting the Jihad,"
Those are both ministers in Sharon's government.
Amram Mitzna, former Labor leader, former IDF general (who disagreed with Sharon over the Lebanon war, when he was a general and Sharon defence minister:
"This government is simply irresponsible,
endangering its own citizens with - there is no
other way to describe this - adventures. What
was the point of attacking Syria? Who can even
explain the goal? Was the goal to calm down the
Israeli public? To divert the public's
attention from our day-to-day problems here and
the government's inability to deal with
terrorism?"
(that's what I think, a distraction, a need to be seen to be doing something, now the other options are exhausted)
Amir Oren, Ha'aretz defence correspondent, comparing it to a method for dealing with toothache:
"Give a wall a nice,
hard kick, until one's leg screams with pain.
This may do nothing to cure the original pain,
but it makes one forget it for a while."
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What
was the point of attacking Syria? Who can even
explain the goal? Was the goal to calm down the
Israeli public? To divert the public's
attention from our day-to-day problems here and
the government's inability to deal with
terrorism?"
I'm still scratching my head over the raid and the choice of target. But I've got a feeling that the real purpose of the raid in Syria was to float the idea of Israel striking different countries in defense of itself and gauging world reaction to it. Next target: Iran's nuclear plant.