Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: muckmaw on October 06, 2003, 08:55:46 AM
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Classify this any way you want.
I am merely looking to either confirm or deny my own beliefs here.
This is a thinly cloaked whine, but not one where I expect any changes to come of it.
This is a standard whine, but it seems to apply.
Now, onto the whine....
Is it my skewed peception or do I fight the same 5 planes 95% of the time?
Spitfire
LA-7
P-51
Niki
109 (Might be 190...I get 'em mixed up)
I ran into another F6 the other day and it was a rare treat.
I actually get excited to see a P-40. The guys who fly the older rides, the less revered planes always get a from whether they win or lose.
Enjoy your Muck Flambe'
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bah!
If it wasn't for all the spits MA would just be everyone running away each other.
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Originally posted by thrila
bah!
If it wasn't for all the spits MA would just be everyone running away each other.
hehehe
Possible Sig material here..:D
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I will admit to flying the LA7 this week. And I sometimes use a spit 5 or 9 for field defense. But my favorite ride will always be my beloved P-38.
Have you noticed a lot more early war stuff this week, since the new map came up? With all the action below 5000 feet, and all the bases so close together, there seem to be less advantage for the late war stuff. And the Jabo work has become much more dangerous with all those fighters coming in from 3 directions.
This ain't necessarily a good thing, IMO. But it is different, and I will play along for a week at a time. This new map absolutely ROCKS from a GV perspective.
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Muck - you forgot the Yak9U.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Muck - you forgot the Yak9U.
Yeah muck, add the Yak9U...all both of them.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Muck - you forgot the Yak9U.
I've not seen them.
The planes I named are the only one's I've seen in mass quantity.
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I feel your pain muck....I see those same birds too
But I jumped an La7 with my bloated A20 last night...sometimes, god favors the foolish :)
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How fortunate! My favorite planes to fight in the MA are Spitfires, LA-7s, P-51s, N1Ks, and 109s.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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here's my list of most killed so far this tour:
Main ride of choice YAK-9U
Spit V 12
la-7 12
P-51D 11
Spit IX 10
190-D9 8
109G10 7 *tied with P-38
But Muck...this happens every tour. Why whine now?
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Well, at least we know folks don't fly those planes just because the planes are pretty good and you can get some kills in them without too much sweat.
And at least we know that folks that DON'T fly those planes don't dislike them simply because they're harder to kill than maybe a P40 or something.
So, it's a real mystery.
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Originally posted by AcId
here's my list of most killed so far this tour:
Main ride of choice YAK-9U
Spit V 12
la-7 12
P-51D 11
Spit IX 10
190-D9 8
109G10 7 *tied with P-38
But Muck...this happens every tour. Why whine now?
I don't know. Guess I'm a little bored of it, I suppose. It's got nothing to do with the map. Maybe it was running into that F6F that set me off.
I guess it's no so bad if I stay near an enemy CV. At least that way, the F4u and the Seafire come into the game.
I wonder if I should turn in my F6 and switch to an LA-7. I'm getting tired of getting outrun.
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Im telling ya Muck, do the A-20. Great forward guns...peppered up a P-47...he struggled to make a forced landing and got popped with some 500's :) Its my plane of the week
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, at least we know folks don't fly those planes just because the planes are pretty good and you can get some kills in them without too much sweat.
And at least we know that folks that DON'T fly those planes don't dislike them simply because they're harder to kill than maybe a P40 or something.
So, it's a real mystery.
The only mystery is what you just said!
Let me work on that and get back to you...
Ok, I got the second part and I strongly disagree.
I have no more trouble with these planes than most others. Sure, some enemy planes are breakfast, but most, if in the hands of a capable pilot, will give me a run for my money. Hell, I'd rather face Joe Newbie in his 262 than Mathman in an F6F.
And that's a problem in the MA. If the pilots only want to win and not enjoy the experience, they may not tinker with other planes, and improve their skills. That's a detriment to us all. You can roll out AH2 now, HT. Just redo the 5 planes. Not many people see the other 3,000 anyway.
In my F6F, the only area I'm lacking is speed. I have little or no escape option in an F6 against the "Chosen 5". But that's the price I pay for the F6F's abilites.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Im telling ya Muck, do the A-20. Great forward guns...peppered up a P-47...he struggled to make a forced landing and got popped with some 500's :) Its my plane of the week
I don't care for the A-20. No rear armament to speak of. Someone gets behind you, you might as well bail.
I'd take the B-26. Better armament, more ordinance, and still has the 6 forward facing 50 cals.
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Your post seem to want to be taken seriously, muckmaw.
I would never had thought of it myself, that it is a pain that some planes are used more than others. I've seen countless threads on this issue.
When I first started out for real in AH I was constantly trying to find and fly the best plane... Now, I'm more drawn to the planes that have some pronounced drawbacks (and thus, some more pronounced strengths). I even have some kills in spit1 and 109e.
I avoid flying the la7, p51d, niki and seldom fly a spit (for no particular reason). These planes feel too common to give me a challenge. It's more fun to succeed in the "lesser" planes.
Maybe this is what many of us feel, but I've resignated to the fact that there will always be people that are almost exclusively drawn to the "best" planes. We have different agendas and likes/dislikes in AH, and to be honest: the planes on the aforementioned list are sometimes the best planes for a given task (if that is what drives you).
Maybe those that succeed in the lesser planes should be glad that the overuse of some planes makes them exotic. People notice those who land kills in underpowered or underarmed planes or whatever rides are considered poor. This would fall away if the plane use in AH is even among (all) planes.
If this post is "tounge in cheek"... then I've been had ;)
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Originally posted by jodgi
I avoid flying the la7, p51d, niki and seldom fly a spit (for no particular reason). These planes feel too common to give me a challenge. It's more fun to succeed in the "lesser" planes.
Maybe those that succeed in the lesser planes should be glad that the overuse of some planes makes them exotic. People notice those who land kills in underpowered or underarmed planes or whatever rides are considered poor. This would fall away if the plane use in AH is even among (all) planes.
Jodgi-
2 Excellent points that I could not quantify in words. I could not agree with you more.
I guess your right.
Example, I never see eye to eye with Lazs, but I always respect the fact that he flies and succeeds in an FM2.
Notice how I remember what kind of plane he flies? Because when he lands kills, I see the text, and it's memorable,
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Originally posted by muckmaw
And that's a problem in the MA. If the pilots only want to win and not enjoy the experience, they may not tinker with other planes, and improve their skills. That's a detriment to us all. You can roll out AH2 now, HT. Just redo the 5 planes. Not many people see the other 3,000 anyway.
Did it ever occur to you that some of us actually enjoy flying what we fly? Hopping in the Spit V fills me with the sort of joy that hopping in a P-47 does not. It's my baby. I could probably jump in other planes and succeed just fine, but I don't want to do that. Why? Because my game experience is all about me, not about you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Edit: Knock yourself out Dead man! I am positively NOT one to suggest that my way of enjoying AH is the "right" way. Please do take up your spitV. If you ever fly for the bish, I'll even wing you so you can teach me to properly love and care for your spit.
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There you go! ;)
I don't pretend to be an excellent flyer or an excellent shot. Whatever success I have is because of always trying to maintain advantage (this, believe it or not, seems to make me a dweeb in some people eyes).
Done with the disclaimer...
Now, one of my favorite moments so far in AH:
I managed to fly and fight smart in a P47d11 and land 6 kills. A guy blurtet out on the all channel: "I tend not to believe that!"
It is good to have crappy planes to show off in :)
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Awww, let's just have fun, shall we?
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Basically, this is one of the oldest discussions on the BBS and it all boils down to this question:
Why don't the other players fly the planes I think they ought to fly? Obviously, if they flew the planes I think they should fly, we'd all have much more fun!
And, if one steps back and actually does a little self appraisal, the answer is glaringly clear.
Let's see.. how shall I put this? I know!
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game!
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The reason I'm a Spit dweeb is simple. I've been fascinated by Spitfire pilots and Spitfires for far longer then I've flown flight sims. Outside of a lottery win, this is as close as I'll get to flying one :)
I'll fly other stuff for fun, but I have the most fun in the Spits. No apologies for it either. If it's not fun, then whats the point?
The hardest lesson I learned in my AW days was that not everyone was going to play the game the way I wanted them to. If I let that piss me off, the enjoyment of the game went away, and I at times let it piss me off. It took me a long time to find the desire to "fly" again because of that.
Now I'm flying AH cause it's fun and I've vowed not to let the other stuff get to me this time around. Hopefully I'll be able to hold myself to it :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, at least we know folks don't fly those planes just because the planes are pretty good and you can get some kills in them without too much sweat.
And at least we know that folks that DON'T fly those planes don't dislike them simply because they're harder to kill than maybe a P40 or something.
So, it's a real mystery.
Werent you in an la7 last night?
OH, and..
(http://locke.artamir.org/ahss58.jpg)
Shortly after this was taken all my countrymates left to vulch the next field over so in the gangbangfest on the remaining people, toad happened to catch me on my.. er.. retreat
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Guppy, Toad, Dead... You all make perfect sense. I never meant to imply that I expect you to have fun the way I (currently) do. I too think the lala and spitdweeb discussion is BS.
(Why is this thread so civilized? I would've expected some saucy contributions by now.)
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Much wisdom there Guppy,
:)
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Originally posted by jodgi
(Why is this thread so civilized? I would've expected some saucy contributions by now.)
Want me to call Toad a hypocrit? i can do that.
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Naw Rut, Thanks for trying, though.
:D
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Yeah, I flew the LA last night. It was what I wanted to fly last night, for several reasons. None of which concern you or should even be of any concern to you at all.
Go back and look at my stats for the last year. Then tell me I fly the LA too much (to suit you?).
It's a faulty premise and an incredibly weak response that merely highlights what I said. Fly what you like. Extend me the courtesy to fly what I like.
All the threads of this type have a basic, underlying premise:
"Other players should play the game/choose their planes the way I tell them to play/choose."
And it's simply male bovine excrement.
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Toad-
That's not what I'm trying to say.
But let me ask.
Why are so many drawn to these planes?
I can see the P-51....glamourous, famous plane.
Same thing with the spit..maybe even the 109...
So why the LA-7?
Or the Niki?
They're nt exactly famous warbirds. You won't find many WWII enthusiasts saying their life long dream is to fly the LA-7.
So why are these planes so popular?
And you can fly anything you want. All I'm saying is it would be nice to see some opposition from something other than these same 5 airplanes.
If these argument has been brought up so many times, don't you think it might have some merit? Or do you think there are 3 guys dedicated to getting perks slapped on these planes and we toss in a post every few weeks?
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you see what you want to i guess....
here's mine this tour so far (exclusively on festerma).
P-51D 27
Spitfire Mk IX 22
P-38L 19
Spitfire V 16
Fw 190D-9 15
La-7 14
Bf 109G-10 11
N1K2 10
Fw 190A-5 8
P-47-D30 6
Bf 110G-2 6
F6F-5 6
Typhoon IB 6
P-51B 5
Fw 190A-8 5
Hurricane IIC 4
Panzer IV H 4
Ki-61 4
C-47A 4
M-3 3
P-47-D25 3
Bf 109G-6 3
B-26B 3
F4U-1D 3
Ju 88 3
A-20G 3
La-5FN 2
SeaFire 2
B-17G 2
Yak-9U 2
F4F-4 1
Il-2 1
D3A1 1
LVTA2 1
Bf 109G-2 1
Hurricane IID 1
P-40E 1
A6M2 1
A6M5b 1
SBD-5 1
C.205 1
FM2 1
P-40B 1
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MuckMAW. It's easy to understand. There is a huge swathe in this community that has no interest in WW2, no interest in learning ACM (which is why you see all the HO) and who just want to pummel a fire button and make stuff go boom. The Spit and LA7 are the easymode planes. P51 is a good survivalist plane if not quite as easy, but still easy enough. Just as folks can't be bothered to spend more than 5 minutes to get to a fight, so are they victims from their own lack of attention span when it comes to learning new ideas/planes. So instead, they'll just choose an easymode ride.
Do not confuse the fact that these oft chosen planes feature so prominently in the obituaries with the reason why they are chosen in the first place. More of them get killed because so many idiots fly them. Look at the kill stats for any pilot ranked in the top 200. In most cases the P51, Spit ix and LA7 will be in the top 5 in his list of fighter kills.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Is it my skewed peception or do I fight the same 5 planes 95% of the time?
Spitfire
LA-7
P-51
Niki
109 (Might be 190...I get 'em mixed up)
Actually, you should clarify. I would suspect that you're fighting the Spitfire IX more than the Spitfire V, Seafire II (unless its a carrier fight), or Spitfire I.
The P-51 is probably a P-51D. Only the better players with guts fly the P-51B on a regular basis.
The LA-7 is over-rated and over-used. The Yak9U is much more of a dogfighter than the LA-7.
You're probably seeing the 109 and 190 in equal numbers, probably the 109G10 and 190D more than the other variants of either plane.
If the Ki-44 were around, there'd be less LA-7 and N1K2 usage. I would think the Ki-44's blend of speed, climb, and four 12.7mm guns would be competitive enough to draw some of the players from the LA-7 and N1K camps. Historically, the Ki-44 could bring down B-29 Superforts so I would think it'd be a pretty popular option in the MA.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/ki44-1.jpg)
(http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-44/fig1.jpg)
(http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-44/fig2.jpg)
(http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-44/fig3.jpg)
(http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-44/fig5.jpg)
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Originally posted by LePaul
Im telling ya Muck, do the A-20. Great forward guns...peppered up a P-47...he struggled to make a forced landing and got popped with some 500's :) Its my plane of the week
One thing I'm going to try this week is taking an A-20 NOE to an enemy airfield and see how many enemy aircraft I can pop on their climb out by using the top turret gun to fire upwards from their blind spot.
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Originally posted by beet1e
P51 is a good survivalist plane if not quite as easy, but still easy enough. Just as folks can't be bothered to spend more than 5 minutes to get to a fight, so are they victims from their own lack of attention span when it comes to learning new ideas/planes. So instead, they'll just choose an easymode ride.
Easymode is the way i like it! :p Actual skill in this plane is minimal, i recommend it to all the fellow rookies like myself!
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... I tend to select my aircraft based on the map in play.
For AKDesert, I usually bring something fast with a big fuel tank that works well at high altitudes, like a 109G10 with drop tanks, 190A8, P-51B, or even a C.205. The distances from the bases, and the altitude of the terrain, pretty much limit the effectiveness of the early and mid-war planes.
For Mindanao, I use the Ki-61 as a counter to all of the navy planes, with some P-38, P-51B, FM2, and Corsair work thrown in for kicks. I'll also use the P-40E and some of the midwar stuff since the bases are fairly close and at sea level.
For Trinity, its long-distance time again, so its P-51B, Corsair, and Yak9U, and 190A8, with FM2 and F4U1D for navy work.
For Big Isles, its P-51B, Ki-61, 109F, and Spitfire V for interceptions, and Corsair from the boats for attack missions.
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Originally posted by gofaster
The P-51 is probably a P-51D. Only the better players with guts fly the P-51B on a regular basis.
BTW .. Actually gofaster P-51D and the P-51B are almost the same planes, just that i need more ammo for the masses in the MA :p.. Doesnt take more skill or "guts" to fly the one or the other ..
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Originally posted by beet1e
MuckMAW. It's easy to understand. There is a huge swathe in this community that has no interest in WW2, no interest in learning ACM (which is why you see all the HO) and who just want to pummel a fire button and make stuff go boom. The Spit and LA7 are the easymode planes. P51 is a good survivalist plane if not quite as easy, but still easy enough. Just as folks can't be bothered to spend more than 5 minutes to get to a fight, so are they victims from their own lack of attention span when it comes to learning new ideas/planes. So instead, they'll just choose an easymode ride.
Do not confuse the fact that these oft chosen planes feature so prominently in the obituaries with the reason why they are chosen in the first place. More of them get killed because so many idiots fly them. Look at the kill stats for any pilot ranked in the top 200. In most cases the P51, Spit ix and LA7 will be in the top 5 in his list of fighter kills.
It's debatable whether I'm an idiot or not, but if you want to equate my flying a Spit with a lack of knowledge of WW2 aviation history, I'd beg to differ. My passion for WW2 history goes back 35 years or so, a lot longer then my flying computer flight sims.
I'd offer another suggestion since we're going to make some sort of connection between WW2 aviation history and AH flying.
Find me one actual fighter pilot in 1945 that would have happily turned in his 51D, 190D9 or Spit IX for a P40, Hurricane or 109E. Now that would have been idiotic.
So why not press for a 1939 Arena, then a 1940, 41 etc. Let the planes that fought each other at that time go at it if the idea is "pure ACM". I'd bet the house the whining would be the same cause there would always be a plane that upset the balance. Can't you just hear the 1941 arena howls from the Spit V drivers about all those 190s. Damn that progress!
But then again this is kind of a pointless argument cause since we're not really dying and this isn't really WW2 aviation, it all comes down to....AGAIN....people finding fun in the game however they choose. And if flying an early war plane make you happy go to it.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by WldThing
BTW .. Actually gofaster P-51D and the P-51B are almost the same planes, just that i need more ammo for the masses in the MA :p.. Doesnt take more skill or "guts" to fly the one or the other ..
Actually, it takes guts to fly with a huge blind spot behind, two fewer .50s in front, grill work to the sides, and downhill compression below. ;)
One of the common complaints of players new to the P-51B is the number of assists they get, instead of kills. Another one is the compression when diving down to attack lower fighters. The D eliminates or reduces the chance of both of these happening.
I prefer the B over the D because:
(a) it climbs faster;
(b) it blends into the terrain better; and
(c) it scores more perks per kill.
Now, if they'd given it a Malcolm hood, it would be my regular plane of choice. But alas....
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Guppy, I didn't say ALL Spit pilots were idiots. I even fly the Spit V & Seafire from time to time.
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Nothing will ever change Muckmaw... people will still do what ever the game let tham do.. and that means each one for his own purpose.
The onlt things closer to real WW2 enviroment are the scenarios and WB2.77... I myself liked the axies vs allies plane set and 3 weeks rotation better, but... that's life.
Needless to say - it's a great whine :)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Guppy, I didn't say ALL Spit pilots were idiots. I even fly the Spit V & Seafire from time to time.
So look at it this way then. Lots of folks find AH. They come in, greener then grass, hop in a Spit, LA7 or whatever comes easiest to them. They play for a while and a couple things can happen. They get bored and leave or become bomber pilots (sorry couldn't resist :).
Or they get better, start feeling some success and start learning more about the history, the pilots, the planes. Their interest deepens and they start to challenge themselves with different aircraft, learning more ACM skills and continuing to push their abilities. As time goes by they end up joining that upper echelon of AH ACM experts.
A third group might include a lot of us too, who don't have the time to spend like we used to, flying all the time, trying to get better. We've found a comfort level in the game and do what we enjoy. I know that's where I am. I'd suggest that lots of this third group may have already done what my second paragraph suggests, whether it be here, Warbirds or Airwarrior. I know I chased it for a while in Airwarrior. Not that I ever got there but I tried :)
Kind of a natural evolution don't you think?
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by beet1e
Guppy, I didn't say ALL Spit pilots were idiots. I even fly the Spit V & Seafire from time to time.
But Beet1e... you are and idiot.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The D has much better visibility, does it not?
If the D and the B are the same plane, why do we always see the -d in the arena?
Is it all a matter of perception?
BTW, here are my numbers..
very little stick time this tour:
N1K 2 5
Boston III 0 3
La-7 0 3
Spitfire Mk IX 0 2
La-5FN 0 1
Typhoon IB 0 1
Spitfire V 0 1
Fw 190D-9 0 1
Now for last tour..
Spitfire Mk IX 10
La-7 9
SeaFire 5
Typhoon IB 4
Me 262 4
N1K2 4
P-51D
Hmmm..
Looks like the typhies getting more play...
How do you get those arena wide usage numbers?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
The D has much better visibility, does it not?
If the D and the B are the same plane, why do we always see the -d in the arena?
Where did one say they were the same planes??
I merely said they were almost the same.. Except for the few minor specifications, like arnament, 6 view, and a couple of the other things gofaster pointed out..
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DMF! :p
Guppy - I agree with everything you've said - wish there were more like you.
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Originally posted by WldThing
BTW .. Actually gofaster P-51D and the P-51B are almost the same planes, just that i need more ammo for the masses in the MA :p.. Doesnt take more skill or "guts" to fly the one or the other ..
The way you wrote it, one would believe the only difference between the B and the D is the amount of ammo.
So the B and the D are the same plane except:
The D has a better 6 View
The B climbs better
The D carries more ammo
Anything else about these planes which are the same but different?
Like I said, if this is a recurring whine, maybe it's because the complaint has merit.
If someone could double check these numbers, I've got the P-51, Spit9, Niki, 109g-10 and La-7 accounting for 23% of the kills vs the knights last tour. (I just picked a country0
Out of 179611 Knights shot down:
The pony got 8,949
The spit 9 got 12,999
The Niki got 7,512
the 109G-10 got 3,234
and the LA-7 got 9816
That's 42,510 kills across 5 planes out of 179,611 kills, or 23%
Are these figures right?
One quarter of all the kills in a 70 plus plane set went to 5 planes?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So the B and the D are the same plane except:
The D has a better 6 View
The B climbs better
The D carries more ammo
Anything else about these planes which are the same but different?
Like I said, if this is a recurring whine, maybe it's because the
One quarter of all the kills in a 70 plus plane set went to 5 planes?
Both 'stangs carry 6 rockets, but the B has these huge toilet paper tubes that cause drag on the return flight.
The Bstang can carry a pair of 500 pound bombs. So can the D stang, but it can carry a pair of 1,000 pounders instead.
The wings seem to fall off of the B stang easier when hit by anti-aircraft flak.
Definitely takes guts to A2G in a B stang in the MA. Between the compression on dive-in, the smaller bomb load, the toilet paper tubes, and the wing rippage, the D stang is the safer ride.
Bring in the Ki-44 and Ki-84 and then we could say that a quarter of all kills went to the same 7 planes. :p
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Originally posted by gofaster
Definitely takes guts to A2G in a B stang in the MA. Between the compression on dive-in, the smaller bomb load, the toilet paper tubes, and the wing rippage, the D stang is the safer ride.
Dont see how there could be "guts" in a game.. But it's pointless to argue, everyone to their own i suppose ;)
Everyone has a reason to fly the plane they fly.. As i do :)
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"Like I said, if this is a recurring whine, maybe it's because the complaint has merit.
Ok ... What if it does have virtual merit ?
The next evolutionary step to this whine is always ....
What can be done to allevaite this plague ? ... How can we force other people to fly planes other than the "Big 5" (planes that they don't want to fly).
Humiliate them ... This is a constant occurence and it never seems to work except for those who are easily swayed by peer pressure.
RPS - Think "Big 5" is a whine ? ... whoa !!! off the scale on this one.
Perk 'em - Discussed ad nauseum with no results.
Any more ideas ?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
All I'm saying is it would be nice to see some opposition from something other than these same 5 airplanes.
Well, I'm tired of seeing F6F's. Why don't YOU fly something I would like to see some opposition from? How about the C-202? I'd like to fight more of those. Oh, yah.. and goon more too. I like killing them too.. don't see near enough of them.
So, why don't YOU fly those for two months and add diversity to the arena?
After all, that's what you're asking of others; should be no problem for you to "walk the walk".
Originally posted by muckmaw
If these argument has been brought up so many times, don't you think it might have some merit? Or do you think there are 3 guys dedicated to getting perks slapped on these planes and we toss in a post every few weeks?
Yah, and like I pointed out, they're essentially all the same argument every time:
"Why don't YOU fly the planes I want you to fly?
The answer is so bloody obvious that it's a continual source of amazement to me that it continues to come up.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I don't care for the A-20. No rear armament to speak of. Someone gets behind you, you might as well bail.
I'd take the B-26. Better armament, more ordinance, and still has the 6 forward facing 50 cals.
Ah, my friend, you need to try the "reverse saddle-up"!
It works like this:
Joe dweeb gets around on the 6 o'clock of your a20.
You jump in the rear gun, and use the rudder keys or pedals or whatever to bank the bird to clear the gun.
Joe saddles up. You shoot him full of .50 caliber holes.
He cusses you on channel one.
It's a real ball. Try it, you'll like it.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Classify this any way you want.
109 (Might be 190...I get 'em mixed up)
Hint: the 0 and 9 are in different places on the icon:)
shamus
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, I'm tired of seeing F6F's. Why don't YOU fly something I would like to see some opposition from? How about the C-202? I'd like to fight more of those. Oh, yah.. and goon more too. I like killing them too.. don't see near enough of them.
So, why don't YOU fly those for two months and add diversity to the arena?
After all, that's what you're asking of others; should be no problem for you to "walk the walk".
Yah, and like I pointed out, they're essentially all the same argument every time:
"Why don't YOU fly the planes I want you to fly?
The answer is so bloody obvious that it's a continual source of amazement to me that it continues to come up.
Toad-
If I needed more of a challenge, I would. But the F6F is plenty of challenge for me to master. I'm giving you diversity now. There's only 6 FRIGGIN F6F's in the MA at any given time!
And you know what...if the arena was full of hellcats, and we know it ain't I would fly something else. If everyone was flying F6F's that means they became the easiest ride to succeed in, translation...less skill required to kill...hence, I would not by interested in flying them.
Im in this game for a challenge, not to club baby seals and declare myself master of the universe.
Slapshot-
Just because a discussion has been had several times does not mean we should just walk away.
You guys are loving the "Fly any plane you want" thing.
I think there should be some type of limitation on what planes are available. Take my favorite ride away first. I dont care. I'll go fly a pony like everyone else.
*shrugs*
Whatever. We're never gonna see eye to eye, so forget it.
Keep screaming the mantra...I pay $15.00...I should be able to do anything I want anytime I want. Rules? WHy have rules? I pay $15.00. I should be invincible. I should be bullet proof. That's how I want to play and I pay $15.00.
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Muck, you have to notice that your post is totally "Muck-centric".
It's all about you and what you want.
Yet you seem to be unable to realize that other people are self-centered as well.
They want to do what THEY want to do... JUST LIKE YOU WANT TO DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.
You just think your way is "better".
You find the F6F more challenging, more diversified, more whatever.
Good for you. Fly it.
Allow others to follow their own desires, OK? And don't cry and moan when they choose a Spit or an La-7 or whatever.
It's THEIR choice.. just like the F6F is YOUR choice.
And you're idea that people should shun "easy" rides is ludicrous. What's an "easy ride" in an arena that allows C202's to compete with Me-262's?
Any ride is what YOU make it. Not everyone has the same goals. Some guys want to fly Spits because they love Spits, not because it's a great blend of turn and zoom.
Here it is:
Not everyone shares your goals. You're going to be continually frustrated if you keep trying to force your goals.. or repetitively posting about how your goals are "better" .... on everyone else.
Fly what YOU like.
Allow others the same courtesy to choose what they like.
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long live the 109G10 and 109F4....................
ive only flown and gotten kills in the 109G10 this tour so ehre are my numbers.
kills deaths
109G10 6 7
ill spit5 in base defense that is about all.
10 kills to 23 deaths in it.(all tards that cant tell im a spit5.)
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So if this thread is only what "Muck wants" why has the subject come up so many times by so many different people? Oh, wait...it's only me. I'm the only one who'd like to see a change.
Meanwhile, your post is completely "Toad-Centric". You can't see that? Talk about the pot and the kettle.
You like things then way they are, and that's good for you.
But you don't want someone to rock the boat for fear you may have to adapt to something new.
Whatever, Toad. I'm not getting into another useless flamewar with you.
You take this game alot more serious than I do anyway.
Keep fighting the same 5 planes over and over and proclaim yourself king of the world.
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Stats Alert!
This data is for the current tour to date. Top 20 vehicles with kills. Only surprise is the number of kills racked up by gvs. Thought this was Aces High?
Perk the Panzer!
Model Kills Deaths Kills / Deaths + 1
Spitfire Mk IX 7914 7067 1.1197
Panzer IV H 7119 8156 0.8727
N1K2 6211 5049 1.2299
La-7 5815 5724 1.0157
Ostwind 5537 2984 1.8549
P-51D 5318 5895 0.902
Ship Gunner 5016 14 334.4
Tiger I 3655 630 5.7924
Typhoon IB 3471 2457 1.4121
P-38L 3232 3674 0.8795
Spitfire V 3179 3521 0.9026
Fw 190D-9 3078 1694 1.8159
SeaFire 2916 2992 0.9743
Bf 109G-10 2620 1838 1.4247
F6F-5 2613 2658 0.9827
F4U-1D 2150 2395 0.8973
Hurricane IIC 1735 1385 1.2518
M-16 1676 2563 0.6537
F4U-1C 1446 503 2.869
B-17G 1442 4004 0.36
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I enjoy flyin the Corsair, the Spitty V and the Seafire. Why ?? Don't know, there fun in their own ways.
I ALWAYS enjoy killin lags, ponies, G10's, nikki's and Yaks in a Spit V.
The big five or whatever ARE more fun to kill. Fly what you want.
It all shakes out.
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LOL!
You totally don't get it Muck!
I don't give a sh t what anyone flies.
I'd NEVER have the incredible audacity to tell someone they're flying a plane that I feel I "see" too much in the Main and that they should fly something else.
If allowing people to pay their money and fly the plane they want is "liking things the way they are" then I da n sure like them the way they are.
If I'm fighting the same plane over and over it must be because that's what the OTHER GUY WANTS TO FLY.
Who am I to tell him how to have fun?
That's being Toad-centric, I guess.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yah, and like I pointed out, they're essentially all the same argument every time:
"Why don't YOU fly the planes I want you to fly?
The answer is so bloody obvious that it's a continual source of amazement to me that it continues to come up.
The answer is always most obvious to those who won't consider opposing views. You sound like someone who is tired of making the same arguement over and over, Toad. Why doesn't the whole community just come around to your way of thinking? Perhaps you're the one who just doesn't get it?
We've all seen this argument come up before, and as Muck points out, by many different people. But it always seems to be slammed by the same few.
Look again at Rutilant's screenshot. Sadly, its not much of an exaggeration. When I look at it, I see a colossal waste of artwork and FM modelling and testing for the vast majority of planes which go nearly unused in AH. Why bother to have more than 5 planes in AH2? Surely it could've been out a lot sooner if only the Big 5 planes were modelled?
Muck never said he wanted to dictate which planes people should fly--you put those words in his mouth so you could shoot him down with your pat argument. He was simply lamenting, as many of us do, that a sim which has been designed to be so rich in aircraft could come to be so dominated by such a small subset of planes.
There is already a proven way in the game to encourage variety without "dictating" which aircraft people should fly. The tricky part is to set up conditions which result in a larger variety of planes being flown, even while people fly what they choose to. Reasonable proposals along these lines have been put forth in the past, but nothing has been done.
Since the C-hog scourge, I haven't heard HTC comment on the issue. I assume they simply don't recognize it as a problem, despite how it seems to resurface on the BB.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So why the LA-7?
Or the Niki?
They're nt exactly famous warbirds. You won't find many WWII enthusiasts saying their life long dream is to fly the LA-7.
Correction : you won't find many "westerner WWII enthusiasts".
I'm a Normandie-Nieman Fan (being Normand and French I guess it's normal) I want to fly the planes of the NN like any XXth fighter group/JG XX fan can.
But there is no NN plane in AH (and I don't want to fly a Yak3 like the one in WB) ... so from time to time I up a Russian plane (yak or La) just for my own pleasure and I don't care of your (or anyone) opinion.
Finaly if you want diversity in the main : show us that you really want diversity and change your own ride you will perhaps start a new trend in the main ...
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Im in this game for a challenge, not to club baby seals and declare myself master of the universe.
... and that's the difference between you and that huge swathe of tardz. I'm right with you, MuckMAW. If you're wanting to fly a midwar plane, it sucks to get cherrypicked or chased down by late war monsters.
Oboe - you put those words in his mouth so you could shoot him down with your pat argument.
Hehe, I see you've noticed the pattern in Mr. Toad's posts. ;)
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kills in
B-17G/ 3
B-26B/ 19
Bf109G-10/ 6
c.202/ 15
F4U-1C/ 12
FM2/ 29
JU-88/ 4
Ships gunner/ 25 hehehehe
Typhoon IB/ 13 --really really really hate this plane
Model type Killed By Died In
A-20G 0 2
A6M2 0 0
A6M5b 0 0
Ar 234 0 0
B-17G 0 1
B-26B 1 11
B5N2 0 0
Bf 109E-4 0 0
Bf 109F-4 0 0
Bf 109G-10 2 2
Bf 109G-2 0 0
Bf 109G-6 0 0
Bf 110C-4b 0 0
Bf 110G-2 0 0
Boston III 0 0
C-47A 0 1
C.202 0 4
C.205 0 0
Chute 0 0
D3A1 0 0
F4F-4 0 0
F4U-1 0 0
F4U-1C 1 6
F4U-1D 9 0
F4U-4 0 0
F6F-5 2 0
FM2 2 19
Fw 190A-5 2 0
Fw 190A-8 4 0
Fw 190D-9 1 0
Fw 190F-8 0 0
Gunner 0 0
Hurricane IIC 1 0
Hurricane IID 0 0
Hurricane Mk I 0 0
Il-2 0 0
Ju 87D-3 0 0
Ju 88 0 14
Ki-61 1 0
Ki-67 0 0
La-5FN 2 3
La-7 10 0
Lancaster III 0 4
LVTA2 0 1
LVTA4 0 0
M-16 2 0
M-3 0 0
M-8 0 0
Me 163B 0 0
Me 262 0 0
Mosquito Mk VI 2 1
N1K2 5 0
Ostwind 2 1
P-38L 2 5
P-40B 0 0
P-40E 0 0
P-47-D25 0 0
P-47-D30 0 0
P-47D-11 0 0
P-51B 0 0
P-51D 3 0
Panzer IV H 3 0
PT Boat 2 0
SBD-5 0 0
SeaFire 1 1
Ship Gunner 9 0
Spitfire Mk I 0 0
Spitfire Mk IX 5 1
Spitfire Mk XIV 0 0
Spitfire V 1 0
Ta 152H 0 0
TBM-3 0 0
Tempest 1 0
Tiger I 1 0
Typhoon IB 3 3
Yak-9T 0 0
Yak-9U 0 0
best fight I have had in this tour was everything when I was flying a 202 :)
so learn to fight em all in the worst plane you can find
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I select a ride based on the mission, then when things are slow I pick something new and give it a whirl.
It would be nice to have some form of separation between early and late war aircraft. How would you do that? CT?
MA is a free-for-all in every way. Always has been always will be, or will it?
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[/quote] so learn to fight em all in the worst plane you can find[/unquote]
That I like. Have a soft spot for mid war 'perk farmers', planes with some obvious disadvantages but advantages too, one of which might be that no-one takes them very seriously. Oh, I never USE the perks, I just collect them :D
Fly 109's now, easy to fly but damn hard to fight in (at least for me).
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Originally posted by straffo
Finaly if you want diversity in the main : show us that you really want diversity and change your own ride you will perhaps start a new trend in the main ...
You want me to change my ride? I already fly a plane that's pretty unusual, but I'll make a change if it will help.
I can go from an F6F to an FM2 or a P-47.
Wait, does it count if I change my ride from the F6 to a p-51? ;)
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not exactly :)
But it seems you want the other to change their own no ?
Change for a non US plane for exemple the G10 it change almost completly the game, for instance I switched some months ago from typhoon to D9 now I switched back it's again different.
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Oboe,
I assume you want to "perk" the aircraft of which you "see too many"?
Shall we all vote monthly? Shall we go by plane kills per tour? Perhaps the famous "rolling planeset"?
Again, the basic underlying argument is "other people don't fly what I want them to fly. Let's find a way to make them fly stuff we want them to fly".
Now one can cloak this in "we need more diversity" or "we're not using all of the rich planeset". But it's still merely an attempt to force someone out of the planes they like merely because the supplicant wants THE OTHER GUY to fly a different plane.
None of the dreaded "Big 5" is an incredible, overwhelming killing machine that can't be bested. Everyone one of them has it's weak point or points. In fact, in Mini's Tour 41 stats (latest I found in a quick search), NONE of the "Big 5" is in the top 18 slots for K/D.
So once again we have folks lamenting that we don't use our rich full planeset as much as we should. Obviously, HT doesn't see Perking based on MA usage as something that needs to be done. As you point out, this stuff is brought up repetitively by folks that want to limit other peoples opportunities to fly the plane of their choice... and don't kid yourself or hide behind imagined noble purpose, that's exactly what is being proposed.... and HT routinely fails to act.
Maybe he's thinking.. "you want diversity of aircraft? The CT routinely features lesser-used aircraft in quasi-historical matchups. There's scenarios that do the same thing, not to mention Snapshots. And, of course there's the DA, a place where the lamenters can go and fly little used, diverse aircraft against one another all night long, to their hearts content, without bothering anyone else."
Funny to see that the lamenters "never said we wanted to dictate which planes people should fly" but almost always include an allusion to making them fly something else like "There is already a proven way in the game to encourage variety without "dictating" which aircraft people should fly."
LOL! We don't want to dictate what you fly, but we da n sure want to push you out of the Big 5 until you get enough perks to fly one.
You guys are too funny.
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LOL
Muck, yer in denial.
Or a severe case of Shatner Syndrome < Clenches fist....maxiumu drama... "Fire!"... >
You're all wound up about what everyone else flies :) Its one thing to make an observation. Another to insist they play to your standards.
Toad has ya pegged :p
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I don't care what plane someone flys so long as they will fight.. The LW panes are just boring to see in the arena as are the typhies and 51's .... Rather see all spits than a variety of the previously mentioned planes..
I like to fly the Yak once in a while. I am too poor a shot to make it work for me tho.
lazs
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So support my NPA.
3~8 points for late war monstrosities.
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Toad, lePaul..
Neither of you 2 know me, so please don't speculate as to my motivations for bringing up this topic.
Oboe said it best.
To me, it's a waste of a plane set to have whatever it is..50 different planes, and all I ever see out my canopy is the same 5.
Is that so hard to understand? That's the long and short of my complaint. You guys can scream whatever you want. The bottom line FOR ME is there is not enough diversity of opponents in the MA.
I'm done with this subject.
Someone else carry on.
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Muck that why it was answered that the only diversity is the one you can add yourself.
It won't change what you can see but it will change the game for you ,and can be quite a challenge for your ego if you try to survive in the MA in early war ride (at least mine got hurt each time I up such a fighter :)
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I see absolutely no need to speculate on your motives.
Muckmaw:
This is a thinly cloaked whine, but not one where I expect any changes to come of it.
This is a standard whine, but it seems to apply.
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If all you guys weren't such meanies going around shooting everyone down all the time we might see planes like 202's, 109e4's, and spit 1's in the ma more often. Maybe pony drivers would wave as they pass high over head and wouldn't have to run away. Maybe those luftwaffe pilots would feel more secure in their rides and not have to complain so often.
Imagine no more ho's or whines, it isn't hard if you try. Maybe everyone can live in peace and let those la7's fly.
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We need to see more Ki-61s. Its a capable aircraft that gets overlooked way too often. Then again, its got that clown-tail paint job that makes it stand out in a fight.
Maybe that's what I'll fly tonight when I go online.
If you see a Rook Ki-61 at 15k alt, fear it! :p
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Originally posted by Toad
I see absolutely no need to speculate on your motives.
Why not? He's speculating why people fly what they fly :)
Maybe those scientists that figured out why cookies crumble and devout some research into this? :D
< Just yanking your chain, muckie-poo :p >
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Originally posted by Toad
None of the dreaded "Big 5" is an incredible, overwhelming killing machine that can't be bested. Everyone one of them has it's weak point or points. In fact, in Mini's Tour 41 stats (latest I found in a quick search), NONE of the "Big 5" is in the top 18 slots for K/D.
That does not surprise me. These are the easymode planes, and as such are often flown by idiots/noobs.
I think Muck has a valid point. Rude & Apache might even agree. ;)
I had an interesting duelling session against Eagler a week or two ago - he in a Spit V, me in a 109F4. A reasonably fair match up, though I gain the impression that the Spits V & IX are more über than in Brand-W. We went at it for several minutes, and never once got troubled by an interloper in a P51/LA7/NIK etc. That's because we were in the CT. Outside of the CT, it's difficult or even impossible to find an historic match up like that. I'd like to try out the Spit-1 or 109E, but there's not much point in the MA - especially for a lone wolfer like me. For folks like myself and Muckmaw, it's frustrating not to be able to find those matches in the MA.
I think it's somewhat fatuous to suggest that a P51 (flown by a competent pilot) can be defeated by a Spit 1 or 109E - unless it's a vulch, or the P51 makes a serious error, or the Spit1/109E has help. If it really was all down to the pilot and not the plane, we might still be using Spitfires to defend our skies against Russian MiGs. :lol
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Originally posted by beet1e
That's because we were in the CT. Outside of the CT, it's difficult or even impossible to find an historic match up like that.
Your solution is staring you in the face.
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I think it's somewhat fatuous to suggest that a P51 (flown by a competent pilot) can be defeated by a Spit 1 or 109E - unless it's a vulch, or the P51 makes a serious error, or the Spit1/109E has help.
Anytime you are shot down / killed is because you made a serious error. Nothing more serious than death.
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Originally posted by Toad
Your solution is staring you in the face.
A relative outsider's view of the CT:
Bad planeset selections.
CMs have an agenda.
Not enough people on to make it worthwhile--pobably due to the above.
shubie
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Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, it seems from the post that Beet1e found something desirable, something that he's been looking to find, in the CT. At least, that's what he said before he changes what he said.
Therefore, one would think he'd return to such a place for more of the same.
And thus it is for those who have a burning desire to "see other types of aircraft than the Big 5" and have "different fights".
There are "different fights going on in the CT, Scenarios and Snapshots (not to mention the DA, where they can pick whatever "differences" they so desire) all the time. It would seem if they truly desire to see different planes and not just "the Big 5" that they would avail themselves of the multiple opportunities in AH to do so.
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Originally posted by Toad
(not to mention the DA, where they can pick whatever "differences" they so desire) all the time. It
not to mention that there are 15k bases in the DA. but what i think beetle really means about hi-alt action is his ability to bounce much lower cons who are probably already busy.
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Gee Muck your making me feel bad for being lazy this week and flying a la7 and niks in furballs. Most of my kills have been in f6s of late but when fuel gets porked I have to switch to something else. So I use a nik with 50% fuel works great in furballs. I like the hurri2 for this also. But I like to land kills and its hard to rtb in a hurri. I used to use the fm2 for furballs but I got lazy and tired of assists with the 50cals. I guess I could start using the yak but its darn clip is so short and I am such a hoser. Hmmm maybe the green zeek that might be fun. White zeek out of the question its guns are a joke. Ki61 no its guns fire too fast otherwise great plane. Hows the yak on fuel when base is porked. Does it have the legs to furball with 25% or 50% fuel?
OK I am on a mission to find a new furballer.
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Guess you've seen him in action too then Shane? ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Guess you've seen him in action too then Shane? ;)
actually, no... but then i don't need to actually witness the dawn to know the sun will come up.
:D
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Do spit pilots ever get tired of seeing so many spits? hmm..maybe that is were la7 sticks come from.
oboe
Your post was eloquent man. I thought it made your case perfectly.
BigWorm
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"I don't like to fight LW planes" and "TnB ufo acm are rubbish and put me to sleep" are inversions of the same idea.
Strange you'd get 190 and 109 mixed up, they fight differently.
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Originally posted by moot
Strange you'd get 190 and 109 mixed up, they can fight differently.
you'd be surprised (or not) how many lw fans don't realize the above and fly them both pretty much the same.
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it's a shame.
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Originally posted by icemaw
Gee Muck your making me feel bad for being lazy this week and flying a la7 and niks in furballs. Most of my kills have been in f6s of late but when fuel gets porked I have to switch to something else. So I use a nik with 50% fuel works great in furballs. I like the hurri2 for this also. But I like to land kills and its hard to rtb in a hurri. I used to use the fm2 for furballs but I got lazy and tired of assists with the 50cals. I guess I could start using the yak but its darn clip is so short and I am such a hoser. Hmmm maybe the green zeek that might be fun. White zeek out of the question its guns are a joke. Ki61 no its guns fire too fast otherwise great plane. Hows the yak on fuel when base is porked. Does it have the legs to furball with 25% or 50% fuel?
OK I am on a mission to find a new furballer.
Im going to try out that Clown tailed plane some one mentioned.
I think it was a Ki-61?
I am really looking for an FM-2 with a little more horse power.
(Thats not a spitfire...or a seafire...*sigh* wiseasses)
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I really don't mind fighting the top 5 a/c. A lot of people who fly them aren't very good and can be shotdown fairly quickly and they usually give a fight, or runaway on the deck and are no longer a threat anyway.
I learned to fly with spits and i still fly spits now.... the spitIX is still my fave ride, i love spits.:) I more or less use the same tactics when flying other planes (which i don't do often) and have success.
I can fly other rides.... but i'd much rather fly a spit.:)
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I'm testing out the P-40E...
So far...pretty lethal, but the guns could use more ammo. Not for a spray and prayer like me, but I'll stick with it.
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Well folks this one is a real ballbuster lol ------like I said before, if you want a change stop flying your normal ride and fly a different one...to culminate all these posts into one, fly what is appropiate for the mission your on --
and if your just furballin quit your complaining and fly something that makes it more of a challenge for YOU......
I actually told a noob the other night to get out of the 51-D and fly a spit till he got used to the flight caracteristics of the simm--it wasnt any fun shooting him down all the time because he was learning......and I was in a FM-2.
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I have to apologize to Toad if I my post was too harsh. Was late, I'd been drinking, and I had just lost a $50 bet on the Buccaneers on Monday Night Football. They were leading the Colts 35-14 with LESS THAN 4 MINUTES LEFT in the game, and managed to lose in overtime 38-35. I'm still shaking my head. #1 defense in the NFL and a 21 point lead late in the 4th quarter. Go figure. Sorry I aimed my outburst directly at you, Toad.
This discussion of diversity keeps coming up I think because there are valid points on both sides. In fact I respect Toad's position and appreciate how he can sum it up with the "Fly what you like; like what you fly" slogan. I also agree with him that the CT, scenarios, and snapshots can be alternatives for those who are fed up with the MA, and I agree that HTC doesn't see the lack of diversity in the MA as a problem, or they would do something about it.
What I disagree on is Toad's assessment of the basic underlying argument - that the pro-diversity crowd is out to dictate what planes people fly. My basic underlying argument is that if HTC advertises the game as having over 50 different aircraft, a user could expect to log in and see more than 5 of them being used.
It stands to reason that if they spent the time and effort to introduce the planes to the game, they'd want people to use them. I don't think it creates a very favorable impression of the game for new users - it reminds me of a garden owner who advertises 50 different species of plants, but when you get there you find the garden choked over with dandelion, ragweed, and quackgrass. If the other species are there you have to look hard to find them.
I don't see perking as "dictating" or forcing me to fly certain planes, and I think that's where we differ also. I think its possible to create circumstances or conditions in the game where at the end of the tour, we wind up with more balanced plane usage, and all the while pilots were free to choose what plane they flew. Could be perking, could be early war/late war arenas, could be something as simple as terrain design and configuration
or server scripted missions.
We'll never know unless we experiment a little. Its HTC's sandbox so how its setup is entirely up to them. It can't hurt to contribute to discussions though- the more players heard from the better idea HTC will have of player sentiment.
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Don't worry about it Oboe. I use the BBS mainly for amusement purposes. It is, after all, a game.
Originally posted by oboe
My basic underlying argument is that if HTC advertises the game as having over 50 different aircraft, a user could expect to log in and see more than 5 of them being used.
Isn't that an unrealistic expectation when the game (HTC) allows each individual to choose for themselves which aircraft to fly?
Unquestionably, the overwhelming majority of the plane set is a "free choice" smorgasboard for the user. Nowhere in any of the advertising have I seen any other emphasis besides "you can fly over 50 different airplanes.
You go into a buffet restaurant and they advertise 50 different entrees, you don't complain because just EVERYONE is eating only the fried chicken.
It stands to reason that if they spent the time and effort to introduce the planes to the game, they'd want people to use them.
Maybe it just stands to reason that they want people to have a choice? Maybe they don't care what YOU fly, as long as you are happy flying it?
If the other species are there you have to look hard to find them.
No you don't. They're right there in the hangar. As Muck seems to have realized, arena diversity starts with YOU and it starts when you click on "Hangar".
You also have to accept the fact that some folks just don't share your goals. They don't care about diversity, they don't care what type of plane they meet in the air. They just want to fly what they fly.
And if this were some sort of democratic "vote", the "diversity crowd" would be in the tiny minority. How do I know? Think about it... people are voting with their mouse button in the hangar every time they launch. And a whole bloody bunch of them vote for Spits, La-7's, -51's, Niks and whatever the other one was.
So even you guys admit "the people have spoken" by the very basis of your argument. The problem is... you don't want to listen to them. ;)
I don't see perking as "dictating" or forcing me to fly certain planes,
Of course you don't; you probably have thousands of perks like I do that you'll never use. This, however, isn't true of every player. And thus you ARE forcing those guys.
and all the while pilots were free to choose what plane they flew
With perking, you'd have to change that to "some pilots".
With separate arenas, it'd be true but HT has said he isn't going to do that. Repeatedly.
AH2 will give you dictated matchups though... but people will have to CHOOSE to play them. That may or may not be problematic.
the more players heard from the better idea HTC will have of player sentiment.
Somehow, I think HT will look at nightly usage stats and consider how many of his players like to fly the Big 5 before he worries about how a few posters don't like to see other people flying the BIg 5.
Just a guess on my part though.
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Originally posted by Toad
You go into a buffet restaurant and they advertise 50 different entrees, you don't complain because just EVERYONE is eating only the fried chicken.
But if the menu had 50 items, including fried eggs and curried beans, and EVERYONE was eating them, you might complain, once the farting started.
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I think everyone should be required to put their CPID in the
signature block so that we can check the stats to see how
valid their arguments are.
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I think server scripted missions could increase diversity without dictating what people fly. Let's say every 20 minutes or so the server creates a small to medium sized mission - jabo, level bomber with escort, fighter sweep, whatever. The server can check some database and employ little-used aircraft for the mission. For pilots who join the mission, the scoring mechanism could give them an ENY bonus or something, so that any kills or destroyed targets by the mission participants earn them big perk points.
So, its simply a carrot vs stick approach to getting some diversity in the planeset usage. Doesn't limit people's choice at all.
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Oboe, if I understand your idea and what they've said about AH2, then you'll get a chance to see how it works. But it won't be in the MA and it shouldn't be in the MA.
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My NPA could be in the MA...
...
I think..
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Originally posted by Kweassa
My NPA could be in the MA...
...
I think..
Which is merely, and yet another, scheme to make people fly something that YOU want to see them fly.
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I hear you Kweassa, who knows maybe it will get a chance there.
I'm not sanguine about it's prospects since Ive never heard HTC comment on your NPA. When they introduced perks they said they were going to play with them some, but they really haven't done much with the system. Basically I see the current perk scheme as responsible for solving the C-Hog problem and preventing aq similiar one with the Tempest and 262. Doesn't really do much else, IMO. Maybe encourages some side switching for low cost perk rides, but I doubt it.
Toad, my idea (and I don't truly know if its mine originally) is just the server scripting a few small missions an hour to give players some incentive to get into some of the less popular rides. Similiar to TOD, but without all the code to track mission success and award medals and promos etc. Players who have no interest in missions wouldn't even know they're going on, apart from the server occasionally issuing a MISSION UP notification on a squelchable channel. Flyers furballing away in La-7s and Spits may only notice an occasional formation of D3As and B5Ns escorted by A6Ms, or a gaggle of Fw190Fs hitting a radar site, or B-26s escorted by P-51Bs harrassing an enemy port. It would probably be indistinguishable from squad operations to most opposing players.
I came up with the idea in about 15 minutes, just to show how arena diversity could be affected with resorting to what you call "limiting" tactics like perks, or an RPS. How can you so quickly dismiss it as having no place in the MA? I can't see how what I've described would limit any player's choice, which seems to be your main problem with all the other plans proposed?
Personally I don't know how successful the TOD arena will be. Not supporting MA squads may wind up being a big negative I think. It'll be interesting to see what kind of community develops around it though.
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Originally posted by oboe
my idea (and I don't truly know if its mine originally) is just the server scripting a few small missions an hour to give players some incentive to get into some of the less popular rides.
Try thinking of it this way. Any reasonable polling of HT's MA player base.. say considering what they choose to fly as their plane of choice... is going to show that a large part of HT's MA player base LIKES to fly the Big 5.
So, seems easy to understand why HT isn't too worried about this to me.
Further, why would HTC bother scripting MA missions when those who long for a) missions b) "realistic" matchups c) structured environment are going to have AH2: TOD?
If I'm on the HTC side of the desk, I'm thinking if you want server generated missions, we're dedicating an arena to that purpose. If you want MA action in all it's unruly and unpredictable confusion, we've dedicated a server to that purpose.
Lastly:
I can't see how what I've described would limit any player's choice, which seems to be your main problem with all the other plans proposed?
No, you're not limiting... in fact you're really offering nothing more in the way of plane choice than we already have.
What you're suggesting is that people will suddenly fly planes they wouldn't normally fly just to be in a "scripted mission.
Yet you yourself could offer this exact situation by building a "reare plane" mission package and encouraging your country mates to "JOIN THE MISSION" on CH2.
So, why do you need HT to do this for you? YOU have this capability RIGHT NOW. Try your theory and see how it goes. You don't need HT to do anything to implement this.
Go for it.
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Originally posted by Toad
Try thinking of it this way. Any reasonable polling of HT's MA player base.. say considering what they choose to fly as their plane of choice... is going to show that a large part of HT's MA player base LIKES to fly the Big 5.
But maybe some people LIKE to fly one of the big five in order to improve their survivability given that they are going to run into many enemies flying planes belonging to the "big five" subset.
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Maybe. But look at the K/D of those aircraft and consider whether flying one enhances survivability for the average player. Obviously, it does not. So there's a likely flaw in your argument right there.
Also, unless HT decides to change the MA setup into ... say... something an only incredibly tiny minority says they want, like a RPS, I doubt that situation would change.
Scripted server missions wouldn't be necessary as an attempt to change that; you can build any sort of mission you like right now and plead with your countrymen to "JOIN THE MISSION".
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Originally posted by Toad
Maybe. But look at the K/D of those aircraft and consider whether flying one enhances survivability for the average player. Obviously, it does not. So there's a likely flaw in your argument right there.
Well, not a flaw, but incomplete. As I have said before, many noobs/idiots fly things like the P51 and LA7 - they're good runners for when they get in too deep. The dweebs without a real interest in WW2 will gravitate towards the easymode planes - and will often make a right buggerysuet and come unstuck. But also, they get to the target area very quickly - a prerequisite for many. The common denominator is low attention span. Fly more than 4 minutes to get to an enemy base? Why bother - an LA7 or P51 will get you there in 3! Learn ACM? Too much trouble - just fly a point-click-shoot aircraft like a N1K, and get all your kills from HO.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well, not a flaw, but incomplete. As I have said before, many noobs/idiots fly things like the P51 and LA7 - they're good runners for when they get in too deep. The dweebs without a real interest in WW2 will gravitate towards the easymode planes - and will often make a right buggerysuet and come unstuck. But also, they get to the target area very quickly - a prerequisite for many. The common denominator is low attention span. Fly more than 4 minutes to get to an enemy base? Why bother - an LA7 or P51 will get you there in 3! Learn ACM? Too much trouble - just fly a point-click-shoot aircraft like a N1K, and get all your kills from HO.
i find this highly amusing when the 2nd most consistent plane, since april at least, you fly is the c-hog... it *was* the #1 of the big 5 before it got slightly perked.
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Well, obviously, HT should have all new game account applicants submit to a personal review by Beet.
Then he can simple disallow any noobs or idiots or even people who are not truly interested in WW2. And of course, anyone that won't play the game his way and fly what he tells them to, in the way that he tells them to fly it.
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Which is merely, and yet another, scheme to make people fly something that YOU want to see them fly.
So?
Maybe people flying something that I pursuade them to fly, might turn out to be more fun.
Not to mention get rid of the persistent complaints about suicide porkings and kamikazes, plus give some planes their role back, instead of being left as hangar queens.
Sounds a lot more practical than the "freedom of choice" metaphysical bullshi* dug up from the pits of pitiful logic, everytime somebody complains about the undeniable overuse of 5 planes.
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overuse?
fine perk the big 5.. then everyone will just be running, running running from action in tiffys (if they survive their kamikaze run - fariz missions ring a bell?>, fws and 109s unless they have an overwhleming advantage.
yaaaawwwwnnnnnnn... i see too much of that already.
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But Shane... we'll simply perk the NEXT Big 5 ad nauseaum.
:D
Tired of seeing the Big 5? Tired of a historical matchups?
Try the CT; it was essentially created to provide you the opportunity to get away from these indignities.
Tired of seeing the Big 5? Tired of ahistorical matchups? Want a regimented, structured environment where serious missions are launched and wars are won (
:lol )?
They're building AH2 as we speak.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe people flying something that I pursuade them to fly, might turn out to be more fun.
I do LOVE this part though.
But of course! "Persuade" them! With the ole Perk Club persuader!
:rofl
Just like the LA cops "persuaded" Rodney King to just slow down a little bit.
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Beetle nailed it. Just because 90% of the flyers are flying one of the big 5 doesn't mean they all really "want" to fly one. Lots maybe flying it because they feel its the only way they can stay competitive when everybody else is flying one. I'd be very interested in the results of a well-crafted poll along these lines - but not a BB poll-- in-game poll, so we get a broad base of responses.
The purpose behind my version of MA server-scripted missions isn't to create realistic matchups. Its just to give an incentive to people to get into an unpopular plane. Part of my idea was the large score bonuses for any kills made while flying in the mission. You're right; I could create these myself and offer them up in the MA, but I couldn't provide the perk incentive part of the idea.
While I could call the MA unruly, I don't find it the least bit unpredictable. With all the choices available, it seems like it should be, but fact of the matter is that its very predictable, and that is why we're here having this discussion.
HTC could also influence plane choice by cranking ENY values to such a point that a single kill of an LA-7 by a P-40B could earn the pilot 100 or more perks. With a payoff like that, maybe more people would choose to fly some less popular rides.
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Originally posted by Shane
i find this highly amusing when the 2nd most consistent plane, since april at least, you fly is the c-hog... it *was* the #1 of the big 5 before it got slightly perked.
before my time, matey. :p
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Originally posted by Toad
Tired of seeing the Big 5? Tired of a historical matchups?
Try the CT; it was essentially created to provide you the opportunity to get away from these indignities.
and so few of the perk 'em all whinetards ever show up in the CT. or even those who are lusting, drooling and otherwise thinking ToD is some holy grail instead of just another style of gameplay.
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Originally posted by beet1e
before my time, matey. :p
doesn't stop you from flying it, even slightly perked, does it?
i think you perk 'em freakazoids are just pissed that some l33t noob pwns you in a "no-skill" plane. it's defintely not their mad skillz that shot you down; must be poor SA on your part, i think.
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Originally posted by oboe
You're right; I could create these myself and offer them up in the MA, but I couldn't provide the perk incentive part of the idea.
[/b]
True, you could not.
However, "scripted" missions won't make the MA any more unpredictable than you find it now. Your Val mission would get slaughtered in short order unless they were incredibly high and I doubt very many would need a crystal ball to predict that.
HTC could also influence plane choice by cranking ENY values to such a point that a single kill of an LA-7 by a P-40B could earn the pilot 100 or more perks. With a payoff like that, maybe more people would choose to fly some less popular rides.
Yeah, he could. In fact, he could have done this ages ago. But he hasn't. I seriously doubt that he's failed to notice it's been proposed many times.
However, of all the idea presented so far in this thread, it's probably the ONLY one that really makes any sense.
Of course, to guys with thousands of perks already, that normally fly the "lesser" rides already, it won't make a bit of difference.
The great unwashed masses that Beet so despises, the poor basteegees that are "noobs and/or idiots" are going to get slaughtered in P-40B's (and the rest of the "lesser" part of the plane set). Even the GOOD P-40 sticks fly the E because the B is just a really tough ride to kill and survive in.
There's a reason new guys and less skilled guys fly planes that are somewhat easier to kill and survive in... no one likes getting waxed all the time.
Of course, some great sticks fly Spits because they like them. These are the guys we should really punish, right? :lol
Anyway, ENY bumps are a harmless proposal and probably would provide a bit more of the sacred "diversity" without forcing anyone or subjecting anyone to the will of the Overlords of Perk.
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Originally posted by Shane
i think you perk 'em freakazoids are just pissed that some l33t noob pwns you in a "no-skill" plane.
^
|
Shack!
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Originally posted by Shane
i find this highly amusing when the 2nd most consistent plane, since april at least, you fly is the c-hog... it *was* the #1 of the big 5 before it got slightly perked.
Whats wrong with flying the C-Hog?
He's not flying a plane that dominates the arena now in terms of sheer numbers. He's also paying the price to fly the C-hog in terms of perks. The man earned his ride.
Shane, Toad, et al..
Uou guys are the masters of AH, the kings of a video game, you should have a million perks stashed away.
What are you so worried about? Is a small perk on planes violating your consitutional rights? Is freedom of aircraft choice in the bill of rights?
Are you protecting the rights of Newbies? Are you worried about HTC's business model?
Is it so terrible to say, 'Hey, let's try Kweassa's perk idea for a tour and see how we like it?".
If we stayed closed minded in life as in this game, we'd still be playing on Minindao with 6 planes. (1 more than I see in the arena now)
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Originally posted by Shane
doesn't stop you from flying it, even slightly perked, does it?
It certainly doesn't, and I don't mind having to earn the pp. I usually fly it off CVs. Very effective at downing the 500ft LANC/Ju88 formations.
But let's not dwell on the past, and what was vogue before I joined. I pay for my CHogs! Perking them hasn't stopped me, though it stopped many others - I am told. Why's that then?
But shane, you clearly know more about the stats data than I do. Can you please tell us when I last flew a plane belonging to the Big Five as it stands now? ie. P51/LA7/Spit ix/N1K (and YAK9U)?
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Toad-
Shane pointed this out and I wondered if you could comment on it..
If perking does not work to limit aircraft in the arena, why is the C-Hog no longer the most common choice in the MA since it was perked?
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nothing wrong with the chog, per se, but when it was people's preferred clueless slobberdonkey HO ride of choice it eventually wasn't cost effective. diminishing returns, anyone? hogs are definitely not as much a "no-skill" ride as the other big 5 "are," are they?
the point i'm making beet1e is that even slightly perking the 5 won't reduce their nbrs and provide the diversity you're hoping for, especially by people who already have enough perkies to fly them ad infinitum.
what you basically want is a vast pool of noobs tooling around in planes inferior to the one you can afford to club them over the head with. that and the ability to run home with your precious mad skillz killz without having to worry about being chased down and spanked by someone who probably has one clue less than yourself.
better to ask this beet1e, when was the last time you flew an early/mid-war plane? your personal "big 5" are all '44+ planes. and actually it's the tiffy, not the yak9u that rounds out the big 5.
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=beet1e&sortby=killsin_sort
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I like kweassa's perk idea, less planes can run from me when i'm in a spit IX.:D
So please...perk away guys.:D
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Muck,
If you go back and actually read the various C-hog threads, you'll find the "easy mode killer" argument figures highly in it. As in, "it's so easy to kill in that it has 20% of all kills".
Nothing wrong with flying it in my book, btw.
However, for a person that continually rails against "easymode" planes, flying it is pretty humorous in a hypocritical sort of way. I think that's what Shane's pointing out.
Your quite right. I have thousands of perks that I will never use. About a month ago, I got a phone call while playing that I had to take. Got shot down, of course. So I upped Spit XIV's and Me-262's as the field was being vultched. Didn't try to take off, just let the vultchers come. Now I got killed more than I killed, but it was a true hoot getting all those prox kills as the slavering hordes dove at full speed, killshootering each other to get the sacred perk plane and the resultant perkies. Blew about 2500 perks during that call... money well spent, I'd say. Best use of perks I've found so far.
Kewassa's "fly like I say to fly" idea? Nah? Like I said, if you want those things, they're already here in AH or will be shortly in TOD. No need to FORCE someone out of a plane they want to fly for lack of perks.
Oboe's simple ENY idea has far greater merit than K's if diversity is truly what you seek. It doesn't force anyone to do anything. Hallmark of a reasonable solution, IMO.
Of course, diversity may not be what is actually sought. :D And I don't see the "diversity" guys jumping on Oboe's simple ENY idea, so... draw your own conclusions.
As for perking/limiting, I don't think you'll ever find a place where I've said perking won't limit a planes use. In fact, I've agreed with that.
What I disagree with is "limiting". As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't even HAVE a perk system. Fly what you want to fly. I'll react accordingly in the plane I am flying.
I see no need to limit the "Big 5". I fly them now and again, but mostly I'm in the older, "lesser" planes. Yeah, I even fly the P-40B now and again.
But Spits don't terrify me and I like killing them as much as killing anything else. If a Spit jumps me while in a P-40B, I'll probably get killed. But that doesn't send me into depression, especially if I give him a good fight.
I simply don't understand the need for other people to try and dictate what another paying customer chooses to fly. It's as simple as minding your own knitting.
And, as I pointed out, there are other AH arenas going nightly where you won't see the Big 5 at ALL. So, if that's what you so desire, why don't you take advantage of those?
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just remember guys....Spits don't kill people, people kill people.
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(Cue inspiring background music)
Guess poor Toady Woady throws a fit when someone talks about perking late war easymode rides, but it's alright for him to bash other's rides that they PAY for in perks, i.e. they arent given to em for free time and time again to go HO the next red thing in sight.. What's so hard to understand the "earned" part of it?
For a slightly exaggerated example, you can't really call everyone that you see ina 262 a no-skill later war easy-moder, because you know that they earned thier 200 perks for it, and if someone flies thier chog, f4u4, spit14 or whatever consistantly, you can be pretty certain they earn all of them perks on a regular basis...
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Originally posted by Shane
better to ask this beet1e, when was the last time you flew an early/mid-war plane? your personal "big 5" are all '44+ planes. and actually it's the tiffy, not the yak9u that rounds out the big 5.
Not a fair question, Shane, as Aces High is geared towards late war planes. For example, if you want to fly a P38, there's no F or J variant; you have to fly the late war L variant. And as I have said repeatedly, one needs to fly a plane that can survive against a Big Five plane when you encounter one. But since you ask, I have been flying the Bf109F4 quite a bit beginning tour 43. I did OK (I think - 30/4) and that's a plane from 1940. Also the 190A5 (1942? AH doesn't give dates for all planes) and 109G2. the point i'm making beet1e is that even slightly perking the 5 won't reduce their nbrs and provide the diversity you're hoping for, especially by people who already have enough perkies to fly them ad infinitum.
I agree that if perking one type of plane (F4U-1C you tell me), the folks who want a free ride will find another one. what you basically want is a vast pool of noobs tooling around in planes inferior to the one you can afford to club them over the head with. that and the ability to run home with your precious mad skillz killz without having to worry about being chased down and spanked by someone who probably has one clue less than yourself.
If that statement had a grain of truth to it, I'd fly the Big Five myself. But that's your department! I see that you get most of your kills in P51/LA7. Spit ix is also one of your favourite rides too! Well, that does at least explain why you got the arse about my remarks in this thread. Who would have thought it! Mr. SuperAce flies easymode planes! :lol
Now, I have addressed your comments, and answered your question - despite the fact that I asked you first. Perhaps NOW you would like to enlighten the assembled company still further with your knowledge. Question for Shane: When did Beet1e last fly a P51/LA7/Spit ix/N1K/TYPH? Just answer that, Mr. Shane, and then we'll talk again.
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Originally posted by Toad
However, for a person that continually rails against "easymode" planes, flying it [the F4U-1C] is pretty humorous in a hypocritical sort of way. I think that's what Shane's pointing out.
I would have thought it was popular because of its very powerful guns, but not because it's easy to fly, because it isn't. It rolls well, but doesn't turn very well and is thus disqualified as a dweeb ride of choice.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I would have thought it was popular because of its very powerful guns, but not because it's easy to fly, because it isn't. It rolls well, but doesn't turn very well and is thus disqualified as a dweeb ride of choice.
Amazing guns, virtually unparalleled ground attack capabilities, the ability to take off from normal bases as well as carriers, nice medium to high speed handling, a great roll rate, 800 rounds of 20mm ammo, tough as nails, and it's relatively faster than "dweeb rides of choice" that turn better.
The F4U-1C is the most well-rounded plane in the game, bar none. To pretend otherwise is to delude yourself.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Amazing guns, virtually unparalleled ground attack capabilities, the ability to take off from normal bases as well as carriers, nice medium to high speed handling, a great roll rate, 800 rounds of 20mm ammo, tough as nails, and it's relatively faster than "dweeb rides of choice" that turn better.
The F4U-1C is the most well-rounded plane in the game, bar none. To pretend otherwise is to delude yourself.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I agree, DMF. I love my CHog. The reasons you give are all the reasons I fly it. :) I pay for it, and it's worth the expense. If it's as good a plane as you and I know it to be, why don't more people earn the PP to fly it? Could it be that it was deserted by the pork-n-auger masses?
All I said was that it's not an easy one to fly, where "easy" is a relative term. The noobs/HO dweebs like planes that can turn well so they can force their HO shots. I don't think the CHog would be good at that - not that I've ever tried.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I agree, DMF. I love my CHog. The reasons you give are all the reasons I fly it. :) I pay for it, and it's worth the expense. If it's as good a plane as you and I know it to be, why don't more people earn the PP to fly it? Could it be that it was deserted by the pork-n-auger masses?
[/B]
Once you attribute perk points to something, even if just a handful like with the F4U-1C, people begin to fly it differently. Survival and preservation of the perk points spent tend to take over. That and you must consider that the sorts of people who pork and auger routinely probably don't rack up perk points very quickly anyway.
All I said was that it's not an easy one to fly, where "easy" is a relative term. The noobs/HO dweebs like planes that can turn well so they can force their HO shots. I don't think the CHog would be good at that - not that I've ever tried.
Back in the day, the CHog was the absolute best HO plane in the game for obvious reasons. Torque was the master of whipping the plane around using its excellent instant turn in order to force an unavoidable HO. With 800 rounds of 20mm, you can just kick the rudders and twist the stick in a circle to create a nice spray of death in a cone spanning 30 degrees out from the nose in any direction.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The C-hog is easy to kill with. I believe that's the basic point.
Which is essentially the same point made about the Big 5's popularity.
So rail all you like about Spit's and the other four; you're essentially flying the same class airplane.
Now go out and rack up lots of kills in the F4U-1. That'd be quite different.
After all, you want diversity and a challenge, right?
Oh...no... guess you don't. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Toad
The C-hog is easy to kill with. I believe that's the basic point.
Which is essentially the same point made about the Big 5's popularity.
So rail all you like about Spit's and the other four; you're essentially flying the same class airplane.
Now go out and rack up lots of kills in the F4U-1. That'd be quite different.
After all, you want diversity and a challenge, right?
Oh...no... guess you don't. Sorry.
Toad-
The difference between you and beetle is the fact that he's buying his ride.
(I've not looked up his stats...just going on what Shane posted here)
So you both fly advanced planes, but he has no problem shelling out the perks to fly his, where as you appear to be one of the most ardent opponents of perking the big 5. Meanwhile, according to this thread, your planes of choice are 3 of the big 5...also according to this thread.
It would seem you are the most ardent opponent of perking the big 5 because you have an agenda, and are not simply the aircraft freedom fighter you portend to be.
But you say you have thousands of perks so much so that you can up 262's at a capped field.... so a perk to the big 5 wont hurt you..
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Oooooo looking up stats is both fun AND enlightening...
Shane's career...
Top 4 planes..
L-Gay-7....4739 kills...a 3.5 to 1 kill ratio
Runstang....2920 kills a 2.01
Spit V....1276 kills 2.61 KD
Spit 9....1009 kills...2.67 kills
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=shane&sortby=kdratio_sort
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The point is he's flying a ride just as dweeby but it's OK because it costs a few perks?
:lol
I fly advanced planes? Really? Do me a favor and check my stats for the last few or ten tours and tell me what I fly the most. I think you'll be surprised. I flew the -51 a lot when Rude mandated us as a -51 squad. Since then? You be the judge but I think you'll find your preconceptions are erroneous.
Here's my agenda:
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game.
That's been my agenda for about 3 years now.
Perking the "Big 5" wouldn't hurt me a lick. OTOH, it would hurt guys that don't fly much and thus don't have time to earn perks or that aren't real good at earning perks.
As I said, Oboe's ENY solution is far simpler, far more equitable to all players, preserves freedom of choice, forces no one at all and offers a "carrot" rather than a "stick" approach to solving your serious "diversity" problem.
How come I'm not seeing you and Beet and K and all the rest jump with joy and voiciferously support this elegant solution?
Englighten me.
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DMF - thanks for your remarks. I agree again, perking makes people fly more carefully, and want to RTB. That's why I have been in favour of a few PP on certain rides. But perhaps it would be like squeezing a long balloon - the air would just go up the other end to form a bulge at a different place...
But Oboe's idea might work - I'm glad we have quite a bit of agreement on that! :):) Anything to break the Big 5 monotony is worth consideration...
Originally posted by Toad
The C-hog is easy to kill with. I believe that's the basic point.
Which is essentially the same point made about the Big 5's popularity.
Erm... no. If the Chog were easy to kill with it would have to be easy to fly. And if it were both easy to fly and easy to kill with, even noobs would be able to rack up the necessary PP to fly them with consummate ease. It isn't happening. As a Rook, the PP cost is frequently down to 6pp. The nominal value is, I believe, 13pp. That's not that much. Take off from a CV and kill 4 PT boats - that'll net you 12pp.
"Now go out and rack up lots of kills in the F4U-1. That'd be quite different." Sir! Yes, sir! I see things are back to normal! Mr. Toad is telling me what to fly, and how to fly it! OK, I will.
Hey Muckmaw, thanks for the belly laugh about Shane's stats. :lol I believe the correct BBS protocol is to claim to have been drinking a cup of coffee at the time. Oddly enough, I was!
Now here's one for you, MuckMAW - I just checked old Toady's stats, and several easymode planes are in his list - lol. In tour 44 at #3 we have the P51D (11 kills) and at #5 we have the LA7 (3 kills)...But get this, after all the railing in his last post, guess what his #4 plane was? Clue: Amazing guns, virtually unparalleled ground attack capabilities, the ability to take off from normal bases as well as carriers, nice medium to high speed handling, a great roll rate, 800 rounds of 20mm ammo, tough as nails, and it's relatively faster than "dweeb rides of choice" that turn better. The is the most well-rounded plane in the game, bar none. To pretend otherwise is to delude yourself.
:rofl
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Oooooo looking up stats is both fun AND enlightening...
Shane's career...
Top 4 planes..
L-Gay-7....4739 kills...a 3.5 to 1 kill ratio
Runstang....2920 kills a 2.01
Spit V....1276 kills 2.61 KD
Spit 9....1009 kills...2.67 kills
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=shane&sortby=kdratio_sort
quite so... now check each and every CT tour and see what *else* i've flown.
:D
you see... i find diversity.
you guys just whine about it.
plus i think you're pushing the perk angle to cover up for your general suckiness.
and beet1e.... "flying more carefully"... so now you want to dictate both what and how people fly. cool. the ultimate cover of suckage.
:rofl
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Toad-
Here's the long and short of my argument...and I will add that you are an excellent debator. (I prefer to debate w/you in the O'club when we're on the same side...but...)
I don't care what anyone else flies until they appear outside my canopy.
Its not a matter of wanting to club baby seals. Its simplya matter of wanting to oppose different airplanes. To encounter something new.
I'm just tired of fighting the same 5 airplanes. Thats all.
AS for the ENY idea...do you really think it would work? I don't even know what ENY really does, because I never paid attention to it. If there's really no use for perks now, and long time players like yourself can attest to that, what incentive will it be to earn more perks?
BTW, I think I have 100 Fighter perks at the moment. You can perk every plane in AH and I'd still support the idea. I like earning my weapons. Thats just the way I like my gaming. So you'll have to forgive me wanting AH the way I like to game, because I am no different from you or anyone else. I want the game the way I like it.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I'm just tired of fighting the same 5 airplanes. Thats all.
you mean losing to them?
interesting when you check innom's page for k/d against and k/d in. love that page at times.
but the stat i find most amusing in beet1e's case is his general k/t... what's more easymode and not requiring attention than alting, cruising around swooping down for a cherry pick or 3 then running back to base?
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Originally posted by Shane
plus i think you're pushing the perk angle to cover up for your general suckiness.
:rofl
Well geez Shane, I could never be as great as you unless I quit my job, ignored my family, and dropped every other obligation I have so I could dedicate all the hours you do TO A VIDEO GAME!
Must look great on a resume, ace.
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Originally posted by Shane
you mean losing to them?
No, actually I don't. But thanks for the psychological profile, ace.
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The C-hog is EASY to kill with. I flew it a lot in the early days of AH. It had the ability to end the fight with one quick snapshot and that's a huge plus. Hard to fly? You must be joking. Fly it in the B&Z mode and it's incredibly easy to rack up kills. I think back then I had my highest average kills per sortie. But it got old.
Now, do extended turnfights with it and you'll enjoy less success. I suspect, after watching your style, that's not a problem for you.
"Now go out and rack up lots of kills in the F4U-1. That'd be quite different.
:lol I guess for you I should have put "If you're trying to impress with your leet skillz, now go out..."
As I've said a million times, I don't give a fig what anyone else flies. But I'm not suprised you have to dodge the issue at hand in some way.
Racking up kills in an C model hog isn't any different in difficulty from doing so in much of the Big 5 that traumatize your AH experience. To pretend it is, is simply ludicrous. In fact, the C shares a lot of fighting style characteristics with the -51, except the guns are incredibly more powerful and thus it's even EASIER than a -51 to quickly end a fight.
You want to strut your manly macho-ness? Fly the F4U-1 and rack up a bunch of kills. THEN I might be somewhat impressed. But impressed by C-hog kills? :rofl But indeed, fly what you like.. even if it's an easymode C model; after all, you PAID to fly easymode, so THAT'S different.
:rofl :rofl
Tour 44? Why not tell the entire story?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065716762.jpg)
Didn't fly much that tour do to real life.. and boring maps.
Tried out some kinda new stuff for me.. HurriIIc and old easy mode friends like the C model hog. Wow; about a 3/1 K/D in the C and I'm a low alt furballer. Gotta be easymode if I can do that. -51? Still use it whenever the fuel is 25% and, on a big map, if fuel is 50%. Hey... lack of fuel leaves me essentially no choice since I'm not a "think I'll take off two bases back and climb for 20 minutes" guy. I never will be. So, I just take a -51 from the front line and furball it low.
Tour 43? Still not much flying.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065716700.jpg)
Tour 42? did some flying that tour. This is the one I gave away ~2500 perkies in. ;)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065716920.jpg)
Tour 41 you say? Moderate amount of flying for me. Oh.. geez.. dweeb/Big 5 ride had the most kills there, for sure.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065717087.jpg)
Tour 40? Moderate flying.. flew that dweeby Corsair a bunch.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065717087.jpg)
Like I said, perking the Big 5 won't bother me a lick, other than it's another attempt to force people to play your way.
I've got thousands of perks and for the most part I use the Big 5 only when there's a good reason not to take more interesting (to me) aircraft. Like not enough fuel to enjoy a good fight.
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if you say so, "major"
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I don't care what anyone else flies until they appear outside my canopy.
Why should you care then? It's just another target. Let him pick what he wants to die in. ;)
To encounter something new.
Try the CT, the Snapshots and the Scenarios. Why should YOUR desires have anything to do with what other people clearly DON'T want to do in the MA? They're voting in the hangar. As Shane pointed out, I also find plenty of diversity in the CT.. especially when it's night in the MA, or the fuel's totally porked on the front lines. See.. here's the idea... there's other stuff available; use it.
AS for the ENY idea...do you really think it would work?
Heck if I know. But I'd sure favor using a CARROT rather than a STICK if I was trying to change something. Oboe preserves choice; always good. K's idea and the rest restrict choice. Always bad, IMO.
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Originally posted by Shane
they say how one plays a game reflects how one plays at life. so you're kind of admitting that you suck in real life, too?
why does this not surprise me?
i guess drex and levi and wldthing as well as a few MAW are also losers in life according to what you just said, huh? gee you're splashing all sorts of people with that broad brush.
Oh, way to call in air support, big guy. hehe..make it look like I'm insulting everyone who devotes alot of time to the game. Oh, and try to get my own squadmembers to come out against me.
Yeah, I suck in life. That's it. You nailed it pal. I'm actually homeless. I've got a computer powered by a hamster wheel in my cardboard box.
I guess you're just better at juggling responsibilites better than I am. You're simply greast at everything you touch because your an ace in a video game. wow.
You know the difference between you and people I respect...they don't have constant delusions of grandeur.
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actually i thought that wasn't fair to club you like a seal with that - guess i hadn't deleted it fast enough.
but yeah it's a pretty weak ad hominum argument you made, one that casts all sorts of negative dispersions on more than quite a few people some of whom also suck at this game.
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Oh yeah.. in case you're wondering
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1065717972.jpg)
OH yeah, note one other thing.... This type stat doesn't take into account how long it takes to get kills in one plane type versus another.
In short, it's hard to rack 'em up fast in an F4U-1 compared to something like an La-7. So, kills in the "lesser" planes may (probably) reflect more actual stick time per kill.
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Toad-
A few problems with your suggestions..
1) ToD and Snapshots are not always at the most opportune time. I cannot always fly at 11pm on a friday night or 3pm on a saturday afternoon, etc. Life gets in the way, as I'm sure we all know.
2) CT, though good, has it drawbacks as well. Here we usually have small numbers, and you end up fighting the same people over and over again. Plane diversity, yes, pilot diversity no. But the main problem with the CT is the fact that it's not the MA. Much like furballers like yourself Lament about moving to the DA, people like me have an affinity for the MA. So much as moving to another arena is not a solution for you, the same applies for me.
3) I'm willing to try anything to spark something new. Hence the fact that my sorties are now in p-40E's and Ki-61.
What did you call the Ki-61 in the MA last night, Shane..oh yeah, a chew toy.
Maybe I could be better if you gave some good advice instead of wise arnold answers when asked about a plane, huh?
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh yeah.. in case you're wondering
OH yeah, note one other thing.... This type stat doesn't take into account how long it takes to get kills in one plane type versus another.
In short, it's hard to rack 'em up fast in an F4U-1 compared to something like an La-7. So, kills in the "lesser" planes may (probably) reflect more actual stick time per kill.
Thats a very good point, Toad.
You can spend 10 hours in an FM2 chasing airplanes around because of the lack of speed.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
What did you call the Ki-61 in the MA last night, Shane..oh yeah, a chew toy.
Maybe I could be better if you gave some good advice instead of wise arnold answers when asked about a plane, huh?
i only give advice when i know it won't be wasted.
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
i only give advice when i know it won't be wasted.
:D
Not only are you a video game god, you're clairvoyant.
So as not to hijeck the thread with a pissing contest, let's just agree that you're an AH god and I'm a "Slobber Donkey.
Can we go back to the topic now?
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This thread has turned into one big catfight!
Did you guys miss the quiet part of the thread where both sides found some middle ground? A proposed solution which stands a chance to increase diversity in the MA while not "limiting" any player's choice of rides?
It may not work as well or as quickly as perking, but the main thing is it is something BOTH sides can live with. I might add it probably requires simple data file of table changes and a server reboot and voila! I have no proof of that though.
Who has the biggest pull with HTC? Who can ask for this nicely?
Who owns some expensive Scotch they'd be willing to part with for the good of the community?
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Does scotch get better with age?
I've got some stuff from the 70's in my basement.
Anyway, the idea has merit, but I wonder how much it will affect the arena considering many don't even know how perks are calculated and we also have the perk multiplier in effect.
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IN before lock :p
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Can we go back to the topic now?
sure.
you say you're a creature of habit (tied to MA, won't try CT) who doesn't want to change that habit.
yet... you're trying to force change upon other creatures of habit.
see the irony?
-
< fanfare > < the Queen’s corgis straining at the leash>
"and beet1e.... "flying more carefully"... so now you want to dictate both what and how people fly. cool. the ultimate cover of suckage."
I waited in all afternoon, chewed my nails down to the first knuckle for that? Shane, I said it would be good to encourage people to RTB – ie discourage the suiciding. Of course, I can see that you think that dying is much more cool. :rolleyes: And then... "but the stat i find most amusing in beet1e's case is his general k/t... what's more easymode and not requiring attention than alting, cruising around swooping down for a cherry pick or 3 then running back to base?"
And the film to substantiate this would be... where did you say?
Mr. Toad! Muhahahahahaha!!! Awww, poor Toad. I’m sorry, Dude. I pushed you too far that time. I can always tell, when the walls start being built, and the red ink comes out. :D You were typing so hard you dropped a left bracket off one of your IMG links.
I still don’t understand. If it’s easy to get kills in the F4U-1C, why don’t more people do it? It’s easy to get a 9-kill sortie in a CHog (I’ve done it, so it must be easy) and that would earn plenty of PP. Normally the CHog is the only perk plane I fly, and my PP balance shows a net increase from day to day.
Still, I have complied with your orders, and have been flying the F4U-1. First mistake was not learning the fuel system. In addition to the MAIN tank, I didn’t realise I had those wing tanks, so was flying around with much more fuel than needed. I got 7 kills and 4 deaths. The deaths were against a P51, a F6F, a TYPH, and a Spit – ie three in the Big 5, so what with trying to figure the plane out etc., I wasn’t too disappointed. Got a few bombers etc...
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/ahss75a.jpg)
As with all Corsairs, I find the deflection shooting capability to be amongst the best in the game. Short .AHF film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/f4u1vf4u.ahf)
So I will continue to comply with your instructions to fly the birdcage and se how I do. ;)
MuckMAW - if Mr. Toad knows you've got 30 year old Scotch, he'll be over on the next flight!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Shane, I said it would be good to encourage people to RTB – ie discourage the suiciding. Of course, I can see that you think that dying is much more cool. :rolleyes:
discourage what suiciding? jabocides? perk the ord.
i don't know why you'd want people to emulate your style of gameplay. i mean take a good look at it - can we say "yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnn?"
but hey, that's *your* choice. peter principle and all that.
btw, don't you think maps with closer bases, i.e. a map like festerMA, encourages rtb because of their proximity?
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Originally posted by Shane
discourage what suiciding? jabocides? perk the ord.
i don't know why you'd want people to emulate your style of gameplay. i mean take a good look at it - can we say "yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnn?"
but hey, that's *your* choice. peter principle and all that.
btw, don't you think maps with closer bases, i.e. a map like festerMA, encourages rtb because of their proximity?
Blah blah, nothing new here.
Shane, you are the weakest link. G'bye.
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Originally posted by Shane
sure.
you say you're a creature of habit (tied to MA, won't try CT) who doesn't want to change that habit.
yet... you're trying to force change upon other creatures of habit.
see the irony?
When did I ever say I would not try the CT?
Fact is, I flew 2 hours last tour in the CT. Check the stats, Ace. I know you've got that down to a science...oh wait...unless it does not support your argument.
I know 2 hours a tour may not sound like much to you, but I only do 30 hours of gaming a month on average.
-
BTW, I'm going to fly thr C-Hog tonight until I run outta perks...should be about 2 sorties...hehe..
I'll then revert back to the Ki-61 or I was thinking of trying the P-47.
I could still use some advice on how the Ki-61 should be flown.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
When did I ever say I would not try the CT?
2) CT, though good, has it drawbacks as well. Here we usually have small numbers, and you end up fighting the same people over and over again.
Plane diversity, yes, pilot diversity no.
But the main problem with the CT is the fact that it's not the MA. Much like furballers like yourself Lament about moving to the DA,
people like me have an affinity for the MA.
So much as moving to another arena is not a solution for you, the same applies for me.
try not to take me so literally, major, you end up missing the point being made.
you do, however, need to make up your conflicted mind.
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In true Rage3d fashion:
This thread is now about SHARKS!!
(http://www.soemadison.wisc.edu/ccbc/images2/sharks.jpg)
(http://www.icit.demon.co.uk/photo_library/hammerhead%20sharks.jpg)
(http://www.machacacharters.com/sharks.gif)
(http://plaidworks.com/sharks/pics/great-white.gif)
(http://www.mbari.org/seminars/2002/fall2002/oct28_1.jpg)
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1005000/images/_1009053_pointer300.jpg)
(http://drugsbite.com/pages/index.5.jpg)
(http://www.seas-expo.com/PhotoContestWinners/images/great%20white%20shark.jpg)
(http://209.133.64.45/fishes/fishes_l/FI0225_2l.jpg)
(http://www.brunsonimages.com/gallery/Great_White_Sharks/GWSharks_Dual.jpg)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I could still use some advice on how the Ki-61 should be flown.
I find that it flies very much like an F6F and turns/scissors very closely with an F6F. Naturally some things differ; it's slower to accelerate and climb, but it dives very nicely. It's not as durable, but it packs a mean punch with its guns.
A Ki-61 with a little bit of alt/E on any non-perked plane in the game poses a serious threat.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Shane
try not to take me so literally, major, you end up missing the point being made.
you do, however, need to make up your conflicted mind.
Shane,
Your grasping at straws here. You've said I won't try CT, but when I demonstrate that I have, you say I'm conflicted because I find there are flaws with flying CT solely.
Unless you have something of substance to bring to this debate, I'm done with you. Have a great day!
DMF-
Are you telling me the 61 accelerates more slowely than the F6F or its just slower in general?
I was under the impression that this plane was a pure turn fighter. I did not know it was a E-Fighter.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Are you telling me the 61 accelerates more slowely than the F6F or its just slower in general?
[/B]
It accelerates marginally more slowly than the F6F at just about all altitudes. As far as speed goes, the Ki-61 goes roughly the same speed as the F6F (slightly slower under 5k without WEP; slightly faster from 5-15k without WEP; virtually indistinguishable between 5-15k with either one using WEP). The Ki-61 does not climb well however. It climbs as well with WEP as the F6F does without it.
It bleeds E well in turns, allowing for snapshot opportunities. If you connect with those guns, you'll cause some harm.
I was under the impression that this plane was a pure turn fighter. I did not know it was a E-Fighter.
I consider it a pretty well-rounded if not underrated fighter. I've dueled NathBDP F6F vs. Ki-61 (we switched who flew what each round), and the duels came out even. Neither seemed particularly better than the other in a scissoring fight.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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the horror!!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1065729028.jpg)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It accelerates marginally more slowly than the F6F at just about all altitudes. As far as speed goes, the Ki-61 goes roughly the same speed as the F6F (slightly slower under 5k without WEP; slightly faster from 5-15k without WEP; virtually indistinguishable between 5-15k with either one using WEP). The Ki-61 does not climb well however. It climbs as well with WEP as the F6F does without it.
It bleeds E well in turns, allowing for snapshot opportunities. If you connect with those guns, you'll cause some harm.
I consider it a pretty well-rounded if not underrated fighter. I've dueled NathBDP F6F vs. Ki-61 (we switched who flew what each round), and the duels came out even. Neither seemed particularly better than the other in a scissoring fight.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
So aside from the cannon, the only real difference between the 2 planes is the paint job, huh.
Well, that comforting. I'll fly it like an F6F which I'm well accustomed too.
So far, I've had more success with the P-40e than the ki61 but I've only flown a few sorties.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So aside from the cannon, the only real difference between the 2 planes is the paint job, huh.
There are subtle differences that distinguish the two planes. The F6F has very nice high speed handling and rolls better fast. The Ki-61 rolls better when slow. Both have different levels of flaps responsiveness. Both perform a bit differently in the vertical and at very slow speeds. Etc. etc.
Think of the difference more like the differences between the N1K and the Spit IX. They certainly handle differently and feel different, but they're also very similar overall. And if the N1K is the Japanese Spit IX, then the Ki-61 is the Japanese F6F (minus the carrier takeoff alas).
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I experimented with the red to see if it was faster than snipping quotes in and out. Isn't. Fixed the image. Should have clipped those first ones but I was in a hurry.
Here, let me help you with this simple concept. It's TOO easy to get kills in the C model for some and thus they don't find it too interesting or habit forming. Me for one.
I hadn't really done much with it in a long time and jumping back in took just a little adjustement. I didn't fly it long because it just isn't real challenging if you're willing to stick to B&Z and if you can shoot halfway decently. Ran out of gas long before the ammo. I'm not a B&Z guy, so I just found it boring; executions rather than fights.
If you still find it a challenge.. well, good for you.
I think you'll find you get a lot of assists with the -1, especially if you mix it up down in the mud, the blood and the beer. I suppose though, you'll carefully B&Z in it. I can't really comment on how that'll be because I don't do that.
If you do mix it up, you'll find you have to win, because a whole lot of stuff can run you down from behind. And you sure won't outclimb many. The only way you get out of most fights is to kill the other guy. A charming feature, IMO.
Still, after a short while, when you go back to the C, you'll probably think.. "man.. this is so EEEEEEE ZEEEEE.
But you'll probably remain in self-denial that your just one of the "EZ mode guys" you seem to despise.
Oh.. wait... you pay perks to fly EZ mode, so it's OK then.
:rofl
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Originally posted by oboe
Who can ask for this nicely?
Pick up the phone and call Pyro. After AH2 debuts I think.
You need someone that really cares to make the case.. that'd be you.
I think though, it's the best solution put forward so far. Simply because it doesn't try to force someone else's opinion on a paying player. It makes flying "lesser" planes more attractive (I guess.. you have to want perks ) but it makes that a personal choice.
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Muhaha Mr. Toad!
Glad everything is OK. :D
And now, back to the MA to learn that F4U-1 - I note your advice, tnx...
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Tigers and Mako's are pretty cool, but nothing beats a Great White.
It would be cool if there were a larger variety of sharks, though.
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Originally posted by Furious
Tigers and Mako's are pretty cool, but nothing beats a Great White.
It would be cool if there were a larger variety of sharks, though.
but them whale sharks are overmodeled and ruin it for all the little plankton.
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This is the greatest flame thread ever... not locked.
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While it is true that a Whale Shark is huge, it is also very slow and not very maneuverable. Easy pickens.
What bothers me about the uber White Sharks is that sometimes when there is a nice feeding frenzy going on, with all the Blues spinning around in little circles, the Nurse sharks feeding off the bottom and the Mako's zooming in and out, generally all having a great time, a Great White will come along and scare all the little fishes away. Bastards.
I wish there were'nt so many Great Whites.
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Perk the Great White! No, don't because according to some of the lesser minds here perking doesnt make a difference about anything while at the same time they limit usage.
I think i should say it now.
Toad Is A Hypocrit.