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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on October 08, 2003, 02:31:02 PM

Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: JBA on October 08, 2003, 02:31:02 PM
45% of US thinks media is to liberal
14% say to conservative

128 million people can't be wrong.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031008.asp
Title: Re: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Dead Man Flying on October 08, 2003, 02:36:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JBA
128 million people can't be wrong.


Wanna bet?

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: miko2d on October 08, 2003, 02:53:10 PM
JBA: 128 million people can't be wrong.

 There could hardly be a more liberal kind of statement that this. It's a liberal doctrine in a nutshell.

 miko
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: AKIron on October 08, 2003, 02:57:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
JBA: 128 million people can't be wrong.

 There could hardly be a more liberal kind of statement that this. It's a liberal doctrine in a nutshell.

 miko


I think you may be prone to too much extrapolation miko.

Not always but when most people believe something it's often true. In this case, the 128 million weren't stating fact but rather their opinion.
Title: Re: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: gofaster on October 08, 2003, 03:12:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JBA
45% of US thinks media is to liberal
14% say to conservative

128 million people can't be wrong.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031008.asp


(http://drbeetle.homestead.com/files/LEMMlube.jpg)
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: miko2d on October 08, 2003, 03:20:34 PM
AKIron: I think you may be prone to too much extrapolation miko.
 Not always but when most people believe something it's often true. In this case, the 128 million weren't stating fact but rather their opinion.


 Here are the levels of information ranked by their degree of confidence:

1. A person posting as JBA says (maybe even thinks) that  "128 million people of US thinks media is to liberal". That's a fact.
 
2. "128 million people of US say they think media is to liberal". That is very likely - I doub JBA made that up. I've not asked those people and doubt anyone actually asked all but likely extrapolated from a smaller sample. Nobody asked me or my wife. But I would generally agree with the truth of that statement.

3. "128 million people of US think media is to liberal". Probably. The people in the sample could have lied about what they were thinking. But I doubt it.

 So I do not have any problem with that opinion and actually believe myself that the US media is mostly liberal-socialist and about 99% socialist if you count in the righ-wing socialists.

 What I have problem with is the statement like "128 million people can't be wrong." or "(Overwhelming) Majority can't be wrong" or "when most people believe something it's often true".

 It is patently groundless as a general kind of statement. Those people may be right in this particular case but there is nothing in any theory that would make majority correct and historical experience shows that majority is usually wrong.

 Truth is not determined by voting. Claim otherwise is the main basis for collectivism, socialism, liberalism, etc. That's all I wanted to say.

 miko
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: AKIron on October 08, 2003, 03:33:57 PM
We are talking about a poll asking if people thought the media were too liberal or conservative. The question is by nature asking for an opinion and is not an attempt to determine truth as this truth is relative to what people believe. Therefore in this case, what the majority of people believe constitute the truth and in fact "can't be wrong".
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: midnight Target on October 08, 2003, 04:38:29 PM
Just proves that the conservative media did their job well.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: AKIron on October 08, 2003, 04:40:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Just proves that the conservative media did their job well.


Or the liberal media not well enough.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: midnight Target on October 08, 2003, 04:48:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Or the liberal media not well enough.


Or that only those with IQ's above a certain range recognized the truth... huh miko?

:cool:
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Rude on October 08, 2003, 04:50:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Just proves that the conservative media did their job well.


lol
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Sandman on October 08, 2003, 05:44:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Truth is not determined by voting. Claim otherwise is the main basis for collectivism, socialism, liberalism, etc. That's all I wanted to say.

 miko



...and yet the argument breaks down when the religious right attempts to legislate some form of christian belief with reasoning that the majority of americans are christian.


The notion of "if we all agree we must be right" doesn't simply apply to the left.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Holden McGroin on October 08, 2003, 06:24:04 PM
As each and every one of us is a middle of the road moderate, only making our decisions based on pure logic, anybody to the left is too liberal, and anybody to the right is too conservative.

Political persuasion of others is based on our perception.  

The perception of a strong plurality is that the media leans left, therefore it is true.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: AKIron on October 08, 2003, 06:27:37 PM
Well, we are a Republic, a nation based on laws and not mass rule. Still, if most people believe the media is not being objective a new media will replace it. One that can be trusted by the majority, not the minority. The media isn't funded by the government afterall.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Sixpence on October 08, 2003, 06:36:45 PM
I blame Clinton
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: miko2d on October 09, 2003, 11:07:17 AM
Sandman_SBM: ...and yet the argument breaks down when the religious right attempts to legislate some form of christian belief with reasoning that the majority of americans are christian.

 I do not see you making any sense here - the "argument breaks down" part. What does it have to do with anything I said - here or elsewhere? What breaks down?

 Our legal system is not based on truth but on force. The voting just makes it unnecessary for the majority to get off their fat tulips and exert physical effort in oppressing the minority. And unlike physical oppression, the minority is forced to foot the bill for it's own oppression.

 The left does that, the right does that.

 The discussion we had here did not concern enacting a legislation but whether voting is a valid way to ascertain objective thuth.

 miko
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Boroda on October 09, 2003, 11:14:57 AM
Public opinion polls have one and only purpose: manipulating public opinion.
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: AKIron on October 09, 2003, 11:24:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Public opinion polls have one and only purpose: manipulating public opinion.


Not necessarily the only purpose. Sometimes their purpose is to spur into action the populace based on those polls. For example: the result of the poll in this thread might be to cause people to demand a change in the political leanings of the media. The opinions may not be changed at all but when people realize they share an opinion with the majority and that their views are not being represented they may then act to affect change.

If you'd said, "manipulating the public" I might agree. Am I splitting hairs here?
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Dead Man Flying on October 09, 2003, 11:34:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Public opinion polls have one and only purpose: manipulating public opinion.


False.

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: miko2d on October 09, 2003, 11:37:41 AM
You are both right.
 On one hand disclosing public opinion may urge or dissuade people into/from action without affecting their judgements.
 On the other hand, most people are herd animals. Once some opinion becomes popular, more people join it, then drop it just as readily.

 Just look at fasion.

 miko
Title: 128 million vs 40 million
Post by: Sandman on October 09, 2003, 11:25:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d


 The left does that, the right does that.

 miko



That was pretty much my point. We agree...