Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on October 08, 2003, 02:56:24 PM
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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
I was talking to a friend about this. I have never been in a union, and I just do no see what we need them for now. I really think they do more harm then good.
Unions where started to protect workers from the Evil back when they could be evil. Back when they could force workers to work in unsafe places for, unfair money. Basicaly abuse people.
Now the government offers many workers protections. Corps can not make you work in unsafe places or they get sued or the government stops them. They pay good money in most cases cause the person can go find work at another company ETC.
I see lots of harm unions can do though.
Example one: Teachers unions, how the hell did they ever get in place? They are basically government employees how where they ever abused? Ok now on to my example. The Fremont unified school district, I know of a teacher who missed over 90 days of work in his first 6 months, his only penalty? He had to pay the cost of the sub after so many days missed, but he made more then enough money to do this. Same teacher when he did show up, read the news paper all day or only worked half days. He was a spec ed teacher.
They can’t fire him cause of the union and his tenure.
To me it sounds like almost a protection scheme, they force union people to pay, yet they offer little protection anymore, the unions force a company to pay more, then the company turns around and sends the jobs to India or china?
Oh my dad paid into the carpenters union retirement for 25 years, the money was supposed to go to my mom when he died yet the *******s in the union have her jumping through hoops like you would not believe to collect. Like wanting both his and her birth certificates, there marriage certificate, hell they even asked for his, military discharge papers. They have denied my mom 2 times over something that clearly was not right by there own regulations books. We are lucky my cousin is a lawyer of my mom would be screwed out of the money.
Still am I wrong? Why do we still need them?
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It is not they we need them; it is that people have the right to form them if they want them. Texas is a Right to Work state, unlike many, which means that even if the jobsite is Unionized, you do not have to belong to work there. States where this is not so seem to be pushing the Socalist edge, though, and I think there are more of them than RTW states.
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But if you do not need the union why would you want to be in one lol the dues are like an extra tax.
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Unions have plusses and minuses that's for sure. But, when it comes to the "why we need them" you realy just have to look at the U.S. work environment prior to thier existance.
Sometimes unions get a bit carried away with themselves and kill companies. But, without them... there'd be many more instances of companies getting carried away with themselves and killing employees.
I'd like to see a bit more balance between the two.
MiniD
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What exactly is tenure and what is the rationale for it?
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The only thing worse than a union is NO union.
You think you don't need 'em?
Hah! Sudddenly remove all the Unions and Union Contracts and then see what Management of both (formerly) Union and non-Union companies does.
I assure, the "plight of the workingman" will get immediately and seriously worse.
It's Yin and Yang. At the extremes, both Mangement and Unions are nightmares. But you need both to strike the balance.
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mietla
Tenyear ? Maybe I am spelling it wrong? It what school teachers get after so many years. For Fremont unified school distrect, it means if you have your tenyear, you do not get fired for anything short of criminal action.
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You really think it would get worse? I have never been in a union, how do unions help me or anyone else in the technical industry?
Doesnt the government offer much of the protections that unions used to? I know they WERE needed back when there where no rules in place to protect the worker.
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Tenure. Not the correct term for unions, BTW. Unions operate on a first in/last out hiring/firing scheme, as opposed to hiring and firing on merit.
Tenure is given primarily to University Professors to assure them of freedom to express un-popular positions and studies, and be free from the worry of having to please anyone to retain their job.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
mietla
Tenyear ? Maybe I am spelling it wrong? It what school teachers get after so many years. For Fremont unified school distrect, it means if you have your tenyear, you do not get fired for anything short of criminal action.
yeah, I know how it works, but what is the rarionale behing?
Why don't Safeway clerks or software engineers have a tenure.
Seems like a very stupid and counter productive idea (although I can see that it attractive to those who get it).
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My old roommate's first real job out of college was working in the HR department of a manufacturing facility (which closed shortly after a 3 month strike). He was in management and was therefore not unionized but the rest of the plant was. He said it was a nightmare. Output was so low because they were unable to fire the worthless people.
He told me once about how he put a new jug of water on the water cooler because no one had replaced the empty one for more than a day. He got chewed out for doing this because a unionized employee had the job of replacing the water jugs and he was doing that person's job. This was viewed as being a threat to the unionized employee's employment.
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Whether or not you are presently in a Union, Unions and their work rules and safety standards, etc., have already affected you and your job.
Basically, Unions set the standards for this stuff. In my industry, pilot on-duty hours are a direct result of Union research, lobbying and efforts. And we considered it a "success" when we got the maximum limit to 15 hours on duty.
Now, in the clear bright sunshine when everything's working fine, 15 hours on duty will leave you plenty tired but capable. In the dark of night, in the middle of a thunderstorm with one engine shut down and a hydraulic problem... it'd be better if your crew was fresher than that.
Still, I can remember being on duty 18 hours in the early days.
That's what Unions do.
OTOH, Unions can be simply ridikuloose. I remember when they wanted to keep the Flight Engineer on the B-737. That's featherbedding pure and simple. NO ONE benefits by being intentionally inefficient. Far better to accept the new technology and help the company maximize profits and thus GROW, providing new useful jobs for those 737 S/O's.
But rest assured, Managment would/will push to the extreme if it will fatten their bonus check. On duty 55 hours? Where's the problem? They'll never see it, because they only see dollar signs.
Again, though, Unions will push to the other extreme.
In short, the job you have, the balance you have stems either directly or indirectly from the Unions.
If you think the government will cover your butt, just look at Fed duty rigs for Commuters versus Major airlines. The job of a Commuter pilot is, if anything, tougher than flying for a Major. But their rigs are MUCH worse. Why? They came late to the Union, too late.. and the Government da n sure didn't look out for them. Their rigs STILL suck and they've had Union help the last few years. They're getting better, but they have a long way to go.
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mietla
I agree, it sound pretty lame. LOL, I want that kind of protection in my job.
"we are going to lay you off"
"No you are not I just got tenure!!"
It's very lame that teachers once they reach a certian point in their career and just kick back and become untouchable.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Unions have plusses and minuses that's for sure. But, when it comes to the "why we need them" you realy just have to look at the U.S. work environment prior to thier existance.
Sometimes unions get a bit carried away with themselves and kill companies. But, without them... there'd be many more instances of companies getting carried away with themselves and killing employees.
I'd like to see a bit more balance between the two.
MiniD
Agree 100% with this assessment.
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Originally posted by Toad
Whether or not you are presently in a Union, Unions and their work rules and safety standards, etc., have already affected you and your job.
...and your wallet...
Wow, check those car prices... :rolleyes:
Seriously...the only union Ive been in was the Teamsters when I worked for UPS for 2 years. I found them useless. Yea, we got good benefits and pay...but my fondness for the union dropped as it became clear we were just cogs in a machine....and the only time we heard from them was when they told us how to vote and other such kooky things. The Union thinks we dont know whats best for us...we have no input on dues going up, and if we have an issue/formal complaint we need them to address...well...they still havent returned my calls.
Most places that have a union, deserve it.
Sorry, I used to think great things about unions, having them set the standard for what is now policed by OSHA and such. But I watched as a local union here all but killed a paper plant...they wouldnt take a hit in pay to let the company re organize, so down it went...then a new buyer came. Now there are some unemployed union guys since the new company doesnt have work for all of them
The list of examples goes on and on
People who like unions typically make great money...and who knows, perhaps even the union leaders listen to their membership and work as a team. My experience wasnt like that. I see Unions hurting more business than helping. I think much of what they claim to defend is duplicity with what OSHA now does.
But...enough from me...I'm sure I'll get flamed for what Ive posted :) (BTW, my American Airlines pilot friend went from not fond of Unions to loving them...amazing what $85 an hour can buy you in loyalty...and he insists airline fares are too low...it should be higher so he makes more! Putz)
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Any company with a Union probably deserves it.
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Originally posted by mietla
What exactly is tenure and what is the rationale for it?
From Merriam-Webster:
Tenure- a status granted after a trial period to a teacher that gives protection from summary dismissal.
In Minnesota, a beginning teacher in the public schools is called a probationary teacher. After successfully completing two years of service with the same school district, a third year teacher, when offered a contract by that district, shall be considered to be tenured. Tenure is designed to prevent teachers getting fired without due process. In other words, a school district can fire a probationary teacher without a good reason. Indeed, no reason need be given at all.
In order to fire a tenured teacher, however, a school district must follow a certain procedure, allowing the teacher to face his/her accusers, having a hearing before the school board, etc.
Contrary to what anti-unionists think or say, it is possible to fire a tenured teacher. But it is much more difficult than firing a probationary teacher.
Teachers need the protection of tenure, IMO, to keep them safe from the knee-jerk revenge tactics of disgruntled parents whose child earned a failing grade in class. As a beginning teacher, I taught in a small town where one of my teacher friends had a parent say to him "I'll have your job for this grade", after that parent's son recieved an "F" in a subject. Nothing ever became of the threat, but it is a realistic example of how a teacher could be coerced into passing a student who should fail a course.
On the other hand, tenure can be a double-edged sword. Since it is more difficult to fire a tenured teacher, it allows some bad teachers more time to wreck their students' lives. In the five years that I taught in the public schools, I worked with two teachers who I felt were dead weight and doing nobody any good. Tenure may have saved their jobs, which in this case was a bad thing.
Unions also provide legal defense for teachers who get accused of and/or sued for negligence or sexual abuse. When I was a teacher, my union provided up to a million dollars insurance for damages, if I recall correctly.
I've always had mixed feelings about tenure. Even when I was a teacher, I thought that nobody should be above being held accountable for their actions as a teacher. At the same time, however, I was glad to have tenure to protect me from the occasional irate parent of a failing student.
Tenure does not protect teachers from layoffs. In the case of layoffs for financial reasons, it goes by seniority. Newest teachers get axed first, etc.
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LePaul, you seem to think that if UAW workers still made 1968 wages you'd still be able to get a GTO for $4000.
Yah, right. Management isn't greedy. Look at the humble paychecks and bonuses they award themselves. :D Enron
Like I said... it's Yin and Yang. At the extremes, both suck.
Two truisms in this thread:
Any company that has a Union probably deserves it. (Also written as "Happy workers don't unionize"
and
The only thing worse than a Union is NO Union.
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Back when they could force workers to work in unsafe places for, unfair money. Basicaly abuse people.
and exactly when did that end? abuse still happens.
as far as wages go the main reason you can get a decent wage working non-union is that if they didn't pay it you would organize.
'right to work states'- what a load of crap they are. labor is the only bussiness where the state has outlawed exclusive contracts. in most states it's fairly simple, union workers work under a contract, unless there are provisions that are required by law someone at the company agreed to every one of those conditions in the contract. bargaining is give and take and if there is a clause in the contract that is bad for the company odds are they traded something for it that was bad for the employees.
every bussiness has exclusive contracts. most resteraunts have either a coke/pepsi contract, where they agree to only get beverages from that suplyer, why should labor be singled out, and contracts interfeered with.
dues as a tax- I supose you could look at it that way. but much like the dem/republican ecconomy, you choose would you pay a higher percentage of higher wages or have less tax on much less income. non-union guys in the same work I do work for $10-15 less(non union wage is $14-18 on average) for your average employee. those who have a wider range of skills make more money, I could make around $30 working non-union (roughly the same as I make union)
but it wouldn't include health insurance (about $4 per hour), most non-union construction companys require 90 days of employment for health ins, the common methode for non-supervison employees is to lay them off after 75-85 days then re-hir them after a couple weeks.
or pension payments ($5.50 per hour), non-union can count on the so-so security system
or anuity fund (another couple bucks per hour), if you are very lucky and work for a 'good non-union company' and get to asupervision position, (so you are employed more than 90 days), they will let you pay into a 401k, sometimes even matching part of your payment.
or money paid into aprenticeship training and journeyman upgrade (about 25-35 cents). this insures that new employees are adiquitly trained, before coming to the job. also anytime a guy feels he needs to upgrade his skills use of a training facility, all expenses and an instructor are provided at no charge. non-union works with whatever guy they found to do the job, often working in very dangerouse situations where maybe only 1 in 4 have ever done the work before. you can go to a colledge vo-tech and learn to weld , then go out on a non-union job as a journeyman welder. with no idea about safe work practices or the type os situational awareness required on a construction job.
that puts my total pay a bit over $42.00. thats about $10 more than non-unions top pay. out of that I pay about $1.50 in dues, well worth it in my mind.
those who say their union never did anything for them, when asked, invariabley admit they rarely if ever go to meetings or take any active part in the union. the union (as it's name implies) is workers united, bargaining together so that we have a more equal footing when negotiating our contracts. if you don't participate how is the union rep to know what is important to you. if your union seems out of control odds are your members aren't doing their job.
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Hey Toad
Sorry, I respectfully disagree.
I work for a good company that takes great interest in how we are doing and such. There are many large companys out there that do just fine without a Union.
As for those companies that are screwed management wise...you're right...some deserve Unions. LIke the AA disasters and such. Countless examples are out there of management making things awful.
And many of Unions growing to big for themselves and killing their income
As Mini said, there should be a middle ground somewhere. I've been on both sides.
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Another truism.... Unions can't get anything that management doesn't want to give. I've seen companies in my area unionize and wind up with workers making less than they were before. Workers are protected from the abuses of the past without union representation. Unions have become nothing more than a hedge against a bad economy.
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I think Toad and Mini-D have given very reasonable assessments on unions, and why they are still needed. Well said, guys.
BTW, don't be surprised to see some white collar unions pop up in the next few years. The big blue technical company that I work for have been steadily reducing benefits for it's employees over the years, and now there is an organized effort to form a white collar union of technology employees. I get mailings from them every month or so(I am not a member).
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Another truism.... Unions can't get anything that management doesn't want to give. I've seen companies in my area unionize and wind up with workers making less than they were before. Workers are protected from the abuses of the past without union representation. Unions have become nothing more than a hedge against a bad economy.
Well said
One of the rare times we had a Union Representative at our plant, he was trying to convince us who to vote for in the election. This not long after UPS settled on the details for a new contract. We befuddled the representative completely when he suggested we should vote for a liberal democrat on the state ballot.
I simply asked "Why would we want to give up our newly won hard wages on a party that has a history of taxing us to death?" I made a lot of friends, and enemies, that day :p
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Any company that has a Union probably deserves it.
I don't believe that for a minute.
Every job I've had, no matter how cushy has had people form a union... or at least try. It wouldn't bother me so much if there were issues with safety/long hours/low pay... but the unions offer other things that people like to see.
Unions offer pay by "experience" requirements... only defining experience as years worked. Most companies I've worked for offer performance based raises. This always pissed off the people that were at the bottom end of the performance curve. They'd constantly try to insist that promotions and raises should not be based on how well you do your job, but how long you've been doing it. Once you standardize this, you loose the ability to quantify performance on anything other than amount of time worked.
Anyways... I still think they are necessary to an extent... just to keep companies honest. But I also believe they are a refuge for people adept at hiding within the system that were long overdue for termination.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
But I also believe they are a refuge for people adept at hiding within the system that were long overdue for termination.
MiniD
AGREED!
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not all unions are created equally either, some are stronger than others. At its core, Unions are very american - power to the people - not that there havent beenexcesses in either direction
be happy that your grandfathers formed unions. they brought us
40 hour work week (although this is disappearing fast) (wekends off!)
minimum wage - which used to be a living wage too
safety in the workplace/OSHA
end of child labor
overtime pay
and lets face it, by and large a product made by a happy union worker is going to be superior to that made by a disgruntled employee or some malaysian working for pennies a day.
but how often do you see "made in the usa" anymore? Alot of former union jobs are moving to south america because of nafta and gatt (REAL reasons for impeachment lol), so I would say that the need for collective bargaining is not over yet.
UNION meant an american worker making an american product, and IMHO we need alot more of that
strk
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Actually, the Unions are the CAUSE of a lot of jobs lost. They require companies to waste money and manpower on stupid issues and outrageous rules.
Unions made this nation what it is today, but Nanny government has assumed their role, so they are useless.
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Originally posted by banana
Teachers need the protection of tenure, IMO, to keep them safe from the knee-jerk revenge tactics of disgruntled parents whose child earned a failing grade in class.
How is it different from a customer service tech needing a protection to keep them safe from the knee-jerk revenge tactics of disgruntled customers whose purchase has been damaged by their misuse of it?
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One thing I find interesting in this thread is the number of "Right Wingers" that are in favor of Unions. When you break down the purpose of a Union it clearly is a Leftist group. Looks like the Left is just fine, so long as it serves their purpose and lines their own pockets. Is that hypocrisy I smell??
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Or maybe your "right wing" pigeon-hole is restricting your vision.
:D
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rpm371
Not everyone bases there beliefs on their Party.
Like me for instance.
I am a Pro choice, pro gay rights and I am a registered Republican.
I would vote for a dem that was not an anti gun nut and did not want to take more of my money.
Maybe you should take a look at yourself before you go around spewing crap about others Hypocrisy.
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I would consider myself anti-union...
and I certainly ain't conservative!
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Gto, sounds like you and I have a lot in common. I vote for the candidate that I belive will do the best job, or least damage. Most of the time I vote Democrat, sometimes Republican. Brace yourself, I voted for Reagan, twice. If there were a SERIOUS Libertarian candidate I would probably vote for them.
I was referring to those that wave the Republican banner like it was holy scripture, but LOVE their Union jobs. Early on Unions were branded as Communist, correct? How much farther left can you get? I guess you would have to call this situational ethics.
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RPM lol well I would have voted for Reagan but I was barely a teen then ehehe
I think anyone who blindly follows the party line without looking at both sides and giving it thought needs helps. Both side have things to offer. Neither side is always right, and both sides have some VERY sleazy people in their ranks.
I am still up in the air here on Unions, banana makes a point about Tenure, but I still don't think teachers need unions or tenure, maybe a set way to investagate parent complaints but the idea that(in the case I know of) getting rid of the bad teach was going to be next to imposible seems very wrong.
I can see how unions can be nice but they can do harm as well.
LOL, what have I learned? I union can be good or bad, and it just depends on the Union, the workers and the company!
:)
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Originally posted by Mini D
But I also believe they are a refuge for people adept at hiding within the system that were long overdue for termination.
MiniD
It doesn't quite work like that anymore. Take the local 103 electricians for example(or the local 22 laborers), if you call in sick too much, or they don't like your work ethic, they will not hire you for their next job. They will ask the hall for someone else.
How do unions work for you? Unions allow you to pool your money, therefore getting alot more for your money. Local 103 puts $8.00 an hour into your pension(a pension safe from the likes of Enron). Medical and dental(dental!), and school twice a week(union school and experience for your license is more demanding than the state requirements). Not to mention a good wage. When companies hire workers from the 103, they know they are getting well educated workers and quality work.
Let me give you an example of non-union work. I worked for a glazing company in St. Pete, Fl. I got hired for a little more than minimum wage. I was sent to the job(no training whatsoever). We were screwing in the metal frames of windows in a new building(lakeland). I would stand on a foot ladder on one floor holding in the frame(almost half way out the opening) while the person on the next floor adjusted the top and put in screws. Well, on the 6th floor, the person working on the floor above lost his grip. I still had a grip on the lower section. It happened fast, but someone up top yelled "let it go!" I let go and grabbed the ledge and pulled myself back in. The frame fell to ground level with quite the crash. The (supervisor of the site?) was looking over plans with a few gentlemen in suits(and hardhats). I'll never forget the look on his face. He marched up to the building like darth maul. He ripped my boss a new stunninghunk.
The only benefit I had was a life insurance policy(required by the state for the type of work I was doing).
Unions worthless? Hardly. As a nation we are a union, if we are not united, we regress.
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we don't need unions, what we need is for you to work a 12 hour day for $1.75 a hour, then i can buy lots of stuff cheap.
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According to the US Department of Labor, union workers make an average of $717 a week.
Non-union workers make an average of $573 a week.
Which one do you want to be? :D
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Originally posted by k2cok
According to the US Department of Labor, union workers make an average of $717 a week.
Non-union workers make an average of $573 a week.
Which one do you want to be? :D
Bill Gates and I have an average net worth of 30 billion.
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2 is not a significant statistical sample, friend.
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I have gone full circle in my thoughts about unions.
granted I have never been in a union.
unions are the only thing keeping companys from ripping off its workers. in the bad or lean times.
wehn the companys want everyone to "tighten there belts and help the company out."
while the big shots are getting raises and large bonus for the savings they are making for the company by laying off the workers amd or cutting there pay.
I have been layed off from 2 jobs in the last 3 years.
one at Kmart(who does not have a union.)
where in the 90s they went through and cut most of the workers who had been there for any amount of time
I was cut just before they went bankrupt.
then a second time when i worked for omaha steaks.
they reduced all there store employies wages by about 30%.
in some states. (MI is where I live)
you can be hired and fired for any reason. you do not have any rights. if they want to hire someone cheaper they just fire you and replace you..
unions give some stability in peoples lives.
yes they are politicaly corupt but we are stuck between the the big companys and the unions.
we just need to pick the one who is the less evil.
btw I belive the unions have been broken in this country. they do not have the pull any more.
you can see that with the new overtime law.
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Originally posted by Gadfly
2 is not a significant statistical sample, friend.
Me, my wife and Bill Gates have an average net worth of 20 billion.
Sorry about the earlier statistical miscue.... thanks for helping.
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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
Yes, I worked for 2 companies that tried to bring in unions, everyone that tried to get the union in was fired.
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Unions have done a lot FOR me.... and a lot TO me.
One thing that you have to keep in mind is that a union is a buisness in itself. It is in the buisness of making money just like every other buisness. It gets it's income from the wages of the employees it represents. Most this income is then used by the union to pay its own employees, and some of the top employees of the big unions are paid well... VERY WELL.
Some of the money is used to recruit new union members. When the union is trying to get in, there is pizza & beer at the meetings. After they are in, that stops and your dues are now buying pizza & beer for the next round of potential payroll deductions.
In return, the union is supposedly going to represent you... Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't.
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I work for one of the Big Three in MI and I must say this is a real emotional subject for me. As a salaried employee -non-union-engineer, I must deal with UAW slobs all day. Slobs that take out the garbage and make a 100k. More than most non-union salaried workers. Yes-thats right- the janitor makes 100k but the engineer makes half that or less. Here's the best part- 90 of the UAW thinks the world owes them an easy very very high paying job. They have been paid 4x the market rate for thier labor for years and you would think they would even try and do a good job right? Hell no. As the UAW members die off or retire- they are not replaced. The labor gets outsourced to other countries or the South to a non-union shop. We will see a day when the big three buy 100% of thier cars pre-built and just put thier company badge on them. Unions have destroyed a proud industry.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I was referring to those that wave the Republican banner like it was holy scripture, but LOVE their Union jobs.
So who exactly are you referring to in this thread?
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You would be surprised how many union workers lean to the right. Conservative does not mean anti union.
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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
Yes, I worked for 2 companies that tried to bring in unions, everyone that tried to get the union in was fired.
how does that make the union worthless? if you had voted in the union those people would have been protected. the only mistake those guys made was over-estimating the backbone of their fellow workers. also firing someone for union ofiliation or discussing unions with other workers (as long as you aren't interfearing with their work) is illegle and considered an unfair labor practice.
You would be surprised how many union workers lean to the right. Conservative does not mean anti union.
the republican platform is deffinatetly anti-union. the main reason I vote democrat is the republican stance on labor relations. the preaching of family values, while trying to undermine workplace safety and a living wage.
the sad thing is that most working people are very conservative on many issues. we have to align ourselves with the fruits and nuts to get a fair shot in the workplace.
united we bargain, divided we beg
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LOL!
No answer RPM? Just innuendo?
Way to take a stand, man!
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We will allways need collective barganing and contracts between workers and managment. This is the function of Unions no matter what you call them.
The problem is with all the stuff that goes along with it. I don't believe in unions as they exist now and think that they are on the way out but... we will allways have some form of collective barganing and contracts. That can't and shouldn't be reversed..
We owe a lot to the original organizers of unions but it is time for some change.
lazs
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Everybody sing!
Come you ranks of labor, come you union core,
And see if you remember the struggles of before,
When you were standing helpless on the outside of the door
And you started building links on the Chain.
On the Chain, you started building links on the Chain.
When the police on the horses were waitin' on demand,
ridin' through the strike with the pistols in their hands,
Swingin' at the skulls of many a union man,
As you built one more link on the chain, on the chain,
As you built one more link on the chain.
Then the army of the fascists tried to put you on the run,
but the army of the union, they did what could be done,
Oh, the power of the factory was greater than the gun,
As you built one more link on the chain, on the chain,
As you built one more link on the chain.
And then in 1954, decisions finally made,
The black man was a-risin' fast and racin' from the shade,
And your union took no stand and your union was betrayed,
As you lost yourself a link on the chain, on the chain,
As you lost yourslef a link on the chain.
And then there came the boycotts and then the freedom rides,
And forgetting what you stood for, you tried to block the tide,
Oh, the automation bosses werre laughin' on the side,
As they watched you lose your link on the chain, on the chain,
As they watched you lose your link on the chain.
You know when they block your trucks boys, by layin' on the road,
All that they are doin' is all that you have showed,
That you gotta strike, you gotta fight to get what you are owed,
When you're building all your links on the chain, on the chain,
When you're building all your links on the chain.
Amd the man who tries to tell you that they'll take your job away,
He's the same man who was scabbin' hard just the other day,
And your union's not a union till he's thrown out of the way,
And he's chokin' on your links of the chain, of the chain,
And he's chokin' on your links of the chain.
For now the times are tellin' you the times are rollin' on,
And you're fighting for the same thing, the jobs that will be gone,
Now it's only fair to ask you boys, which side are you on?
As you're buildin' all your links on the chain, on the chain,
As you're buildin' all your links on the chain.
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Originally posted by lazs2
We will allways need collective barganing and contracts between workers and managment. This is the function of Unions no matter what you call them.
The problem is with all the stuff that goes along with it. I don't believe in unions as they exist now and think that they are on the way out but... we will allways have some form of collective barganing and contracts. That can't and shouldn't be reversed..
We owe a lot to the original organizers of unions but it is time for some change.
lazs
OMG! Yet another issue where Lazs and I agree completely.
I gotta go buy those lottery tickets, now. This has got to be a good omen!