Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: gatt on October 13, 2003, 08:16:02 AM
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http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/luftwaffe/0764318764.html
From the same author of the famous book about the Ta152. Very good with many performance charts, photos and reports. If your interested in that beautiful fighter, buy it. Obviously its very expensive (about 60 USD) :rolleyes:
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Ordered! :)
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There is one chart showing the climb rate of the 190D-9, Jumo 213 A engined, with increased boost modification (carried out on all 190D before they joined combat) and MW50 on.
The climb rate at medium-low altitude looks impressive: at about 4Km it is still about 4,100ft/min+ (about 21mt/sec), dropping considerably after.
At very low level the climb rate was about 22,5mt/sec .... not bad. A tough opponent on the vertical even for a late Mk Spitfire.
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AH Dora-9 climbs at about 3800-3900 fpm at 4Km, slightly underrated compared to that book.
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Probably AH's 190D-9 has not the standard increased boost modification (sa called "1900" from the hp made available) but "only" the MW50. However, the drop in climb performance after 4Km looks more pronounced in the book's chart.
You should see the chart regarding the top speed of the Fw190 family. Well, there was no room in the chart for the top speed at altitude of the 190D-12 .... ;) A good match fro the Spitfire XXI and the P-47M indeed.
In the author's opinion, such performance at medium-low was made available especially for green LW pilots (almost always) fleeing away from allied fighters.
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Naudet did some tests on the ah 190d9 and concluded it was most likely a 190d9 that made 1900ps.
An early Dora with a stock Jumo 213A, without any modifications was not much of an improvement over the the Fw190A-8 except for somewhat better high altitude performance. The first production Dora's soon received a field modification of a non-standard, low pressure, MW-50 installation "Oldenburg system" and a system referred to as "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" which increased power output of the Jumo 213A from 1750 to 1900PS without an additional boosting agent such as MW-50 or GM-1 up until the first of 1945 when production high pressure MW-50 kits, compressor modifications and C3 fuel were prevelant in D-9's.
The addition of a "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" increased output from 1750 to 1900PS by allowing an increased maximum boost pressure , without an additional boosting agent. This could be used below 5000m and with the addition MW-50 gave an Emergency output of 2100PS. In addition, this enabled the previous "Emergency" power setting to be maintained for 30 min on the deck and the "Climb and Combat" power setting (1620PS) to be maintained indefinitely. This "Rüstatz" was in use with III/JG54 in October '44 and was in wide spread use with three other Jagdgeschwader by December '44.
From what I have read in one publication, 1 PS-Pferdestaerke is equivalent to approximately 0.986hp. Others have stated that 1 PS equals 1 hp.
from here
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Dora.htm
There is one chart showing the climb rate of the 190D-9, Jumo 213 A engined, with increased boost modification
I assume you mean the "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" that increased ps from 1750 to 1900ps. From what I understand this was c3 fuel injection just like was used in the a series 190s where vaporized fuel prevented detonation.
My understanding is the "Oldenburg system" was a simplified installation of an mw50 system. MW50 was installed on production planes in January 45. Due to shortages with the standard mw50 system the oldenburg system was used.
The oldenburg system used mw50 where the "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" used c3 injection.
I am no expert but this is what I gather from reading on other boards. Maybe some one else can clear it up better.
Ofcourse what this means in regards to the performance of the ah 190d9 I dunno :p.
Maybe some one more knowledgeable can tell us.
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Batz, AH Test with D9, climbing at 203 mph (175 TAS), after taking off with 100% fuel.
12k 3500 fpm wep on
12.5k 2500 fpm wep off
Your link shows for Special Emergency, Takeoff and Emergency, Climb and combat and Power for best endurance:
12.1k 3766, 3095, 2746 and 1985fpm
The closer marks for what we have are "Special Emergency" and "Climb and combat" power settings.
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Did you use the best climb speed in that test? (I don't even know what the best climb speed is at 12K)
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Btw. Batz, did the real Ta-152 have such a nasty tendency to go into an unrecoverable nose up flat spin?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ordered! :)
;)
(http://www.cptfarrels.com/Prevs/Bf-109G-2_Schilling_JG54.jpg)
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Nige G-2! :)
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Nice 109 there Gatt, but one thing I noticed was the swastika. Didn't think Il-2 allowed those?
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Yep, the original Il-2 and FB couldnt have the svastika painted, however you can esily have it with mods and custom skins.
P.S.: G-2 skin by Cpt.Farrel: http://www.cptfarrels.com
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The swastika was is included in the russian relwease i believe, In the us and euro release the swastika was removed. You could download the "hakencross" file and put in your fb/il2 folder and start Il2/fb using the il2hk exe.
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Heads up guys, from the same author is incoming (maybe before end of 2003) a book about the 190A series.
If it is as good as the Ta152 and 190D-9 ones it should be *very* interesting and full of performance charts, and tests reports, many never before published.
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Information is ammunition ... as they say.
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Btw. Batz, did the real Ta-152 have such a nasty tendency to go into an unrecoverable nose up flat spin?
I am not much up on the 152 but I think what happens in ah is a combination of CoG and the weird endency of some ah planes to get stuck in a "nose up stall". If you make sure you burn the aft tank it reduces the possibility to stall.
When in those stalls cut your eng. I believe the prop adds drag and keeps the nose from going over.
I am sure you have read this before
On April 14, 1945, two Hawker Tempests of 486 (New Zealand) Squadron took off from the Volkel airfield in Holland in order to attack the railway yards at Ludwigslust. As they initiated their low-level attack, three Ta 152s of Stab/JG 301 were scrambled against them from Neustadt-Glewe, five miles away. Within minutes, the German aircraft hurriedly fell upon the New Zealanders. Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground. In the following dogfight at almost tree-top level, Sattler's comrade Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke displayed the superior maneuverability of the Ta 152 by out-turning and shooting down the Tempest flown by Warrant Officer Mitchell, who had no chance to survive.
Reschke was an excellent pilot at the controls of the Ta 152. Ten days later he flew "Green 9", shown here, and destroyed two Yak-9s in the air over Berlin. Reschke had flown in JG 300, I./JG 302. and III./JG 301 before he was transferred to Stab/JG 301. He survived the war with a total score of 26 victories, eighteen of them 4-engine bombers.
In Reschke's words
So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.
Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us."
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Originally posted by Batz
So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began.
So what happened with the second tempest and second Ta?
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In the 190D-9 new book there is an report of a mock dogfight at medium altitude done after the end of the war between a german pilot with a D-13 (with no boost and no ammo :D) and a canadian (IIRC) pilot with a Tempest.
Guess who won even without the boost ... :D
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Originally posted by Batz
I am not much up on the 152 but I think what happens in ah is a combination of CoG and the weird endency of some ah planes to get stuck in a "nose up stall". If you make sure you burn the aft tank it reduces the possibility to stall.
When in those stalls cut your eng. I believe the prop adds drag and keeps the nose from going over.
I am sure you have read this before
In Reschke's words
One other interesting fact is the 152 that went down was hit by a high deflection shot from the Temp. Freak shot, he didn't lose control of his ride. You can find this claim in the 152 book by this author for the new D-9 book. Don't remember the page but it is in there. Ordering book right now!
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Originally posted by gatt
In the 190D-9 new book there is an report of a mock dogfight at medium altitude done after the end of the war between a german pilot with a D-13 (with no boost and no ammo :D) and a canadian (IIRC) pilot with a Tempest.
Guess who won even without the boost ... :D
Funny thing is you don't see that report posted. Wonder why lol.... Love the D-13, the D-12 would have been more fitting for a perk ride in the MA. Top speed hit below 20k oh yea.
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If you get the D-12 as a perk you should get the P-47M, the Spitfire 21 and even the P-51Z (;)) as well, otherwise allies cries will get louder and louder.
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The Luftwaffe Album, pretty good book lots of interesting stuff covers a wide variety of LW aircraft also reasonable price.The Luftwaffe Album (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1854095196/thirdreichfactbo/104-7099346-0955947)
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Sorry GODO,
I missed your last reply
The other temp -
Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.
As you see Chris is right that Short claims to have shot down Sattler. Aufhammer and Short got into a good fight and short was able to disengage and escape.