Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MRPLUTO on October 13, 2003, 10:31:34 AM
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A survey by PIPA (Program on International Policy Attitudes) came up with some surprising and dramatic results.
Respondents were asked three questions about Iraq:
1. Since the war with Iraq has ended, is it your impression that the U.S. has or has not found Iraqi weapons of mass destruction?
2. Is it your impression the Iraq did or did not use chemical or biological weapons in the war that just ended?
3. Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the U.S. going to war with Iraq, do you think: The majority of people favor the U.S. going to war?
To date, no weapons of mass destruction have been found, nor were any chemical or biological weapons used in the recent war. World opinion was not in favor of attacking Iraq.
The respondents were then asked which news sources they used.
Those who got most of their information from Fox News had the highest rate of misperceptions. Those who use NPR and/or PBS has the lowest rate.
80% of Fox respondents had at least one or more misperceptions :(
Only 23% of NPR/PBS respondents had one or more misperceptions.
45% of Fox viewers got all three questions wrong.
Only 4% of NPR views missed all three.
Here's the complete report; it's in PDF format. Scroll down to page 13 and look at the chart on the left, "Frequency of Misperceptions", and the one under it.
Click me! (http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf)
The report admits that it can't tell which came first, the chicken or the egg -- that is, are Fox viewers more misinformed to begin with than NPR/PBS types, or did Fox News make them misinformed?
MRPLUTO
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We could argue long about question #3, however I won't. That it is debatable yet espoused as fact by your PIPA calls into question their credibilily on the rest of their findings as well.
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So, what if you view/listen to, both?
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Let me guess......
You heard this on NPR
If you believe this stuff then you have been tooled.
grow up.
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Iraq does have WMD, because they used them on our troups in the recent war - doesn't every one remember the massive causulties we suffered.
And then Saddam drove the WMD and the chemical/biological mobile laboratory truckes - which Powel had CAD drawings of - to a secrete Al Quada terrorist base in Syria.
That's why we can't find any WMD!
Seems like the only reliable source of any news is the National Enquirer - because Rush Limbaugh is addicted to pain killers.
Unless Rush is lying to us too?
Say it isn't so Rush!
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Impress me and add a 4th poll question....
4) Is there a Santa Claus?
All this polls baloney over whose news, yada yada....Christmas is coming...I wanna know if he's showing or not :p :rofl
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AKIron wrote:
We could argue long about question #3, however I won't. That it is debatable yet espoused as fact by your PIPA calls into question their credibilily on the rest of their findings as well.
3. Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the U.S. going to war with Iraq, do you think: The majority of people favor the U.S. going to war?
Hey Iron, why won’t you debate question number 3?
credibilily = credibility
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How many recall we went after Iraq for countless violations, refer to UN Resolution 1441....
Oh wait, no one wants facts. My bad
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Just out of curiosity: Where is this opinion poll of the people of the world and what do *they* actually think? Weblink would be nice.
Was this world poll from NPR, the Guardian or Pravda?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Was this world poll from NPR, the Guardian or Pravda?
The difference being? ;)
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Originally posted by LePaul
How many recall we went after Iraq for countless violations, refer to UN Resolution 1441....
Oh wait, no one wants facts. My bad
Fact: There was nothing in 1441 that authorized the US to invade Iraq.
h
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Those are the dumbest poll questions I've seen in awhile. There are no "right or wrong" answers that can be proven either way.
Where's my fishing rod?
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I heard about the poll through a posting on BeliefNet. PIPA has nothing to do with NPR. It's partly affiliated with the University of Maryland.
Yeager,
You said: "If you believe this stuff then you have been tooled." What "stuff" shouldn't I believe? Do you have evidence the poll is fradulent? A hack job? Did you bother to click on the link and read the report?
AKIron & Yeager,
As for world opinion, go to page 8 of the report for details on several international surveys, none of which are by NPR, the Guardian, or Pravda. There are two weblinks there.
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Rip,
Check out page 12 of the report. It shows the breakdown of how people answered the question, "Where do you tend to get most of your news?"
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LePaul,
I think we're all interested in facts. You state one, then get cute. Sorry, but if you won't spend the time and energy to write clearly what you mean, then you're not very persuasive.
MRPLUTO
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Martlet,
I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
*Go to page 8 of the report for details and links on the international surveys.
*Weapons of mass destruction have not been found in Iraq. Iraqi scientists, who presumably are now free to tell the truth about Saddam's WMD programs, say that they know of none and have been unable to take investigators to any production facilities. No stockpiles have been found.
*No chemical or biological weapons were used in the recent war. I challenge you to find any press report to the contrary.
Also, to say that these are dumb questions...well, that leaves me incredulous. I can't imagine that any educated person would agree with you.
MRPLUTO
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stop whining, conservative "news" is and always has been entertainment for mean people.
look at the responses nothing to say but character assasination and bile.
wow just like fox, go figgure.
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
Martlet,
I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
*Go to page 8 of the report for details and links on the international surveys.
*Weapons of mass destruction have not been found in Iraq. Iraqi scientists, who presumably are now free to tell the truth about Saddam's WMD programs, say that they know of none and have been unable to take investigators to any production facilities. No stockpiles have been found.
*No chemical or biological weapons were used in the recent war. I challenge you to find any press report to the contrary.
Also, to say that these are dumb questions...well, that leaves me incredulous. I can't imagine that any educated person would agree with you.
MRPLUTO
Sorry sir, but it is YOU who are completely wrong.
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Thanks vader, at least I'm not the only one that knows Faux news is as balanced as a wino on a 30 day bender.
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So, Martlet if I'm completely wrong, where are the news stories about the chemical and biological attacks on our troops? Hmmmmm? If I'm completely wrong it should be easy to find them.
Same goes for reports on the WMD you say have been found. No news reports about them, even on FOX.
And did you bother to actually read any of the surveys I provided links for? After you've read them, try actually using facts to refute them, if you can.
If you can't do this, then you should retract your unsubstantiated opinions.
MRPLUTO
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I buy it, sure absolutely.
As to the chicken/egg question, that is if misinformed people gravitate towards Fox or if otherwise bright people get misinformed by Fox, I think it's a combination of both.
The replies to this thread, and this O'Club itself is a reflection of that. Many people predisposed to a set of beliefs gravitate to where their beliefs will be propped up and nurtured... and anything challenging those beliefs gets attacked. A virtual group hug.
It's human nature to occasionally find yourself not only disagreeing with certain posters here, but also to become offended and angry at those posts/ideas. The average person isn't gonna want to spend a huge amount of time in an environment if this happened more often than not. To the majority, they hang out here because it serves as a validation for their beliefs. I think the minority hang out here because they aren't afraid of being challenged and even find the excercise fun.
While I highly doubt Fox news deliberately misinforms its viewers, they've got a pretty good grasp on their viewership and are not going to go out of their way to inform their viewers if it means threatening that comfort level.
Lol... where do ya keep the flame suits around here?
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Originally posted by 10Bears
AKIron wrote:
3. Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the U.S. going to war with Iraq, do you think: The majority of people favor the U.S. going to war?
Hey Iron, why won’t you debate question number 3?
credibilily = credibility
Hey, looked like a "t" to me, so I proofread without my glasses. :p
OK, let's look at number 3. One of the survey's they used was an International Gallup poll. This poll asked this question:
“Are you in favor of military action against Iraq: under no circumstances; only if sanctioned by the United Nations; unilaterally by America and its allies?” Of the 38 countries polled (including 20 in Europe), not a single one showed majority support for unilateral action and in nearly every case the percentage was very low.
They translated this to mean that the majority of people in the world were against war with Iraq. Then they have the arrogance to say people are stupid if they don't agree with their distortion of the evidence.
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Martlet, I think everyone will understand you better if they go to your website. At the top it reads: "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but my biased opinion"
Clearly, the difference between your "biased opinion" and "the truth" is unclear in your own mind. I can tell you that they are very different.
MRPLUTO
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Pluto, they hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe. Nothing will ever change that.
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AKIron,
You wrote "they", but I'm not sure whom you mean...the Gallup Poll or PIPA?
And what evidence has been distorted? You don't say; you just make an unexplained charge. Do you mean that because this survey only covered 38 countries then we can't draw any overall conclusions about world opinion from it? All surveys take samples; we don't have to ask every person or every country to know how people feel. The numbers you quote show very little support for the U.S. going to war against Iraq. And the Gallup poll cited here isn't the only poll to show that world opinion opposed the invasion.
Or did you mean that someone has covered up evidence that we were attacked with chemical or biological weapons? Or that WMD really have been found?
As I said to Martlet, if you're going to make assertions like this, back them up with facts. I have. Can you find any international surveys showing that people around the world supported the war in Iraq? Any links you can provide to reports of WMD finds or chemical/biological attacks on our troops? If you can't, why should anyone take your opinions seriously?
MRPLUTO
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Originally posted by GScholz
I would have voted "only if sanctioned by the UN", and that means I was against this war.
I'm glad you said that before I had to ask. Please describe to me the difference between war sanctioned by the UN and not.
BTW, I happen to believe the war was sanctioned by the UN but that's another topic.
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
AKIron,
You wrote "they", but I'm not sure whom you mean...the Gallup Poll or PIPA?
And what evidence has been distorted? [/B]
They being PIPA. They twisted the findings of the polls (which aren't absolute truth btw). Perhaps they should have asked the same question as contained in the poll they used as their source. They had an agenda and twisted the truth to support it.
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Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'll elaborate. They said according to you:
"3. Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the U.S. going to war with Iraq, do you think: The majority of people favor the U.S. going to war?"
This is not the same as from the poll they referenced to prove their point:
“Are you in favor of military action against Iraq: under no circumstances; only if sanctioned by the United Nations; unilaterally by America and its allies?”
If they had better qualified their question as:
3. Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the U.S. going to war with Iraq, do you think: The majority of people favor the U.S. going to war without UN approval?"
They might have been more convincing in their inference. Not to do so demonstrates dishonesty.
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Originally posted by GScholz
AKIron you seem to think this poll was made before the UN declined. These questions were asked after the fact that the US/UK went to war without UN saction, meaning that the UN qualifier does counts as being against this war, but not some hypothetical UN war.
There were at least two polls, one in January (before) and one in April (after). I wanted a look at the polls themselves but alas the link in the report to http://www.gallupinternational.com is unresponsive.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It's the difference between a lawful act of intervention by the international community, and an illegal act of aggression against a sovereign nation state.
Would you please tell me which UNSC resolution authorized the USA/UK to invade Iraq?
I bet you already know but here ya go.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7564.doc.htm
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For the USA to be able to justify it's claim of self defence WMD needs to be found in large quantities, and it needs to be shown that it was battlefield ready. So far these claims are yet to be justified.
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Is this your opinion or is it documented somewhere that "WMD needs to be found in large quantities, and it needs to be shown that it was battlefield ready"
I always thought the real concern was some iraqi weapons specialist slipping a pocket sized vial of smallpox to a terrorist to be loosed in the NY subway system that was a bigger threat than missles loaded with sarin.
Im disappointed no WMD has been found but we are talking about other scenarios besides the mobile weapons labs and artillery shells loaded with mustard. These things may honestly never be tracked down before its too late.
Getting back to this poll proving that people that watch fox news are idiots and people that listen to NPR are brilliant. I cant help but get the feeling that this is all just political tooling. I am sure the majority of people get their information from many different sources. In my years of listening to NPR I heard about the same number of idiots talking there as anywhere else in the media, if not a tad bit more so. My experience simply tells me pluto has been tooled.
Regarding world opinion polls. Who cares. When it goes against my beliefs I simply blow them off. Just human nature and besides, I have pretty much concluded that France, Germany and Canada were grandstanding on political grounds first, some sort of euro circle jerking consortium second and a far distant third, concern for the safety of americans.
In the end I want my government to be concerned with me long before they are concerned about other people on the planet. Thats what they are supposed to do at least.......Me first!
Straffo second and gscholz a distant third :lol
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Yeager,
I don't think that WMD need to be found in large quantities or battlefield ready. Perhaps someday some old mustard shells will be found collecting dust. How much of a threat that is, and whether it justified war is an argument that will have to made if and when such weapons are ever found.
Back to the poll: It never said that Fox News viewers are idiots and that NPR viewers are brilliant. It only showed that NPR listeners had fewer misconceptions about the Iraq war. Remember, even 4% of the NPR listeners missed all three questions.
You said that you felt this was all "political tooling" and that I have been "tooled", presumably by listening to NPR too much. What do you mean by "tooling" and "tooled"? The dictionary didn't help. Do you mean manipulated? If so, you're dead wrong. I have conservative and liberal views; I get my news from many sources--I even watch FOX News sometimes. Tony Snow on Sunday mornings, for example. I read the Washington Post and the Washington Times everyday. I'm very well informed, know what's what, and am not easily duped or misled by political spin doctors.
MRPLUTO
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
I read the Washington Post and the Washington Times everyday.
Ack! Typo?
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Twice I found myself part of a survey. :eek:
Never again:mad:
Last 2 questions on both were the ones they wanted answers for.
In both the last 2 question were so convoluted and intricate I could only figure they were designed to give the surveyors the answer they wanted no matter what the people surveyed answered.....
When someone starts with the survey thing I start ignoring the results.
Too many of the current surveys are paid for on the grounds of the answer WANTED and not on the truth!!!!!
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Originally posted by wrag
Twice I found myself part of a survey. :eek:
Never again:mad:
Last 2 questions on both were the ones they wanted answers for.
In both the last 2 question were so convoluted and intricate I could only figure they were designed to give the surveyors the answer they wanted no matter what the people surveyed answered.....
When someone starts with the survey thing I start ignoring the results.
Too many of the current surveys are paid for on the grounds of the answer WANTED and not on the truth!!!!!
Gallup is not without credibility.
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
Martlet, I think everyone will understand you better if they go to your website. At the top it reads: "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but my biased opinion"
Clearly, the difference between your "biased opinion" and "the truth" is unclear in your own mind. I can tell you that they are very different.
MRPLUTO
I'm sorry, next time I'll try to phrase it in a manner equal to your reading comprehension level. I said:
Those are the dumbest poll questions I've seen in awhile. There are no "right or wrong" answers that can be proven either way.
Please ask your mom to explain that to you.
Any fool knows you can manipulate a poll's outcome by the questions. If your political views are tied to polls, it's no wonder you're clueless.
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If you polled three positive questions regarding iraq, my guess is the results would be opposite.
It's a question of what they want to report.
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Oh and Nash!
You can send the ladies you used in your avatar to my place :D
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Nash,
No, not a typo. I read and listen to conservative and liberal views. Nobody is right all the time, so I keep an open mind.
MRPLUTO
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Isn't about conservative vs liberal...
Do a search on the Washington Times and Rev. Sun Myung Moon.
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Anyone who considers Fox and Friends a real news broadcast is silly, it's a morning show....the rest of Fox's programming ie. Tony Snow, Brit Hume, etc. is fairly good.
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Nash,
I'm well aware of the Moon-Times connection and influence, so this is accounted for when I read it! ;)
Despite the fact that The Washington Times self-stated purpose is to promote "Christianity", there are op-ed pieces and letters that do reflect what many on the right believe. And I just want to stay in touch with what many groups think. Also, the choice of stories covered is interesting.
MRPLUTO
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did a search on bush and moon how about this? his daddy is a big moon supporter !!
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon1.html
and i quote.
"I want to salute Reverend Moon, who is the founder of The Washington Times and also of Tiempos del Mundo," Bush declared. "
its gets better: motives?
"A lot of my friends in South America don't know about The Washington Times, but it is an independent voice. The editors of The Washington Times tell me that never once has the man with the vision interfered with the running of the paper, a paper that in my view brings sanity to Washington, D.C"
its a well known fact this is a total lie.: motives?
you want more ?
In September 1995, Bush and his wife, Barbara, gave six speeches in Asia for the Women's Federation for World Peace, a group led by Moon's wife, Hak Ja Han Moon. In one speech on Sept. 14 to 50,000 Moon supporters in Tokyo, Bush insisted that "what really counts is faith, family and friends." Mrs. Moon followed the ex-president to the podium and announced that "it has to be Reverend Moon to save the United States, which is in decline because of the destruction of the family and moral decay."
this guy and his son will do anyting for money and are total sociopathic liars. thank god i and the majority of americans can see beyond their taxes and hate they sell to the highest bidder.
hes your man alright.
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Originally posted by wrag
Too many of the current surveys are paid for on the grounds of the answer WANTED and not on the truth!!!!!
And then the Bush Republicans invented something rather dirty...
It's called PUSH POLLING... A Karl Rove invention back in Bush Senior days with Willie Horton... and continued on with Bush Jr.
They don't want answers they want to plant their filthy message into voters minds... give them reasons to doubt the character of the other candidate.
For example... when McCaine (a fellow Republican and war hero) was running in N.C.
Bush Republican Push Pollers called up North Caroliners and asked if they would support "McCaine even though he has an interracial child out of wedlock "
Of course, in sourthern white baptist country... children out of wedlock, especially interracially mixed children is anathema!
The question is inherently a lie. The truth is McCaine adopted a child from another country... who happens to not be caucasion.
In my book, that makes him a bigger man, than the Racists hiding behind the Bush's Republican party.
This kind of "statement" can't be placed on TV or in ads.. becuase it is a lie... however, person to person over the phone... unless it's recorded... well... it was just a survey.. not the views of the Bush Administration...
As Ross Perot would say: "Republican Dirty Tricks"
Ok Ross Perot was a nut case... even still... his was right about the Bush's form of Politics.