Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: strk on October 14, 2003, 07:04:00 AM
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this is bs - strk
U.S. Troops' Body Armor Delayed
Tuesday, October 14, 2003; Page A05
Nearly one-quarter of the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq still have not been issued a new type of ceramic body armor strong enough to stop bullets fired from assault rifles.
Delays in funding, production and shipping mean it will be December before all troops in Iraq will have the vests, which were introduced four years ago, military officials said.
Congress approved $310 million in April to buy 300,000 more of the bulletproof vests, with 30,000 destined to complete outfitting of the troops in Iraq. Of that money, however, only about $75 million has reached the Army office responsible for overseeing the vests' manufacture and distribution, said David Nelson, an official in that office.
Angry members of Congress said as many as 44,000 troops -- significantly more than the Pentagon's figure -- lack the vests due to the sluggish supply chain. Relatives of some soldiers have resorted to buying body armor in the United States and shipping it to their troops, congressional critics said.
The Interceptor vests include removable ceramic plates in the front and back that can stop bullets such as the rounds fired by Kalashnikov rifles common in Iraq and Afghanistan. Older-model vests can protect against shrapnel and other low-speed projectiles but not high-velocity rifle rounds.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
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Yeah, that is an outrage. Know when the Interceptor vests were developed?
The Interceptor vests were introduced in the 1990s.
Gotta wonder what took so long, eh?
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The department of the Treasury can get US$33,000,000 to promote the new $20 bill, but we can't get bulletproof vests to our soldiers in the field?
Nice. :mad:
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delays are from production line not supply chain. wasnt enough companies making the interceptor and the ones making it werent making enough a month. reason for not everyone having interceptor is armored guys werent issued interceptor but they getting them now. specops have had them since they showed up.
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Something tells me that this issue is a whole lot more complicated than the little Washington Post blurb or the righteous indignation of some of the posters would lead one to believe.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Been doing some looking on this.
The shortages come down to money and priorities. In 1998, Interceptors were available and issued to armies around the world. However, the U.S. military treats the replacement of body armor as any other "general-issue item." Thus, five years ago the military brass decided to implement a one-for-one exchange of new-for-old vests over a 10-year period. The military recently moved to increase production.
A question of priorities then. I would have to opine that the individual nearly always comes last in the procurement chain when there are way-kewl new weapons systems like the Crusader to dump tons of money on.
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Its BOOSHES fault!:mad:
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Here's a link to a thread on another forum with a couple more articles, one from LA Times and the other from NYT:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum66/HTML/000231.html
Those guys are peeved that there are some shady characters selling vests on E-bay to whomever... Plus family members of active duty trying to buy vests for their relatives because the supply system hasn't gotten to them (yet?).
mauser
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It's not about the vests themselves. The new ones won't stop rifle caliber rounds any better than the old ones. The only thing that does stop rifle caliber rounds is class 4 armor which is ceramic plate.
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If you guys gonna let ypur soldiers run around in that heat with a class 4 +40 lbs west, there will be more people dying from heartattacks and heat, then from gunfire.
(Its not that many that have been shoot, most have been blown up).
And that ceramic plate stops a ak47 bullet? ok, but does it stop a 30-06 or a 7,62x54 R?
NOPE:eek:
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Originally posted by crabofix
If you guys gonna let ypur soldiers run around in that heat with a class 4 +40 lbs west, there will be more people dying from heartattacks and heat, then from gunfire.
(Its not that many that have been shoot, most have been blown up).
And that ceramic plate stops a ak47 bullet? ok, but does it stop a 30-06 or a 7,62x54 R?
NOPE:eek:
Pretty good odds actually, the plates are rated for 7.62x51mm nato ball. 30-06 and 7.63x54r are only a little more powerful so anything short of point blank would be stopped.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Pretty good odds actually, the plates are rated for 7.62x51mm nato ball. 30-06 and 7.63x54r are only a little more powerful so anything short of point blank would be stopped.
Nope, It goes trough the ceramic plate at 100 yards, done that to about 6 Swedishmade vests and 4 US made.
The only vest that can take it is the Russian one, but they dont use ceramics in the vest=HEAVY. (got a little dent on 100 yards From 30-06 and from 7,62x54 R it got a little deeper dent).
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I better tell that I have great experience with Bodyarmour. My Firm executed the prior tests of Bodyarmour sent to the UN troops in former Jugoslavia.
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On a good note the vast majority of fire would be 7.62x39. Is this the newest shock plate you are talking about? There are two versions in current front line use by the US military. They are both rated for 7.62x51 mm though the newest one says 7.62x51 nato ball (AP) on it.
Don't forget that it is mounted inside of a vest rated for class 3 as well. I'm not sure how much it adds but it's a fair amount. Either way, the best plan is to avoid getting shot...
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
On a good note the vast majority of fire would be 7.62x39. Is this the newest shock plate you are talking about? There are two versions in current front line use by the US military. They are both rated for 7.62x51 mm though the newest one says 7.62x51 nato ball (AP) on it.
Don't forget that it is mounted inside of a vest rated for class 3 as well. I'm not sure how much it adds but it's a fair amount. Either way, the best plan is to avoid getting shot...
You see, everything NATO has is rated 7,62x51 as class 4. Now the 7,62x54 R is a very powerful round and used with many "russian" equipt armys. By snipers and machinegunners.
The class 3 vest does nothing. Do you know how a vest works and what the kevlar does to the bullet? It traps it by making a "twist". But, after one shoot, it is weakened.
Class 3+plate makes class 4
Class 1 takes knifes shootguns 22 caliber, class 2 takes 9mm, (not the swedish 9mm) class 3 5,56 class 4 7,62x51
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First off. All respect and thanks to coallition troops in the Middle East.
But aren't most US soldiers being killed or injured my RPGs or mines? Seems all i hear about is WIA and KIA by explosive devices. So ceramic vests wouldnt really help or they may even cause more casualties.
By my very weak understanding of the weapons being used a tradtional Vietnam gel vest would almost provide more protection. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by loser
By my very weak understanding of the weapons being used a tradtional Vietnam gel vest would almost provide more protection. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct.
As I said, unmobilety in a class 4 west is not the best, especiallt not in the heat.
Schrapnel and blast.
By the way, have you ever shoot a "deer" (we have smaller deers here then US) with a shootgun, say number 3 load range 30 yards. They die instantly, not mant bbs penetrate even the skinn, their heart stops from the shock.
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saying that dudes are getting killed most by explosions is showing that plates are doing the job. guys are getting hit by 7.62x39 and plates are saving them. some dude getting killed makes the evening news but a plate saving his life wont.
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I dont give a dam what it cost!!
Our people over there deserve the best they can get!
And we aint giving it to them.
And that my friends Is BULLCHIT:mad:
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Personally I think that anyone sugesting that the US troops areŽnt getting the best, most durrable stuff, because of money, is way out of line. I admire the US troops equiptment and the organization around them. Keeping the troops alive seam to be the most important thing. When I did basic training, the word was: "in combat, you guys will live statisticly about 10 sec" a very incuraging statement.
There could be other reasons, like because they need do be mobile.
Have anyone used a Class 4 west with amoured plates during excercises or combat? It is a very heavy piece to wear in 120 farenheit. How fast would you do that 100 meter dash, in 2min?
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crabofix, i wasn't sure but thanks.
You are hereby invited to hunt Canuck Deer in my Province. The bucks at 3 years old weigh 120 KGs at least. 8 regular points at one side. But you sure cant use a SG.
unless you hunt early
.273 is the only humane way to go, center mass. .300 or .308 winchester cause shock or lung collapse. Suffucation is not deserved on anything. (Im severely cholostrophobic)
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Originally posted by loser
crabofix, i wasn't sure but thanks.
You are hereby invited to hunt Canuck Deer in my Province. The bucks at 3 years old weigh 120 KGs at least. 8 regular points at one side. But you sure cant use a SG.
unless you hunt early
.273 is the only humane way to go, center mass. .300 or .308 winchester cause shock or lung collapse. Suffucation is not deserved on anything. (Im severely cholostrophobic)
Yes, .273 sounds like a nice and must be pretty flatshooting. Not to diffrent from our 6,5x55 (.243?). We use this for Elk and Moose.
All though the 30-06 is a widely popular caliber, infact the most popular for the Moose.
The 300, 338 wm is way to powerful and nasty to shoot. 5.56 way to fragile (.223), 308, doesŽnt really "cut" it.
The "deers" here get around 50 to 70 KGs, what we actully call deer is what you guys call Elk. We call the "moose" Elk.
and thanks for the inventation loser
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What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.
Karaya
Should I stop wearing a seatbelt because I might die of heart disease later in life?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.
Karaya
80% of combat wounds are to the arms and legs
10% are to the head
90% of all fatalaties in combat are due to head wounds
most injuries are caused by blast and shrap - very few people actually get shot
If I had a choice and I was in a hot dry environment I'd take body armour with a basic ability to stop 9mm - with the option of ceramic plates for assault or guard duties which would be removable.
I'd want a very, very good helmet.
I served in Angola in the early 80's - we had just got kevlar helmets and no-one even thought about body armour.
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An AK-47 round is a hell of a lot different than a 9mm.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
An AK-47 round is a hell of a lot different than a 9mm.
Karaya
A class 2 Body armour is a hell of a less burdon then a class 4.
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Maybe a little off topic, but:
Doesnt the AK-47 and the SKS use the same round?
Somone was posting in another thread that the SKS was barely able to take down a deer or something. The one I have ( Russian circa 1954) will put rounds through lots of things I never would have thought it could....Like tree trunks and heavy steel from car parts.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Maybe a little off topic, but:
Doesnt the AK-47 and the SKS use the same round?
Somone was posting in another thread that the SKS was barely able to take down a deer or something. The one I have ( Russian circa 1954) will put rounds through lots of things I never would have thought it could....Like tree trunks and heavy steel from car parts.
The russian 7,62x 39 is a copy of the German 7,92x33 and Is a powerful round at short range.
The rumours about certain rounds "Hoax" are many and I can tell you one.
The Swedish armyversion of 9mm parabellum, m39/B,Has a little lighter bullet and a "harder" bullet and is loaded a little hotter then the original.
The "hoax" is that it wont penetrate heavy winterclothing at 300 yards. Yet, this round put the whole world of Bodyarmour upside down. So Body armour class 2 would stand for a .357 and a .44, it would stop the 9 mm Para. as well. Because af the harder "core" and speed the same Bodyarmour wont stop the 9mm 39/B.
In the tests with the Class 4 Russian bodyarmour, it would make a dent in the steelplate, while the 9mm para would just "splat" away the paint (20 yards, fired from a submachinegun with 22cm length of barrel(8.34 inch)). It would penetrate the class 2 vest, enter the "body" about 5cm, while the 9mm Para, would be "caught" and stopped without entering the "body".
(The tests was contucted with the use of big "soapbar" to act as "the body".
It is not 100% accurate, because the body of a human is not as compact as a bar of soap and it is also filled with bones.
Maybe a Pig would have been a better alternative to the "soapbar").
Non of the bullets would penetrate the class 3 vest.
The 7,62x39 would only be stopped by the class 4 vest. Both the Russian and US manufactured vest would stop it (armourplated).
THe weapon used was a AKM, it has a shorter barrellength then the SKS, about 10 cm shorter.
The 7,62x51 Nato, would also be stopped by both type of vests.
Wepon used: G3
The 30-06 would go straight trough the US manufactured class 4 vest after shattering the Plate, but only make a dent into the Russian steelplate.
Weapon used: FN Fal HB
The Russian 7,62x54 R, would perform about the same as the 30-06.
Weapon used: Dragonuv SVD
The 7,92x57 mauser would do the same thing.
Weapon used M76 (yugo sniperrifle)
Other weapons in the test, variuose calibers, diff. barreltwists: Ak74, Ak74SU, M16, AK-5, Stechin( 9mm makarov), ppsh(7,62 tokarev), Zastava (.357mag), Desert eagle (.357mag,.44mag), M1911a1 (.45 acp), Mp5, m45/B, m37/39 (9mm para, 39/B)
FN MAG, MG3A1, HK21, M1919a1 (7,62x55 Nato, 30-06)
Much to my suprise: the machineguns had a less penatration then the fulllength sniperrifles: Dragunov, M76, Parker/hale M85, M40A1. Never really thought about the change in barrellength.
(though the machineguns where fired only with 1 round at the time. A second hit in the Russian armourplate would penetrate it In all 7,62 calibers, except 7,62x39).
After theese field tests, the Russian vest was sent to a German for to give it a "classification" and to be tested in a labratory controlled inviroment. It filled the UN needs of beeing able to stop 7,92x57 Mauser and the 7,62x54 R
My question is: Why make Bodyarmour that stops Nato ammo, but cant stop Warzawapact ammo? (7,62x54R is still the main machinegunround both in Yugoslavia, china, northkorea, Iraq, Russia, Afganistan and in many African countries. Due to the cheap manufacture and cheap sales of russian weaponary).