Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on May 18, 2001, 03:10:00 PM
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I've posted most of this in Bloom's thread, but I think it's important enough to have its own thread. And, like most of the dribble we post here, this probably isn't new. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've often thought loss of arena wide DAR is so catastrophic, it should be done away with. Hell, there are so many reasons not to have arena wide DAR.
1. Realism.
2. Loss of arena-wide DAR when your opponents still have it removes much of the fun for the DAR-less competitors.
Instead, I propose something like this:
1. display local (say 25 mile radius, altitude of 800ft ABOVE the ground - not altimeter reading) dar dots.
2. increase the field ack - make it tougher to take down local dar. None of this 20mm stuff, 1k direct hit.
3. the strat chart should give you a way to look at the dar map for any FRIENDLY area -- perhaps this would be similar to calling a friendly base and saying "how are you doing?" Perhaps information about ack status in addition to hangar status. Anyway, it gives you a way to check local DAR for any friendly field (that has intact local DAR,) but it's not global and it would be realistic.
4. get rid of the freaking sector bars completely.
5. keep the factories and HQ. Damage to HQ and factories would continue to have the same effect it does now, but with no global dar, no effect.
This would bring so many benefits:
a. Low-level sneak raids become possible. Man, everyone loves them, why isn't HTC listening to this? Not only are they fun, but low-level sneak raids give outnumbered sides a way to recover!
b. Loss of global dar is such a downer (given that your opponents have it) and can thwart your moves.
c. No dar is worse than night - folks loggout -- bad for business HTC.
d. No global dar would discourage massive furballs and would instantly give HTC a big network boost.
e. Did I mention low-level sneak raids? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKcurly
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IMO some of these points are very good ideas. I love the idea of low level raids without enemy knowing it is coming.
BgMAW
[This message has been edited by BigGun (edited 05-18-2001).]
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i was thinking the same thing...maybe after night rolls around, the dar range is shortened and have nightfighters w/ onboard dar (with a range of 20-25k) to make it a nightfighter haven. This could be a new area for HTC...i dont think there's any other WWII online sims w/ nightfighters and plane dar
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Thumbs Up
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Dar who needs it! I remember an evening not to long ago where the rooks were taking a beating. We were stuck up in the NW corner and the bish were rolling us up from the south.
Then they knocked out our Dar with a well executed HQ raid. A funny thing happened then. We all started working together, communicating where cons were and where we were going to attack next. Our Dar was down for 2 hours and we took 5 bases during that time. People were flying recon missions to find the cons and all in all it was a lot of fun. I say do away with in air Dar completly!
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Aces of America
Fly to Live, Live to fly
Do or Die
[This message has been edited by ElLobo (edited 05-18-2001).]
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Agree to all these points, and i'd like to add to the point on the ack:
IMO, field ack should me NUMEROUS but not MURDEROUS.
How many acks are there now on a small field? 12?
Put 20 X .303 cal, 5 X .50 cal and 1X40mm cal acks on the field. That way you wont have the annoying tendency of cowards diving from 20k to their ack the moment they lose alt advantage. dependency on AI should NOT be encouraged, no matter what. With mannable field ack guns in next version, I EXPECT lethality of field ack to decrease DRAMATICALLY.
Also, how to "alert" one country that a field is being attacked when things are not in dar (aka under 800ft agl) or by gv's? I'd say to have said field issue a "Warning: Field XX is under attack!" when a field receives damage and there is nothing showing on dot dar.
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Good thoughts but I see it slightly different.
-I'd like NO global dar at all. Not dots on local dar. Only sector bars.
-I'd like local dar's based on airfields and remote dish sites. 800 ft floor just enough range that they don't quite overlap so a careful raider might "thread the needle" if he's luck.
- maybe "slightly" smaller sectors.
I like being able to find the fights quickly and gauge activity levels in certain areas, but I don't like the idea that you see 4 dots ahead and from dar you can tell the 3 on the left are enemy and the one on the right is friendly before you are actually in id range. Bleh.
Also, if Auto Ack has not been "Activated" by enemy presence within a 5 min period it should go into stand down mode. There should be a 1 min spool up delay once it is "activated" agian before it can start spewing rounds. It'd be nice to have a chance to bounce unaware base defences after you carefullly terrain masked your approach.
$0.02,
Wab
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DAR takes away the whole aspect of 'hunting' for the enemy. You know where they are and it blows half the fun of the fight. It is a big mistake to have it in the game, even in the MA. I liked old WB's red and white arrows pointing to the nearest group of enemy and friendly planes. You still had to hunt for the enemy, you just had a general idea where they were.
ra
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Please see this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001247.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001247.html)
I think the author is a genius and his point of view goes well your ideas.
F.
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I agree, that being able to hit a single target and globally disable Radar for one side just sucks.
However, I do wan't inflight radar, and I do want a dar bar. I don't really need accurate dot radar, but I want to be able to tell the difference between vehicles and planes in a sector. I'd go with the current system of dots and bars (but modified so you can't drop it all by hitting HQ), modified so that the dots are not updated as often so they are much less accurate.
Curly, the only problem I have with what you said was that you, for some strange reason, want to surpress huge furballs. I'm perplexed. I WANT huge furballs. That's why I play a game that 200 folks can log into. That's what makes it better than games with smaller numbers of players for me. Seriously, why bother to play a game of this scope if I can't find the odd 35 player furball? That kind of thing is the reason I play this game. I can understand that you might not want to fly in that kind of environment, but that's no reason to take that away from those of us that enjoy it.
Lephturn
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You can only see 32 of em, so why would you need more?
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Leph sez: "Curly, the only problem I have with what you said was that you, for some strange reason, want to surpress huge furballs."
Leph, I like them too, but there is a major issue: Warping!
Suppose you are flying into a 30 plane furball. Then your client has to receive sufficient network traffic to accurately update the positions of each plane.
Of course, that's true for the other 30 planes too! Heh, it's enough to make a T1 weep.
I used to participate in a WW1 sim and when 60 planes or so were in the same area (I believe that's the right number, it might be smaller), it would saturate their T1.
This porked the entire arena!
I have no idea what the magic number for Aces High might be, but it's there! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKcurly
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While were at it... Why dont we just take off Enemy Icons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Curly, the only problem I have with what you said was that you, for some strange reason, want to surpress huge furballs. I'm perplexed. I WANT huge furballs. That's why I play a game that 200 folks can log into. That's what makes it better than games with smaller numbers of players for me. Seriously, why bother to play a game of this scope if I can't find the odd 35 player furball? That kind of thing is the reason I play this game. I can understand that you might not want to fly in that kind of environment, but that's no reason to take that away from those of us that enjoy it.
Lephturn
Leph, I agree that trying to dictate how someone spends their 30-bucks-a-month game time is a bad thing.
Just a couple of thoughts, though. You never see furballers in the MA saying "Please help us furball at A1!!!" Yet you always see players begging the furballers to come help with base defense and/or captures.
And then there are many times when your team is being constantly rolled up on one or two fronts, when your team is outnumbered drastically. And yet, the furballers turn totally deaf ears to the screams for help. IMO, this is why Rooks have been reset twice in 24 hours.
I've started furballing a bit on this map, because of all of the above. And it can be fun, no doubt. But for strat players, the real fun in this game is winning the reset through teamwork. Furballs are gameplay as individual effort.
I suppose that it boils down to a subscriber doing what is the most fun for them. When said subscriber stops having fun, HTC loses.
I'm reminded of John Dalmas' excellent series of sci-fi novels (The Regiment, The White Regiment, The Regiment's War). In this hypothetical future civilization, they have developed something called "The Philosophy of T'Sel", where all mankind's behavior is broken down into categories (Too lengthy to go into here. I highly recommend the series, though.). Five categories of human Activity and five categories of human Focus.
Furballers are engaged in War as Play (results unimportant), Strat players are engaged in War as Competition (war as a contest).
I don't think either side is playing the same game here. And while that does nothing to prevent the enjoyment of Aces High by furballers, it seriously effects the enjoyability of the game by Strat players.
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"I liked old WB's red and white arrows pointing to the nearest group of enemy and friendly planes."
They pointed the the LARGEST group of aircraft, not the closest.
So the arrows are worthless and you have to ignore them.
If you follow the arrows, you will be flying around the arena endlessly looking for fights.
You use the DAR in the tower BEFORE you take off. Plan your flight. You use your brain a little bit and think ahead. Once airborne, you use communication with your fellow country men who are on the ground to locate specific enemy aircraft positions and headings "if" needed.
Nobody stays in the tower assigned to DAR, there is just always somebody who had just landed or taking a break. Sometimes I will eat my lunch, chat, and just do DAR duty for fun.
O ya, and you look out the cockpit with your eyes scanning the skies for the enemy in a WWII fighter. What a concept! hehehe
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 05-19-2001).]
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I don't think either side is playing the same game here. And while that does nothing to prevent the enjoyment of Aces High by furballers, it seriously effects the enjoyability of the game by Strat players.
That's where you are wrong IMHO. Taking away any of the radar we have would affect the enjoyability of the game for those that like to furball. You can't enjoy a good fight if you can't find it. Heck, the entire strat system inhibits the fun the furball crowd can have. Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed. The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun. All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war. That's their decision, but it doesn't stop the strat-minded players from doing their thing. You are right, you always see strat players asking the furballers to play their way, and you don't see the furballers asking the strat players to play our way. That's the whole point, if we don't want to play that base taking game, it's our choice. Leave us alone about it. Don't try to re-design the game so we can't play how we want to just because you wish more folks would play your way. The very fact that more folks seem to be involved in the furball side tells me that there are more folks playing the game for pure "fun" type of play than there is the competitive way taking bases. It wouldn't be smart for HTC to limit it's most popular form of play now would it?
The problem is how do you minimize each type of player's impact on the other? The answer I supported before was some kind of small area that was not part of the strategic system. A "fighter town" or whatever you want to call it with one base from each side where the furballers can always find an aircraft and a fight quickly and easily. That way, both types of players would be able to do their thing without being a problem for the others.
Gadfly, there is no hard-set 32 plane limit in AH. Sure, at some point AH won't be able to display all the planes, but it isn't a hard number like it used to be in WB. In any case, I'm not talking about two large formations that clash... we're talking about a furball. You could have a 50 plane furball that never has more than about 25 all in visual range at once. You always have planes getting killed, diving out to escape, exiting to grab alt, and joining as the take off. It's a very large area overall, and not super concentrated enough to cause plane view limit problems. I've only ever seen view limitations be an issue in scenario setups where you have formations, in large furballs it's just never been an issue in my experience.
Curly, the bandwidth issue isn't THAT big of a deal. Don't forget, you only get updates to those planes within a certain range, and it's not until those planes get pretty close that the update speed increases. It minimizes the bandwidth problems for the clients. I was in a beautiful furball with about 40 planes participating the other night near A1. Now all 40 weren't in visual range at once, but at times there were 20 in icon range easy. Although one or two individuals were a bit warpy, there was no overall degradation in connection quality. It was a huge furball and it was a blast, warping was not a problem. In short, I've never seen a furball in the main arena large enough to cause problems on the server end. I've only ever seen it in the scenarios, and that was while there was also 100 folks plus in the main arena at the same time. You are proposing limiting furballs to avoid a problem that doesn't exist. There is no reason to do that. If HTC gets so many folks in the arena in huge furballs that it saturates their bandwidth on the server side, then they may have to upgrade their connection. As it is, I don't see the problem. Large furballs are rare enough, and they work just fine now, there is no reason to curtail them.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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Lephturn
Never have I disagreed with one player more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sometimes I utter a string of choice words for the furballers on Nit side (quietly of course). I'm not saying they ruin the strat game for us strat players, but the point you mentioned about us stratters ruining a good furball is... wow, I lack the words. I have lead several flights of bombers (always as scort), and destroyed the FHs at 4-5 forward enemy bases. Seeing the furball die down and then the bases being captured one by one, is just sooo rewarding. But the furballers never seem to have a problem finding a new spot to ply their trade.
On the other hand, when 15 nits - often half our forces - engage in a furball, stratting becomes very challenging, since cooperation is nearly nonexistent nit-side. So, while the furballers can find a new place, the strat game is nearly nonexistent.
But what the hey? We all pay our $30.
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2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing
(http://peterson.gm.is/img/darling_143.jpg)
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Leph, despite some of my more "colorful" comments on the country channel, I really don't want to force my way of playing Ace High onto you or any other so-called "furballer".
HTC has tried to make concessions to both camps, and I applaud them for it. However, that effort perfectly fits some pundit's definition of "compromise": a solution that leaves all parties equally pissed off. It certainly seems that the Strat players spend a lot more time pissed off than the furballers, though. Maybe we need group anger management classes, LOL.
I still believe we are playing two different games. The problem has been that there really isn't a persistent online game world out there designed for Strat players. Most of us believe (hope) that this is going to change, in the very near future, with the release of World War II Online.
I'll say this much, though... the key to enjoying AH as a Strat player is to find
other Strat players, get on RW and try not to fixate on "the big picture". Just have fun with your group.
I just watched an excellent movie, The Legend of Bagger Vance. Will Smith has a line in that movie that applies here: "Remember, it's just a game. It's meant to be played, not won."
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Darling,
When a group goes and dumps the FH's at 4-5 forward fields, it often leads to folks logging off. If you are not someone that wants to hunt buffs, often the situation is that you can't take off in a fighter anywhere close to the action. For those of us who fly with limited time often, that means we just got limited pretty severely. Sure, we may EVENTUALLY find someplace to fight, but that's the problem. Many folks don't have long periods of time to play this game (including myself) so finding a new furball is often not possible in the time we have. That's why it's frustrating to see the FH's going down just as the fun gets going.
The point is, 1/2 of your players furballing doesn't make playing the strat game impossible to play. You can still take off, bomb targets, take bases etc. Nobody is stopping you. You might not be as successful, but you can still do it. It's SUPPOSED to be challenging. The fact that you wish more people would play the game the way you do is irrelevent. Your still free to grab a buff or whatever and go bomb things. Those who just want to fight A2A against other fighters lose their options when the FH's go down. Although we can try and find another place to scrap, it often takes quite a while. For many of us, that time luxury just doesn't exist. I know that's often the case for me.
Degas,
Yes, we are playing two different games in the same arena. Yes, HTC has an arena that is a compromise... it has to be. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) While I don't think it's a perfect one, I believe it is pretty good. There are some things that might improve it IMO, but we'll see.
My point Degas, is that Strat players can always do that. The "furballers" just looking for a good A2A fight can do the same... however our fun gets stopped when the strat guys fly over and blow the FH's away. How would you guys like it if Jabo fighters went around porking BH's for miles around? Just as your group of strat players get geared up for a mission and get rolling... blam, no BH's on the front you were working. Go find another place.... um it's not that easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just trying to illustrate why I think some slight changes would help. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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I'll throw my 2 cents into this one... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The strat players don't just want to bomb things. If we did, we'd have no problem just bombing the hell out of bases/cities/factories yet leaving the FH's intact for the furballers. The strat players want to work together to take fields and advance the front for their country (or to stop an advance if being pushed.) It's a combined effort of buffs, 'scorts and transports. That's what the strat crowd is after, teamwork that leads to a visible, positive result, e.g. base captures or limiting the ability of your opponents. If a strat team is pushing to take a base, they HAVE to take down the FH at some point. Otherwise the troop 'sport won't make it, though on this map, M3's can sneak in sometimes.
Now, do we want to ruin furballers fun? No, we don't. In fact, furballers actually could benefit from strat missions. Usually, a mission to take a base generates good opposition during peak hours. Sometimes it takes 10+ friendly fighters to handle the nme fighters at the field.
In the few posts in this thread we've seen the extremes of both sides of this, via Leph and Darling. Perhaps a compromise can be reached here. If the objective for a strat team is limiting infiltration capabilites, taking out BHs, VHs and barracks does the trick. Enemies can't take bases without transports and troops. That way, Darling (with me on his wing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) can have the feeling of accomplishment in that his strike has effectively kept our bases on that front save from takeover, and Leph and the furballers still are able to up from those bases. However, if the objective is a base takeover, the FH has to come down, and possibly the ones at the nearest fields too.
On a side note, I personally felt like the Islands map was more conducive to both playstyles at once, as the bases are spread out and use the whole map, not just the outer edges as the current one does.
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My quick 2 cents on this very lively, and cordial, discussion...
I'm a strat guy and have enjoyed the times I've had escorts like Darling ride me into a hot area in need off bombing. I do not understand why the furballers would be upset being asked to plow a path for the bombers? If you guys are upset the cons will go away once the Fighter Hangars go, well, hang in there while we cap the base and move...I mean, I've seen some extraordinary battles where Ripsnort has managed to lure in the best of furballers and strat guys to win a field. So, I can safely say I've seen the stratballers approach work. And I savor the times it happens.
Example: Bish did a raid on A18. They asked me to fly up ahead in an Arado (love how they volunteer MY perk points! LOL) and knock out the radar, so I did...not far behind me were our fighter guys, clearing my six and knocking down the bad guys. While that war was being waged, the bombers made it in, knocked out hangars. Two (or 3?) C47s and escorts made it to the field and 18 was ours. Wow, what a rush. And I'm sure many of you can echo experiences like this.
My $0.02.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
You can't enjoy a good fight if you can't find it.
Amen!
Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed.
Oh the humanity!
The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun. All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war.
And don't forget listening to the self-appointed strat geniuses telling us where we should be fighting over and over and over again!
You are right, you always see strat players asking the furballers to play their way, and you don't see the furballers asking the strat players to play our way. That's the whole point, if we don't want to play that base taking game, it's our choice. Leave us alone about it.
Yes, please!!! I'm new to AH, but the whole base-taking vs furballing thing is exactly the same in AW. If you want to take a base, then by all means do it and best of luck to you. But please don't "yell" at me or anyone else telling us we need to stop whatever we are doing to follow your agenda.
Realizing that my rant is a little off-topic, I will say that I could live with a reduction in the accuracy of in-flight dar, but the reality is the location of the fight often changes significantly while you are trying to get there and, without some means to check while in-flight, there is a good chance you won't find it. Just my $.02
HaMmeR
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Good points all.
I have to agree with Leph on this one.
I love the furballing and hate it when strat guys end the fun.
I do believe that the strat guys should be able to play the game how they like.. and same goes for the furballers.
Typically when I log in I fly lone-wolf stuff and look for A2A fights. When I log on and participate in my squad nights.. we usually take fields.
All is fun and each person should be able to play it how they see fit.
I totally object to the strat guys that 'yell' to the rest of the country about needing help.. or you should do this or that..
have fun your own way and let me have fun my way..
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Originally posted by Wlfgng:
I totally object to the strat guys that 'yell' to the rest of the country about needing help.. or you should do this or that..
have fun your own way and let me have fun my way..
As long as the person is asking for the help, I see nothing wrong with it. If they are "ordering" you to help it's another story. It's not like the strat guys know exactly who wants to participate in strat, so Ch. 2 is the best place to ask for that help.
If someone is directly asking you to help, just tell them you're not interested in that aspect of gameplay and maybe they'll leave you alone. Asking for people to not cry for help, and you're killing gameplay for those of us that do want to help. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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As it is now, the game is built around field capture. So the "strat" guys are playing the game the way it was intended to be played. (If it was intended to be a furball game, the FH's couldn't be destroyed.) So, it's not entirely unreasonable for the strat guys to <cough> request the assistance of other players to accomplish the goal of the game.
There really needs to be a Furball Island, or Fighter Town, where the furball crowd can go to ignore the field capture game, and play the game they want to play.
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 05-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by popeye:
There really needs to be a Furball Island, or Fighter Town, where the furball crowd can go to ignore the field capture game, and play the game they want to play.
How would that be different than going to the DA and/or the TA? (other than not having to go to a different arena)
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<S> all comments, i agree that sector bars need to go. I really like the idea of have remote Dar stations (but again at a level of 500ft AGL. the comment about the ack needing a minute to spool up is a good idea but to long of a time, maybe 20sec, u can get a good run in on that,
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(http://null.dk/~ssl/483/beachs.gif)
[This message has been edited by Beach (edited 05-21-2001).]
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AKA:Wren-From what I have experienced furballs tend to be very lopsided and favor one side that sends out a mess of planes. I consider it more fun to be 1 on 1 where I can try different ACM's against an opponent than just fly into a bunch of AC. The end result is usually getting shot down and learning nothing except to stay out of bunches of AC. One of the weaknesses I have seen in play is that folks rely on the radar too much and react to the dots, rather than posting a few fighters over a base at 15k to relay info and intercept raiders. On the other hand the dar has saved me a few times from low 6 attacks when I saw the close red dot and of couse if there are few players in the MA then one tends to look for the dots to indicate where the next attack is taking place. If there was no inflight dar then there could be ground controllers if players would be willing to shift duty around so the control guys wouldn't get to bored etc.. This has worked in some of the special events. Turning the acks down at some bases really favors the offense but this may be compensated for by manned heavy guns coming up in the next version.
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My dos pesos:
Keep radar more or less the way it is now: Make it easier to take out local radar at bases, but bases only show enemy dots for people in the area of that base. Other wise it shows bars for folks elsewhere.
HQ only provides the strat bar info, and then only for areas not covered by base radar. And only at an alt of 5000 or more.
i.e. Field dar is accurate, but the info isn't relayed. HQ dar isn't accurate, but it covers a wide area and is relayed everywhere.
As for the whole strat / furball thing... Why not make a 'fightertown' furball arena?
3 bases per country (2 forward, 1 rear), small map, no buffs. Make all the bases large and disable troops. Or all GVs except Osties.
All furball action, baybee!
~Lemur
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You never want to try and separate into multiple arenas without enough people.
The whole point is to have all types of play styles accomodated in a single arena. Nobody wants to play the same way ALL the time, and most swap around what role they are playing frequently while online in the main. I often ask for help defending a base myself. I sometimes will hunt enemy buffs, or escort our own. Sometimes I have limited time, or I just feel like playing A2A or furballing. The main arena is supposed to be the whole ball of wax, and I should be able to switch roles whenever within the arena. It is meant to make all aspects of the game available, and it's meant to have large numbers of people online. Until HTC has more folks than they can handle in a single arena on a regular basis, it's just not smart to break up the player base into multiple arenas.
A separate arena is a hugely different thing than a small protected area within the main. Even the strat players would be better served this way with everybody in the main. If you pulled all the furballers out of the main, the "strat" arena would be pretty dead. That's just not the point of a main arena.
You know, I'm not even convinced of the necessity of a "fightertown" type arrangement, although I would like to see the effect of such a thing in the main. If radar is changed so dropping HQ didn't blind an entire country, and the fields were changed so that it's tougher to drop all the FH's (as seems to be the case in 1.07), I think things would be in pretty good shape.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-22-2001).]
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leph
"Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed. The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun. All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war. That's their decision, but it doesn't stop the strat-minded players from doing their thing. "
This statement says that if player A chooses to destroy a target with a bomber, that effects player B
But that if player A elects not to shoot down enemy interceptors over the target it does not effect player A
This cannot be true. Both are effecting the game of the other by their decisions.
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Pongo,
Whether the enemy interceptors are shot down or not is irrelevent. Those flying buffs can bring escorts, can fly more buffs, fly higher, whatever. The point is they can at least TRY, they have the freedom to launch in their chosen ride and do their best. When the FH's go down, those flying fighters can't even launch them. No options at all, other than find another place to fight. It's not that we'd be outnumbered, or that we would get shot down most likely. We don't have a choice.
If you are a strat player who is into base taking, it's up to you to provide cover for your buffs, CAP over fields, etc. Nothing the furball crowd does prevents you from taking bases. The only thing that can stop the strat players is for them not to have enough like minded players to accomplish their goals. That's not the fault of those who choose to play differently, and it doesn't PREVENT the strat players from doing their thing, just makes it more difficult.
The only way the two types of players would limit each other equally, is if the furball crowd had a good reason, almost a necessity, to destroy BH's wherever they went.
But, it's not a huge problem. Sometimes it can be, but the new field designs on the way will likely mitigate the problem to a degree. A small change in radar (so that dumping HQ doesn't totally remove it) and I think both types of players would live together in the main with a reasonable compromise.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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"the new field designs on the way will likely mitigate the problem to a degree. A small change in radar (so that dumping HQ doesn't totally remove it) and I think both types of players would live together in the main with a reasonable compromise."
I don't think so. The strat guys are STILL gonna need to shut down fighters to capture a field. Maybe it'll take more effort with the new layout, but that is still the goal, and the furball guys will get pissed when it happens.
There needs to be a place for furballs that doesn't figure in the strat game. A separate area in the MA, or a separate arena.
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Originally posted by popeye:
There needs to be a place for furballs that doesn't figure in the strat game. A separate area in the MA, or a separate arena.
Dueling Arena has an area setup for 3 country furballs.
-SW
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Hey Leph, if you started taking out BH's so the strat guys couldn't take out FH's, wouldn't that make you a strat guy then? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Just some lighthearted humor. Please don't embarrass me next time you run across me in the MA. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And in defense of Leph here, I don't think he is talking about bringing FH's down for a base takeover, he knows that's part of taking over a base. He's referring to taking down FHs when you don't have an immediate intent to take over that particular base.
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leph
"When the FH's go down, those flying fighters can't even launch them. No options at all, other than find another place to fight."
And how is the option to fight somewhere else signigigantly different the the option to bring escort?
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Pongo,
The difference is that you can't "find someplace else to fight" that easily much of the time. The difference is that the buff drivers have the option to participate in the fight, win or lose. The furballers don't have the option. All they can do is go away and find a different fight.
Heh, yeah Nifty, that's true. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yep, FH's need to come down for a base capture, and I can live with that. If they are difficult enough to bring down and I have a chance to prevent it, then I'm pretty happy. The manable acks and new FH placements may do it for me.
However, I still think popeye is basically right. To solve the problem, a separate area in the main that is not part of the strat system is needed. Then nobody needs to complain, because either type of player has an option all the time.
SeaWulfe, read what I wrote above about a separate arena. It won't work, that's not the point, AND it would be bad for the strat guys too. The main arena has to accomodate as many different play styles as possible and keep the numbers up. That's the point of the main.
IMHO of course.
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Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-23-2001).]
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
SeaWulfe, read what I wrote above about a separate arena. It won't work, that's not the point, AND it would be bad for the strat guys too. The main arena has to accomodate as many different play styles as possible and keep the numbers up. That's the point of the main.
WB has been around for close to 7 years with the same type of arena format.
In the beginning, fighters could spawn until the field was captured. But back in the day, we also had to land a single plane to capture the field.
Putting troops down is another thing. There's NO way to drop fuel to 0% to stop planes from taking off. When you have to drive or fly troops in they are sitting targets, it shouldn't take 15 guys to CAP a field so the drunks can run in to the tower.
Fact of the matter is that the game DOES cater to everyone. "furballs" are just an excuse, they are just as fluid as the front line is and you should know that if you've been around for a long time.
Eventually one side decides "Hey this ain't worth it" and the furball dies down and moves somewhere else. With or without the fighters being stopped from coming.
I'm not a strat guy, I'll lend a hand in capturing a base (strafing ack or hitting GVs or just keeping planes on the ground) and I like to dogfight.
Why is it I have no problems doing things the way I like as it is, but you guys that have proclaimed yourselves "furballers" can't grasp the concept?
You just move to a different field and look for a new fight. Or you start one. I've never logged off with a "well this night sucked" attitude.
The MA is a place for air combat and revolves around base capture to promote air combat and fierce fights.
If all you want to do is fly in circles playing "daisy chain" with a bunch of like minded individuals without concern that something might disrupt it... then it's quite obvious you are in the wrong arena.
It does appeal to all types, I fail to see how it doesn't.
Oh one thing that seperates me from you I guess Leph is that when I see a bomber coming to my field to knock down the FH I climb up to him and attack and kill him. You DO have a say in whether or not your FH get knocked down.. it's just up to YOU to respond to the threat.
9kills of B17Gs, 0 deaths.
5kills of Lanc, 1 death.
1kill of B26B, 1 death.
4kills of TBMs, 0 deaths.
-SW
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SeaWulfe, some of us don't like the strat game, or just get tired of it from time to time, and would like to be able to go somewhere that it doesn't have an affect us.
Personally, I'm mainly here for the scenarios and other historic events, although I also enjoy spending my time 'mindlessly furballing' when nothing else is going on. I also like the opportunity for some good practice whenever a scenario is close. I care nothing for the strat game.
It just seems *to me*, that I spend much too much time and effort figuring out what's going on, where the fight is, flying to the fight, then after I get there flying to where the fight has moved off to...
Most of the time I just want to get up and find a couple of good fights before I have to log off.
anRky
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SW,
First of all, I often go after the incoming Buff, and at the very least I'll call it out to those who can intercept. Even with an F6F5, which is far from the best choice for buff hunting. Of course, if the buff is at 20k and I just rolled, I'm never going to stop him... sometimes that's just the way it goes. Out of only about 50 kills so far this tour, I've taken out 2 B17's, 2 TBM's, a B26, and 3 C47's. I've assisted on a few, and been downed a couple times by buffs, both times because I was attacking from a bad position because I was trying to stop him. I don't have a problem with any of that. I'm not looking for that to change.
Agreed the FH's need to come down to take a field. I've no problem with that either. The changes in 1.07 will make it a bit tougher to take down the FH's alone, and that will make it a bit more of a fight for both sides... a good deal IMO.
The big problem comes when one side is being pounded, and their options are very limited. Or when there are not a whole lot of people online, and there really isn't much of a fight anywhere but where the captures are taking place. Another thread about this started because one fellow logged on to find his side down to 3 bases and all the FH's down. Now THAT sucks. That's not good for the game.
But lets get back to the point I was making. I was explaining why separate arenas were bad, and why that's not a valid option IMO. I don't disagree with much of the rest that you wrote, and I do agree that the main does a pretty good job of catering to different types of play. I don't know who you are argueing with here for most of the post honestly. I agree completely with a lot of what you said, but I don't see how any of it precludesa "fighter town" type of arrangement.
There is a potential benefit to a "fighter town" arangement within the MA. Folks always have someplace to fly from is the big one. Also, folks would be less likely to just log when they are getting pounded. More folks staying online is better, I think you'd agree. It's an increased chance for a spirited defense or a charge to reclaim territory.
What I'm missing is what the problem is with trying something like a "fighter town" in the main. I fail to see how it would have a negative impact on the arena. I think there are potential positive results from it, so I keep bringing it up. Please, explain to me how a "fighter town" setup would hurt the MA as you see it. I'm open minded on this, so maybe there is something I'm overlooking.
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Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-23-2001).]
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hmm, I've never had problems finding out where the big fights (save for when I log in and the DAR is already down. Then I have to ask.) The past couple of times I've logged in, I've only had time for a few sorties, so I just upped where the big furball was, and was thankful my mates were there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Leph, maybe I'm just not grasping the concept properly. What is the difference in having an area in the MA that's "strat free" and the Dueling arena? The only difference that I see is that in the Fighter Town concept, you get to hear and see what the Strat guys are doing. To me it doesn't matter what the population of the main arena looks like in the log in screen if when you get in the arena, things are segregated. Actually, I do see the difference. It just makes it easier for you to switch between the strat free area, as you just can fly there or switch to the base without leaving the arena.
My point is that a separate area inside the Main Arena would have the same effect as if furballers went to the Duelling or Training arenas. It would just aid those who want to switch playstyles often.
Now to make another point, I DO agree with you that we need to keep the MA numbers up, but the styles need to co-exist, not be segregated. The original point of this thread would help that. Losing DAR do to HQ bombings kills furballers ability to easily find the big fight. Having at least the sector counter bars remain near friendly bases would help out immensely if the furball was to shift to another location.
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I didn't say you have to participate in anything, but I certainly AM saying that you shouldn't allowed an arena within an arena to wander off to when HTC already built an arena WITH a FURBALL AREA within it. It gets used on Monday nights, most of the other time it goes unused.
So how's this. Instead of choosing the easy route of just logging off and coming here to piss n moan that you are outnumbered, out gunned, whatever.. you get a group of people that are also logging off because they are disguisted and hop yourselves right on over to the Dueling Arena and make use of that furball area.
Seems so simple to me...
-SW
ps: If you say that furballing improves your skills I'm going to have a hernia from laughing. The only thing furballing does is teach you a little better SA and how to daisy chain.. those are something I can do with my eyes closed.
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
The big problem comes when one side is being pounded, and their options are very limited. Or when there are not a whole lot of people online, and there really isn't much of a fight anywhere but where the captures are taking place. Another thread about this started because one fellow logged on to find his side down to 3 bases and all the FH's down. Now THAT sucks. That's not good for the game.
I was online that night when this occured. I left around 11:00PM Eastern Time (they had 4 fields... atleast 2 were active) when I logged off to watch the Simpsons (yes at 11PM)... I read his message, logged back in at 11:45PM. The reset had occured. There couldn't of been more than 15 or 20 minutes where they simply couldn't take off because the radar bars were gigantic among those 4 fields when I was still there.
Anyways, this fighter town thing idea I don't like it because lets say there are 115 people online. Normal around 6PM Eastern.
Lets say 50 of them go to fighter town, leaving 65 people spread out on a very large map. Have you been online when there's 65 people? Good lord geezus almighty you can't find a damn thing unless 2 countries are pounding 1 trying to take a field.
Essentially I feel that a fighter town will reduce targets arena wide... so you don't really "fix" anything... you just, in fact, make it worse by further dilluting targets. Then you get one area for all 3 to congregate en masse and play daisy chains.
There are much better ways to make people want to keep teams even... hell one would be to simply have one squadron start up a webpage where the sqaudrons that rotate sign up for and place their order of rotation so that there aren't 2 huge squads on the same side at the same time.
Of course this requires end user effort, and we all know how far that goes.
-SW
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IMHO,
Let's play with Icons and DAR off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nomde
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://nomdegurre.tripod.com/signature.jpg)
"God loves the 56th cause we keep Heaven filled"
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Nifty,
There is a huge difference between having a Dueling Arena and a small "strat free" area in the main. You nailed it, it's easier to switch between the sheltered area and the strat part, and you can see/hear what's going on. If they are still in the arena and there is somewhere to fly, those folks in the "fighter town" area will start to join in the rest of the main when they can I'd bet. I know I would. We need it so that when things get really nasty, folks don't log out. It's pretty much irrelevent if they leave for another arena or just log off, it's bad when the leave the MA and THAT is why a separate arena is a bad idea. IMHO.
I agree about the HQ killing all dar thing too. If we can get that changed, get the new field layouts in 1.07, and maybe get some incentive perk wise to the heavily disadvantage side, this might be a much more rare problem. However, I like the idea of something in the main that will mean folks can ALLWAYS grab their favourite fighter and have a go, regardless of the condition of the arena. What if a newby just downloaded AH, logged in to the main for the first time, and happened to join the country that is getting pounded? Wouldn't it make sense that base 1-2-3 (first one you pop up at for each country) were always good to launch from? Existing customers have a place to fly from in extreme circumstances, and new ones can always launch their first sortie.
SeaWulfe,
You can say what you think people should do when the going gets tough, but that doesn't make it happen. The fact is that right now people DON'T do what you describe. A few might, but the majority just log in disgust. Telling the few folks on the BBS what we should do instead isn't going to change that fact. The fact that the DA doesn't get used in these times, just proves my point, that a separate arena won't work.
Where did that "furballing improves your skills" comment come from? We all use the word "furball" a bit to liberally, but I'm certainly not looking for a furball in your narrow description of it. I'm talking about a large in numbers and area air battle that is quite spread out and diverse. One where I can likely choose my type of fight, and even my enemy to some degree. Still, any air combat experience improves my skills more than logging off does. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think you are over-estimating how many folks would use a fighter-town type of arrangement, and under-estimating the affect the situation has on the arena the way things are. That is, I say that people log out or switch sides now, and that's bad. I say that anything that keeps them from leaving the main arena is a good thing, and can't have any more negative impact than folks logging off.
Now you lose me with the last bit. What do you mean that you are "further dilluting the targets"? I'm saying that folks should have someplace to go if their country is shut down. Currently, they seem to either log off or switch sides. I fail to see how having a "fighter town" area would make that any worse. Sure, some of the pilots from the other teams would go to "fighter town" as well I'm sure, but your attack forces will likely be reduced only slighty, as would the defending forces be reduced. I'd call that a draw.
So, as we have it now, in the situation mentioned above and our experience tells us that people either log out or switch sides... but mostly log out. If they leave for another arena, it's the same as them logging out, since the main still gets smaller... but evidence shows they won't go to the DA but will just bail. I say that keeping these folks in the main by some means such as fighter town can only help. If they are still in the arena, I say they'll be much more likely to jump in on a defense when some options become available and lead to a much better fight.
Basically... we have a duelling arena. That didn't work. Why not try a "fighter town" type of arrangement? If such an area would be as popular as you estimated (50% of the arena), it would be a smart move for HTC to try it. The only reason I heard not to try it was that it might be TOO popular. You can always limit that strat-free zone in various ways to control it's popularity.
Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-24-2001).]
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Someone else said that furballing improves your skill, was not directed at you Leph.
Okay, so you have an FT setup in the MA. Fields open 24/7. Normal day, 80 people online (not prime time).
No one side is losing, but rather than just dogfight in the middle of a virtual war they want to go to some place just to fly circles and daisy chain one another. Lets say 30 people go there because it's just "easier" to find a fight.
When we had the map with the center islands, you'd regularly see 1/3 to 1/2 your country there when you are down to your mainland and a few bordering islands. That's far from losing and you can still up from behind the lines. Instead, HQ, cities and factories are now getting hit because rather than these guys fighting on the front line... they are LITERALLY fighting in another world (read: arena).
You are thereby dilluting the overall population of the main arena. Sure, it READS 80 people in there... but only 50 you can fight if you don't want to sit in fighter town.
I furball/dogfight/whatever all the time, but I like doing it over a target we plan on attacking or capturing. I'm not playing the strat game, I'm helping out the strat guys and having my fun doing it.
My point is: I see absolutely no reason to add a fighter town other than to make it easier for someone to just log on, take off and already be in the middle of a fight. You can do that as is already, find a field under attack or that you are attacking.
I have limited time to fly, if I don't see anything on the map that I can fly to in reasonable time I log off or go into H2H for a few quick fights.
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As always, I'll try to come up with a way to combine the best arguments/ideas from both sides of the coin and come up with a solution, so hwere goes!!!
Leph has very good arguments about the need for a "fighter town" and I think SW has good arguments that the "town" would be overused when it shouldn't be used. So why not compromise? Leph is saying that the fighter town would be used when you just couldn't up from anywhere else (at least from what I'm gathering.) Well, why not allow the fighter town, but have it available ONLY when it's truly needed (e.g. all FH's are down at remaining fields.) How could this be accomplished? One way is to add a FH and runway strip at the HQ that's only uppable in certain situations (all FH down, 95% FH down, whatever.) This FH would never be destroyable, but only be active if the appropriate condition would be met. Since usually the last few fields left for your country are near your HQ, the HQ is a good choice for the "Fighter Town."
Of course, location of the "FT" could be somewhere other than the HQ, but I think the premise behind this caters to both arguments. You'll always have a place to up from if things get bad, and on the other side of the coin, it doesn't create an arena inside the arena.
As for the persistant fighter town arena within the arena concept, the only way I see that working is to have each of the 3 countries have one invulnerable base each in the middle of our maps, e.g. move the little islands in the big Uterus lake closer together for this map. Perfect arena inside the arena.
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I do see your point SeaWulfe, and I agree the danger of it becoming too popular is the only negative I see to doing it.
Nifty has the right idea. The key is to limit Fighter Town in such a way that it's not too popular. How could we do that? I'll go with no drops, no ordinance, 25% - 50% gas max, maybe even no vehicles... but we might need to be able to launch them too.. dunno. I think the number of people who would furball in that enviroment would be minimal. I know I enjoy the same type of fighting you do SW... and I'd only use a "fighter town" if my other option was to log off. I think if you limited it to say, maximum 25% gas and spaced the fields just right, it's use would be minimal most of the time. I really don't think there are that many people that like to "play daisy chain" as you put it. I think there are more like me that want a good A2A battle, but if they can't get that because of arena conditions, want an option other than logging off.
Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-25-2001).]
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Lephturn:
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I do see your point SeaWulfe, and I agree the danger of it becoming too popular is the only negative I see to doing it.
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On the contrary, if it has the potential of becoming 'too popular', then that's the perfect reason to do it. Why not give customers what they want and increase arena population? (Personally, I think the risk of it becoming excessively popular is quite low.)
anRky
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Leph, just to clarify.. (I think you may already understand what I mean, but I'm just going to reiterate what you may already know)
A daisy chain is a string of friendly and enemy aircraft all trying to shoot down the target in front of them. (Like, friendly being chased by 2 enemies being chased by 1 friendly being chased by 1 enemy being chased by 2 more friendlies etc..)
Those are pretty common in furball areas, I use to come across those in early WB.. I called it the "Skittles handsomehunk Line" You'd see frogs, perkles and urine stains chasing each other around... I'd dive in and clean up a few of 'em...
Anyways, I'm very wary of putting an arena inside of an arena (like Dejavu) because it might take away from the intended action of that arena.
-SW
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lep.. in all the years of listening to you I have never agreed with you more on so many points. U have nailed it IMO.
The only point i may not totally agree on is the figher town concept. I have in the past and still do, think it is an "ok" comprimise. I also like, for a longer term solution... the "area" arena with early, mid an late areas. I believe that things would sort themselves out with choice.
sea... I believe you when you say that you can find the kind of fight you want. why shouldn't I? but.. You spend a lot more time than most on line and... You definitly have a different mindset on how the game should be played and what is action enough than I do. I agree with lep that people are only going to do what is fun for them and when that is not an option or simply WAY to much trouble... they log. The very nature of the individulaist makes your assertion that we organize a furball... ludicrous and naive. Your, or my, force of will is not enough and shouldn't be. I would prove my assertion by asking you to personally... figure out that point that the game is getting not fun and then use your force of will to create a different situation that would make every single individual stay and participate in your idea. I certainly do not find the least bit of fun in capping a field at 15K to get a shot at the ridiculous bombers so that they can't drop all the FH's. Any time i fly more than a sector and find no action (watch the bar decrease to zip while I drone on over) then I am pissed. If I burn 3/4 of a tank of fuel in a futile attempt to find a fite I am pissed. If my only fites are fiting over scraps or being gangbanged or fighting buffs or vehicles... I log.
lazs