Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: YUCCA on October 14, 2003, 11:58:06 PM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=558&e=1&u=/ap/20031015/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance
Cheese anyone?
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That was an extraordinarily brave thing for Scalia to do, and I think it confirms his character and judgement. Where's the cheese?
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I think the reference to God should be corrected to what it should've said all along:
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and toothy republics
for which it stands
One nation
Under all
with Liberty and just for squirrels.
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If a communists lives in the U.S. and doesn't like the Republic for which it stands, can said communists sue to have the country changed to a communistic state?
If not, then why are we letting people sue to change things that this country was founded upon?
And if you might wonder: Yes, I support the Boy Scouts for not letting both aetheists and homosexuals into the Boy Scouts. Those are not principles that the Boy Scouts were founded upon. I wasn't in the Boy Scouts btw.
Furthermore, if I was a Satanists and joined a Christian church, could I sue to have all the references to God removed or replaced with Satan?
Freaking amazing what our country is being reduced to. Perhaps we need a good war to make people focus on the important, less trivialized things in life.
Bleeh
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the pledge of allegiance was changed in the 50s. We should change it back to what it was.
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It's real simple, keep God in there, who said they had to say God?
For crying out loud, I stand and have to listen people do there pledge to the so called "Christian Flag", and then the Bible..
I don't even mumble the words, a silent protest is all I need to do..
And well, noone's forced me to say it...
I don't see anywhere that is says we are forced to say the pledge with Under God in it, next thing is people suing for there kids hearing the word God on TV..:rolleyes:
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We just dont want to see this country turned into a fudamentalist/terrorist state like iran or saudi arabia. Someone dropped the ball and let a nutjob sneak undergod into the pledge in the 50s, all they are doing now is trying to correct that mistake. Because this country isnt under one god, its under many Gods based on what an idividual believes.
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>>If not, then why are we letting people sue to change things that this country was founded upon?
I agree...
That's exactly what people are doing because "Under God" was not in the original pledge of allegiance.
And while we are at it... bring back only land owners can vote, and count every 5 black males as 1 person for the purpose of determining state representation, take away women's rights to vote...
Oh so much work to do... over 200 years of progress... let's go back to the founding principles... yes back to those moral principles that allowed white men to own black me, and white men to subjugate women and children... back to the good graces of a wholesome, puritan, and Christian God.
Back to the days of Salem when adultry was punishable by branding.
Those are were the principles this country was founded upon.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
the pledge of allegiance was changed in the 50s. We should change it back to what it was.
Good point.
I found this and thought it interesting:
(Francis Bellamy's) original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
...
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
-- from http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
This was also right about the time that Senator Joe McCarthy was at the peak of his Communist witchhunt. Times have changed. Perhaps its time to remove "under God" and insert "equality".
That's the way Mr. Bellamy would've wanted it.
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amazin - the tards the freedom of this country has produced
wtg frogman - u & ur kind will save us from becoming IraqII !:rolleyes:
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I never understood the utility of forcing kids to recite that pledge every day. Reminds me of some kind of Hitler Youth or Komsomol brainwashing.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I never understood the utility of forcing kids to recite that pledge every day. Reminds me of some kind of Hitler Youth or Komsomol brainwashing.
Me too. Nothing wrong with the pledge, but forcing children to recite it every day zombie-like is kinda... creepy
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
We just dont want to see this country turned into a fudamentalist/terrorist state like iran or saudi arabia. Someone dropped the ball and let a nutjob sneak undergod into the pledge in the 50s, all they are doing now is trying to correct that mistake. Because this country isnt under one god, its under many Gods based on what an idividual believes.
Wrong....the US was founded on the God of the Bible...folks move in and believe in other god's, that 's fine, it's a free country. They don't like the pledge, they are FREE not to say it.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I never understood the utility of forcing kids to recite that pledge every day. Reminds me of some kind of Hitler Youth or Komsomol brainwashing.
Bingo. Its a common bond meant to make us all great, patriotic Americans. Its teaches us to think like a common society united under common ideals.
Kinda like reciting "this is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine" every night before the drill sergeant calls lights out.
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Its a pledge to the country, why did it have to also be converted into a pledge to a specific deity?
I dont get it.
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Originally posted by Animal
I dont get it.
what's new
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Originally posted by Animal
Its a pledge to the country, why did it have to also be converted into a pledge to a specific deity?
I dont get it.
I don't know either Animal. As a Christian man, it should be about the walk and not the talk. Personally, I could care less about the pledge...it's just the level at which some on this board hate to see anything with God's name involved or that get bent out of shape about porn being choked, but not something harmless like the pledge.
It's a crazy world....men's hearts are hardening towards wholesome principles and each other....it's only a matter of time before we bring about our own demise.
This is one reason I believe as I do....the Bible says that The Lord will return and establish his Goverment on this earth and bring judgement....it's no suprise to me that we will have failed to govern ourselves...the evidence against us is overwhelming.
Now, what that day will be like I have no clue.....it's simply what I believe in my heart as truth.:)
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Originally posted by gofaster
Kinda like reciting "this is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine" every night before the drill sergeant calls lights out.
Hmm...that's not the same "this is my rifle" recitation I was taught at Parris Island!
;)
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>>the tards the freedom of this country has produced
Is that the best arguement you got Eagle? Calling someone a name. Yah that IS pretty retarded of YOU. Can't even spell the word can you.
>>the US was founded on the God of the Bible
Actually... no it wasn't.
The majority of the founders were Christian, and they believed in a Christian God... but they also believed that State and Church were separate enties with separate purposes.
A man's church and beliefs attends to his spirit, and the government attends to laws, common good, justice, and defense.
The framers of the constition saw these purpose as distinct and separate, and that is why they crafted constitution to deliberately separates church and state. They also did not want the same church based government that was existant in Europe, which established one belief system and persecuted all others.
This country is founded upon the US Constitution - NOT the Christian bible.
And also remember at that time these so called Christians also thought it was perfectly acceptable to enslave men and considered the status of women as just a little high than property and little lower than a good field horse.
Oh yah let's bring back those Good Ol' moral Christian principles - just like our Founding Fathers had.
Remember most of them were smugglers (Hancock), slave owners (nearly all), land speculators (Washington), brothel owners (Franklin), crooks (nealry all), vandels (nearly all), and they all were rebels (all).
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The pledge is a retarded thing to force kids to say, regardless of the God bit.
If people are going to whine about the God bit, it's just another good reason to scrap the whole thing.
Anyways, if you guys were real conservatives, you'd stop worrying about this little pledge and focus on the fact that the pledge is taking place in an enormous public education system, a socialist monstrosity which has been constructed right under your noses.
Remember the one about the frog and the pot? How's the water feel?
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"forcing the kids to say"
hmm, they standing there with cattle prods shocking the little spleeves when they refuse to recite it?
they can't even get them to sit still & shut up in class let alone say a pledge
this isn't about the kids, it is about the RETARDED adults out there
I was "forced to pray" in Catholic school - the HORROR of it all!! If I didn't feel like it, I mumbled the words just like the rest of the kids did then and I am sure they still do today..
Strike one up for the Atheists!
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OK replace "force" with "induce". Whatever floats your boat. It has zero utility, and if people are going to whine about it, IMHO it's better to scrap it instead of wasting time and money fiddlyfarting around about it.
BTW Catholic school is privately funded and operated and has no relevance to this discussion.
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I see now ...
it's all about "MindControl" ... LOL
it's worked so well on the present batch of "induced" adults :)
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Eagler: when they refuse to recite it?
According to our laws, children are not capable of either givinng concent or refusing whatever the adults in charge demand of them.
So you can't say it's a child's responcibility to refuse the pledge that the figure of authority administers - no more than it's a child's responcibility to refuse sex.
Next thing you will say is that children can refuse some classes or consent to sex with adults.
It's parents (and government) who decide how children are raised and if you have problem going to a Catholic school, take it with your parents.
A parent sends a kid to school and says "do what your teachers tell you". A parent cannot withdraw funding from a school that violates Constitution.
A child is not born with critical thinking required to make this kind of decisions and it is one of the school responcibilities to teach that.
How the heck is the child supposed to reject the Plege based on its unconstitutionality if he gets to recite the plege at from 5 years old but only gets to read the text of the Constitution, let alone study the underlying philosophy, when he is a teenager?
FUNKED1: OK replace "force" with "induce". Whatever floats your boat. It has zero utility,...
You are wrong here. It has great utility. State education works exactly as designed by its socialist creators (starting with Otto von Bismark) - using the fact that at young age children's brains are absorbing information without critical processing it creates peons for the state.
miko
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Eagler: it's worked so well on the present batch of "induced" adults :)
Riiiight.... The same people who rose to be slaughtered in droves and even begged the french into defeating british for them because of 3% taxes now think that 50% taxes is being "undertaxed". How did that happen?
miko
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Well if they take out "under God".. then they have to take out "witches stand"
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
>>the tards the freedom of this country has produced
Is that the best arguement you got Eagle? Calling someone a name. Yah that IS pretty retarded of YOU. Can't even spell the word can you.
>>the US was founded on the God of the Bible
Actually... no it wasn't.
The majority of the founders were Christian, and they believed in a Christian God... but they also believed that State and Church were separate enties with separate purposes.
A man's church and beliefs attends to his spirit, and the government attends to laws, common good, justice, and defense.
The framers of the constition saw these purpose as distinct and separate, and that is why they crafted constitution to deliberately separates church and state. They also did not want the same church based government that was existant in Europe, which established one belief system and persecuted all others.
This country is founded upon the US Constitution - NOT the Christian bible.
And also remember at that time these so called Christians also thought it was perfectly acceptable to enslave men and considered the status of women as just a little high than property and little lower than a good field horse.
Oh yah let's bring back those Good Ol' moral Christian principles - just like our Founding Fathers had.
Remember most of them were smugglers (Hancock), slave owners (nearly all), land speculators (Washington), brothel owners (Franklin), crooks (nealry all), vandels (nearly all), and they all were rebels (all).
The God of our founding fathers was that of the Bible.
Seperation of church and state does not exist in the US Constitiution, but in a letter.
Just what are you so fearful of? Do you believe christians today are in favor of slavery, smuggling, brothel owning, etc?
Which of the teachings of Jesus Christ are bad for our nation and it's people? Give me some examples.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Well if they take out "under God".. then they have to take out "witches stand"
LOL
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>>Seperation of church and state does not exist in the US Constitiution, but in a letter.
I'm talking with an intellectual giant here.
And which letter world that be? The letter "O"? For "O"riface... as in you have no clue and are talking out of your oriface?
The Supreme court doesn't rule on matters regarding "letters."
These learned justices - mostly appointed by conservative presidents.... rule on matters concerning the US Consititution.
Which has been interpretted over the last 200 years to expressly separate the roles of church and state.
As for the bible... what's that passage? "An eye for an eye", and the "wages of sin are death", and "Lot slept with his daughters and God was pleased, and blessed him with tribe of Moab"
Oh yah the bible is a very moral book, full of adultery, slavery, child molestation, vengence, greed, every sin imaginable - Yes, I want my children reading that pornagraphic and hate filled book.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
As for the bible... what's that passage? "An eye for an eye", and the "wages of sin are death", and "Lot slept with his daughters and God was pleased, and blessed him with tribe of Moab"
Oh yah the bible is a very moral book, full of adultery, slavery, child molestation, vengence, greed, every sin imaginable - Yes, I want my children reading that pornagraphic and hate filled book.
Bah, that's all old school God, full of rightous anger. Rude's talking about Jesus, God's nicer Son. You know, the guy who's like a hippy, but smells better?
-Sik
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Yeah, kids refusing to do what their teachers tell them to do, that's a good idea. Hell, I can just imagine the reaction had I told any of my grade school teachers I wasn't going to say the pledge. It would've been to the principal's office with a subsequent visit to the school by my mother (who would have smacked me upside the head and told me to respect God like a good Catholic, btw :)).
"Under God" wasn't in there to begin with, so take it out. If you feel the school should give kids time in the morning to pray, then fine. Have 10 minutes of quiet time for the kids to sit at their desks and do whatever the hell they want. Finish homework, read, pray, whatever. I couldn't care less if a kid wants to wear a cross around their neck, either. That's their choice and the school and their teachers shouldn't have anything to do with it. I also don't think school uniforms are a good idea, for much the same reasons.
I also don't have a problem with them reciting the pledge every morning without the Under God in it (hell, it really didn't bother me all that much with Under God in it, but now that it's been brought up as an issue...). I think trying to develop respect for one's nation is a good thing, particularly when you're still free to critisize it.
Those are my humble opinions, and just as valid and unimportant as the bible thumpers. I'm sorry some of you hold such spite for non-believers.
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Originally posted by Rude
The God of our founding fathers was that of the Bible.
Seperation of church and state does not exist in the US Constitiution, but in a letter.
Just what are you so fearful of? Do you believe christians today are in favor of slavery, smuggling, brothel owning, etc?
Which of the teachings of Jesus Christ are bad for our nation and it's people? Give me some examples.
1. Separation of church and state is too in the Constitution, unless you consider the Amendments a separate document. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Stating the phrase "under God" in an officially sanctioned way is a clear violation of the establishment clause.
2. The benevolence of the religion is not relevent.
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Under god or not, the pledge is trite and meaningless.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Under god or not, the pledge is trite and meaningless.
to most liberals, it is these days
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
>>Seperation of church and state does not exist in the US Constitiution, but in a letter.
I'm talking with an intellectual giant here.
And which letter world that be? The letter "O"? For "O"riface... as in you have no clue and are talking out of your oriface?
The Supreme court doesn't rule on matters regarding "letters."
These learned justices - mostly appointed by conservative presidents.... rule on matters concerning the US Consititution.
Which has been interpretted over the last 200 years to expressly separate the roles of church and state.
As for the bible... what's that passage? "An eye for an eye", and the "wages of sin are death", and "Lot slept with his daughters and God was pleased, and blessed him with tribe of Moab"
Oh yah the bible is a very moral book, full of adultery, slavery, child molestation, vengence, greed, every sin imaginable - Yes, I want my children reading that pornagraphic and hate filled book.
Try not to overreact in front of everyone...sheesh.
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Originally posted by SOB
Yeah, kids refusing to do what their teachers tell them to do, that's a good idea. Hell, I can just imagine the reaction had I told any of my grade school teachers I wasn't going to say the pledge. It would've been to the principal's office with a subsequent visit to the school by my mother (who would have smacked me upside the head and told me to respect God like a good Catholic, btw :)).
"Under God" wasn't in there to begin with, so take it out. If you feel the school should give kids time in the morning to pray, then fine. Have 10 minutes of quiet time for the kids to sit at their desks and do whatever the hell they want. Finish homework, read, pray, whatever. I couldn't care less if a kid wants to wear a cross around their neck, either. That's their choice and the school and their teachers shouldn't have anything to do with it. I also don't think school uniforms are a good idea, for much the same reasons.
I also don't have a problem with them reciting the pledge every morning without the Under God in it (hell, it really didn't bother me all that much with Under God in it, but now that it's been brought up as an issue...). I think trying to develop respect for one's nation is a good thing, particularly when you're still free to critisize it.
Those are my humble opinions, and just as valid and unimportant as the bible thumpers. I'm sorry some of you hold such spite for non-believers.
No spite here babe...I love ya man:) Now that Nexus dude.....
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Yeah yeah, now that you've got AH2, any spite you may have had has been wiped from your mind. Speaking of which, what in the hell were we just talking about? I've gotta go fly some more. My 'puter sucks butt, but it's still looking good.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
1. Separation of church and state is too in the Constitution, unless you consider the Amendments a separate document. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Stating the phrase "under God" in an officially sanctioned way is a clear violation of the establishment clause.
2. The benevolence of the religion is not relevent.
My point exactly MT....officially sanctioned doth not a law make...the last part might be relevant...you know, the free exercise part?:)
My original point was the words seperation of church and state are not found in the constitution...I'm too tired to find which letter, perhaps Adams...not really sure, it's been awhile.
Like I said before, I don't really care what they do. In my short life this country has changed alot...some of you may think for the better, I'm of the other school....what ever in the world could be wrong with honoring your country, your parents or your neighbors?
Some of you are kinda lost I suspect...you have all the answers, you just forgot what the questions were.
I hope to meet some of you someday...will be interesting to see how much you really have to say face to face.:)
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Originally posted by Rude
I hope to meet some of you someday...will be interesting to see how much you really have to say face to face.:)
Someday? There's a perfect opportunity this weekend. Get yer arse to Milpitas, CA!
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Nothing different from what I say here.
What makes you think those who disagree with you will be afraid to speak their mind to your face?
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Originally posted by Eagler
to most liberals, it is these days
Well... to this liberal, it pales in comparison to:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
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Christians are idiots - those who support the "Under God" in the pledge. It is in their interest most of all to keep the state away from religion. Whatever the state touches, it eventually controls.
Entrust them to administer to the children "the God of the Founding Fathers" and soon you will have bureaucrats telling you how you should worship. Your Christ will me multi-ethnik and sexually tolerant and the bible will be corrected according to the latest PC standards.
What, is your religion such a complete fraud that you don't believe anybody would fall for that crap unless the government shoves it down the small children's throats?
I see a lot of real christians - real ones, not frauds like most of you pro-pledge idiots. Those that actually live in Christ, have happy families and many children that are not screwed up. They would have nothing to do with the state or it's "education" system, they would even pay taxes assesed on them but not accept any scraps back from the state, nor interference.
And I am not talking just about amish or some low-tech denominations. Just about people taking their faith seriously and converting otehrs by power of example, not force.
miko
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I am wondering why these people can't find something better to do than to pick apart the pledge of allegiance. Im not sayin whether or not hte pledge is right or not just merely observing the whiners that our countries freedoms have produced.
I mean wow lets change our currency from "in god we trust." It's not like they're imposing christianity on people. I wish some people could just stop takin their liberties granted and find a cause "worthy of their efforts." FYI im an atheist. :)
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Might i ask how sayin god a few times is crammin a relegion down a childs throat. For christ sake i said the pledge for most of my childhood and im atheist.
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it isn't even about "under God" anymore
they want to do away with the allegence to the Flag, the symbol of this great Country to the rest of the world, altogether - why not? just another state sponsored mind control right?
heck, just skip to the "morning flag burn", that is where it is headed ...
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Who exactly is "they"?
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SOB, Miko and Animal
I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?
Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country. Would you expect any Middle East country to freely give up their Islamic religion throughout their government just because there are those who don't subscribe to that religion?
I guess next we should eliminate George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, etc from holidays, history books, conversation, and thoughts since they were Christains? We don't want to discriminate, now do we? All religions are equal and tolerated?
If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole. The removal of part of the tapestry that created this country is the unraveling of it. The founders asked for support from God (the Christain God)...get used to it.
If you don't like, believe or approve of the Christain God isn't the problem. It's the belief of the founders in this God that affords the freedom to us to choose our own religion. Even if you are of a different religion you should at least respect the religion that allows you a country that gives you the freedom to worship as you do (never mind all the other freedoms.)
I'm not an extremely religious person. I don't go to church. I don't read the bible every day. I certainly don't pray everyday. That being said, I do respect the fact that the U.S. was founded with the help of Christianity and support the rememberence of it in our country.
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.
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Originally posted by Drunky
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.
This veteran is one of those "spoiled children".
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Originally posted by Animal
Nothing different from what I say here.
What makes you think those who disagree with you will be afraid to speak their mind to your face?
Afraid? Wasn't considering that....was thinking of how intense discussions would be in person rather than what is lost in the translation on these boards.
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Originally posted by Drunky
SOB, Miko and Animal
snip...
If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole.
sniop...
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.
Those who fight to maintain a State religion are the ones who have forgotten the words of our founding fathers...
You have forgotten your history sir, or never knew it.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], ... ("Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797.
- This treaty was signed by John Adams BTW.
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? (James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance," addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785;
and they knew that the 'majority rule' was a dangerous thing when it came to individual freedoms...
Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents. (James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, October 17, 1788;
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Originally posted by Drunky
SOB, Miko and Animal
I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?
If you read my last post on the subject, which apparently you must have missed, you'd see that it doesn't upset me that much. I simply don't agree with it, and I'm expressing my opinion on the subject...a fact that I also made abundantly clear.
Originally posted by Drunky
Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country. Would you expect any Middle East country to freely give up their Islamic religion throughout their government just because there are those who don't subscribe to that religion?
No, I wouldn't expect or care what they do in their government. Of course, their government has nothing at all to do with the U.S. government or our constitution or our founding fathers. In other words, they aren't relevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by Drunky
I guess next we should eliminate George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, etc from holidays, history books, conversation, and thoughts since they were Christains? We don't want to discriminate, now do we? All religions are equal and tolerated?
If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole. The removal of part of the tapestry that created this country is the unraveling of it. The founders asked for support from God (the Christain God)...get used to it.
Are you drunk? What in the hell are you babbling about? You think we should stop teaching US history if we remove "Under God" from the pledge because some of it might have to do with religion or the people in it might be of a certain denomination? Seriously...are you drunk?
Denying a part of history, eh? How about the part of history where the pledge didn't have the words "Under God" in it. Are you saying it's OK to ignore that part of history? Well, I guess that's a rhetorical question, because you already stated it is OK to ignore that part of history. And really, ARE you drunk?...you think the U.S. government is going to crumble if we remove these two words from the pledge, that weren't originally there? How about this...if they felt we should follow God, the Christian one, why don't we just throw out the constitution all together and just use the bible as our law?
Originally posted by Drunky
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.
Why does the expression of my opinion upset you so much that you'd resort to calling me a "spoiled child"? Your entire post demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the ideals this country was founded on. The freedom to practice whatever religion you choose is alive and well. Why the government needs to support any or all of them is something you haven't managed to explain yet.
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I support the Pledge of Allegiance the way it is now. Don't see any need to change it because of a lawsuit. But it probably is best that the Supreme Court hear the case and settle the matter.
I attended a liberal arts college, and one of my friends was a liberal professor there. He claimed to be a card carrying member of the ACLU. One thing he said stuck in my mind when he was talking about Cuba. He wondered why Castro and the communist government was afraid to allow free and open expression of religion there. And he questioned why they were afraid of it.
Though he may have been somewhat religious (he was a recovered alcoholic), he was from the Dominican Republic and knowledgeable about Hispanic customs and thinking. He honestly couldn't understand the fuss, and seemingly fear, of acknowledging God in a civilized society. In his words, "What are they afraid of, to allow free expression, acknowledgement and worship of God?" It didn't make sense to him.
I majored in Spanish, and this was the best professor I had in that curriculum. LOL, he said he didn't support NPR or its local station, because they weren't liberal enough. :D
Les
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SOB,
Yes I was drunk. Very drunk. Didn't even remember making that post actually. But that is a typical night. Amazing I spelled everything right and my use of syntax was correct.
Anyway...looks like I managed to stir up a few people tho :aok
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Drunky: SOB, Miko and Animal
I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?
Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country...
I can't answer for others but there are two things that concern me.
First, being an atheist, I do not want my child to be religiously indoctrinated by the state before he develops the faculty of critical thinking. Yes, the plege is simplistic and brief - but so are children's minds. You would not be affected by it but a child may be. I saw plenty of such cases.
Second, as a supporter of religious judeo-christian society, I do not want the State to take over religion.
So I am not trying to deny the religious history of this country or make this country atheist - I am trying to preserve it. I am not trying to remove religion from this country - quite the opposite, I am trying to preserve it.
State takes over and destroys everything it tries to help - marriage, culture, drugs, retirement, economy, etc. You may be blind to the danger it poses to religion and attack my view as if I am against religion rather than for it. You are mistaken.
miko