Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on October 15, 2003, 07:27:16 PM
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Quite a few people here have very strong opinions based on only knowing the news and never do any real thinking or in-depth studying, relying on the authorities to know better.
Here is a realistic scenario for you to ponder.
You are on a busy street corner in a leisure district with your wife an child. There are restarurants and caffes all around you. You enter into a medium sized one and take a seat at the table.
Suddenly there is an explosion at a table across the room from you. When you regain your senses you see that about half a dozen people are lying down around the place where the explosion occured, apparently dead or badly hurt, with some competently-looking people tending to them. The windows are blown out, the place is a mess. The rest of the patrons are shaken and bleeding from supreficial cuts but not hurt otherwise and starting to pout out into the street, as well as people from other restaurants. There is commotion, some smoke, car alarms blaring on the street. Your family is shaken but unhurt. You grab your child. Their safety is your utmost concern. You have a cellphone or whatever else you usually carry with you.
Describe step by step in detail your actions for the next ten minutes or while you are within 300 yards from the spot. Helping wounded is out of the question. Everyhing else goes.
Try not to think longer than you would have in real situation like that.
Do not expain your actions, rather allow people to post their answers and please post explanations for your actions after 12 noon E.S.T., Thursday October 16
miko
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Personally, I would start flipping out and chopping off heads. If my sword breaks and I run out of shuriken, I would commit seppuku with a frisbee.
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i would move to a safer part of the cafe...then just wait for emergency response teams...
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I pull out my gold uzi and start shootin and throwing frag grenades with my good arm. When my four clips are out I, I yell ammo!
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I'd jump into the nearest telephone booth, don my cape and suit, then fly to terrorism land and put the smack down on Mr. Baddy.
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I'd whip it out and start smacking it, right there....I mean seriously would you interrupt a guy burping the bald man?
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Originally posted by Dnil
I'd whip it out and start smacking it, right there....I mean seriously would you interrupt a guy burping the bald man?
:rofl
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Oops correction:
I pull out my stoner65 and start shootin and throwing frag grenades with my good arm. When my drum runs out I, I yell ammo!
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Did I get my coffee yet?
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Does this cafe serve beer?
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Screw the check, I'm outta here.
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I'd walk out of the movie thinking, "Damn, Tarantino is DA MAN!!"
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Start filming and sell it to CNN.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Personally, I would start flipping out and chopping off heads. If my sword breaks and I run out of shuriken, I would commit seppuku with a frisbee.
I'm with this guy, Sign me up. Lets take em all on!
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If it was just me there, and I survived something like that, I'd try to get away from it as fast as I could. Probably wouldn't be able to run, due to bomb shock and possible injury.
With wife and kid(s) there, only option would be to stay to protect them, gather 'em in a huddle and lie on top of them. Or fight to the death protecting them. You don't think about things like this, you just do it.
Les
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I put on my robe and wizard hat...
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I rush out into the street and pull out a bunch of small round objects from my pocket.
I throw them at the terrorists and yell "Lightening Bolt Lightening Bolt Lightening Bolt"
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hmm a coffee shop huh.......
they must have sandwich's in there....right
grab a handfull of pork and throw it at em yelling IBLIS is coming.....IBLIS is coming......:rofl
those Muslims just love there pork and there friend IBLIS :eek:
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Run to the freezer, grab a keg give it to the wife and send her out. Grab a box or 2 of meat give to the kid tell him to run along home as well. Grab a frozen stick of pork, pull my uzi and run out into the city. Oops I need a cape. run back into restaurant grab a blood spattered table cloth tuck it into my shirt. Now run out into the city in search of justice. Look for the guys hopping up and down with there little green white and black flags saying "Hlulalalalalalalala" Empty the clip into them then send the survivors on the ir merry way to Allah by beating them about the head and shoulders with my frozen pork blunt weapon o doom.
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I would cower in the corner and wait for Miko to show up. As he healed the injured, and resurected the dead, I would give him as much information as I could about the situation, then watch as he adminstered instant justice on all those who were involved in planning and carrying out the attack. Once he was done with this, I would slide him a retainer to represent me in my coming lawsuite against the terrorists while sliding him another check for him to invests for me.
Once I have the settlement from the terrorists I'll buy a house in the Islands and live off the interest of my investments.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Spooky
I put on my robe and wizard hat...
DAMN YOU!!!!
AHAHAHHAHAHA!!!
Spooky, you beat me to it!
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I'll play.
First thing I'm gonna do is check over my wife and child for injuries. If all is well ...
Second thing, We are going to quickly walk out of the building via the least congested exit, and continue walking away until we are out at least several blocks away. During this time I will not use my cell phone.
I will then get my family to a hospital emergency room for a thorough examination.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I would cower in the corner and wait for Miko to show up. As he healed the injured, and resurected the dead, I would give him as much information as I could about the situation, then watch as he adminstered instant justice on all those who were involved in planning and carrying out the attack. Once he was done with this, I would slide him a retainer to represent me in my coming lawsuite against the terrorists while sliding him another check for him to invests for me.
Once I have the settlement from the terrorists I'll buy a house in the Islands and live off the interest of my investments.
-Sik
ROFL!!! Miko - this thread isnt going as planned, eh?
Ju r teh PWN3D! :lol
Personally... I'd get out my lightsaber...
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
ROFL!!! Miko - this thread isnt going as planned, eh?
Ju r teh PWN3D! :lol
Personally... I'd get out my lightsaber...
Actually, not that he cares, but I like Miko for the most part. I think his bedside manner could use some work, but I generally agree with him.
-Sik
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His posts are usually interesting, well thought out, and always thought provoking - even if you don't agree with him.
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:)
OK, gents.
We still have a few minutes till noon to lay a foundation for a constructive discussion.
All you joker guys are really funny. Nevertheless, if you think you know how to handle yourself in that situation, it would be your obligation as human beings and americans to share your insights with those of us who may be lacking in that knowlege.
I know for sure that public school does not teach the children where to run in case of an explosion, even though a child can grasp this simple concept at a much earlier age then he can judge constitutional questions.
If you are not sure how to behave, you may at least provide the material for discussion so that we could examine and discuss the correct or incorrect responces.
miko
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ok Miko :D
I'd probably get the wife and kid(s) under a table to avoid falling debris. I'd take a minute or two to assess the situation and look for a way out. Soon as I was satisfied there was no immediate threat I'd lead them out and as far away from that building as we could get.
Lotta variables here. Pretty tough to know what you'd do without being there.
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I know for sure that public school does not teach the children where to run in case of an explosion, even though a child can grasp this simple concept at a much earlier age then he can judge constitutional questions-Miko
Actually, my 2nd and 5th graders had "bad guy" drill yesterday, for a school attack. I am going to meet with the 5th grade teacher tonight to discuss this drill.
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I am a fully trained Ski Patroller. I would of course help with any of the seriously injured by stopping the bleeding. (Airway Breathing Circulation). I would be aware that terrorists quite often plant 2 bombs set to go off so that the second one gets the police and others who arrive to help so I would try to get my family out of harms way as well.
The logic process is this.
I see an accident. I assess the situation. Is there danger of further injury to myself or others? (yes may be a followup bomb) (yes the shrapnel from the bomb my be tainted with virus etc).
Remove your family from the danger of further injury by locateing them in a safe area. A safe area could be upstairs in a hotel or out a back door. Doing the obvious thing like walking out the front may be the worst thing to do if a car bomb is out there set to go 5 minutes later.
Assess the injured. Look for the most seriously injured first. Use ABC (Airway breathing Circulation) as your guide. Ie make sure they can breath and that they are not seriously bleeding. Do a quick once over the crowd and decide on the ones you can help. Use available resources by asking others if they can help you or if they have training. Get the ones that can help to assist based on their skill level and composure. Ie send the panicky guy to get help but keep the cool level headed guy to assist with the injured.
Oh yes and finally......
If one of the injured was French I would move on and go to the next injured person instead. :p
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Hmmm.... tough one....
I got it! :)
I'd try to get to the nearest computer and post the link to the story here, in order to beat the usual bots of the cut-n-paste crowd. ;)
Regards,
Badger
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OK, let's see and grade according to my 0-2 point system - which system of course expresses my purely personal views on the subject.
First the questions related to the utility of such discussion:
Leslie: You don't think about things like this, you just do it.
Wrong. We are humans, not animals. We do not live in a natural world for which we have evolved instincts. We face dangers and tasks for which we have no intuitive reaction built in by nature.
That is why humans engage in and benefit from training - even if it's only a mental exercise. We think when we have time - like now is the perfect time, actually - so that we act correctly without much thinking when the situation arises.
AKIron: Lotta variables here. Pretty tough to know what you'd do without being there.
Right. But what should you be looking for to make the decision when being there? What should you pay attention to? Who will teach you?
Now to answers/grades:
Leslie: I'd try to get away from it as fast as I could.
0 points
With wife and kid(s) there, only option would be to stay to protect them
1 point
vorticon: i would move to a safer part of the cafe...then just wait for emergency response teams...
1 point
crabofix: Start filming and sell it to CNN.
That's a valid choice. You did not specify what you would do about the survival of the people you care about, so no basis for the grade.
AKIron: I'd probably get the wife and kid(s) under a table to avoid falling debris. I'd take a minute or two to assess the situation and look for a way out.
1 point
Sikboy: I would cower in the corner and wait...
1 point
Gunthr: We are going to quickly walk out of the building via the least congested exit, and continue walking away until we are out at least several blocks away.
0 points
Habu: Remove your family from the danger of further injury by locateing them in a safe area.
...or out a back door. Doing the obvious thing like walking out the front may be the worst thing to do if a car bomb is out there...
2 points
Better then I expected. Now to the analysis.
The optimal technique for terrorists going for maximum human casualties in the simplest way possible is to detonate a small backpack charge that would cause a panic and flush a large crowd of people into the open, preferably restricted area. Then a massive charge, possibly a car bomb is detonated.
Car or a large bomb is hard to bring into a crowded public building and exploded outside without creating a target it will kill very few people.
So if there is an explosion inside or close to your restaurant that you happened to survive, you should immediately grab your family and run out back through the kitchen in the back of the premices - away from the main street where the crowd would pour out to from multiple spots. That is no matter if the way out front is open and the way inside is crowded or obstructed. Once out in the open on the back side of the building, you should move further - to the other side of the block from the main entrance, stop there to check for injuries and try proceed away from there.
If the way back is blocked or temporatily crowded, you should cover as far back as possible in the room, preferably behind a structural support.
You definitley do not want to come out into the killing ground to be blasted by the main explosion and you do not even want to take chances that the blast outside will destroy the rest of the place you are in, so you do not come out front and stay in only if the way back is blocked.
A correction to the Habu's great answer.
The conventional Western terrorists go out of their way not to hurt or injure civilians. That is why they warn about the bombs, detonate charges where/when few are likely to be hurt. They want publicity but do not want to appear as mass murderers and lose public sympathy.
They will always try to target policemen or other law-enforcement rather than civilians. That is why the second bomb is set to 5 minutes - time enough for the police/resque to arrive and for the civilians to clear the area.
The real terrorists will go for the maxumum death toll possible. The main charge will be detonated at the moment when the maximum crowd pours out to the street - most likely not set on timer but by remote control or manually by a suicidal bomber.
You cannot expect to have minutes to check for injuries or clear the area through the front.
Any thoughts?
Oh, yeah - that's exactly the way 200 people in Bali died and hundreds got injured. Small explosion to flush them out, massive explosion to kill them.
miko
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Miko, you describe a military tactic. I don't think we've seen a terrorist attack in Israel or anywhere else that used a small blast to funnel people into a kill zone and then employ a larger deadlier blast. At least as far as I know.
My concern was two fold. 1. A secondary explosion 2. the possibility that the restaurant blast was dispersing a bio/chem agent.
You must give me points for considering this, and for avoiding the exit used by the mob, and thus avoiding the killzone in your scenario. :D
hadn't heard about how the Bali blast happened... Interesting.
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Gunthr: Miko, you describe a military tactic. I don't think we've seen a terrorist attack in Israel or anywhere else that used a small blast to funnel people into a kill zone and then employ a larger deadlier blast.
Unfortunately it's not up to us what kind of attack we may experience.
And real explosive blasts that would cause real damage and disperse bio/chem agents at the same time are even less common than double blasts. We saw double tap in WTC, we saw double tap in Bali, we see double taps in european terrorist acts. Not a single act of explosive plus contaminating agent. Small bursting charge - maybe, what did they use in Tokyo?
If it's ony one bomb, you are certainly no worse off staying in the same place, unless it's on fire. Whenever the next blast attack or even chemical/bio assault is going to occur, it will not be in the same room as the first explosion, that's for sure.
The mob may be a big issue in the theater. In a restaurant the whole wall will become one big exit once the wndows are blown off and peple can leave quickly, Also the light will come from that side, day or night, while the inside may be dark and even smoking. So the street may look like the most attractive direction to run.
Following the mob is a very risky choice in any scenario - from explosion to investing, that's true.
miko
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Point well taken.
I agree its good to play "what if" ahead of time as its hard to think straight with blood coming out of your ears, deaf, maybe disoriented and injured.
I'll consider the double tap if I'm ever in that situation... as well as other factors ...
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Originally posted by miko2d
maybe, what did they use in Tokyo?
In Tokyo they did not use any explosives in the delivery.
-Sik
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>>Here is a realistic scenario for you to ponder.
No - Here is a hyperothetical scenario for you to ponder:
Hypothetically, then I would say I would drop my trousers and start lighting my farts.
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bugger you.
look for suckin chest wounds and arterial bleeding. second spine/neck injurys on down the list. if no wounds or help needed check self and haul ass. call cops in morning.
ohh and smack guy who tells me i cant tend wounded.
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Miko, I musta missed something......No, I'm sure I missed something. What, exactly, prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.
Slim03
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Gunthr is wrong, this actually happens regularily in Isreal. This is not a 'hypothetical' as in it might happen one day, it is a known and well used tactic.
In fact, the Bali bombing used this technique. Someone set off a small bomb, then a minute or so later set off a massive car bomb to kill as many people as possible who had clustered around the original scene to help the victims of the first bombing.
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Yes, Chairboy, that is what happened in Bali, as Miko pointed out above.
What terrorist attacks in Israel used this tactic? I'm not disagreeing with you, just hadn't seen it reported. I'd like you to refer me to the report.
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Search for 'timer'
http://www.voicefromzion.org/artman/publish/article_47.shtml
Search for 'kill rescuers'
http://www.jewish-holiday.com/mdaorg.html
Search for 'kill rescuers'
http://www.jayreding.com/archives/week_2001_12_02.php
These are just a few examples from 30 seconds of searching w/ google.
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Thanks Chairboy ...
First link : No reference to the kind of scenario described by Miko, but I did see this: To make matters even worse Internal Security Minister Uzi Landau said the Palestinian Authority is directly responsible for rat poison found in the bomb that blew up December 1 in downtown Jerusalem.
Police found traces of what was apparently rat poison at the scene of the blast.
Check it out, Miko - an explosion carrying a bio agent :D
Second link: Very interesting piece on emergency responses. They do refer to secondary and tertiary explosions meant to harm rescuers as well as the main group. Not to put too fine a point on it, there is a distinction between these and what we were discussing, ie, a blast to funnel victims into a killzone where another bomb does the real damage.
Third link: Another case like the above one.
I think you could argue for immediately leaving the area in the above cases to be spared the effects of secondary explosions meant to harm rescuers.
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>>Police found traces of what was apparently rat poison at the scene of the blast.
Any chance that the rat poison was there before the bomb and the bomb blast merely spread the poison around?
Any place there is food & garbage, usually will attract dinners and rats.
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Read the link.
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lord dolf vader: bugger you.
look for suckin chest wounds...
ohh and smack guy who tells me i cant tend wounded.
The topic of this tactical simulation was "what is an optimal route of egress". That is why it was formulated this way. It was not a test for morality. We were not concerned with an issue whether one ought to leave the scene or send his wife/child away. Only which way to move if one did decide to move.
It was certainly not an invitation for anyone to show off his nobility. Words are cheap here. One can claim all kind of crap about one's moral superiority under a dorky pseudonim.
slimm50: Miko,... What, exactly, prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.
:)
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
(Luke 12:47–48).
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
slimm50: Miko,... What, exactly, prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.
:)
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
(Luke 12:47–48).
miko
The Bible told you to do it?? This is gettin' scarier by the minute.
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Bluedog: The Bible told you to do it?? This is gettin' scarier by the minute.
:)
The Bible is a good source of allegoric sayings for all occasons, even for atheists.
miko
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The truth is none of us really knows how we'd react in that situation unless it happens. Stress does funny things to people. Some want to hide, some run, some want to help others. You just don't know. Most likely I would try to get my family away from the scene. That I think would be my only interest. Protect the family. Now in real life I don't have a family so just how I'd react I don't know. Cower in the corner, run screaming, help others, stand there dumbly in shock. None of us really knows. At a guess given previous stressful experiences I suspect I would suppress any emotional reaction and move through the scene in a rather detached way, probably helping some people, ignoring some and finally drifting away home. I think that would be a common experience of many in that situation. Luckily I've never had to experience something like that and hopefully never will.
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cpxxx: The truth is none of us really knows how we'd react in that situation unless it happens.
You must not have experience with activities that require serious or even reasonable training...
For the rest of us training and preparation is what makes a huge difference in how we perform under stressfull conditions.
You turn the wheels in a proper direction when your car is slipping, you keep pushing anti-lock brakes despite the vibration that makes you want to release the pressure, you do not struggle violently if being caught underwater, you do not run screaming while caught in a fire but crawl low and breeze as little as possible, you run forward - not back when under mortar fire attack, you stay motionless when a sniper is zeroing in on you and you shoot back in an ambush firefight rather than staying still and low. Etc. etc.
All those things are contrary to instinct and following the instinct is suicidal. Numerous people do them every time because they had proper training and survive while poorely prepared people perish.
Stress does funny things to people. Some want to hide, some run, some want to help others.
Yes. Stress makes me laugh. Stress makes me unable to think creatively. That's where the previousy thought of plan comes handy.
You just don't know.
Some people are by nature totally useless in a crunch, true - but those are a very small minority. For most, right upbringing and preparation make a huge difference.
Now in real life I don't have a family so just how I'd react I don't know. Cower in the corner, run screaming, help others, stand there dumbly in shock. None of us really knows.
Even if you do not know how you would react, does not it seem usefull to now how you need to react if you do happen to maintain control over yourself? You may as well run screeming back as forward...
miko
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I would like to add a liitle comment : i live in a terror stricken country ( Israel ) , and have experienced quite a few bomb attacks in restaurants.( worked in a trauma center and seen and heard the dead, wounded and relatives ).
Most of us here have had military training sometime or other in their life and are expected to know how to react to a given situation.
But Allass!! -Planning a strategic response in writing or training is one thing and BEING there is another .
All you want to do is get the hell out of the restaurant !! Just remeber : a blast in a closed environmment ( like a restaurant ) has a multiplied effect which usually injures ALL the diners, some get killed , and the rest are wounded. ( just like an explosion in a bus ).Immediately after the blast there is a terrifying SILENCE for a few seconds and then all hell breaks loose , screaming , shouting , moaning , those who survived try to run for the exit , and try to avoid stepping on bodies while doing so. The bodies close to the explosion are usually torn to pieces and this adds to the sights that the wounded see.
So fellas , it's a good discussion and i could go on in details but still remeber : 1.- you cannot sight the terrorist untill its too late .
2. the bomb's weight can be VERY big ( 10 k"g, or more ) and thus render a huge disaster.
3.Try to get out of the area and wait for rescue .
Doc
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Doc,
Great to have you here. Could you please help with a bit of info that is not provided by the US media. What would you say is the ratio of the dead to wounded that got serious injuries, that require more than just a bandage and couple of weeks recovery? How many people are permanently disabled per each one killed?
The americans have an impression that you get a few killed, kill a couple of militants in responce and the count is in your favor. They do not know about thousands maimed each year.
9/11 was not instructive in that regard, since practically all the victims died and very few survived with injuries.
As for the blask effects in limited space, you are right, but not every space that appears limited actually is. There is a huge difference whether the room has brick/concrete walls or a drywall and a lot of windows. Those get blown away like paper and do not confine/channel the explosion.
Of course I know that you people build most of the stuff from concrete. A 20 pounds of explosive would probably level the whole block of american frame houses.
miko
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Just for numbers : in the last terrorist attack in the "Maxim" restaurant in Haifa - an attack that took place on Saturday at 1400 hrs ( the most crowded hour in a very popular restaurant ) , there were 21 dead and about 50 wounded.
Between the dead : 2 whole families :1: grandfather & mother , son and wife + a kid ( 3 yrs old ) . 2: husband +wife+ 2 small children ( 9yrs and 5 yrs ) + grandmother .
Between the wounded : most of them have already been released from hospital ( about 35 of them ) , the rest are still in hospital, 2 in a very serious condition ( small 4 yr old child with a brain injury ) and the rest with orthopedic \ vascular \chest wounds .
Just for the info : the "lightly" wounded who have been released suffer from deafness ( torn eardrums ) , burns of face , scars for life and not to mention the pshychological effect that will last for years.
In most of the attacks usually the numbers are similar to what i've written up to now, sometimes in bus explosions the number of dead is higher than the wounded.
The wounded suffer for years onward , going from operation to operation trying to rebuild their life .
many suffer from "trauma shock " - with no physical injury but a large mental impact .( usually bystanders who where close by and were exposed to the sights , sounds and smell ( yes yes, there is a very typicall smell of gunpowder mixed with charred bodies ).
Doc
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Milo said:
You must not have experience with activities that require serious or even reasonable training...
Miko, I have to say I found your reply to my post mildly patronising. But for your information: I have been in the military, had some first aid training and am a pilot. All of which require serious and reasonable training and have led to stressful moments where the right decision must me made instantly. My experience of how I actually reacted in some situations leads me to believe that I would remain relatively calm in a bomb situation. Your confidence in your ability is commendable. But in many of the scenarios mentioned there is an expectation of potential danger.
The last thing you expect while relaxing in a cafe on a nice day is to find yourself in a life threatening situation a moment later. There is no preparation for that. You and I just don't know how any one person is going to react. Doctorr has summed it up a lot better than me. He knows what it's really like.
Training can help but you still don't know. I met a veteran of the Croat army who told me that his unit came under fire for the first time, some of his unit cowered in terror and some reacted aggressively as trained, some remained calm, some almost panicked. There was no way of telling beforehand who would do so.
It's all very well thinking you are prepared but this is not a movie. Real life has no script.
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Under extreme stress, when the mind goes out the window, most people will react as they have been trained.
Simple things, like training to reload immediately after exhausting ammo - even if threats have been knocked down - saves lives.
Repeatedly going through the motions of clearing jams, stovepipes, improperly seated magazines - over and over saves lives. It becomes part of the "muscle memory", and you will do it as you've been trained without even realizing that you are doing it under conditions of extreme stress.
Likewize, the process of visualizing "what if" scenarios is valuable simply because it provides your mind with a kind of previous experience that can be applied if a scenario actually happens. If you go through these mental excersizes because reacting the right way is important to you, you are far more likely to do the right thing. I don't think anyone can debate this.
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cpxxx: Miko, I have to say I found your reply to my post mildly patronising.
:) You should have seen how offencive that line was before the edit...
Certainly I did not believe you to be a totally incompetent person - it was intended to be mildly offensive/sarcastic.
You come into discussion and issue a blank statement that preparation and training does not make sense because nobody knows how he will react.
Unpredictability is a cause for more preparation, not less.
There is no area of human action, (outside some reflexive physical activities where over-analysing can screw up natural prowess - like golf) where more correct knowlege would be a handicap and not possibly beneficial.
Your confidence in your ability is commendable.
Nothing to do with that. I can accumulate and share knowlege that I cannot use but some people may.
The last thing you expect while relaxing in a cafe on a nice day is to find yourself in a life threatening situation a moment later.
Don't you always check any premices you enter for the location of exits and fire-extinguishers? If not for bombing, then for loss of electric power, or a fire or a car plowing in from the street. It does not even have to be fully concious - just like car driving.
...some reacted aggressively as trained, some remained calm, some almost panicked. There was no way of telling beforehand who would do so.
First, having trained for some situation makes it less likely that a person will panic. Instead of running around thinking "oh, god, what to I do" he will at least think "I was taught that, I am supposed to deal with it, what was I told?"
Second, those people who do not panic must still know what to do.
It does not help if a person keeps his head and calmly steps up front into more danger instead of as calmly going through the back door and directoing otehrs to do so.
It does not help if a person goes to help a victim who is unconcious rather than one who is bleeding but claiming that he is not hurt badly.
It's all very well thinking you are prepared but this is not a movie. Real life has no script.
Sure it does. Not as simple as in the movie but preparation generally pays. There are no guarantees of course, only the percentages.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
You come into discussion and issue a blank statement that preparation and training does not make sense because nobody knows how he will react.
Unpredictability is a cause for more preparation, not less.
and
Don't you always check any premices you enter for the location of exits and fire-extinguishers? If not for bombing, then for loss of electric power, or a fire or a car plowing in from the street. It does not even have to be fully concious - just like car driving.
First off, I did not state or imply training does not make sense. It does. But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in. Sure training and preparation is good. But in practice most members of the public are not ready for that situation. From my own knowledge, the best people at the scene initially are usually off duty, medics, firefighters, cops etc. People who see trauma all the time. For the rest of us the sight of severed and quivering body parts might freak us out completely. That could happen to me, I just don't know until the moment. You really can't prepare for that. Which is my point. Your point is that we all should prepare and that is a good point. That kind of thinking can be applied to any potential crisis, trivial or major and is good thinking.
Yes I do check out premises for exits etc and I keep my eyes open for dangers, hell, I even use those methods to avoid my boss when I'm skiving. :lol But that's just me, partly from the background growing up in a country where bombs, while not daily occurences, did happen. I checked out cars in the street and packages in public areas and avoided streets where bombs had previously been placed. I suspect anyone growing up in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland or Britain in the last thirty years are more aware of issues like that. Potential terrorism was a daily fact of life.
But I still don't think everyone can be like that or even that I will react sensibly should the worst happen. I'll let you know if I ever find out!
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cpxxx: But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in.
How about if you are not in a restaurant that experienced a blast but the one across the street. You hear a pop, see broken glass but no blood. Should you send your wife and child out the back door or into the street while you do whatever you think you should do personally?
How about if you have to clear a building due to a bomb warning? Do you step out through the main entrance and wait in the middle of a major avenue or do you try to get through service entrance and at least stay in the middle of a block on the small street?
Sure training and preparation is good. But in practice most members of the public are not ready for that situation.
True. But raady is not yes or no thing - rather more or less concept. And why do you care about "most members of the public". If they die of stupidity, does not mean your family should.
For the rest of us the sight of severed and quivering body parts might freak us out completely.
Helps to know a madical professional or a student who can take you to anathomical theater and attend training operation on a corpse. At the very least, there are some sites on the Web that host extremely graphical close-up images of bodily damage or a scene of a major disaster (like the most recent Ukraine airshow crash). So the freak-factor may be diminished or at least accustomed to.
It certainly does not help to see many dead people and mangled body parts for the first time in a situation where quick thinking is required.
It's all in the head and the head can be somewhat adjusted.
You really can't prepare for that.... Your point is that we all should prepare and that is a good point.
?? I guess you mean that we can prepare as much as we can but not expect total readiness.
By the way, the very process of solving/preparing a certain task improves a person's ability to solve tasks of similar kind in general. Your fire and dust and suspicious smell scenarios contain the part of holding your breath, not moving frantically and looking/thinking for the exit before acting - but if you happen to be pulled underwater by undertow, the same technique applies even if you neglected to train for it.
That kind of thinking can be applied to any potential crisis, trivial or major and is good thinking.
But that's just me, partly from the background growing up in a country where bombs, while not daily occurences, did happen.
Now it can happen in our country. A hallmark of an intelligent person is ability to learn on other people's experience.
I'll let you know if I ever find out!
Let's hope you don't have to. :)
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
cpxxx: But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in.
How about if you are not in a restaurant that experienced a blast but the one across the street. You hear a pop, see broken glass but no blood. Should you send your wife and child out the back door or into the street while you do whatever you think you should do personally?
How about if you have to clear a building due to a bomb warning? Do you step out through the main entrance and wait in the middle of a major avenue or do you try to get through service entrance and at least stay in the middle of a block on the small street?
Oddly enough I was thinking about that as I drove home this afternoon. Yes You have got me thinking!! That perhaps is a more realistic scenario. With a family present they must come first and be led to safety. Perhaps then I might return to help. With no family present then I would have to help immediately and until my services were no longer required. Most people would do that, I think.
As for the bomb warning, well I've been in that situation, although a hoax although there was no way of knowing that at the time. Leave by the nearest exit is the best option, preferably to the rear away from parked cars. Get as far away as possible and get off the street. That still may not save you.
In 1998 in the small town of Omagh in Northern Ireland a bomb was planted by dissident members of the IRA. A warning was given, as was the custom. But it was inaccurate by accident or design and many people were evacauted right into the path of the car bomb 400 metres away. The result: 29 dead and 210 injured. All civilians standing in the street. That is what you are up against.