Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on October 28, 2000, 05:19:00 PM
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Had to post a note of thanks to the crew at AH...in less than a year they've changed the entire price/product model for their industry. As a business owner I recognize the magnitude of this achievement. As a customer I understand that that in the end I'll win no matter what happens.
When this product hit open beta my choices were limited to a couple $9.95 "arcade" sims and a pay per hour product that would cost me $200-300 when in "binge" mode. Since then a lot of folks have talked the talk, but only HT, Pyro and crew have walked the walk. They've delivered on every promise that they made the flight sim community. Do I agree with everything...of course not...I still think the hog FM is an abberation. But dollar for dollar this is a great value.
Now lets think about the future, the goal is to find the ideal price/product break point. Not an easy task to under take, go to low you can't support the product, to high you lose members. Based on everything I've seen I suspect AH will continue to try and offer the best deal possible...for everyone...including the ownership of Aces High.
In the meantime, thanks again for following your dream. I and every member of the online flight sim community has reaped a tremendous benifit from your efforts regardless of which product you patronize.
All the Best
Dave Rima
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All comes down to one thing, humble:
Why am I paying more than other guy for the same service?...
I too agree that HTC is a great company and that AH is the best online sim out there.
(I also agree that the Hog FM is an aberration (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
But, while I agree on that ,I deeply disagree with the money thing. And in the end is our pockets what keeps AH alive...why must I charge with a bigger part that other?...more knowing that I have been supporting AH since it went out of beta, with my limited money, why must I pay now more than other who has not?
Well my point is well stated in previous threads. No need to repeat them.
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Ill drink to that.
I can now play a PREMIUM sim and not have to watch the clock debuating if I should log or not. I can grab all the alt I want without worring about how much its costing me. Now even though I hardly ever disco, when I do I dont give a crap cause it didnt cost me anything. Yea sure the other one is flat rate now too, but would it have been if HTC hadnt set the trend? Not a chance.
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To me it's a matter of perspective. Certain players are getting a discounted rate...for a specific reason. Over time (a few months I'd bet) all of us should benifit from a new rate (if feasable).
Now, if AH developes some kind of variable pricing plan, they'll lose market share among those who've been abused (and others who haven't).
I recognize that many members of the community feel cheated somehow, I'm just pointing out the tremendous upside to this sim. I seriously doubt that HT,Pyro and crew will squander the initiative they have. I think they've hit a sound stratagy to explore some very real business issues as cost effectively as possible.
In the end business is a lot more fun when your cashing checks instead of writing em, I'm sure they'll find a solid win/win price point for all of us.
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I play h2h now. Why?
70$ cdn to hook up to ah.
19.95 sounds good.
$10 us $15 cdn sounds much better.
Why not try to put those other sims out of buisness?
4 more are coming online soon.
Knock them out before they get a foot in the door.
Ah is the best sim out now with the best service i agree.
Why not try to get bigger?
Im as hard core a flight simer as anyone who flies here. The ah price after 8 tours made me leave.
I believe that if ah does not lower its price some one with a comperable sim will.
EYE <--flying h2h but waiting for ww2 online or IL2 to go open beta.
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Well said humble, I agree completely. You have to look at the big picture and a few months down the road. The opposing point of view (as stated by RAM) is quite clear also, but somehow looks very short-sighted and selfish in comparison.
bowser
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Originally posted by eye:
$10 us $15 cdn sounds much better.
Why not try to put those other sims out of buisness?
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10$/month is one third of 30$ (hey! I did that with no calculator! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). so to keep the same cash flow going into their pockets, HTC needs 3 times the player base it has now.
Impractical. we aren't enough hardcore sim lovers out there to make 10$/month rentable.
I think that the most probable chance is the 20$/month option. but then we will know that a lot of people is flying with cheaper accounts...
Big can of worms we got here... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I flew for jg26 in aw3. We had 30 + guys on squad in the fr arena.
I bet no one would stay if they had a choice.
Aw regularly had 400 playing at once for10 $us.
Steal all of their customers.
No one flies fr aw3 because of the game now.
Its because they cant see paying 24.95 19.95 or 29.95.
What about ien how many like myself cant stand that company?
Steal their customers.
What about ww2 online soon to be open beta?
The comunity without a game. Steal their customers.
Dont let il2 get a start lets all play together.
Lets see whos the best.
EYE
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Warbirds $24.95 unlimited play. UDIE siad that 9.95 single arena realism play is coming around the corner.
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eye, I only pay $42 CDN a month to play (thats what it was last month, with the fluxuations who knows for the next month eh?). Are you including internet hookup in that $70? And no, I aint on one of these discount subscriptions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
newguy
The Wrecking Crew
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HTC fix the planes ad many many planes if we have 100 of them ships tanks guns .......
continue where u will u can even RISE the Price !!!! but doit FAST plzzz for now i dont get what i wont (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM,
You, I and others are paying more because HTC is conducting sales research. They are trying to find out if a lower price is viable. Offering that lower price without finding out if it is viable would be foolhardy and possibly put them out of business. Giving that lower price to guys like you and I would not provide HTC with the info they are looking for. They want to know if lowering the price would have a corresponding increase in subscribers. The only way to find that is to offer subscriptions, at a lower rate, to people who tried it and didn't subscribe and to people who subscribed and then canceled. They already KNOW that you, I and others like us would subscribe at the lower price because we are subscribed at the higher price. If the research proves that the lower price is as good or better for HTC's business as the current price, then they will lower it for all of us. If it does not prove to be viable, then they will still be in business and we will not see the lower rate.
They have to be allowed to get the info they need to make the service better without betting the farm at unknown odds.
Sisu
-Karnak
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yep thats my isp too.
I also had to upgrade cpu too play.
EYE
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Karnak....FLAG for the use of logic and Fact here.\
10 yards...
PC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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about World War II on-line.....don't bet the farm that it will be available soon, or ever. someone connected with esprit de corps is beta testing now......seems they have a big warp problem that might not be solved for quite a while....if ever.
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RAM ,,,, F*%K you... you've turned every positive post into your personal vagenda <S>.. If you didn't understand English once again F*%k YOU...
NUTTZ
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" someone connected with esprit de corps is beta testing now."
If that isn't ironic I don't know what is. LOL!
-Westy
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Originally posted by NUTTZ:
RAM ,,,, F*%K you... you've turned every positive post into your personal vagenda <S>.. If you didn't understand English once again F*%k YOU...
NUTTZ
A good example of a civilized guy that knows how to respect others' points of view, and their right to say them in public .
Yes, Nuttz...you civilized guy, yeah. Salute for your clear and open mind towards others' problems and views of the same questions.
Yeppes, you are a model, an example for all us, sure. I wanna be like you, really, you are my hero.
(now I'd have to lick your boots and applause you, right?)
Poor moron (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by NUTTZ:
RAM ,,,, F*%K you... you've turned every positive post into your personal vagenda <S>.. If you didn't understand English once again F*%k YOU...
NUTTZ
Nuttz,
One comment, GROW UP.
Mav
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Well said Humble
eskimo
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I Agree Humble.
New Prices thanks to HTC !
For the rest of you "I want $10/MONTH" Crowd..
Great.. every "Gamer" dweeb in the world will be flying AH. (if the price is $10)
HTC: Please Keep the gamers out AND keep the price reasonable WHILE making a good profit.
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It's a very simple concept. The only one that knows if they can reduce the price of the game to compete with other sims on a price quallity basis is HT staff. They know how much money they make on a years basis, nobody else. For me that is not the issue here. What upsets me is the fact that new players get a better offer, and not for a couple of months, for as long as they play.
I bet that a lot of players ask themself every month if they can still afford the costs for this game. I played a lot of different flight sims, believe me this one is expensive. But that is ok, I made that choise and I can afford it, but I want to be treated fair then.
If this price discrimination is really going to happen, I'm out, not because of the "too" high cost but out of principles.
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Bye now.
bowser
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Hey Snoopi,
Have you looked around the main arena lately?
The "Gamer" dweebs have been here, oops, I mean there, since day one, their ranks have swelled with each little marketing vs flightsim reality concession and I am sure the price reduction will add more.
The major difference now is that the average income of the "Gamer" dweebs is lower.
AH and any other online dependent game will not survive without "Gamers", there are not and will never be enough hard core simmers to support them.
That is unfortunate and with several companies competing for the same
cash we will probably see less simming and more gaming from all of them.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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I agree with Sunchaser on what he stated.. however remember one thing:
Hard-core flight sim addicts will always be better than the average gamer. Why? We, or atleast we should be, taking the time to research the aircraft we fly/fight against and study ACM to the point of it being an addiction. The way I see it, the more gamers there are in AH, the more kills for me to get! :-)
-SW
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The major difference now is that the average income of the "Gamer" dweebs is lower.
Hard-core flight sim addicts will always be better than the average gamer.
What a couple of arrogant self-righteous statements. Really pathetic.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Hehe,
If some people being able to play at 14.95/month makes ya mad, this will really piss you off. Some people are playing Aces High for free! Yep that's right free!
The trainers and CMs don't pay a monthly fee to fly. They provide HTC with a service and are compensated by not having to pay for their account. Why would that be differant than anyone else providing HTC a service?
The people that responded to HTC's marketing servey are being compensated with a lower monthly fee, plain a simple. Why is this so hard to understand?
Sharky
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I gotta tell ya that I've got a negative opinion about this "special" pricing promo thing that HTC has come up with. But, make no assumptions. I give a huge <S> to HTC from an awesome sim with great possibilities to come. And on top of that a leader in pricing at 30 bucks a month. All I have to say now is that I sincerely hope your right humble.
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ezdoc
48th Fighter Group "Checkertails"
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AH is my first online sim and i havent tried others so i would probably be a typical example of who HTC aims its products at right?(well back 10 months ago!wow its flown by)
I used the web a lot i played games and liked flightsims(EAW etc)
It was expensive as far as i was concerned but was hooked and paid the subscription.
Now i congratulate HTC on a brilliant game/product but if i find another game i really like i would only be able to afford 1 online sub.(i end up paying £21(HTC) a month+phone bills as it stands)
Im looking forward to seeing other games like WW2 online and im tempted to try WB so i think if HTC does manage to reduce the price it would be a big plus in their favour
and who knows maybe i could afford to keep open more than 1 account.
Im not disloyal to HTC, on the contrary ive tried to get friends to try AH, im being honest.For the moment i have no plans to shut my account but other games do sound tempting! and after reading about the lower price offer I was a little annoyed even though I thought it was a reasonable business move.I just think that it was executed in a strange manner.A news item on the BB would have been ok by me.Instead i heard about it whilst playing hearing i was paying $10 more than the next guy.Not good i think you'll agree
hazed
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 10-29-2000).]
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ezdoc,
Look how quickly and openly they've responded to this issue. It's a pretty good indication that they believe in the course of action they've choosen. Based on what I've seen so far I'm certain they'll act logically...based on what results they get from their "survey".
Now lets look at the most reasonable alternative...WB's...they've had the luxury of a large income stream for how long? What benifit have the long time subscribers gained over the last year?
Has the overall product been improved over the last year?
Has the server/connect issues that apparently exist been reduced to any degree?
Has the product been updated to reflect user desires? If so, how often?
Based on what I've heard I'd say no to all the above...but please correct me if I'm in error. So either WB is not really profitable or they're not reinvesting at all in the product. Now I know that AH has to still be in a "boot strapping" mode. Cutting subscriber fee's by any significant amount might really hamper continued evolution of the game...but then again, maybe it could be offset by greater numbers. That's what I believe they're trying to resolve here.
I do have 1 question...and an observation for the AH community.
Question: Is supporting the pace of development worth paying a premium for (the $5 difference in current pricing)?...this does not condone permanent "tier" pricing and assumes setting of a single rate after "survey" offerings are finished.
Observation/question:
I have seen no indication that AW or WB is actually committed to ongoing development of essentially mature products. This is inspite of the fact that the initial expense of development has been recovered and the base infrastructure paid for. The other new offerings remain "teasers"...long on eye candy but not even in open beta yet...SO...with the old gaurd committed to maximizing profit and minimizing outlay while the "new breed" is still months or years away...why not give these guys the time they need to settle in to a reasonable BUSINESS model. We all know they're committed to the game, give em time to prove they're committed to us. I seriously doubt they'll make the same mistakes the WB folks did. By the way, all you WB folks that read this BBS ought to send a 1 time donation to AH....they did save you guys a lot of money...didn't they (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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First..a personal definition:
Gamer: one who would prefer the game "Crimson Skies" over "Aces High"
Anyone who can fly and fight fair in AH is NOT a "Gamer"
Sunchaser:
No I haven't been in the MA in a while because I went back to school and am now looking for work. (hence no $47/month)
In regards to needing the "gamers"...I agree that that the financial aspect is unfortunate.
Raubvogel:
I think Sunchaser meant that because the price may drop, it will enable the "Gamers" with lower incomes to now play AH.
This is in addition to the higher income "Gamers" now in AH.
I also think "AKSeaWulfe" is right....
In a hardcore, as-close-to-real-as-it-gets sim the "hardcore sim addicts" will always be better than the "Gamers".
This is not due to superior intelligence but due to spending the time to learn.
To say this is not true would be like saying that, a AH player can be as good as a real warbird pilot in a real warbird even though he has not spent time training and just wants to yank the stick around.
I say keep the price above $10
People who are serious about AH will pay..
the rest won't.
Keep the price reasonable so most people can find a way to pay for it. But keep the price high enough, so that you are probably serious about the game.
This will hopefully, in addition, keep out A FEW of the players who basically act like children. (I also include the people inclined to hack the game so that they can "win" without trying to learn some skills)
Regards,
Snoopi
BTW Raubvogel...
I have "flown" with many of the LJK squad and they are great.
As I understand it, the squad came from FA.
Although some misguided people would say that makes you "gamers", I would disagree.
The LJK squad and it's members are the kind of people I'd love to see more of.
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Hint to htc i flew 8 months pay. I now fly for free in the h2h.
Why? I simply after 8 months didnt feel it was a fair price. 30 usd.
Why give guys that flew free accouts multiple times a cheaper rate?
I ran into one in the h2h i brought up what was going on with this price issue.
He said he flew 6 months free!
This pissed me off! I payed 8 months.
So you know what i did?
I killed him 6 times in a row on his server (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) lol
As far as you guys with this flight sim snobery price does not keep tulips out of games. There are as many rich tulips as poor ones.
Frankly anyone who can afford to get a computer + isp+ 30 usd or 10 for that matter is not poor.
EYE
Btw you send me a account offer for 14.95 right now and ill pay again. cferrara@mnsi.net
Ill be waiting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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One correction-
All CM's do not receive free accounts. Some may in the future, but to my knowledge I know of no one that does at this time (who knows, maybe I have one- the wife handles the bills). It is a voluntary corps, and has been from the start.
Trainers do receive free accounts, but they earn every penny of it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Your point is valid nonetheless; there is and always has been a different price tier, and no reason to think that it's abnormal.
There are many things that might make me quit playing any sim, but concern over what the other guy is paying is not one of them.
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CM, Aces High Scenario Corps.
http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/calendar/calendar.htm (http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/calendar/calendar.htm)
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
What a couple of arrogant self-righteous statements. Really pathetic.
No, it's not arrogant or self-righteous. It's the way it was, is and always will be. A gamer does not know the difference in execution of a chandelle or a spiral climb. A rolling scissors, scissors or vertical scissors. Most don't even know what a rope-a-dope is. They just do what they do because they know after several experiences in their game what works and what doesn't.
You take the average gamer AH player and pit him against the average hard-core simmer in AH and I'll bet you dollars to donuts the hard-core guy comes out on top.
You are a gamer if you simply play the game with no understanding and no want to understand what we are playing for. ie: why were these planes built. What were they used for? What is the best way to defeat a low-thrust aircraft in a high-thrust aircraft?
A gamer does not have a bunch of books about WWII aircraft or Shaw's book. Some hard-core players don't even have Shaw's book but they are always researching their hobby.
It's like watching football. Some people just watch one team just to see how good they are. They don't care about the players in the game, they don't care about the team's past, they don't care about anything except if the team wins. However the hard-core football fan knows every little statistic about his team and possible the entire league.
-SW
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Your point is valid nonetheless; there is and always has been a different price tier, and no reason to think that it's abnormal.
They get limited time of free account (6 months). After it they will pay as anyone else.
The guys we are talking about will live with that offer forever. And I doubt AH goes down to 10$/month.
So we will always be paying less than them. I find THAT abnormal, yes.
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Look at all the business experts. You'd think that a group that knows so much about how to run a business would be so rich that they wouldn't care if AH were $30 or $300 per month.
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I have no idea of bussiness.
But you only need to look around and see what that measure has started.
If you still think it was a wise move, then you need glasses. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
P.S. not kicking the dead horse here, just stating a fact.
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Snoop. If 1.04 proved nothing else. It was that FM keeps the gamers out. Not price.
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Easymoe,
Stick stirring didn't get mentioned until 1.04. I think the gamers are here and enjoying the fm.
Mav
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Originally posted by easymo:
Snoop. If 1.04 proved nothing else. It was that FM keeps the gamers out. Not price.
I am inclined to agree with ya EZ.
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Hehe, Ok ,let's limit this to guys who know the werke # of Molders plane, and when the 3 of ya get tired of playing with each other, maybe you'll let someone else play.
Jeez, considering I've seen more Dweeb moves and behavior from the "hard-core crowd", let's see if this works, We limit the game, oops! SIM, forgive me, to those who are best qualified to properly employ the aircraft in the historic manner,using the historic tactics,and with all the historic prejudices,
that cuts out the riffraff,quakers,weekend fighter pilots,etc.
hmm, problem, under this model the sim is only useable by actual WWII fighter pilots.
Not enough customer base, company goes under.
(Take this tongue in cheek,please, and as far as the riffraff go, Bill Gates is a fine example of the antisocial,win-at-any cost type, care to suggest he couldn't afford to play?)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Just sort of skimmed over the various replies, but that was a good post at the top. <S>
Funked, I don't. That isn't the point.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)