Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: LtMagee on October 19, 2003, 12:07:42 PM
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You decide.
After last night, I am all for eliminating bomber formations. Their guns are leathel and with one pass the fighter hanger is dead. With no maned field guns etc etc etc etc....well you know the story.
While guys are out dogfighting, a bomber flight or two whipes out the FH. Guys dont like to attack bomber formations due to the fact that the odds of stopping them are slim.
Arlo, you guys know what I am talking about.
Remove the B26 with the tail gunner.
Activate maned field gunners.
Remove bomber formations.
Shorten FH down times.
Remove all bombers altogether.
Which do you guys want?
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Dunno .... even if we removed level bombers there'd be guys jaboing the FHs where the furball is just because they believe they're "helping the war effort." Even with a map chock fulla targets the bases feeding the fights seem mighty appealing to the dedicated porker. But I guess it doesn't help the matter any when those bombing bases away from the fight are labeled "milkers" and ridiculed by the furballers when, in reality, they should probably be treated as a non-entity unless they're bombing the HQ.
And with resets causing havoc on most CT maps (resulting in bizarre glitches) ... then landgrabbing should be made "pert near" impossible ... if not entirely so. Maybe 30 troops to capture and increasing the hardness as well as lowering the downtime of aaa and ack.
*ShruG*
I dunno .. I'm bout convinced that there's damn near nothin' that can't be fugged up by bored players bent on it.
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just disable ord all together and put Killshooter on enemy hangers. Lets watch the fireworks as strat ho's try to pork a base then.
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Originally posted by Arlo
-SNIP-
And with resets causing havoc on most CT maps (resulting in bizarre glitches) ... then landgrabbing should be made "pert near" impossible ... if not entirely so. Maybe 30 troops to capture and increasing the hardness as well as lowering the downtime of aaa and ack.
*ShruG*
I dunno .. I'm bout convinced that there's damn near nothin' that can't be fugged up by bored players bent on it.
Stopping the land grab with a 30 or 300 troops minimum
would sure help alot. Once that is accomplished then it
would remain up to those in each country to stop the
furball busters from whacking FH's and fuel...
Encourage them to concentrate on AMMO/RADAR/BARRACKS
as their targets...chastise them if they persist in PORKING
FH/fuel resources...( I often whack barracks and ammo
bunkers to stop/slow down land grabbers as a matter of
routine ) On that note, the 30 minute down time is too
short for ammo/barracks but too long for FH's...
Is the hardness and downtime settable for individual classes
of objects so a different setting could be applied to FH's vs BH's
or fuel vs ammo? If so, then adjusting these values
would help.
I'd also like to see SMALLER CT maps than even the current
10 x 10 or whatever it is. A 6 x 6 grid would be ideal considering
the numbers that us the CT, IMO.
That spacing between A2 & A3 was perfect for furballing
while it lasted yesterday...hogs and ponies meeting mid-channel,
all below 8K and engaging in 3 v 4 and 5 v 6 sized fights.
I also managed some excellent 1 v 1 engagements yesterday
near A11 but , being a low alt turn & burn type I prefer to
fight over the water where ground clutter doesn't interfere
with the fight.
Those are my $0.02 for the time being...
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I really like buff hunting.
I also think that "land grabber" keep the game going, from becoming too static.
eskimo
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Actually I think it's that many new guys to the CT don't understand the CT. It's up to the regulars in the CT to explain the etiquette.
Upping a buff is fine just don't kill the frontline FHs or fuel as a solo player, it makes no sense in the CT and most CT regulars will admit the occasional Tuesday bombing runs with 60-80 people are fun for everybody.
Bomber pilots, plink the field ack or hit the strat but leave the frontline FHs and fuel alone.
And trust me LtMagee, there are guys out there who kill Buffs as casually as you'd swat a fly.
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I for one enjoy the heck out of a good bombing run. Not using them like JABO's but a nice level run from 15-17k that wipes out a base.
Not many people are able to do that regularly so overall it should be a non-issue any rate.
The CT is becoming a Furball elitist playground. If you buff or enjoy GV's it's rapidly becoming so you're not welcome.
PS:
I enjoy a good furball as much as the next person but there ARE other aspects to the game.
Let the flames commence.
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Originally posted by Sundiver
The CT is becoming a Furball elitist playground. If you buff or enjoy GV's it's rapidly becoming so you're not welcome.
Oh contraire. I've been a supporter of "total warfare" in the CT ever since I signed on. The problem isn't really the toys ... it's the way they're used. I've laughed at furballers whining about bombs hitting their base in the past. But experiencing, first hand, a really fun fight getting stopped dead in it's tracks by first mutual FH porking then one side capturing one of the bases (of the two closest bases on the map) ... and seeing players who don't have the time to deal with it switch to the MA or log, I can relate and sympathize.
There were targets all over the bloody map but the landgrab took priority. And it took priority right where the fun was for the players who enjoy more of the AvA aspect and less (or none) of the bombing and landgrabbing aspect. So trying to make it a case of the furballers wanting it "all their way" comes off as a rather ignorant stance to me now.
Granted .... if you hit bases away from the fight you'll undoubtedly be labeled a "milkrunner" but I've come of the opinion that that's certainly the lesser of two evils and the verbal abuse some spit over channel one in regard to it deserves little or no concern.
It comes down to this:
Can the actions of one player be considered disruptive to the fun of the population in the arena as a whole? If the answer is yes, then there's really no amount of rationalization that can excuse the actions of that player.
Can the CT staff effectively neuter a player or (or players) dedicated to ruining everyone else's fun? Not by terrain or setup design from what I've seen to date. Perhaps not at all short of repeatedly booting him from the arena.
Should it have to come to that?
I would hope not.
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Originally posted by Arlo
It comes down to this:
Can the actions of one player be considered disruptive to the fun of the population in the arena as a whole? If the answer is yes, then there's really no amount of rationalization that can excuse the actions of that player.
Can the CT staff effectively neuter a player or (or players) dedicated to ruining everyone else's fun? Not by terrain or setup design from what I've seen to date. Perhaps not at all short of repeatedly booting him from the arena.
sooooo, you're saying maybe killshooter should be on? :aok
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Add wind into the setups to make the level of difficulty for bombers more "realistic". I'd love to see two wind layers - a light surface layer wind and a stronger wind layer starting at 10k or higher.
Cheers,
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I don't think disabling bombers is the answer; because there are a lot of people who thoroughly enjoy a good bombing run.
There are a lot of twinks, too, who go to destroy FHs at the main fight. But, I have noticed that when they're about to do it, they announce it on channel.
Anyone else noticed that? The people who come in to just pork FHs are bases that are part of the main fight at the moment... are not CT regulars. And they say on country, "I'm gonna go take out the FH at __." That's more how it works in the MA, they announce it and 6 other people jump on the bandwagon.. they think its the same here. So maybe if you /see/ that on a channel you can pipe up and say, "Hit somewhere else, dweeb. Go back to the MA". They might listen if enough people say it.
If not, broadcast their name across channel one. Let the trash talkers work their magic.. and we'll be rid of el-dweebo. Hopefully.
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Originally posted by Shane
sooooo, you're saying maybe killshooter should be on? :aok
Yeah, that too.
Heh ... but I'm tellin' yas ... I've never been more tempted. ;)
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ks should be "off" is how it should have read, but... i know what you're saying. to assauge any potential pangs of conscious, angle for the "immersion" factor.
:D
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OK I've read that Bombers should be neutered, Bases made uncapturable, FH downtime should be shortened, maps should be made smaller, fields should be closer in this thread.
Gentlemen... why not just ask the CM team to stop working for hours and hours on maps and just have them put up the DA map? Disable all non-fighters and rename the Combat Theatre the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set.
Then I read comments about immersion. Some people in this thread wanted to increase the immersion factor.
Why does this all seem mutually exclusive? Oxymoronish in fact?
The CT is an attempt to simulate parts of the battles fought in WWII. As is the case with any simulation it is imperfect. However it gets reasonably close without being horribly tedious.
Bombers are not Ack Stars capable of dealing instant death to anyone who attempts to attack them. They are slow, unmanuverable target drones that fire back. Killing them is easy and should be painless for the Elite Fighter Pilot. Most notably if we have a LW planeset up and running. Refer to an earlier post on the simple rules for killing them.
As for hardening the FHs, making them unkillable etc... please! The whole point in a "war" is to make life irritating for the enemy. The whole point of a simulation is to mimic a real condition. Therefore bombers coming over to a field and rendering it unusable is a valid tactic. It is also deeply satisfying for the pilot who pulled it off. A lot of this thread contained comments to the effect that such persons are ruining their fun. Yet a whole lot of discussion went into ruining the bomber pilots fun without much thought. I come back to the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set comment.
As to the extraordinarily long flights back to the fight. The typical plane in AH can cover a 25 mile flight in 4.5 minutes. This 25 miles is the average additional distance that the removal of the furball base causes. Are you people actually trying to say that 4.5 minutes is an excessively long time that you can't deal with?
If the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set is really what the majority of the people flying in the CT want then let us truely put it to a vote. Let's get a list of regular CT pilots together. Have someone put up a voting page in their webspace. Crosscheck votes against the regular pilots. Finally see with empirical proof what the desire of this community is and perhaps save the CT staff hours and hours of time.
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Originally posted by scJazz
OK I've read that Bombers should be neutered, Bases made uncapturable, FH downtime should be shortened, maps should be made smaller, fields should be closer in this thread.
Gentlemen... why not just ask the CM team to stop working for hours and hours on maps and just have them put up the DA map? Disable all non-fighters and rename the Combat Theatre the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set.
Then I read comments about immersion. Some people in this thread wanted to increase the immersion factor.
Why does this all seem mutually exclusive? Oxymoronish in fact?
The CT is an attempt to simulate parts of the battles fought in WWII. As is the case with any simulation it is imperfect. However it gets reasonably close without being horribly tedious.
Bombers are not Ack Stars capable of dealing instant death to anyone who attempts to attack them. They are slow, unmanuverable target drones that fire back. Killing them is easy and should be painless for the Elite Fighter Pilot. Most notably if we have a LW planeset up and running. Refer to an earlier post on the simple rules for killing them.
As for hardening the FHs, making them unkillable etc... please! The whole point in a "war" is to make life irritating for the enemy. The whole point of a simulation is to mimic a real condition. Therefore bombers coming over to a field and rendering it unusable is a valid tactic. It is also deeply satisfying for the pilot who pulled it off. A lot of this thread contained comments to the effect that such persons are ruining their fun. Yet a whole lot of discussion went into ruining the bomber pilots fun without much thought. I come back to the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set comment.
As to the extraordinarily long flights back to the fight. The typical plane in AH can cover a 25 mile flight in 4.5 minutes. This 25 miles is the average additional distance that the removal of the furball base causes. Are you people actually trying to say that 4.5 minutes is an excessively long time that you can't deal with?
If the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set is really what the majority of the people flying in the CT want then let us truely put it to a vote. Let's get a list of regular CT pilots together. Have someone put up a voting page in their webspace. Crosscheck votes against the regular pilots. Finally see with empirical proof what the desire of this community is and perhaps save the CT staff hours and hours of time.
Totally agree with you Jazz... to you for actually bringing these points up..
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Originally posted by Shane
ks should be "off" is how it should have read, but... i know what you're saying. to assauge any potential pangs of conscious, angle for the "immersion" factor.
:D
I'm all for immersion. The kids can't handle it. *ShruG*
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Originally posted by scJazz
The whole point in a "war" is to make life irritating for the enemy. The whole point of a simulation is to mimic a real condition. Therefore bombers coming over to a field and rendering it unusable is a valid tactic.
* * *
If the Elitist Furballing Arena with Rotating Plane Set is really what the majority of the people flying in the CT want then let us truely put it to a vote.
Jazz, there's a whole CT balance thing that you're ignoring. Obviously the CT doesn't appeal to as great an audience as does, say, the MA, and so getting - and keeping - people in the arena has always been a challenge. Making life irritating for them is not a technique calculated to increase numbers, particularly on a map such as we have at present, where many of us really do not want to spend five minutes flying to a two-minute fight, then spending another five minutes flying to it...you can see where the proportions lead.
In a broader sense, I dispute your notion that we are trying to fight a war in the CT. We aren't. They do that in the MA, where conquest yields a result. In the CT it doesn't. No goal is advanced by bombing the fighter hangers, other than making it harder for your opponents to get to you for a fight. The "real war" tactics of ganging, vulching, and base porking may win a war, but they don't make it enjoyable, and many of us, even the most dedicated CT-types, leave when that happens.
I, for one, don't object to bombers, because many of the fighters are more effective in ground attack, and I know some good people who like to fly bombers. I object to the attitude that making it harder for the other side to get to the fight is a good thing - whether they're flying in bombers or fighters, floating in boats or driving jeeps.
Finally....if you insist on calling for a vote....I vote on the side of the Elitist Furballers, whom I can admire, if not emulate.
- oldman
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Fighters exist because of bombers, the CT would be a pointless wasteland without them. Might as well just fly in the DA. Enough said.
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On top of that, resetting the CT generally porks it up bad ... unlike the MA.
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I can see both sides up to a certain point. I was a dedicated buff driver for a year and truly enjoyed it. But seriously. Are you trying to tell me the buffs are more than a minor annoyance?
How many people do you know that can put the eggs on target? While under attack from fighters and flying through flack? I'd be willing to wager most buff drivers actually hit a FH maybe, /maybe/ 30 percent of the time that's probably being extremely generous.
I generally ask for both a fighter escort and a gunner when I'm flying a buff. I much prefer being able to concentrate on the bomb run. I'm also all for "realistic" wind levels and layers. I like the added challenge to deliver the ordinance. Anyone who doesn't think putting bombs on target from 15k through wind layers while under fighter assault isn't as challenging as a good dogfight has never tried it.
On another note, quite frankly I've /rarely/ seen buffs used in conjunction with ANY base capture. 9.99 times out of ten it's a Squadron doing a JABO run with a M3 waiting. Fighter pilots in AH overall just don't have the paitence to escort buffs and wait for them to soften things up before going in for a capture.
So don't blame the buffs for base capture most of the time it's the fighter jocks doign JABO runs.
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I ain't blaming the availability of bombers, bombs, tanks, goons, m3s, psychological warfare, chemical warfare, biologocal warfare, nookelar warfare, pornography in the trenches, sheep stds, republicans, democrats, green peacers, bishes, knights, rooks, pawns, allies, axis, el salvadorians, hondurans, the war on drugs or dee debil.
This is a player issue alone. This map was probably pressed into service based on it's attractive features (possibly the closest thing the CT staff could find that approximates S. America). It's not set up for quick fights. Of course, this pleases 7.3% of the players who play in the CT arena on a regular basis and 2.4% of the MA visitors. Ok ... I made those figures up.
Maybe .... maaaaaayybeeee .... someday there might be a Honduran-El Salvador map and skins created with a better base setup ... but until then this is what this setup looks like. And there's been some fun fights in the a2-a3 region. Is there any good reason to disrupt that one potential furball? Because someone doesn't like furballs? And they're being forced to fly in that furball?
*ShruG*
Well, since all it takes is one player with a chip on their shoulder to "make a point" to the furballers .... and since we know there's always at least one in the crowd ... this post was a monumental waste of time. (hits submit reply ... wth) :D
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I've got a 2v1 kill ratio on the F4U-4 in my F4U-1d in the "Soccer Wars." Most of the players flying the -4 in this setup don't know what the hell they're doing. Basically the only time they kill me is when I dive into a swarm of em and even then I get one or two first. (Certainly not practicing what I preach to my squadies in that case).
The -4 ain't no more reason not to fly this setup than the Zekes or Tonys vs the Pee 40 in the last CT Pac.
Just put your game face on and kill em. :D
Oh ... and the F4U-4 vs the F4U-1d is the least misrepresentative part of this set historically .... except for the fact that the -4 is actually filling in for the -5 and -5N. ;)
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Seems to me that what a lot of people here would enjoy is something similar to "Fighter town" that they had in AW. No buffs, no Gvs or boats, just 3 or 4 bases for each side, that can't be porked and furballing heaven. Maybe not a place people would like to fly all the time, but when the maps or planesets are not to their liking, off to Fighter town.
Shop
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buffs have their place/role....
but it is annoying if some frustrated goober kills the only FH's at bases that aren't really trying ot be taken and used as furball central.
i think it'd be nice if no formations were allowed, tho' - force them to at least be escorted.
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Heck even the BOB and Big Week set up when there should be lots of bombers flying u hardly ever see any,this is about the only time I up them and usually I the only one in them.I used to have lots of time to carefully plan out a good bombing srtike always hitting strat targets but the flight time of a half hour each way and hardly ever seeing any action (which to me is a sucessfull mission) is a bit too long even for me these days.
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The F4U-4 has no place in this scenario in those lopsided numbers OR both sides should have had them AND the pony equally. You can leave or keep the Jug (few seem to appreciate it's true potential). That would be a truer representation of what actually occurred in that splendid little war.
:rolleyes:
Holy cow!!
Last week you were complaining about the Spits....this week it's the F4u_4's....
WHY WON'T THEY FLY WHAT I WANT THEM TO FLY THE WAY I WANT THEM TO FLY?? I CAN'T KILL THEN AND THEY ARE KILLING ME...TAKE THEM OUT!!!
Sounds like you need to take a break....sorry this isn't Storch's little CT playground. If ya don't like it either brace up and tough it out, or shove off mate.
:aok
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Ooohh...such a mature and well thought out response. Thanks for the name calling....touched a nerve, eh?:eek:
Guess I shouldn't have expected anything less.
So, if your not flying the setup, then why post a whine about it??
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(http://www.earthstation1.com/drstrang.jpg) (http://soundamerica.com/sounds/movies/D-i/Dr_Strangelove/warroom.wav)
click this or image (http://soundamerica.com/sounds/movies/D-i/Dr_Strangelove/warroom.wav)
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LOL...u are a class act Storch. Make accusations...call me names...then run away by saying ur "not gonna respond to anything further" from me. LOL
Ur right, your post wasn't directed at me...touch a nerve? Yeah probably. After I read, and reread your post...I finally decided I was fed up with reading people piss and moan about the planesets in here.
And bud, you don't know a thing about me, so go ahead a keep calling me names and writing whatever crap pops into that little head of yours if it makes ya feel better. It takes a lot of courage to do that from behind a computer screen:eek: :lol
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my threads are my observations and my opinions. I have opinions as we all do and am entitled to them.
So is Duke.
seen me on lately dikwad ??
Yes
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Well, we have the MA, CT, TA, DA, and special events arenas. Why not start the WA (whiners arena) or the CA (crybaby arena).
In these arenas if one did not like what the other side had going for them, all they would have to to is whine or cry to the staff members, and poof... they would have their own way.
Of course you would have to have several staff members on hand to accomodate the overload of complaints from whiners and criers, as I am sure both arenas would have to be reset constantly from the changes brought about by the whiners and criers. Gee... sounds like work, but after all... the staff of AH have nothing better to do than to placate a few tards that want the world to go their way. Would this work? Probably not!
I am sure that if you gave everyone what they wanted we would still hear the annoying whines like... you have to take the sun out of here because it gets in my eyes and I cannot see the enemy planes, or we need to take the clouds out because the enemy is using them to hide behind, or make the water white in color so I can see the low flying enemy sneaking up on us and I can find the fleets better, or can we put a window in the floor of my airplane, cause I cannot see who is sneaking up from below me.
JEEZUS!
Yeah, I know it sounds very childish and immature, and GAWD I hope we never have to listen to anything like that, but I am beginning to wonder
Yes, there are a few problems with the aspect of realism in AH as well as the CT, but it is what we have to work with. When I heard about AH and what it offered to the combat gaming community I was extremely elated, as I had never been involved in such a venture. I checked it out and was actually having the time of my life. I mean after all, here was a game that boasted in giving the player a real life Combat experience with fighters, bombers, ground vehicles, ships, and fixed gun positions all from your own computer, and for only 15 dollars a month. WOW!
I do not know about the rest of you, but I have a lot of fun in AH, with emphasis on the CT. I can come in and fly with my squadmates and have one hell of a good time. I have also made some very good friends in here from both sides, to the point of feeling like they are family (there goes the neighborhood).
I do notice however that there is a small faction of individuals that love to do their fighting on the text buffer, and have also noticed that these are the premier whiners. They will never be satified unless they are successfully screwing it up for everyone else. They complain and whine about everything they can, and it seems that they will never be satisfied no matter what the game has to offer. I just look at these few as I would a handfull of anti gun opponants at an NRA convention. Yeah, they can cry all they want to, but bottom line they are outnumbered hundreds to one.
I wonder what would happen if all the whiners got together and started their own flight sim company... Maybe call it Arses Cry or something along those lines. Then they could charge maybe 20 dollars a month and set up many arenas for their paying customers to play in. There would be no bombers, no GV's, No fleets, and absolutely no fun! Who would do the whining then?
:confused:
Sorry, just my long winded 2 cents.
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Ahhh, 2-dogs .... I see you read the first post and quickly formulated a wall of text. :D
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This thread brings about valid ways to make people happy beneath the top layer whine. At least the first post does (maybe not stated in a friendly, open for discussion manner.. but its in there); the whole thread kind of dwindled down into an all-out whine fest. But oh well, its a given here on Aces that that'll happen anymore.
Having manable ack helps defend the field against bombers when all else fails; I think I heard a CT Staffer say that its a map problem on this map, so we don't get the manned ack, not an option to active/deactivate... So, mapmakers of the future; remember to put in manned ack, it does get used and is greatly appreciated. I also think that shortening FH downtimes would be beneficial because... you still get the historical accuracy of people porking the field if and when they choose to do it.. but it isn't going to intterupt the flow of game play for as long a time. It wont make people happy, but it'll make them happier. Hopefully.
That's just my two cents there, and an attempt to get the thread back on topic.. maybe. If people can be serious and actually try to address the problem and come up with constructive solutions to fix it, rather than whine and wait for someone else to do so.
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Gee Arlo
Do I not have the right to be rediculous too, lol.
I guess I like to poke fun at the whimsical whiners we have flourishing amongst us. It is also quite humorous to see the backlash of the many thread replies that abound from one individuals inept view of the game. It is all in fun brother... And I am having a blast:rofl
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Originally posted by kesolei
If people can be serious and actually try to address the problem and come up with constructive solutions to fix it, rather than whine and wait for someone else to do so.
LOL
Every setup has it's own unique problems. And what's one player's solution is another player's problem. Compromises seldom are recognized and even less seldom universally applied.
Case in point: My suggestion that, in this particular terrain and setup (as it is) porkers and landgrabbers simply leave the a2/a3 fight alone and let the players there that only want a close AvA fight have their fun. It's lost in a thread where each side is reading every other word of every other post and coming out of it with an "accurate picture" of the "other side's" shortcomings. ;)
Funny thing is, I already saw that coming. :D
*It is to laugh. :rofl
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2 Dogs.
Heh .... every damn one here is a ruttin' whiner. ;)