Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: indian on October 29, 2000, 10:17:00 AM
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Just watch the History channel with the Blacksheep Sqaudron playing. The former members that were interveiwed said the had incendiary .50 cals ammo. Zeros blew up quickly. I think we should have this ammo here and not just the armour peircing that we have now.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Tracer
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Those would be nice. All those dirty chog flyers will feel my wraith of pain. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by Frosty1:
Those would be nice. All those dirty chog flyers will feel my wraith of pain. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I wonder if it would have enough penetration power; lets note that Zeke has no armour while F4u has and incendiary does not have armour penetration from the best end.
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hmmm y begg for incidentary am with AP balistic
cant beleve inc ammo can fly like the AP turbo laser
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Tracer ammo is incendiary ammo .
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The most common ammunition for the US .50 M2 used in the air-to-air role was the M8 AP/I (Armor Piercing Incendiary) round. Note that almost all air-to-air MGs usually fired a high proportion of incendiary rounds.
Projectile Data
Muzzle Velocity: 928 m/sec
Weight: 42.9g
Contains 1g of incendiary compound
Could penetrate about 23mm of face hardened or 25mm of homogenous armor at 100m
Here is some more data on the round
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm)
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm)
Here is a picture of a .50 AP/I round penetrating some armor plate
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50api.jpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50api.jpg)
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 10-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 10-29-2000).]
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Fishu, the keyword is flyers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .50 in the cockpit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by Frosty1:
Fishu, the keyword is flyers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .50 in the cockpit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So you wan't to cook the pilot instead of boiling fuel tanks? hmh.. rather interesting use for incendiarys
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Originally posted by Fishu:
I wonder if it would have enough penetration power; lets note that Zeke has no armour while F4u has and incendiary does not have armour penetration from the best end.
Fishu,
The armor is around the cockpit, not the fuel tanks. U.S. planes had self sealing fuel tanks to reduce the chance of leaking fuel igniting. Self sealing was not armor, projectiles would sail right through the tanks, the self sealing aspect kept the gas inside the tanks. Japanese planes particularly lacked this feature in the early to mid war models and were easy to ignite because of it. Any puncture of a tank caused the plane to bleed gasoline which in the presence of hot exhaust or incediary rounds led to a fire very rapidly.
Mav
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Fishu,
The armor is around the cockpit, not the fuel tanks. U.S. planes had self sealing fuel tanks to reduce the chance of leaking fuel igniting. Self sealing was not armor, projectiles would sail right through the tanks, the self sealing aspect kept the gas inside the tanks. Japanese planes particularly lacked this feature in the early to mid war models and were easy to ignite because of it. Any puncture of a tank caused the plane to bleed gasoline which in the presence of hot exhaust or incediary rounds led to a fire very rapidly.
Mav
Excuse me but B-17 has self sealing tanks that are armored.
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It would be nice to have that AP/I round in AH. It would really make those cannon lovers think a little about dueling with a P-51D. With that kind of penatration and terminal performance, it would take very few rounds to cause catastrophic damage to almost any fighter.
Give us those AP/I and I think that we will see that the CHOG becomes a dust collector in the hanger.
Midnight
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Fishu, are you wondering if 50 caliber BMG has enough penetration for what target? There is no AC that will stop it within its effective range. Becuase of its muzzle velocity and its sectional density the it would have no problem making holes in AC skins. BTW-- incendiary rounds were no less armor peircing. The correct acronym today is API, armor peircing incendiary.
The reason I know-- It is my job in the USAF.
hence the name--- ammo
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Midnight wrote:
It would be nice to have that AP/I round in AH.
Well I'm not so sure we don't have it already. From what I can tell the Aces High damage model is mostly composed of large structural elements (i.e. planes tend to get killed by big pieces coming off). Planes don't catch on fire nearly as much as they did in the real world. And I've never seen my plane take damage to any of the following: controls, hydrallics, oxygen bottles, ammuntion boxes, fuel injection system, etc.. etc... I really doubt that penetration is modelled in the current damage system, and incendiary effects clearly are missing. So, with the existing damage system I can't think of a meaningful difference that having AP/I ammo would make in the game.
Personally given the large number of critical components crowded into fighter aircraft that were vulnerable to a single armor-piercing hit, I think the the lethality of MGs relative to cannons in AH is somewhat lower than it should be. Almost all MGs fired AP/I rounds and an across-the-board increase in ALL MG lethality to represent the high probability of getting a critical hit would certainly be welcomed by me.
Hooligan
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Fishu,
I don't recall anyone mentioning B17's. And the "armor" on B17's tanks was pretty damn weak.
Only REALLY armored plane was the from soviets.
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Fishu,
I don't recall anyone mentioning B17's. And the "armor" on B17's tanks was pretty damn weak.
Only REALLY armored plane was the from soviets.
Maybe I am not talking of 10mm armor?
And ok, .50 caliber is all mighty and can make its way through 50mm of solid steel with AP and at least 20mm with rubber.
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<yawn> Fishu, let me know when you say something worth knowing about.
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While we are talking about MG ammo, I am at loss why the russian 12,7 mm seems to be so weak?
Correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that the russian 12,7mm has faster muzzle velocity (shell case is 10mm longer, I have no info on projectile weight) and greater rate of fire than the american .50 BMG. Yet I have the impression that in AH it seems much weaker than .50 cal.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
2Cool
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"It isn't allways bein' fast or even accurate that counts; it's bein' willing."
[This message has been edited by 2Cool (edited 10-30-2000).]
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I would suggest that you visit the sites that hooligan has mentioned. He has done a lot of research on the subject. There really is no armor that an AP/I round will not penetrate at any angle less than 45 degrees or so.
As Holligan says... We need to up the power of all the MG's to compensate for the lack of damage points and incenderary effects in AH. certainly 10-30% or so would give us more realistic results compared to the cannon in WB. As more realistic effects are added the power can be re-evaluated.
Might be nice to see a few more DHogs around eh?
fishu... no one said anything about 50mm of armor and late war jap planes did indeed have armor and self sealing tanks. I would suggest that you do a little bit of research before posting to avoid bi-lingual ignorance.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
I would suggest that you visit the sites that hooligan has mentioned. He has done a lot of research on the subject. There really is no armor that an AP/I round will not penetrate at any angle less than 45 degrees or so.
As Holligan says... We need to up the power of all the MG's to compensate for the lack of damage points and incenderary effects in AH. certainly 10-30% or so would give us more realistic results compared to the cannon in WB. As more realistic effects are added the power can be re-evaluated.
Might be nice to see a few more DHogs around eh?
fishu... no one said anything about 50mm of armor and late war jap planes did indeed have armor and self sealing tanks. I would suggest that you do a little bit of research before posting to avoid bi-lingual ignorance.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 10-30-2000).]
I hope you're not talking about comparison between Hispano/M2 and .50 caliber, because that sort of raise would up .50 caliber next to MG151/20 and ShVAK...
BUT how about decrease of Hispano/M2 to more realistic levels with MG151/20 and ShVAK?
I surely do believe that Hispano/M2 is over twice better than other two. (..not)
That gun simply can't be 37mm AP gun and 30mm HE gun same time..
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And while you're at it, decrease the lethality of the 109's flying with under wing gunpods along with the 30mm cannon!!!
They make the 1C guns look like paper spit wads in comparison.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
And while you're at it, decrease the lethality of the 109's flying with under wing gunpods along with the 30mm cannon!!!
They make the 1C guns look like paper spit wads in comparison.
-Westy
and while you're at it, I think that spitfire with 2 hispanos does alot more..
My own experiences after flying 109s with gondoles for buff hunting and spitfires...
With Spitfire I've managed to kill buffs on one pass, just blows up the whole buff.. or wing snaps off.. but no other damages made before.
With 109 and all the possible armament (3x20mm or 2x20mm and 1x30mm) I've just managed to hurt them on first pass and luckily only managed to blow them up.
Usually I see nice smoke trails after first pass.. (I did recently use 109 with 3x20mm, I smoked B-26s both fuel tanks in right wing and its engine.. GREAAAT.. and just in last flight with spitfire I blew b17 up to sky high with 30 used rounds)
I might also add here that I shoot from close distance with 109s..
30mm seems more like toy to me against buffs.. its nothing but crap beyond 300 yards and when it hits buffs, I don't see much happen to buff even if one area gets hit by 3 30mm..
so far i've need at least 5 hits of 30mm into buff to bring it down... (I'd think that 3-4 would be enough in stabilizers)
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Buff hunting? I'm refering to "pilots" flying these stacked and loaded 109's in low alt (20,15k and much less) furballs against other fighters.
They are UBER! And as when looked at in a holistic package point of view they are over modelled! There is next to no FM penalty and they are instant death. Even I replicated the silliness using a 109-G6. I found that the plane still climbs and turns like a dream in spite of all that weight and drag from the "death-pods" slung out underneath each wings.
I think gun pods should be disabled in the arena and used in special events or else only let them be effective against bombers.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-30-2000).]
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It's the trajectory and potetial for destuction combined. Search your feelings Luke, you know it's true.
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SageFIN
"The wolves are gathering, the stars are shifting...
come, join us in the hunt!"
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Yes, please take all the cannon off the ME109 and give it only 7.9mm MG. It is terribly uber, and there is no way a GE plane should have any kind of respectable firepower. It also takes way too much damage. 1 near miss should easily disable this thing. As it is, it takes over 2 or 3 hits to blow it up. Something must be done to stop this menace.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Hi
If certain 109s with pods are being used a lot and sucessfuly vs fighters, then there is something very wrong with the gunpods FM. Many LW pilots simply refused to fly with the damn things on later 109Gs.( but of coure you could see this as just another one of my useless pilots ac bigtoes)
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Actually those pods do affect quite seriously in the performance of Me109, but it does NOT mean that you're carrying 1000kg bomb underneath you.
no no no...
I can see very well nose heavyness and poorer climb rate with pods in any of the 109s, which for I use pods only if I have to hunt buffs in 109.
I prefer 109 without pods, because then I have lighter controls over it and it climbs better.
I wonder where from you guys get the idea that 109 should be like a rock with pods, I really doubt the thing was this.. it was just that pods made the thing nose heavy according to the real pilots and decreased performance due to weight.
and FM penalty was added to 109 in the beta already, as I remember Pyro stating so.
But well.. let's remove all guns like Raubvogel suggested, because theres no way that 109 was a great fighter.
Wake up guys, Me109 is one of the best fighters of World War II.
Also use of gunpods in AH does not risk your life as it does in real life, where you try to get your plane to be as good as you can have it. (in real life, its one life.. in AH, its multiple lives)
Ok.. now when we're at it, let's take a look at Typhoon and its 2000lb bomb load FM.....
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Mav, you and I won't live that long.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I'm pretty sure Pyro has stated before that the US M2 50cal MGs are firing API ammo.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Fishu, I'm not saying the 109 is the worste figther in WWII. It was one of the best, only one of two basic fighters the Germans used anyway.
But the point is even with the 1C cannon I at least get the sound of multiple pings when I die. With the UBER 109 BFG20/30 guns all I hear os the start fo a ping, like this; "pi____ <KaBoOom>" and I'm dead, back at the tower. No damage. Complete obliteration every time. And this all occurs in slow "Zeke territory" turn fighting.
Something's porked!
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
Fishu, I'm not saying the 109 is the worste figther in WWII. It was one of the best, only one of two basic fighters the Germans used anyway.
But the point is even with the 1C cannon I at least get the sound of multiple pings when I die. With the UBER 109 BFG20/30 guns all I hear os the start fo a ping, like this; "pi____ <KaBoOom>" and I'm dead, back at the tower. No damage. Complete obliteration every time. And this all occurs in slow "Zeke territory" turn fighting.
Something's porked!
-Westy
Could you take a contact on that pilot who does that.. I'd really like to have a discuss with him and lend his cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I see MG151/20 like bad joke against bombers compared to Hispano or M2.
On fighters from close I don't see that much difference (within 200 yards) but at long ranges Hispano is pure .. BS for an AP round that I can't imagine MG151/20 doing.
One of the greatest things with 1 cannon is that the controls are adjusted right; controls smoothly and I have achieved few times 13 shots / per kill rate, though, thats been somewhat close distance and well placed shots. (times when I've been on my best with gunnery)
I still can't say that MG151/20 would do any 1 hit miracles... still can see bunch of hits and plane departing one part, not blowing..
Last time when I blew plane up with 109, it was with 109G-2 with pods.. he took bunch of hits and departed.
Other thing is that I believe you still don't hear all those pings..
Sometimes I don't even hear a ping but I hear plane depart.
Of course, if it was 30mm 109, I don't wonder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) that thing should do one hit kills of fighters.
Also it has a bug like with 37mm when firing in bursts.
You fire one or two shots, ease trigger for very short time and then pull again, you'll shoot 2-3 30mm rounds *same* time. (now if that bunch hits, you're dead for sure)
Probably low rate of fire problem.
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Fishu, ask Aper.
Always managed to pop me with 1 or 2 cannon rounds when he's fought me, even during a snap shot. (and carries gondolas, least I think he still does)
Least agains't a C-hog I get to ride it down with a tail or wing gone.
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AlI I can say is I noticed this is one topic that NathBDP is conspicuously absent from (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I must be loading different cannon. If it's 30mm, maybe, and that would be fairly realistic. But, I've never killed anything with 1 ping from a MG151. Guess I need to bribe my armorers to load me some of the good stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The gondolas do affect performance, but I have no idea if its accurately modeled.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Fishu wrote:
I see MG151/20 like bad joke against bombers compared to Hispano or M2.
On fighters from close I don't see that much difference (within 200 yards) but at long ranges Hispano is pure .. BS for an AP round that I can't imagine MG151/20 doing.
You seem to think that Mg151 rounds should have comparable trajectories to Hispano rounds. Do you have any information at all to support this statement? For the third time, please show it to us. Surely these strong opinions you hold are based upon something other than wishful thinking on your part.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
Fishu wrote:
You seem to think that Mg151 rounds should have comparable trajectories to Hispano rounds. Do you have any information at all to support this statement? For the third time, please show it to us. Surely these strong opinions you hold are based upon something other than wishful thinking on your part.
Hooligan
Don't exagerate ok?
I never have said that MG151/20 should be same as Hispano, but currently I think that Hispano/M2 has way bigger advantage than should.. (or other cannons in greater disadvantage than should.. either ways)
Also, I can't show everything that I know when I do.
Like those some Ju-88 A-4's with 20mm cannon.. I got that of lend books from library and I necessarily won't even find those anymore from library because someone other might have those. (and I am too lazy to go to library every second day just to find the book where from I found something interesting)
So.. if you have library at your home, be glad.. but I surely don't have personal library at my home...
please, can I ask you to look this from other perspective?
Let me tell one funny thing about good data;
when I published my guns test on p51 drones, one guy said those testings weren't scientific and blaablaa other (and I had done it with each gun for tens of times.. up to maximus boredomis).
Of course this guy did NOT forget to mention his hangar testings, which are even less scientific when there isn't damage from penetration. (aka Ostwind / Pz-IVh vs. hangar or tank, which kills hangar better and which kills tank better..)
Which he pulled out after I mentioned about his 'unscientific' testings..
a little bit two faced situation.
IMHO, that is the best way so far to test gun lethalities and also good when those drones won't drop out from the sky after damage. (..and also blast / penetration effects are also taken into count)
/ignore bullcrap
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The problem Fishu is that we do have personal experience or a personal library, with information that does support the current gun model.
Everything I have seen supports the lethality differential between the Hispano Mk.II and the MG151/20. In fact, in the past, I have presented detailed data and calculations to you that proved it. So has Hooligan.
Your the one that is saying its wrong, so its up to you to present evidence that proves the error in some way.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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One way to test guns is the way we did it in WB... Go to the training arena and fly straight and level. Have another guy get behind u with the gunset being tested and fire very short bursts (short as possible).. Wait for damage and repeat untill plane dies. let him take off again and repeat. If you start right over the "targets" field you should get to shoot him down 4-5 times. look at your rounds fired and hit % (can you do this is in AH?) and see how leathal the gunset was or how tough the plane was or whatever by dividing by the number of "kills". Very long process.
lazs
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Fishu wrote:
but currently I think that Hispano/M2 has way bigger advantage than should..
We all know that is what you think. However you have never presented any supporting evidence whatsoever that I have seen.
At this point I am fairly certain that you know next to nothing. But believe me, I would be overjoyed if you actually found some interesting and worthwile data and posted it here. In the meantime listening to you whine and make excuses is tiresome.
Hooligan
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I have to agree with Fishu
From my point of view counting damage like:
1hit -nothing
2hits - wingtip gone
etc
and (or)
Hispano - 100% lethality
MG-151 - 70% Hispano etc
are very artificial and wrong ways.
First of all we need to create all classes of ammo: AP, API, HE, etc.
Then we need to explore all types of explosives and calculate their weight-energy factors.
Then we need to calculate explosive/armor penetrating/incendary effects for all types of ammo considering brisant effects, secondary fragmentation effects etc etc etc
Then we need to rework completely damage model to implement decreasing of airodynamic quality/lift/max G limit/max speed limit etc of damaged parts of the plane
After that we'll get right lethality for all kinds of guns
Without it we should consider equal lethality of all 20mm cannons. (BTW these cannons are already different in rate of fire, ballistic and may be dispersion)
We'll get much less mistake with this statement(equal lethality) than counting damage like:
2 Hispano hits = 3 MG-151 hits = wingtip gone
IMHO
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Aper:
Here are some projectile characteristics.
.50 BMG API 42.9g, 929m/sec
151 20mm APHE 115g, 705m/sec
HS 20mm APHE approx 130g, 880m/sec
KE values per round and approx armor penetration at short range
.50 18.5 KJ 25mm
151 28.6 KJ 25mm
HS 50.3 KJ 45mm
Note that the 151 AP round is much closer to the .50 AP round in penetration and Kinetic energy than the Hispano round. Should we treat the 151 and .50 as identical?
Hooligan
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Note that the 151 AP round is much closer to the .50 AP round in penetration and Kinetic energy than the Hispano round. Should we treat the 151 and .50 as identical?
Sure Hooligan
At short range all .50 , 20mm MG-150 and 20mm Hispano API rounds penetrate the armor plate killing pilot. They are all identical in that case.
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hooligan
i believe the problem lies in the fact that the hispano currently has as good of HE explosive power as the Mg151
I agree with you that the hispano round has superior ballistics and armor penetrating capability to the MG151, and that the round should fly faster and straighter, and be far superior in anti armor operations.
However, the hispano cannon did NOT use the HE ammo very often because of severe gun jamming problems encountered when using it, and when it WAS used, the hispano cartridge was not as explosively charged as far as I know.
So what does this mean? To me, it means the MG151 should be a much better Buff killer (since thats what the germans wer eprimarily doing) and the hispano should be great at anti armor operations (see hurricane IIc)
From what I know, the rounds used in hispano cannon were by and large AP only, not the mix found in aces high today.
If there are AP rounds in the MG151 bullet stream, i would prefer they be removed and only a HE round be used, since that is what was typically used.
The end result will be typhoons being used to kill panzers (great!) and 190s being used to kill b17s (also great!). Funny how if the game was setup realistically, engagements would tend to be mroe realistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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aper:
Hmmmmm a minute ago you seemed to want the modelling of some 20mms changed. But now you have apparently changed your mind since they are "identical" at short range.
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Zigrat wrote:
So what does this mean? To me, it means the MG151 should be a much better Buff killer (since thats what the germans wer eprimarily doing) and the hispano should be great at anti armor operations….
Well I certainly agree with that. But I also think that round-for-round the Hispano shells should be very good at killing fighters also.
There is a declassified document: “The development of German Aircraft Armament during WWII”, which was written for the US just after the war by a LW colonel. Penetration of the German cannon is not mentioned even in passing anywhere in the document. The Germans were obsessed with explosive content and a lot of effort was spent trying to get enough explosive on target to reliably down a US 4-engined bomber.
Conversely in the declassified books by the Bureau of Ordnance and the Rand Corp (respectively) “The Machine Gun” and “Aircraft Vulnerability in WWII”, they seem to talk a lot about killing fighters and projectile penetration, with very little attention given to explosive content.
I believe that because fighters are relatively compact and that there is little room within them that does not contain components that are absolutely necessarily, they are very susceptible to critical hits. A round that penetrates to and kills the pilot, ammunition box or engine finishes the aircraft. Bombers on the other hand, have multiple engines and pilots, better fire retardant systems, etc…. and should be much harder to take down with a single hit in the right place. Given what they were shooting at, the Allied emphasis on penetration/critical hits and the German emphasis on explosive effects/structural failure make perfect sense to me.
I don’t really think the AH damage model takes all of this stuff into account so we are left with a sort of hybrid damage system which is probably skewed towards giving correct results vs. fighters.
As far as the belting of Mg151 goes, I have an English translation of a German document which gives 20mm belting information. On the Western front it was:
1-Mine
1-Incendiary Tracer
1-Armor Piercing Incendiary
Now I have no doubt that belting was different for different Fighter Groups and missions etc… Nonetheless, I believe that it is representative. I believe that AP must have been considered useful for shooting Allied fighters because the German Fighters weren’t typically used for Ground Attack, and they certainly weren’t hunting Sturmoviks over France.
As AH progresses I hope we see more sophisticated damage modeling, penetration effects and fire. At that point we would have the ability to change which rounds were belted and possibly even good reasons to depending upon what we were hunting.
Let me know if you want me to email the ammo belting information to you. It’s about 800K of scans.
Hooligan
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Westy said:
AlI I can say is I noticed this is one topic that NathBDP is conspicuously absent from.
I don't see any problems with any of the guns, its just that jamming/overheating of the barrels etc isn't modeled, which gives the advantage to hispanos.
That and the fact that I don't have much info on aircraft weaponry from WW2.
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
hooligan
i believe the problem lies in the fact that the hispano currently has as good of HE explosive power as the Mg151
I agree with you that the hispano round has superior ballistics and armor penetrating capability to the MG151, and that the round should fly faster and straighter, and be far superior in anti armor operations.
However, the hispano cannon did NOT use the HE ammo very often because of severe gun jamming problems encountered when using it, and when it WAS used, the hispano cartridge was not as explosively charged as far as I know.
So what does this mean? To me, it means the MG151 should be a much better Buff killer (since thats what the germans wer eprimarily doing) and the hispano should be great at anti armor operations (see hurricane IIc)
From what I know, the rounds used in hispano cannon were by and large AP only, not the mix found in aces high today.
If there are AP rounds in the MG151 bullet stream, i would prefer they be removed and only a HE round be used, since that is what was typically used.
The end result will be typhoons being used to kill panzers (great!) and 190s being used to kill b17s (also great!). Funny how if the game was setup realistically, engagements would tend to be mroe realistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think you said just that what I've been trying to say...
this discussion in UBB is hard if you need to bring in some library with you..
WHY do we need some proves of this and that, why can't we just be civilized and discuss of it instead of flaming other of having this and that prove with him.
heh.. or is it just to make the guy look even more wrong when you don't have any better ideas left?
This would work, because when you think logically.. you'll find out that not many will have needed books or sources for everything, even if the guy might had seen those 'proves' somewhere elsewhere but can't obtain the source to prove it.
Well.. hooligan, show me YOUR proves, let me use the same method (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and funked.. I know you're lucky one to have library with you.. so don't help hooligan okey? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fishu:
Here is some information that I based my arguments on.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/b-20mmTabelle4.jpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/b-20mmTabelle4.jpg)
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm)
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm)
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/minetraj.jpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/minetraj.jpg)
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/gebelt.jpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/gebelt.jpg)
This site has some useful general information about Aircraft weapons.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fr.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fr.html)
Your turn. And saying that you are “too lazy” is not an acceptable answer.
Hooligan
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"I don't see any problems with any of the guns"
Sorry Nath. Of course you wouldn't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) You're the one of the 109 pilots I'm refering to that fly the 109 like a Zeke even when you're loaded down to the gills in ammo and gunpods.
A 109 with 30m and extra gun-pods = the "no ping" wonder destroyer.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
Your turn. And saying that you are “too lazy” is not an acceptable answer.
Eh, I go to library perhaps once in 1-2 months and it is totally in another direction where I usually travel.
I don't own car either..
...and would I really get some book from there just to prove for someone in internet something, which would have no use at all?
Now, as you've given "some kind" of proves, we'll go into the second part of the "proof" case which I've stumbled into when I've had proves.
How can I really believe those are correct information?
There is been alot propaganda with these things and might be test by people who would maybe tweak the numbers a bit for their favor... <include other suspicious talking here>
Now.. mr. Hooligan, are you begining to get the point?
Of course theres little mistake here, of course you have "some sort" of diagrams for the guns because you did yourself ask me to prove something.. but when it would be about something else, it could be different and you couldn't put up anything worth trusting. (or you could of course show fakes..)
Okey.. there were few examples for the "proof" - case.
westy,
You were earlier telling about Aper right?
My experiences of Aper is that hes lagging often and warping sometimes (the times i've encountered him.. and I did actually see lag last time I killed him about week ago)
Another thing that I've noticed is that if you get hit by one 30mm, you might not hear ping at all.. just crunch and there you go..
But I have only once got 1 hit kill in 109 with 20mm's.. very tough lead shot on a fast speed 190 which was turning and I had luckily almost top hit on him, I saw at least or only one hit through my instruments and he blew up (and I wondered did he blow up of that only)
Must been a 20mm into cockpit.
talking of this, sometimes I don't get pilot kill at all when I strafe the cockpit like mad, sometimes it comes with hit in elsewhere on the plane..
i go for cockpit sometimes.. specially I like that spot against bombers if I don't have Hispanos with me.. got to use up the lack of power in the pilot
In fighter I rarely hear more than couple pings and I have been torn into pieces (and sometimes trying to verify amount of hits by asking, when I think that it couldn't been couple hits)
In bombers I usually hear sheetloads of pings, long after I've got killed.
Any plane can turn like zeke actually...
You have right amount of speed, trimmed up.. you pull and plane makes one sick instant turn.
I think problem lies with too good trims and in blackout modelling.
it seems that you could in theory pull 15G turn and still have control over the plane in AH. (if plane wouldn't break up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
In one version P-51's did these instant turns constantly.. (even worst than 109 that ive seen)
hmm.. maybe I'll quit writing any further so I don't totally mess up myself and my talking.
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Ever notice that on certain subjects there is a "group or community knowledge" thing, where people say that "everyone knows that..."
And its especially prevalent when the discussion about German vs. Allied cannons comes up.
Here's a few from this thread, but I'm not picking on anyone in particular, because you see these "facts" stated frequently.
the hispano cannon did NOT use the HE ammo very often because of severe gun jamming problems encountered when using it, and when it WAS used, the hispano cartridge was not as explosively charged as far as I know.
Urban myth. Do some serious research on armaments, and in particular the Hispano. Yes, in its early developement the Hispano had jamming problems, but it was solved by both the British and Americans by using different approaches. Just like many other pieces of equipment we use in AH, that had teething problems but were solved.
And while AP ammo was more common during the early parts of the war, due to its ease of manufacture, HE ammo did exist and became more prevalent as the war went on. I have seen pictures that show mixed AP/HE belted ammo for the Allied, and I have personally held in my hand WWII-era 20mm Hispano HE ammunition that was being demanufactured/recycled. Plus I can provide sources of information on the HE ammunition and so can Hooligan.
From what I know, the rounds used in hispano cannon were by and large AP only, not the mix found in aces high today.
Again, see above. Where exactly have you gotten this proof? Honestly, I would love to see anything that proves this. But everytime I ask, people just say "I heard" or "I know".
If there are AP rounds in the MG151 bullet stream, i would prefer they be removed and only a HE round be used, since that is what was typically used.
Another patently false urban myth. Even during the great bomber offensives on the western front in the summer of 1944, the Germans used mixed AP/HE/Mine belting of ammunition. Its quoted on Gustins page (which is linked earlier in the thread), from a german source. And if you look at the same source which gives the specific belting used at the same time on the Eastern front, you will see even more of an emphasis on AP and AP/HE due to the type of combat prevalent there.
Also, lets consider that the Summer of 1944 in the ETO (when the highest proportion of anti-heavy bomber operations took place) did not represent the war as a whole for Germany and German armaments.
What about 1939 to 1943? What about BOB, the Channel Front Battles, the North African Campaign, and the entire Eastern Front? Was the emphasis during all those times exclusively anti-heavy bomber operations? Of course not. So do you honestly think that the Germans used exclusive HE or Mine shell loadouts during those periods?
Aces High will eventually represent the entirity of WWII (currently 1942-1945). So to me at least, the ammunition should represent the range of possibilities of the entire war.
Cannons and Lethality is a hobby of mine. I have done alot of research on the subject, but admittedly, I don't know as much as Hooligan. But I can definitely say that I have gotten past the "I heard" or "We all know" stage, and gotten down to looking for facts.
I mean, we all know Germany lost the war, so they should have crappy planes and guns, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion,
From that what I've read, Spit V and IX still had somewhat bad reliability problems with the Hispano Mk.II, where Spit II had even worse problems with earlier Hispano.
I remember reading that Hispano Mk.IV was first more reliable version of Hispano and it was done later than IX or V.. (I think that Tempest and Spit XIV had Hispano IV)
I read these stuffs some 4 years ago.. I've been wishing for long time that I could find that source on my hands again.
There was alot different versatiles of planes and blaablaa story for each.
I think there read also that Mg151/20 was alot more reliable than any Hispano until Mk.IV (though, not sure if I read this from another source)
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Yes Fishu I get the point. The point is you don't really know anything and you can't show us any data or tell us your sources because you have nothing to show.
Hooligan
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Face it fishu.... all german ammo and especially the mg 151, were weak, slow, unreliable pissants. i have seen several quotes that say those exact things and it is well documented in books that i don't have but are at my local library. I would post those quotes but the library is out of my way and besides.... everyone but you feels the same way. Many U.S. pilots that were hit by german rounds reported a nasty welt and large bruise that was very close to the injuries sustained in a dirt clod throwing fight.
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
Face it fishu.... all german ammo and especially the mg 151, were weak, slow, unreliable pissants. i have seen several quotes that say those exact things and it is well documented in books that i don't have but are at my local library. I would post those quotes but the library is out of my way and besides.... everyone but you feels the same way. Many U.S. pilots that were hit by german rounds reported a nasty welt and large bruise that was very close to the injuries sustained in a dirt clod throwing fight.
lazs
I have never said that I have trouble with german or russian guns...
Actually, I find those the best guns for the gaming fun, because they don't kill instantly on one hit.
Also, if we come to this, we could begin wondering why does Hispano, which I hear alot that it used AP mostly, does damage like HE with the penetration of AP?
I am not looking for making Hispano weaker than MG151/20 or ShVAK, but making Hispano bit weaker, when it still would be far more powerful than those two above.
Right now, I feel those Hispanos somewhat super for a 20mm when compares to any other 20mm cannon in the game..
The thing is, that AP shouldn't rip wings off by one hit unless it hits fuel tank or weak point, it shouldn't happen constantly (definetly not from above.. from right behind it might really cut structure and collapse wing)
If HE manages to get through the wing from above, I figure that it would do more damage because it won't just go through, but blast off some surrounding with it.
Of course AP round does nice big hole too if it has correct shape and velocity, I am not that dumb that I'd think it would make nice 20mm hole into everything what it goes through.
Okey, you won hooligan.. I am not THAT serious as you are.
I am not gonna waste my time looking for proves everyday for every topic that I happen to read.
I don't talk bullcrap, not my style.. if you still can't discuss about something without proves.. please, ignore my posts.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 11-02-2000).]
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Fishu = (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/cwm14.gif) & (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net/ukliam2.gif)
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fishu... I will drop down to your level and tell you how it "feels" to me. the HS feels like a pretty good cannon. All the cannon feel pretty good to me. I do have proof tho that the HS is NOT A ONE PING KILLER. What proof? I got a whole bunch... probly about 20%, assists using nothing but the 4 cannon C HOG... If it were a 1 ping killer, I would have..... Zero assists. Now, it just doesn't get any simpler than that does it? Maybe the Spit is easier to kill with than the lag but I can't tell..
lazs
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Give me a few hours and I can provide you with film of 100 rounds of Hispano going into a B26 fuselage, with the B26 flying away happily. Hispanos are fine guys, and they already toned them down once.
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
fishu... I will drop down to your level and tell you how it "feels" to me. the HS feels like a pretty good cannon. All the cannon feel pretty good to me. I do have proof tho that the HS is NOT A ONE PING KILLER. What proof? I got a whole bunch... probly about 20%, assists using nothing but the 4 cannon C HOG... If it were a 1 ping killer, I would have..... Zero assists. Now, it just doesn't get any simpler than that does it? Maybe the Spit is easier to kill with than the lag but I can't tell..
lazs
Never said that it does everytime with one..
in testings it does kills per 1-3 hit or damages plane so that it surely won't fly long (read; ditch or landing with no engine and couple other parts)
while other cannons has *2 this.
with other cannons 1 hit kill was extremely rare and those started from +2 hits... while average were around 4 or more.. with hispano average was 2-3. (testings within 480 yards)
and this also means that you don't spray the plane all around...
but with random spray & pray tactic HS/M2 owns.
though, my main grip is *not* against fighters... in testings I was satisfied with results within 300-400 yards where all cannons were fairly much the same.
though, at extreme range, other cannons are almost nothing but Hispano still does 1-2 hit kills.. (all on my own experiences as the HS shooter)
Okey.. then we go to my main worry which is lethality of HS against bombers.
Against bombers Hispano is very very lethal while MG151/20 or ShVAK damages alot before anything nasty comes.
Often I tend to blow up the bombers with HS, but with MG151/20 or ShVAK, they get smoky first and lose some parts until they finally lose something vital.
I just wonder this; if Hispano is AP.. it goes nicely for fighters, but what it does for bombers that HE doesn't?
I've seen pictures of B-17s that has got back home from mission after MG151/20 hits.. and I can say those are NOT small holes for a one 20mm hit. You could put your head through the hole.
Now.. what does HS with AP round do?
blow up even bigger hole? with what?
(and blow up with what? with some sonic shock eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I think I'll do testings with these bombers.. as I find someone to do job of the target.
Main arena experience so far is that I prefer 2xHS more than 3xmg151/20 on 109. (or 2x20mm and 1x30mm)
other thing here is also that I tend to shoot buffs from very close range in 109 or 190, while in HS armed planes I tend to spray from longer range and break off if I don't see a chance going right by the bomber.
Though, this lethality effect has me confused anyway;
In PZ-IV H I often shoot other tanks just couple times from 3.5k (or something like that.. hard to know when no scaling in the gunsight beyond 3.2-3.4k)
but when I am right next to them, I might hit them even 10 times.. (I got at least one if not two films of this that I remembered to film)
it has made me wonder if gun lethality chart has turned around so that long range shots actually counts damage as close range and close shots as long range hits.
In planes this is also seen.. I was amazed when I hit 109 4 times with f4u 1C at range of 200 yards, which of 2-3 hit the wing and two somewhere else.. and i was awarded with assist after other guy shot the wing i had hit.
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fishu... I have done guns testing in the other sim.. it is a long process. i will be glad to test gunsets with you in the training arena if you hail me when i am up. You can fly a bomber and I will try the fighters or vice versa. We will have to test for more than a couple of hrs tho to get any kind of database but at least we won't be talking about "feel" anymore.
lazs